http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/pornography&masculinity.htm

Porn Clerk experiences

Really interesting stuff from a (I believe) bisexual feminist who was pro-porn but found herself rexamining her beliefs once she began working as a clerk in a porn video store.

Still checking out the first link.

(Edited to fix the link - sorry!)

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: swirrlygrrl ]

The "You are what you eat" one said exactly what I've felt for a long time. I just couldn't express myself.

Both that and the true porn clerk stories were amazing. I'm still reading the porn clerk stories.

I think something really good about the first article, though, is that it acknowledges that we often get turned on by what we can analytically know is degrading. I know I've been turned on by pornography that is absolutely horrible when it comes to the underlying assumptions about women's and men's roles in sexuality and in life. Why is it that I ALSO wait for the male climax as the big turn on part? Why is it that before having an orgasm, the porn tape is fascinating and a turn on, but after an orgasm, it just looks nasty, degrading, and a turn-off?

I don't think that's just an issue for men, even though they are the target audience and they are by far the most frequent consumers of porn. It's an issue for women too, or at least for me - why do I get turned on by this stuff sexually that is so utterly offensive emotionally, spiritually, and mentally?

I'm sad to say (IMO)that as a whole, the typical genre of straight porn, feeds an insecurity in men. (I'm only targeting this, because my knowledge of the other genres is limited)
I found it most appealling in my teens, when I was insecure. (was? )
Watching the woman being dominated, or begging for it, or etc. etc. was a self assuring thing. It was easy to watch in a voyeuristic, detached, safety.
The possibility that it is being watched by people that "don't know any better" is a sad thought. True Porn Clerk Stories are a perfect example of some of those people. (I just read that through...I will be a regular reader of that from now on) I think the thing that really started to turn me off the hard-core stuff was the look in the eye of a lot of these girls. I'm an "eye man" love em. When you see enough pain, or fear or shame in the eyes of these girls, it's hard to be aroused.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Heavy_Equipment ]

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To point out patterns of male dominance in socialization and behavior is not to say every man is a rapist. Let me repeat: I am not asserting that every man is a rapist. Now that I have said that, I can be sure of only one thing: Some men who read this will say, “This guy is one of those radical feminists who believes every man is a rapist.”

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Women must remain less-than-human if pornography is to work.

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I read Jensen's article several days ago and it kept ruminating in my mind. I came back to the article and read it several more times. I wished I was back at school so I could bring the article into class to discuss it. The quotes above stood out for me although every time I read it I see something else. The other thing that resonated with me was that this was "mainstream" porn with some of it specifically marketed toward hetro couples (though they fell into the same old formula). Some people go around scratching their head's saying "I brought my kids up in an enlightening way and yet they act differently." People are influenced to varying degrees by the culture that surrounds us-unfortunately critical analysis is in short supply. Not all people are influenced as much as others, thankfully.

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It’s hard to disagree with the goal of reducing men’s violence, and one can see how as a short-term strategy it might work. But I don’t want to redefine masculinity. I don’t want to identify any set of traits that adhere to being biologically male. I want to get rid of masculinity.

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Very good points.

I just want to emphasize two things here.

First, it is not the sexuality per se that makes porn degrading. I think the author of the linked article made that clear, but I think it needs emphasis. The kind of sex represented by porn is a tiny box drawn over the incredibly vast array of sexualities people actually experience. If some of these were on videotape, it would be very different from the porn we know. I think that's because mainstream culture's representations of sex, from novels to sitcoms to porn, all buy into a single sexist view of sex. So in my view, porn is not the problem, but one symptom.

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I am not telling women how to feel or what to do. I am not accusing them of having false consciousness or being dupes of patriarchy. I am not talking to women. I am speaking to men. Women, you have your own struggles and your own debates among yourselves. I want to be an ally in those struggles, but I stand outside of them.

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Second point I need to make is about women and sex work. Some people (all humans included) think that it is feminist to criticize women for their involvement in porn, and in sex work in general. I like the author of this article's tack, as he makes it quite clear who his focus is on, and does not seem to patronize or judge women for how we survive. I think that it is important to support sex workers, because as long as there is a sex industry, there will be sex workers.

His discussion of the need to eliminate masculinity also reminds me of Gloria Steinem article, I can't remember which one, in which children were asked to check off lists of characteristics that would be desirable in men, then in women, then in people (things like kind, stong, aggressive, etc.), and the outcome was that good men and women were totally different than good people (though I believe the slant was that women were really far off the ideal people mark as compared to ideal men).

Anyways, this whole thing brings up something thats always difficult for me to deal with in talking about raising boys differently (we've done more for this for girls) in that we need to replace this horrible masculinity with something else, that children can't grow in a vaccumm, and getting to that point seems really impossible the way we function now. And I think he hit on why in that we so often dont want to face who we are, what we like and are like. We hit that wall of shame for being turned on by something we intellectually find offesnive and can't move past it. This goes for women too - modern romance novels are filled with strong men taming strong women, showing them how fulfilling it is, sexually and otherwise, to have a man controlling them, and mass woman can't get enough of this stuff. And then there's the "couples" porn described in the article to deal wtih too.

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But the more important reason, I believe, is that at some level everyone knows that the feminist critique of pornography is about more than pornography. It encompasses a critique of the way “normal” men in this culture have learned to experience sexual pleasure -- and the ways in which women and children learn to accommodate that and/or suffer its consequences.

That critique is not just a threat to the pornography industry or to the personal collections that men have stashed in their closets, but to everyone. The feminist critique asks a simple but devastating question of men: “Why is this sexually pleasurable to you, and what kind of person does that make you?” And because heterosexual women live with men and men’s sexual desire, those women can’t escape the question -- either in terms of the desire of their boyfriends, partners, and husbands, or the way they have come to experience sexuality. That takes us way beyond magazines, movies, and computer screens, to the heart of who we are and how we live sexually and emotionally.

That scares people. It probably should scare us. It has always scared me.

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The visceral attacks on feminist critisism of porn is borne out of a need to ignore the deeper issues with porn. It forces pro-porno's to recognize that it is MORE than pornography.

For a long time I felt the need to be pro-porn because of my firm belief in the "whatever floats your boat" philosophy. I figured - porn is actually healthy in many ways, and an interest in it is not a bad thing...

But it always nagged at me. I HATE the fact that my boyfriend uses porn. I convinced myself that it was because of MY insecurity. I convinced myself that I couldn't stand the thought of him getting off to pictures of other women. I convinced myself that being anti-porn (as long as it is relatively mainstream) is a demonstration of insecurity, and is the same thing as being anti-sex.

But I have realized that isn't it. I hate the fact that he uses it because of what it says about HIM. And me, I suppose.

Pretty much the only people who should feel guilty about their sexual desires are pedophiles, rapists/killers/mutilators and people into bestiality, because they all victimize other real live beings.

Porn is just fantasy. What does it say about the people who get turned on by it? That they're human, and that they have sex hormones.

I really don't think the average porn watcher thinks about all the social ramifications and gender issues going on in the movie or pictures. They just see naked bodies getting it on. I think the whole domination/degradation issue says more about the porn makers than the porn consumers. I don't think porn consumption would go down if it was more gender-sensitive.

And I wonder what the author would say about gay porn, and what turns on homosexual men and lesbians? I bet he'd find a lot of dirty talk, degradation and domination in there too, maybe even more than in straight porn. Or does he think it's all about holding hands, cuddling and saying "I love you and respect your feelings"?

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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I'm not pro-censorship. I just wish we lived in a world where porn wasn't made at all.

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rosebuds, what about (what I call) "sex positive" porn? It seems like what you're saying in your post is that it isn't the sex part that bothers you, but how sex is portrayed. Just wondering...

Andy Social, did you read the article? His focus is on het men because that's the bulk of the industry.

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Why should anyone feel guilty about being turned on?

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I really don't think the average porn watcher thinks about all the social ramifications and gender issues going on in the movie or pictures.

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I don't know whether there's a point to arguing about this. If you fell like you prefer an unexamined and unquestioned sexuality, go ahead.

Hate to quote Socrates, but didn't he say "the unexamined life is not worth living?"

As I said in the other thread, I think it is always useful to examine our desires. To find their root, to see if they work for us. And I do mean desires in all senses of the word. In particular because we are so bombarded by constant messages about what our desires should look like.

It's not about feeling guilty for getting turned on. It's WHY images of women as nothing but vehicles for sexual gratification turns us on. That shouldn't be exciting to us. It's damaging and it's not real and it's hurtful to both the people making the movies and the people watching them.

And to me - who grew up thinking that I WAS little more than a vehicle for sexual gratification (no wonder I was so freakin' popular in high school).

How about making your own? The trick is, I think we're so programmed that it's even hard sometimes to do that without mimicking mainstream porn...

But when I figure out how to make fun, hot, sex-positive porn, I'll let you all know.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: adlib ]

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It shouldn't be exciting to us. It's damaging and it's not real and it's hurtful to both the people making the movies and the people watching them.

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Andy, I refer you to an exchange we had from the last porn thread.

ME: And what is going on in relationships where the male's porn consumption goes up dramatically?

YOU: He's not getting enough sex, or else he's not getting the kind of sex he fantasizes about. He's not going to stop being horny just because his partner wants him to. He'll either turn to porn or turn to real women (which opens up the possibility of STDs). He's not going to cut off his balls.

Encouraging this kind of attitude towards sex (like its a commodity that women supply men, rather than an experience the two share equally together), is how porn has been directly hurtful and damaging to you.

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Encouraging this kind of attitude towards sex (like its a commodity that women supply men, rather than an experience the two share equally together)...

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[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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I love porn.

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Why am I not surprised. Men tend to who lack alternatives, experience, or imagination.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]

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As adults can we not discuss the fact that while porn can be an enjoyable aspect of ones sexual life, there are many disgusting images - at least if you're the same sex as the person being degraded...

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...- and there are many young girls, children and even mature women who are NOT willingly doing the things portrayed.

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I already argued in the other porn thread that porn itself isn't the problem. The way the industry is run needs to be drasticly reformed and regulated. Porn and sex workers should have the same rights and protections as other workers.
And more women and pro-feminists should be in positions of control, so there can be better portrayals of gender issues.

Personally I think mainstream culture does far more damage to sexual equality and male/female relationships, with its gender stereotypes and mystification of sex.

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I've always thought that you were for a society of equality Andy Social does that extent to economics only?

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Your last sentence sums up your willingness to have listen,however, so I think I'll pass.

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Your last sentence sums up your willingness to have listen,however, so I think I'll pass.

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ps. if you can read the porn clerk link and some of the descriptions there and not see how that is a problem then you perhaps you need to check your empathy quotient

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I think most porn consumption is over the Internet
and mail order these days anyway, so the jerks who act up at porn stores and peep shows aren't representative of all porn users.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

Such as the scene from "Animal Trainers" which has made me feel sick to my stomache ever since reading about it.

And I don't think I was responsible for kicking you out of anywhere.

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And I don't think I was responsible for kicking you out of anywhere.

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[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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I'm guessing that this billybob character is just another Babbler pretending to be a sexist macho pig, with the implication that any male who likes porn is the same way.

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The more I think about this, the more off-base it sounds.

Andy, if you do not know basic feminist theory on porn, both pro and anti (PRO: Camille Paglia, Susie Bright, etc...ANTI: Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon, etc...), and the various points of contention thereof, you really have no business posting ON A FEMINIST FORUM and expecting everyone to educate you on very complex theory that has taken over two decades to develop. People shouldn't enroll in advanced algebra before they have learned how to add and subtract, either.

You would not expect someone to post on a political forum saying something as sophomoric as "Gee, what is left and right?" or "Gee, why is capitalism not good? Shouldn't people make as much money as they can?" or other simplistic, uneducated statements. Your statements, above, sound as simplistic and uninformed as that to people who have studied feminism.

Further, the fact that you think ITS OKAY to post on a feminist forum without being at least glancingly familiar with feminist theory is insulting to women and sexist IN ITSELF. Feminist theory is as important as any other political theory and is as important to know about. The fact that you somehow think it is NOT, is part of the problem. Not everyone who has a girlfriend or has sex is qualified to discuss feminist theory. Go back to all of the forums, read and learn. Study the articles (did you even read the one at the beginning of this thread???) and read some of the books mentioned in the threads, and get back to us.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: SuperGimp ]

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Andy, if you do not know basic feminist theory on porn, both pro and anti (PRO: Camille Paglia, Susie Bright, etc...ANTI: Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon, etc...), and the various points of contention thereof, you really have no business posting ON A FEMINIST FORUM and expecting everyone to educate you on very complex theory that has taken over two decades to develop.

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You would not expect someone to post on a political forum saying something as sophomoric as "Gee, what is left and right?" or "Gee, why is capitalism not good? Shouldn't people make as much money as they can?" or other simplistic, uneducated statements. Your statements, above, sound as simplistic and uninformed as that to people who have studied feminism.

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Further, the fact that you think ITS OKAY to post on a feminist forum without being at least glancingly familiar with feminist theory is insulting to women and sexist IN ITSELF.

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Thank you for your cooperation.

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[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

Did you read the article at the beginning of this thread or not? How about you START THERE and instead of asking questions of women here, or acting stereotypically masculine with ME, answer the points raised in THE ARTICLE BY ROBERT JENSEN and say why you do or do not agree with him?

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Andy, if you know feminist theory, why did you ask why or how porn was hurtful and damaging?

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Did you read the article at the beginning of this thread or not?

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How about you START THERE and instead of asking questions of women here, or acting stereotypically masculine with ME, answer the points raised in THE ARTICLE BY ROBERT JENSEN and say why you do or do not agree with him?

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Or is it more fun just to start trouble about porn--since you know it will upset feminists here--and it is obviously very important to you personally?

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[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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Just because someone says that all porn is "hurtful and damaging" -- whether they be feminist, Christian, fascist, or whatever -- it doesn't make the opinion true. I prefer to base my opinions on facts instead of simplistic blanket statements.

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Andy's gonna think you're one of those rabid feminists trying to kick him off the thread for disagreeing with you. In numerous posts. That were very long. That side-tracked discussion. Over and over again.

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I'm not starting trouble and I'm not trying to upset anyone. I'm expressing a perfectly valid opinion that's within the boundaries of feminist thought. Just because I don't follow the crowd doesn't mean I'm some sort of sexist pig.

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You keep conveniently ignoring my posts, Andy. As I said before, I'm pro-porn, but I think there are a lot of problems in the industry. For one, like other media, the portrayals of women are hurtful and damaging.

I also think you're totally out of line on this thread.

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My comments are not ignorant or uneducated. As I just mentioned, I have studied feminism. And guess what? I support it.

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You know what, you can take your patronizing, self-righteous snottiness and shove it right up your politically correct ass.

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If you have seen some non-hurtful and non-damaging porn (or better yet, enriching porn) then describe it to us and perhaps it will be discussed.

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Lots of porn is neither damaging nor hurtful. I could provide links to porn sites that I think are neither "damaging nor hurtful" but I'm not going to post porn links here. Besides, we'd probably disagree on whether or not it was d & h. And it seems that a few people here find it hard to disagree without being disrespectful and hurling insults. It's funny, the only other message boards at which I faced the same kind of hostility and anger have been right wing and neo-Nazi/white power ones.

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... In numerous posts. That were very long. That side-tracked discussion. Over and over again.

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It doesn't mean you aren't one either.

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You keep conveniently ignoring my posts, Andy. As I said before, I'm pro-porn, but I think there are a lot of problems in the industry. For one, like other media, the portrayals of women are hurtful and damaging.

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I also think you're totally out of line on this thread.

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Your comments are unhelpful in this space.

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If you support feminism, how about supporting feminists.

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Not "ignorant" or "uneducated". Just insulting, and a weak replacement for an argument.

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So if you want me to stop posting, I'd appreciate not bringing up my name any more. Look at all the time you wasted attacking me instead of arguing (or ignoring) my points.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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Andy, if you do not know basic feminist theory on porn, both pro and anti (PRO: Camille Paglia, Susie Bright, etc...ANTI: Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon, etc...), and the various points of contention thereof, you really have no business posting ON A FEMINIST FORUM and expecting everyone to educate you on very complex theory that has taken over two decades to develop. People shouldn't enroll in advanced algebra before they have learned how to add and subtract, either.

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Andy, if you do not know basic feminist theory on porn, both pro and anti (PRO: Camille Paglia, Susie Bright, etc...ANTI: Andrea Dworkin, Catherine MacKinnon, etc...), and the various points of contention thereof, you really have no business posting ON A FEMINIST FORUM and expecting everyone to educate you on very complex theory that has taken over two decades to develop.

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That kind of peaked me too, Angela N.

But a last word to Andy. It isn't that your opinions aren't welcome but when you've stated them numerous times it might be time to give them a rest and let the discussion move on.

Angela and Skadie, as women, I would think that is not necessary. I should have made that clear. Women have instinctive responses to feminism in a particular way that most men simply do not have. All women have usually thought about it to some degree. Men are far more likely to go "huh?" when asked. That is what I meant--I directed that remark to Andy since "masculinity" is part of the topic of this thread, and he reminded me of what women on the other thread said about having to stop and give a seminar all the time.

Angela, your replies make it clear you have thought deeply on the subject, however.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: SuperGimp ]

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But a last word to Andy. It isn't that your opinions aren't welcome but when you've stated them numerous times it might be time to give them a rest and let the discussion move on.

Rather than tell me you HAVE SEEN non-expoitive porn Andy, I want to know what made it non-exploitive compared to the typical fodder.

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Angela and Skadie, as women, I would think that is not necessary. I should have made that clear. Women have instinctive responses to feminism in a particular way that most men simply do not have. All women have usually thought about it to some degree. Men are far more likely to go "huh?" when asked.

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[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

Likewise, if Adlib or others want to discuss porn from a feminist or legalist perspective, that is one thing...but I confess I am uncomfortable with Andy, as an active and defensive porn user, discussing it. As a FORMER USER I get uncomfortable that his perspective is listened to respectfully. Hence, I was insulting. I apologize to others I may have offended. When Andy can discuss the issue OBJECTIVELY (i.e. when he stops using porn and the people in it for his own enjoyment) then I will listen to him--but right now, he sounds too much like Woody Harrelson to have a stake in an INTELLECTUAL discussion on the issue. He is just plain upset somebody wants to take away his dirty books (or implies they are not progressive). Notice he talks about what they are ABOUT--but I have not heard him once discuss the people who WORK IN THE INDUSTRY and who ARE IN THE PORN. That is the first step in objectification, and it is telling.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: SuperGimp ]

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He is just plain upset somebody wants to take away his dirty books (or implies they are not progressive).
Notice he talks about what they are ABOUT--but I have not heard him once discuss the people who WORK IN THE INDUSTRY and who ARE IN THE PORN.

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Now can you get back on topic and stop attacking me, so I can leave this miserable thread?

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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Andy, you use it, though, don't you? Thats the primary thing. Your concern is not concern for the women in it, your concern is FOR YOU and YOUR SUPPLY. That is my point.

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[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

Early on, you said:

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You would not expect someone to post on a political forum saying something as sophomoric as "Gee, what is left and right?" or "Gee, why is capitalism not good? Shouldn't people make as much money as they can?" or other simplistic, uneducated statements. Your statements, above, sound as simplistic and uninformed as that to people who have studied feminism.

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In fact such threads have often begun on babble, and unless they were started clearly to bait, many leftists here have contributed to them in a spirit of generosity.

Then see the passage angela quotes from your same post, and questions -- take that as copied here.

I see very well why Andy or anyone else would want to keep coming back to this thread to clear his name -- and more latterly than formerly. He was making a simple enough point in noting that there have in the past been a number of pro-porn threads on babble -- there he is right.

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That was some of the most patronizing, prejudicial drivel I have ever read.

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http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/mcelroy_17_4.html

http://www.ffeusa.org/index.html

http://www.porn-library.com/feminism_and_porn.htm

http://www.transfeminism.org/conspire/

http://www.ssspread.com/bestofweb/index.php

Call me quaint, but I am not the one who told someone to shove XYZ up his ass and then unleashed a stream of name-calling, including "sexist", "liar" and "fucking asshole" ...is this a cultural difference? Sorry, but in this neck of the woods, I am the one who was civil, and HE went too far. I would never talk to someone like that, in any context.

SKDADL: I see very well why Andy or anyone else would want to keep coming back to this thread to clear his name.

SKDADL, point taken.

I won't, though.
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EDITED TO ADD: After reading both Skdadl's and Lance's remarks directed at me and defending the person who repeatedly used aggressive and abusive language, I am undoubtedly making the right choice, since I don't get it at all.

Therefore, as Lance suggested, I really do not belong here.
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[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: SuperGimp ]

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Yes or no: Do you use it, Andy? Just answer, and we will let everyone else here decide if I am correct, how's that?

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It encompasses a critique of the way “normal” men in this culture have learned to experience sexual pleasure -- and the ways in which women and children learn to accommodate that and/or suffer its consequences.

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It's a chicken and egg thing, isn't it? Does porn shape sexuality? (That's the side I lean on.) Or does sexuality shape porn? Does one LEARN to experience sexual pleasure from porn? Or does porn just feed the existing mind-frame?

I was about seven years old the first time I saw porn - a magazine I found in the woods near my house. My friends and I crowded around the magazine looking at all the splayed large-breasted women. At an age when kids are discovering the true differences between man and woman and identifying themselves with one side or the other, porn is a pretty solid commentary on where everyone fits in the world - or the world of sex anyway. (Which, you realize pretty early, is somewhat important.)

For a while after that experience I was convinced I'd been born a boy and had somehow changed into a woman. It didn't seem right to me that I fit into that ideal of womanhood. I didn't want to experience life from that place.

Porn has distinctively shaped my sexuality - it was beyond my control.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]

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That "F You, A...hole" retort was oh so masculine.

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The essence of pornography is objectification. And that is why women feel diminished by it.

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http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/mcelroy_17_4.html

http://www.ffeusa.org/index.html

http://www.porn-library.com/feminism_and_porn.htm

http://www.transfeminism.org/conspire/

http://www.ssspread.com/bestofweb/index.php

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EDITED TO ADD: After reading both Skdadl's and Lance's remarks directed at me and defending the person who repeatedly used aggressive and abusive language, I am undoubtedly making the right choice, since I don't get it at all.

Therefore, as Lance suggested, I really do not belong here.

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I suggested nothing of the sort. I wouldn't presume to suggest who belongs and doesn't belong either on babble generally, or on the feminism forum specifically (though I noticed you took it upon yourself to tell A.S. he had 'no business posting on a feminism forum'). I said, and I repeat, that a certain kind of bullying question has no place on babble.

Fair enough - but saying it once is enough, thanks very much. Please don't feel the need to say it again simply because your name was brought up, Andy. Thank you for the links - I'll have a look at them.

And I must say that telling someone they are "full of shit" or to "go fuck themselves" really isn't demonstrative of a genuine wish to debate the merits or flaws of any position.

I don't think that the voices on this thread are "stridently anti-porn". I think they're questioning and curious about porn, it's formulaic nature, and the effect it has on us (as women and men).

I saw porn on the net once - I think it was a series called "Bang Bus" or something like that. It pretty much epitomized what is WRONG with porn.

The series is based on a group of guys who drive around a city in a big van. They pick a woman up off the street and offer her money to perform sexual acts to some guy in the van while being videotaped.

The culmination of each of the "episodes" in this series (and it's disturbing how many episodes there were) is always

1). the woman getting dumped out of the van in a nasty area of town (rather than where they'd picked her up)

2). not getting paid, and

3). the van driving off while they videotape her shocked, fearful, tearful face. The guys in the van are invariably laughing as they drive away.

I found it disgusting and offensive and it made me cry for a world where this is amusing entertainment for some people. It was eloquently explained to me (by a man) that it really is simply a lesson in respecting yourself. Because that woman "didn't respect herself" she found herself the subject of incredible disrespect.

But instead of thinking she got what she deserved, I thought about what kind of world we are in where a lack of respect for yourself entitles others to disrespect you. Where girls are taught from day one to have no respect for themselves. And where we live in a world that strips away a womans self-respect and dignity and subjects her to that kind of treatment.

I thought about the women in those movies. I wonder if anyone in that van, or among the millions of men jerking off to her image, ever thought she might need money to feed her kids. Or to feed herself. Or to go to school. Or to get away from an abusive relationship. I thought if anyone ever worried how she was going to get home when she's been dumped without money miles away in a strange neighborhood.

THAT'S the problem with porn. Although that is a blatant example, to me it's pretty much all the same. You don't give a shit about those women. You can't afford them to be real. Otherwise watching them gag on cocks might not be so enjoyable.

See, Supergimp, we can get an education here, I've just learned how two guys can get on a forum about women and bully and fight with each other about who is more of a feminist!

well done!

edditted fer relly terible spelink

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: angela N ]

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But it seems to me that Andy's position on this thread was essentially - " I like porn. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Don't question me. Fuck you".

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And I must say that telling someone they are "full of shit" or to "go fuck themselves" really isn't demonstrative of a genuine wish to debate the merits or flaws of any position.

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I think they're questioning and curious about porn, it's formulaic nature, and the effect it has on us (as women and men).

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I saw porn on the net once - I think it was a series called "Bang Bus" or something like that. It pretty much epitomized what is WRONG with porn.

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The series is based on a group of guys who drive around a city in a big van. They pick a woman up off the street and offer her money to perform sexual acts to some guy in the van while being videotaped.

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So - let's discuss whether or not you relate to the women in the porn you watch, or whether you try to imagine, for an instant, whether she's enjoying what's happening to her. Let's discuss that for a while.

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Back to the discussion, while I'm (occasionally) looking at porn, I'm being entertained, like when I listen to music or watch TV or a movie. I don't think about the conditions of the actors or the boom mike operator while I'm watching a TV show. I don't think about how much they get paid, whether or not the director yells at them, or if they are addicted to drugs. I'm immersing myself in a fantasy world. When I'm not watching, yes, I think about how the people are treated, and that's why I have repeatedly said that the industry needs to be reformed.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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The series is based on a group of guys who drive around a city in a big van. They pick a woman up off the street and offer her money to perform sexual acts to some guy in the van while being videotaped.Yes, and it's all fake! They are ACTING! It isn't real!

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I don't see how whether or not it is real is of any significance.

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There are a lot worse things on TV and at the movie theatre, with all sorts of violence, gore and abuse.

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I think that Andy was totally out of line, and since he didn't leave, I don't see how there could be any "polite" way to handle him, neither do I particularly think politeness is necessary in this case.

I also agreed with his statement to Andy that he should do a little research before spouting his mouth off (repeatedly). Although I don't think you should have to have a degree or even the "correct" language to talk about this stuff, I think it is necessary when talking about someone else's reality (ie sexism if you're a man) you should approach a discussion with openness and respect. Respect includes at least trying to understand people's reality.

I guess it does just go to show what a difference there is of opinion among women/feminists! I am willing to respectfully disagree with the rest of the fabulous women on this thread and carry on...

[quote]I've responded to those issues, so you must be the one ignoring posts. I've stated numerous times that there are problems with the industry that need to be fixed. I'm tired of repeating myself.[/I]
I'm tired of you repeating yourself too. I was, however, referring to the fact that I keep saying that I am pro-porn (I even have designs on strting my own site), I have been a sex worker in the past and may be again, and I strongly disagree with your analysis of porn. Although you make one or two passing comments about how "bad the industry" is, you continue to defend things which are very sexist. I'm not saying that women who watch that porn are "wrong". If women tried to ignore or avoid every instance of sexism in this world, they would not have very many videos to watch. But a het man watching a sexist porn flick is entirely different.

I have repeatedly explained that although I don't believe that porn itself, or movies about sex, are hurtful and damaging. But given the culture of sexism, most are.

Thanks for the links, but I'm quite familiar with them. Porn and sex work are some of my personal hobbies, and I try to keep track of all the positive porn I can find. But all the examples of great porn I can pull outta my g-string (and it's pretty darn small) don't negate the huge industry that mass-markets sexist het porn.

The fact that women find it hurtful and damamging to them is a clue. Just because not all women are effected does not mean that those who do don't have very valid concerns.

You keep ignoring the complexity of my opinion, and acting like I'm either anti-porn, or I just don't know that a lot of feminists are pro-porn. Er, hello? I'm one of them. I wear an "I Studied Feminism so I could be a Porn Star" pin. So don't condescend.

Now, before I get taken in again by the post-is-too-long-to-read police (too late?), I want to talk about something else.

What do you want in a skin flick?

Call it market research if you will, but I'd like to know what you all would like to see, what you hate, what turns you on
, turns you off, etc.

Personally, I find some sex scenes in pg-13 movies horrible. But that's me.

I like-
Reversals of power/gender roles
Not too much genitals, but lots of skin
Lots of playing with gender, costume- ok I just like to dress up
Real people having hot, real sex

BTW, I'm trying to add as many smilies as I can, in the hopes it will encourage people to read my long post...

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Yes, that might be true, however, it in no way diminishes the idea that the Blow Bang 4 or Bus Bang movies are horrific representations of women... (even if your female friend happens to think otherwise)

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I don't see how whether or not it is real is of any significance.

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(This is good; actually having a serious discussion instead of mud-flinging.)

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Adlib, I seriously don't know what your problem with me is. You just pretty much echoed all of the comments about porn that I have been posting, just in a different way.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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What do you want in a skin flick?

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I guess the first thing I'd like in a skin flick is a guarantee that it was "fairly" made paying good and equal wages using 100% consenting adults.

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What do you want in a skin flick?

Call it market research if you will, but I'd like to know what you all would like to see,

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If you're serious about wanting answers from everyone, I would prefer porn with:

1) Regular women (preferably a bit on the chubby side), instead of skinny model/stripper types with implants, long painted fingernails and lots of makeup and hairspray. I'd personally like the women to have a punk/alternative style, but I know that doesn't appeal to everyone.

I don't care what the men look like because they are just props to me, but the men should be appealing to women viewers.

2) Better acting and more of a story that precedes the sex, instead of jumping right into a scene of full-on banging that leads to another scene of full-on banging.

3) Not much repetitive closeup footage of
penetration (and no anal, especially because the woman usually looks like she's in pain). That gets boring fast, and resembles a medical or animal documentary.

4) Portrayals of strong women who know what they want and get it.

5) Sex scenes that are more realistic, and show it how people really do it (of course there still has to be a little bit of fakery in order to get the shot right for the camera, as with any movie or photo).

6) Sex scenes that don't all start, progress and end the same way.

7) Almost no SM/bondage stuff, especially no hardcore stuff like real whips and clamps. I know a lot of people like that, but it doesn't appeal to me as something to watch, especially if the person gets scratched and/or bleeds. That creeps me out.

8) Men and women who are doing it for fun instead of money, so you can tell they are really enjoying it. Of course they should be paid a fair wage and share in the profits though. I just mean it would be nice if cash wasn't the main motivation.

That's all I can think of for now.

So anyone else have the guts to admit their fetishes on a public message board?

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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I don't think that the voices on this thread are "stridently anti-porn".

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And as an interesting side note, being someone who has serviced a lot of computer systems, the most porn I ever encountered on a computer system was the notebook of a gay woman friend.

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If you take out the nudity and sex, the message would still be bad, but it wouldn't be considered porn and it would be allowed on primetime TV. (e.g., Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire? and The Bachelor)

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So anyone else have the guts to admit their fetishes on a public message board?

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In the 70s, there were a lot more of the "real women" Andy referred to, and more "one on ones." Also the multiples tended to feature one guy and several women, and there always seemed to be the obligatory two women scene.

From the limited porn I see today, the women do look like plastic blow-ups. Even the men seem to have less personality. And the multiples almost always feature one woman with multiple guys. Plus the obligatory two women scene seems to have vanished.

However, asking for better acting and plot seems to be an inherent contradiction. Face it, you're not going to get Al Pacino and Meryl Streep in these videos. And, speaking just for myself, plot strikes me as a waste of time. Borrring!

I'm generalizing, of course. Just as in porn, there are tons of women designers and all sorts of different kind of clothes and conditions.

It’s a valid question to ask what’s wrong with feeling guilty about being turned on? Yes many of us understand the problems with porn and want to MOVE ON from endlessly discussing why humiliating images are harmful. But perhaps we should revisit that.

One of the distinctions between porn and erotica is that porn involves degradation-usually of the woman. I suspect that if Andy viewed a ton of porn that involved the character he identified with on screen ie. the male character- that constantly portrayed that character in degrading, humiliating, scenes, Andy would understand the frustration and anger of some of the posters on this thread.

I initially thought that Jensen could have made a stronger case for his argument. If he used more offensive examples from porn ie. if he used examples of children, animals, or someone who had no choice in the matter, then most of us would have agreed that was a problem. But he used examples from "mainstream" porn that were arguably humiliating. Put yourself in the position of the actress and tell me that is empowering.

Taking a look at the majority of "erotica" on shelves at mainstream bookstores and toy stores, the stories have the same old jist. Helpless female with Cindy Crawford physique and big strong knight in shining armor rescuing her and then it generally goes downhill from that...

Which says to me, that the material still clearly favours men and male dominance when it comes to female sexuality.

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Which says to me, that the material still clearly favours men and male dominance when it comes to female sexuality

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Most porn is sad, pathetic, and sucks on every level but the very basic sexual one. I don't feel at all sorry for the healthy adult women who choose to work in the industry. They're well paid to do what they do, they've made a choice to live affluently working in the sex industry as opposed to living affluently by becoming doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. I feel for the young and vulnerable women who have no sense of self, who may have been abused while growing up, who are feeding a monstrous drug addiction, who are in the sex industry because they're helpless victims of childhood sexual abuse and exploitation, just as I feel for all the impoverished women and children who are forced to work in the garment industry under appalling conditions for slave wages. Or any individual who is abused and exploited by greedy and immoral individuals.

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Helpless female with Cindy Crawford physique and big strong knight in shining armor rescuing her and then it generally goes downhill from that...

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some people are more interested in bashing me than actually discussing the topic of the thread

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JEEEZZUUSSS!

I wasn't bashing you, Andy. This is getting ridiculous. Seems to me things got out of hand. Cyber-hissy-fitting really isn't going to get anyone anywhere...

I don't object to swearing. I just wanted to point out that "Fuck you" really isn't a useful statement to make if you want someone to take your point seriously.

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it's all fake! They are ACTING! It isn't real! If those women really didn't get paid, there would have been hundreds of lawsuits. There are a lot worse things on TV and at the movie theatre, with all sorts of violence, gore and abuse

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I agree that whether it's real or not doesn't make any difference whatsoever. The fact that we enjoy images of the victimization of women is exceedingly disturbing. The fact that we find that exciting doesn't make us BAD people. It's disturbing and worth exploring.

And I don't think I've ever seen anything worse in any movie or other media I've watched. The whole point of this series is to make a game out of treating women like dirt. Its ONLY purpose is to gain amusement from the suffering and humiliation of women. That makes it despicable in my view. It turns my stomach.

Incidentally, I certainly didn't see any disclaimers on the site clearly indicating that none of it was real. How do you know it is fake? The fact that you aren't aware of "hundreds of lawsuits" doesn't mean that it isn't real... In fact the women in question (if they were, hypothetically, real) wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on.

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I'd like to end this assumption that I'm some porn addict who jerks off every day in front of my computer or VCR

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Nobody made that assumption, as far as I can tell. I certainly didn't assume it. In fact, other than speaking up in defence of SuperGimp - who I know to be an intellegent and fair poster on this forum - I didn't say anything else about you.

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When I'm not watching, yes, I think about how the people are treated, and that's why I have repeatedly said that the industry needs to be reformed.

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I agree that we can gain entertainment value from a lot of different places, and that we don't necessarily spend every moment psycho-analyzing ourselves and the reasons we are entertained by so and so.

There's one more thing I felt I needed to challenge, though.

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Your average porn actress/fluffer gets more respect, has more autonomy, and earns a hell of a lot more money.

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I have to disagree. Your average porn actress is a homeless kid or drug addicted woman off the street who needs money for whatever reason. Although the more successful actresses have a big profile, by far they are in the minority.

There are some large production companies who have started marketing themselves as "good to their workers" (in an attempt to address public guilt), the smaller production companies, which are overwhelmingly more prolific haven't been forced to step up to that plate, yet. That's because the cheaper the better. Quantity over quality - the American dream.

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Your average porn actress is a homeless kid or drug addicted woman off the street who needs money for whatever reason.

...AIDS is rampant. ...

And drug use and addiction are huge problems (fostered by the producers).

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Your average porn actress is a homeless kid or drug addicted woman off the street who needs money for whatever reason

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Continuing to drag out the issues of the evils of the porn industry when we're all in agreement of what they are is, IMO, pointless and argumentative. It is not an issue that has gone unaddressed. There is no dispute over what those evils are. If it's an exploitation issue, would not discussions around how labour practices in the industry can be monitored and workers protected be more productive? Perhaps we could engage in a broader discussion of how our warped and demonized sexuality helps the worst of the heterosexual end of the industry thrive, and how the best and most creative aspects of the industry might represent our healthiest attitudes towards sexuality.

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What to do? Speaking out against negative representations is a big step for one. The producers of porn go largely unchallenged-they rake in huge amounts of money-rarely having to answer for the product they put out into society.

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Positive alternatives coupled (no un intended!) with education, then? Can you educate someone out of their affinity for sexist, mainstream porn?

(egad, is it really as hopeless as it feels?)

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

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We should be making non-sexist porn and opening progressive sex shops that carry the good stuff, offer competition where none currently exists

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We should be, but it's not going to happen. Or at least it will have no real impact in the market. The average guy, when thinking of renting a porn movie, will not opt for the "progressive sex shop". The point of dirty movies is that they're, well, dirty (I don't rent these, by the way. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as they say on Seinfeld.)

Just followed this long thread. Not to bring up old business, but it's amazing to be how this Andy Social fellow was browbeaten for upholding a different point of view in a reasonably intelligent manner. Hmmm. The flip side would be guys telling a woman to stay off a sports thread because, as a female, she couldn't possibly know enough about hockey (and hockey tradition). Of course, guys wouldn't do that - it's not P.C.

Personally, I find the never-ending violence in mainstream movies much more troubling and "pornographic" than what's happening in the porno industry (which will always exist and always has). Routinely seeing people blown to smithereens and shot in seemingly realistic ways must have some kind of numbing affect on society, no?

It's true that porn is some kind of reflection of our societal attitudes towards sex. Yet interpreting as a mirror as to how women are regarded and treated in Western society is a mistake. Porn may be widespread, but it is a fringe phenomenon that is not representative of how most men view women (and visa versa). Any suggestion that the worst porn is reflective of the values of men is like saying murder reflects how many people view humankind.

North Americans are always more uptight than Europeans about porn - I can see hints of prudishness behind some of these comments regarding this subject (i.e., admit it, you use porn Andy. Don't you Andy! You bad boy!) Perhaps if we were more relaxed about this stuff, porn would become less offensive. After all, a lot of porn is thrilling to viewers because the worst societal taboos are being broken, e.g. ejaculating on a woman's face, etc. etc. I suspect the more rigid society becomes when it comes to sexual issues (no pun intended), the grosser pornography becomes...

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Just followed this long thread. Not to bring up old business, but it's amazing to be how this Andy Social fellow was browbeaten for upholding a different point of view in a reasonably intelligent manner. Hmmm. The flip side would be guys telling a woman to stay off a sports thread because, as a female, she couldn't possibly know enough about hockey (and hockey tradition). Of course, guys wouldn't do that - it's not P.C

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Actually that's wrong. Check out "guy stuff" in the body and soul forum. NO GIRLS ALLOWED.

As a matter of fact you probably noticed there was some difference of opinion among the female posters as well.

A mistake that is often made on the feminist forum is that if a male poster with a particular point of view is disagreed with by some or even one female poster that that means all women disagree with all men.

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Degrading porn is not a disease. It is a symptom of a greater social disease where sex and sexuality is fine for marketing cars and liquor but too sensitive for kitchen tables and frank discussions

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creative and interesting pornography and erotica.

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