After reading a few threads on your forum I concluded that intelligent life thrives here, not simply imitates it like at so many other forums on the internet.

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After reading a few threads on your forum I concluded that intelligent life thrives here, not simply imitates it like at so many other forums on the internet.

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
Salutations :-)

So, of all philosophers you could dedicate your screen name to, why Rosbepierre?

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Originally posted by oldgoat:
Hello and welcome. We shall endevour to sustain this illusion for as long as possible, no matter how many babblers I have to suspend in the effort!

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Thank you, oldgoat, your statement fills me with a lot a hope, which is more than I can say about Barack Obama's words when he says "Yes, we can."

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500_Apples:...So, of all philosophers you could dedicate your screen name to, why Rosbepierre?

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I wanted to go with Marat but thought his name might give forum members the impression that I was a bloodthirsty leftist come to spam long tracts of violent verbiage. It dawned on me that I may have violated the spirit of Robespierre's oft-quoted slogan Pity is treason in electing not to go with Marat, but I can assure you that I don't waver at all when it comes to that other slogan---the one that refers to kings, priests and intestines.

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Robespierre: a bloodthirsty leftist come to spam long tracts of violent verbiage.

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Originally posted by Robespierre:
I'm an American living in New York City, a socialist, and a modern person in most every other way.

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Marat, or St-Just, would also have been interesting choices.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
We don't have anyone posting from Sao Paolo either - or lots of other big, bustling metropolises.... Indeed, Mumbai would be a plus.

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Originally posted by Robespierre:

I wanted to go with Marat but thought his name might give forum members the impression that I was a bloodthirsty leftist come to spam long tracts of violent verbiage. It dawned on me that I may have violated the spirit of Robespierre's oft-quoted slogan Pity is treason in electing not to go with Marat, but I can assure you that I don't waver at all when it comes to that other slogan---the one that refers to kings, priests and intestines.

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Neat.

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It dawned on me that I may have violated the spirit of Robespierre's oft-quoted slogan Pity is treason in electing not to go with Marat,

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"Pity is treason" is a very vicious, inhumane slogan.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

"Pity is treason" is a very vicious, inhumane slogan.

When Robespierre was guillotined without trial, he may have had second thoughts.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Love is weak...

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I know, so true. Take remind, for example. I posted a link to a video that she disliked (the name of) and she showed up at my igloo with a flamethrower!

It's okay, though. I'm used to battling on multiple fronts. I couldn't find a U.S. election button that I liked so I made one for myself...

But, when I wear it I get bad-mouthed by Obama Stepford Wives* and McCain zombies alike.

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Originally posted by Sven:
Hey, isn't a thread title with a babbler's name in it against babble policy???

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Actually there's a variety of Becel margarine that is white sold here in Quebec, so maybe those rules have been relaxed a bit.

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Quebec set to allow yellow margarine http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2008/07/08/qc-margarine0708.html

Sorry, Boom Boom, I'm trying to do "Canadian" jokes in this thread but it's obvious that I don't know the culture.

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Originally posted by Robespierre:
Wasn't yellow-colored margarine recently made legal again in Quebec?

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I didn't look at your link (sorry) because my Internet service is really slow tonight. I can't remember exactly what the margarine controversy was - whether it was white or yellow margarine that could not be sold in Quebec - although I think that rule has been rescinded.

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Quebec's law was meant to protect butter producers in the market who felt threatened in the 1970s by the rise of margarine's popularity.

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The justification offered was that it was a consumer protection law, to save consumers from mistakenly buying margarine when they really wanted butter. Never mind that there is no recorded case of that happening anywhere where coloured maragarine is sold.

We used to have a similar law in Ontario. The margarine companies got around it by selling their white stuff in a sealed plastic bag along with a separate colouring agent which the consumer could mix into the margarine to make it yellow. I spent many happy hours as a child, squishing margarine bags with my hands to mix the liquid colour capsule into the margarine. Eventually, the warmth of my hands and the ambient air would turn the bag's contents into a warm yellow goo. The bag would then be returned to the refrigerator to firm up the contents once more before we used it.

Two things:

1)What exactly did you mean when you described yourself as "a socialist, and a modern person in most every other way"? Just so you know, most babblers consider socialism to be as "modern" as anything else.

2)Fyi Robespierre was just as "bloodthirsty" as Marat(in fact, as a leading figure in the Revolutionary government, he got to kill far more folks than Marat did, not that some of them didn't deserve it of course). It's just that Robespierre didn't have a 1960's alternative musical or a really bad rash.

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
...1)What exactly did you mean when you described yourself as "a socialist, and a modern person in most every other way"? Just so you know, most babblers consider socialism to be as "modern" as anything else.

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Hello, Ken.

Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky made very significant contributions to the theory and practice of socialism, or communism, if you prefer that term. My understanding of the world is influenced by them. I tell people that I am a socialist because the word seems to convey most of the essential concepts of my philosophy to educated persons.

I am impressed that you know what most Babblers think on the subjects of socialism and modernity.

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
2)Fyi Robespierre was just as "bloodthirsty" as Marat(in fact, as a leading figure in the Revolutionary government, he got to kill far more folks than Marat did, not that some of them didn't deserve it of course). It's just that Robespierre didn't have a 1960's alternative musical or a really bad rash.

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Yes, yes, and most likely true. I am pleased that we agree on these important points.

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My education was dismal. I went to a series of schools for mentally disturbed teachers.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

By Woody Allen. Woody is my favourite director and funny man. I adore Woody Allen. Best skit? The one in Love & Death when Woody's character gets provoked into a Pistols At Dawn match. It went something like this: "Have your firsts call on my Firsts. If my Firsts aren't in, have your Firsts call on my Seconds. If my Seconds aren't in, then the whole thing is off"

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Why am I not surprised by this, Stargazer?

I have a theory. Those who dislike Woody Allen's sense of humor, movies and plays are probably pod people, the ones we were warned about in the 1956 film Invasion of the Body Snatchers. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049366/

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
I think what we got on our hands is a dead shark.

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Some of the more trickier pod people can quote lines, you know. But, they wouldn't pick Annie Hall, no way.

Allen never had a father-daughter relationship with Soon-Yi.

Allen was never married to Soon-Yi's adoptive mother, Mia Farrow.

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Ghislaine ]

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Allen never had a father-daughter relationship with Soon-Yi.

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First, Soon-yi was never Woody's step-daughter. Soon-yi is the adopted daughter of Mia Farrow and her ex- Mr. Previn. (As an aside. Mr. Previn left his wife, Dorothy Previn for Mia farrow. Dorothy Previn went insane and ended up in a mental institution afterwards, which is when she recorded one of her most depressing albums - of which I own).

Second, Mia Farrow and Woody Allen were never married and Woody Allen was never a father to any of her adopted kids. No one saw Woody (especially the kids) as a father figure.

Both Woody and Mia kept separate apartments, across from each other in central Park.

To conclude, he did not fuck his step-daughter. He certainly was a pervert when it came to Soon-yi, and he was certainly an asshole to Mia but that does not lead to fucking a step-daughter.

I suggest to any who do not watch his movies because of this that they also immediately stop watching any movies produced, written by or directed by the following people (hell, let's also add in music!):

- Roman Polanski
- R Kelly
- Charlton Heston (forget about watching the classic Planet of the Apes)
- Rob Lowe
- Robert Blake

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
My understanding is that Allen's relationship with Ms. Soo-Yi started when he - a superstar in a relationship with her mother - enticed her into a photo shoot, convincing her she could be a model, etc. That relationhip is rather close to a father-daughter relationship.

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Stargazer wrote: Sorry Martin, you are wrong. Believe me, I have read everything regarding that incident, as well as a Biography on Woody Allen.
First, Soon-yi was never Woody's step-daughter. Soon-yi is the adopted daughter of Mia Farrow and her ex- Mr. Previn. (...)

Second, Mia Farrow and Woody Allen were never married and Woody Allen was never a father to any of her adopted kids. No one saw Woody (especially the kids) as a father figure.

Both Woody and Mia kept separate apartments, across from each other in central Park.

To conclude, he did not fuck his step-daughter.

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Well, I did not make most of the claims you rebut, so I'll have to disagree that I "am wrong".
As for you assessment "No one saw Woody (especially the kids) as a father figure," I think that is debatable on the strength of the evidence of Soon-Yi's induction into show business.

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- Roman Polanski
- R Kelly
- Charlton Heston (forget about watching the classic Planet of the Apes)
- Rob Lowe
- Robert Blake
I could add a lot more.

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Why don't you do that? I think that wife batterers and near-incest perpetrators should be held accountable.

(BTW, I think Ms. Previn's album is extraordinary and commend you for having it.)

M.Spector, have you ever heard the expression "father figure"?

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

However, in this specific case there was no father-daughter relationship. Woody was a perverted person and this was morally wrong IMO.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
If you are implying that because a man took pictures of his naked step-daughter this is conclusive their was no father-daughter relationship, you'd be wrong.

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I was responding to martin, who suggested that Allen's having allegedly taken such pictures of Previn was evidence that there was a father-daughter relationship - an assertion I find frankly bizarre.

BTW you refer to her as Allen's "step-daughter". She was the adopted daughter of his non-cohabiting girlfriend. That's not enough in my book to characterize her as his step-daughter.

I have great sympathy for the hurt and pain that Farrow went through, but as a neutral observer I cannot condemn Allen for falling in love with a younger woman.

Farrow married Frank Sinatra when she was 21 and he was 50, so she must have had some idea what that was like.

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Originally posted by Pogo:
I don't watch his films because he doesn't produce anything good anymore. I liked him best as a standup commedian. You cannot beat "I shot a Moose" or the one about his conflict with appliances.

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I thought

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Sorry Martin, you are wrong. Believe me, I have read everything regarding that incident, as well as a Biography on Woody Allen.

First, Soon-yi was never Woody's step-daughter. Soon-yi is the adopted daughter of Mia Farrow and her ex- Mr. Previn. (As an aside. Mr. Previn left his wife, Dorothy Previn for Mia farrow. Dorothy Previn went insane and ended up in a mental institution afterwards, which is when she recorded one of her most depressing albums - of which I own).

Second, Mia Farrow and Woody Allen were never married and Woody Allen was never a father to any of her adopted kids. No one saw Woody (especially the kids) as a father figure.

Both Woody and Mia kept separate apartments, across from each other in central Park.

To conclude, he did not fuck his step-daughter. He certainly was a pervert when it came to Soon-yi, and he was certainly an asshole to Mia but that does not lead to fucking a step-daughter.

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You can see I certainly do not think of Soon-Yi and Woody's step-daughter. My second response was about any man in a step-father/father role, and how these relationships can certainly become polluted by sexual abuse.

Thank you.

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

Ordinary people understand this even if the law almost always lets these men get away with it, especially when they are rich and famous.

You know, all females are not unwitting dupes. Some (I know eh?) actually like older men. In fact, it was very very possible that Soon-Yi actually loves Woody Allen and like hello? The thought of Woody as a seducer is sort of...well...not quite right.

I think polarizing women into one of two camps - victim or whore - is wrong. Women have their own agency and the only one who cane speak on this subject with any authority at all is Soon-Yi herself. To date I have not heard her say anything. In fact, she's still married to Woody, and appears to love him.

It can happen, it does happen...

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

Woody and Mia Farrow adopted two children together and had one biological child together. They were dating. Obviously Soon-Yi and Mia's other children would consider these three children their siblings. They all lived together and looked at Mia and Woody and a mother and father. Even though Woody never technically lived with Mia, he spent enough time there to have his own personal bathroom built, according to her memoirs.

I think if I had a daughter, and found out that my partner with whom I had children and a long-term relationship started having a sexual relationship with her (which might possibly have started while she was a teenager for all anyone knows) and had gotten access to her through his relationship with me, the little technicality of "he's not your husband and therefore your daughter by a previous marriage is not his stepdaughter" would seem like pretty thin consolation. He was still in a position of power, as the father of Soon-Yi's half-siblings.

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
When you seduce and fuck the daughter of your regular sex partner, it's incest, whether she is an adopted or a biological child and whether you have married or simply partnered with her mother.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
...while she was a teenager...

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But I think it's stretching it to say that a guy who has sex with the half-sibling of his children is completely in the clear when it comes to boundaries.

I mean, hey, I know that life isn't always simple and that there are exceptions to a lot of rules, and things have worked out, at least on the surface of the relationship that we can see. But my personal reaction to it is one of revulsion, and I have a visceral reaction to it every time I see him.

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Woody and Mia Farrow adopted two children together and had one biological child together.

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Soon-Yi was not adopted by Woody Allen. Mr.Previn and Mia adopted her. Allen barely spent time with them and the adopted kids think of Mr. Previn as their father - not Woody.

I agree Michelle, it certainly is creepy, but I would not stop watching his movies, or listening to his stand-up comedy (of which is currently on my iPod) because of this.

And no Martin, I will not boycott movies based upon the actions of their writers, director's etc unless it is something horrible they have done (eg. OJ and his book). If we follow your boycotts, then hell, I'd have to do an examination of the lives and sexual/moral behaviour and political positions of all public figures, authors etc. I can't do that. I'm human.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I've never seen any evidence they had sex while she was a teenager. Have you?

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Yeah, I said as much in my previous post, but I edited the post you quoted to make myself more clear.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

Soon-Yi was not adopted by Woody Allen. Mr.Previn and Mia adopted her. Allen barely spent time with them and the adopted kids think of Mr. Previn as their father - not Woody.

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True, but Soon-Yi lived with Woody Allen's biological and adoptive children and would have considered them her siblings.

But I agree that I cannot give up Woody Allen movies!

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I dunno, Michelle, but their marriage has lasted longer than yours did.

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That is an extremely rude low blow!!

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
I think polarizing women into one of two camps - victim or whore - is wrong. Women have their own agency and the only one who cane speak on this subject with any authority at all is Soon-Yi herself. To date I have not heard her say anything. In fact, she's still married to Woody, and appears to love him.

It can happen, it does happen...

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
A man in his late 50's drooling over a young woman just past the age of consent is disgusting on so many levels who cares about the exact parental relationship.

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Or Billy Joel, who married Katie Lee when she was 23 and he was 55.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Soon-Yi was not adopted by Woody Allen. Mr.Previn and Mia adopted her. Allen barely spent time with them and the adopted kids think of Mr. Previn as their father - not Woody.

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I realize that she is not Allen's kid, adopted or otherwise. Her siblings, however, are Allen's kids. Although I suppose it must be amusing to try to explain the extended family relationships to their kids.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

I realize that she is not Allen's kid, adopted or otherwise. Her siblings, however, are Allen's kids. Although I suppose it must be amusing to try to explain the extended family relationships to their kids.

"Hey kids, say hi to your aunt/sister, and your brother/uncle. Why yes, pumpkin, they're both your siblings AND your aunts and uncles, isn't that swell? On alternating days you can call her Aunt So-and-so, and the rest of the time, you can just call her So-and-so."

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I dunno, Michelle, but their marriage has lasted longer than yours did.

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What does my marriage have to do with anything?

BTW, I agree with you on the age difference thing - I couldn't care less about that. For all I care, a 20 year old could marry an 85 year-old, and if they're happy, more power to them. I was simply talking about the family contact thing in this case, although I realize you were responding to other people's remarks about their age difference.

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:
That is an extremely rude low blow!!

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I have read that Woody took pornographic pictures of Soon-Yi when she was only 17.

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You're right. I apologize, Michelle!

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
...I think polarizing women into one of two camps - victim or whore - is wrong. Women have their own agency and the only one who cane speak on this subject with any authority at all is Soon-Yi herself. To date I have not heard her say anything. In fact, she's still married to Woody, and appears to love him.

It can happen, it does happen...

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Yup, that.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
...the truth is, I'm quite happy that it didn't last any longer than it did, and often wish it had been much, much shorter.

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Originally posted by stargazer:
Women have their own agency and the only one who cane speak on this subject with any authority at all is Soon-Yi herself.

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Yes, that's a salutary reminder. And yet .... if consistently applied, this is a perspective that would virtually eliminate discussion of the behaviour and motives of others.

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Originally posted by Robespierre:
Smart cookie, that Stargazer.

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That's why we love her!

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RosaL: And yet .... if consistently applied, this is a perspective that would virtually eliminate discussion of the behaviour and motives of others.

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[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by stargazer:
Women have their own agency and the only one who cane speak on this subject with any authority at all is Soon-Yi herself.

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Anyone at any time has the right to comment on anything, and if they have the means to do it they usually do. But only Soon-Yi has the authority to tell us what the exact nature of her relationship with Allen was during times of alleged inappropriateness such as the photo shoot, mentioned in previous comments, because Soon-Yi was there. Were any of us there with her?

I take Soon-Yi's silence about anything inappropriate happening between her and Allen as a sign that nothing like that ever took place. From my outsider's point of view I can see nothing wrong with Soon-Yi and Allen's relationship before their marriage. Their marriage was unusual and unexpected, but love often is.

Even the most innocuous opening post can develop into a shitstorm.

You have the power. Use it carefully.

[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Robespierre: ...I take Soon-Yi's silence about anything inappropriate happening between her and Allen as a sign that nothing like that ever took place.

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M. Spector: ...even the most innocuous opening post can develop into a shitstorm.

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[ 10 July 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

I do feel badly about your hijacked greeting thread though. So here is some cake for you:

http://www.magicmud.com/Rock%20and%20Roll%20Wedding%20Cake%20Topper.jpg

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Greetings and welcome to Babble Robespieere (BTW, you were right about what I meant.)

I do feel badly about your hijacked greeting thread though. So here is some cake for you:

http://www.magicmud.com/Rock%20and%20Roll%20Wedding%20Cake%20Topper.jpg

It looks like a Grateful Dead cake, but we can pretend it isn't.

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Originally posted by Robespierre:
I'm an American living in New York City, a socialist . . .

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I read that they were "nude" pictures, which is not exactly the same thing as "pornographic" - but then who among us has seen them so as to be able to judge?

And taking pictures is not the same as fucking.

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:

Perhaps you are. On the other hand, perhaps you are a Free Dominion freak living in Calgary who has decided to try to have some fun pretending to be one of the "enemy" and see if you can cause some trouble.

The point is, we don't know. We can only judge by your posts, which have often been annoying, presumptuous and disruptive.

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I've instructed local RMCP to confiscate all of your milk and cookies. Wilf.

Nobody messes with the FBI!

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Originally posted by jas:
Sorry, just had to backtrack here. M Spector, do you have kids? Are you suggesting it wouldn't bother you if an older man - say a family friend - took nude pictures of one of your children? Are you suggesting that a 17-year old has "agency" in a situation where her mother's boyfriend - presumably someone mother and kids have grown to trust - who is also famous, beloved by many, and wealthy, suggests to her that taking nude pictures would be fun? Because if you're not suggesting this, what is it you're saying?

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What does this have to do with anything? I never criticized Mia Farrow for being pissed off with Woody Allen - in fact, I specifically expressed, supra, "great sympathy for the hurt and pain that Farrow went through".

All I'm saying about the photographs is what I said above: that none of us has ever seen the alleged photographs and therefore we are in no position to judge their content; and that taking photographs is not evidence of incest, statutory rape, or adultery. Moreover, I don't know how old Previn was when the photographs were taken, the circumstances under which they were taken, or the purpose of taking them.

In the absence of all that information, I am not prepared to jump to the conclusion that Allen was guilty of any crime. Again, I repeat, if there were reasonable and probable grounds to believe he had committed a morals offence, you can be sure he would have been charged.