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» babble   » current events   » international news and politics   » Norman Finkelstein denied tenure

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Author Topic: Norman Finkelstein denied tenure
Max Bialystock
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posted 19 June 2007 08:59 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
http://tinyurl.com/2j92ph

This is a shame.

BTW a friend of mine who is a law professor says Alan Dershowitz's contribution to legal scholarship is practically nil (maybe someone who knows more about legal academia can comment) so why he should have any influence is beyond me.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 19 June 2007 09:28 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Disgusting.

We now know Alan Dershowitz is a man entirely without honor, who will destroy anyone who commits truth about how the monstrous crime of antisemitism is unjustly hijacked to justify crimes against those who didn't COMMIT the Holocaust.

For shame.

I hope Berkeley does the right thing and offers him a professorship.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 19 June 2007 09:42 AM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
I hope Berkeley does the right thing and offers him a professorship.

Are they considering it?


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Ken Burch
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posted 19 June 2007 09:55 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't know. But it would be the right thing for them to do.

Or Evergreen College in Olympia, or the University of Oregon, or any number of other progressive university campuses in the U.S.(or Canada for that matter, but I don't know which ones are the good ones in your country.) And also, if Finkelstein DID get an offer at a Canadian university, would Harper let him into the country?

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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Phonz
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posted 19 June 2007 10:52 AM      Profile for Phonz        Edit/Delete Post
This is terrible. Finkelstein's a gift to the educational system. I loved "Nation on Trial." Hey, aren't our modern universities supposed to be above politics?
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Martha (but not Stewart)
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posted 19 June 2007 12:36 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If this was a politically motivated decision, then it is an outrage. The only things that should matter in a tenure decision are the scholarly and pedagogical merits of the candidate.

On the other hand, I do want to point out that the tenure committee has access to something neither we nor Noam Chomsky has access to: the tenure dossier. This dossier typically includes letters from prominent members of the candidate's subdiscipline, reviewing the candidate's published work and any unpublished manuscripts the candidate wishes to submit. The committee members themselves are not charged with a review of the work, since they will typically not be in the right subdiscipline, and will thus lack the appropriate expertise: they make their recommendation primarily on the basis of the outside reference letters. (The committee merely recommends: the university president makes the actual decision.) Since I have not seen the reference letters and since I am personally in no position to comment on the scholarly merit of Finkelstein's work, I really cannot comment on the appropriateness of the decision.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 19 June 2007 02:27 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have never been much impressed with Finkelstein, who strikes me as more of an ideologue than a person seeking after knowledge.

Lots of universities have people on their faculties who would fit that description, though.

If Finkelstein is going to play this as a Zionist conspiracy (a virtual certainty, I think), then he should be required to release his tenure file, as Martha mentions. As it is, he has the right to keep its contents private.

If he releases the file, and there's nothing terrible in it, I'll join the bandwagon denouncing this as a political decision.


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Jingles
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posted 19 June 2007 03:38 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You do know about Dershowitz's jihad against Finkelstein, right?

This is purely a political decision, and that the university bowed to pressure from some pretty powerful interests is as disgusting as it was inevitable in today's US political climate.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 19 June 2007 03:59 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
I have never been much impressed with Finkelstein, who strikes me as more of an ideologue than a person seeking after knowledge.

So you must object to Alan Dershowitz having tenure at Harvard, eh Jeff? Dershowitz isn't even considered a scholar by legal academics.

http://tinyurl.com/2yrz3n

The Holocaust Industry was not a scholarly work. But his Image and Reality in the Middle East certainly is and it was Finkelstein was the one who demolished the myths of Joan Peters while a graduate student at Princeton.

Finkelstein rightly told Dershowitz during a debate on Democracy Now that he was the reason why lawyers have such a bad reputation!

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


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Max Bialystock
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posted 19 June 2007 04:17 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Or Evergreen College in Olympia, or the University of Oregon, or any number of other progressive university campuses in the U.S.(or Canada for that matter, but I don't know which ones are the good ones in your country.) And also, if Finkelstein DID get an offer at a Canadian university, would Harper let him into the country?

Maybe Finkelstein could get a job in the U.K. In Canada I know off the bat he wouldn't get hired at McGill, U of T or York (even though the latter has a lot of very radical faculty).

Zionist lobbies are much more powerful on this continent than they are in Europe.


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ohara
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posted 19 June 2007 06:37 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I love the way Max and some others jump on the Zionist conspiracy angle. Coulds it be that Finkelstein's schoilarship just doesnt measure up? Naa that wouold be too damn obvious. It has to be thoose dman Zionists. They have so much power so much influence. They can stop speeding bullets, they can topple governments, they listen to your conversataions and can read yor emails and most of all they can stop the tenure of Norman Finkrelstein.

Come on folks, giuve this Zionist conspiracy crap a rest. Finkelstein was booted from NYU, Hunter College and Brooklyn College and now cant get tenure at De Paul university doesnt that tell you something?


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Ken Burch
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posted 19 June 2007 06:51 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ohara, I myself am not part of any group alleging "Zionist conspiracies". The issue isn't, in this case, with a group known as "Zionists", the issue in this case was the irrational and pointlessly harsh intervention in a tenure process of one man, Alan Dershowitz, who appears to have been obsessed with denying Mr. Finkelstein tenure simply because Mr. Finkelstein differs with Mr. Dershowitz on the Israel/Palestine issue. Can you honestly justify Mr. Dershowitz deliberate and obsessive campaign to destroy another academic's career?

And if Mr. Finkelstein's scholarship is so obviously inferior and unworthy, why was his application for tenure approved by the faculty, the group most directly conversant with scholarship, and only denied by the administrators and the college president, both of whom were far more likely to be swayed by the sort of external political pressures that are never appropriate in a decision about academic tenure?

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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Lord Palmerston
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posted 19 June 2007 11:26 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Chomsky on the fate of an honest intellectual

http://www.chomsky.info/books/power01.htm


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
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posted 20 June 2007 05:27 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
This is purely a political decision, and that the university bowed to pressure from some pretty powerful interests is as disgusting as it was inevitable in today's US political climate.

I take it that you have not seen the tenure file, and that you have not read the letters by prominent scholars in Finkelstein's discipline assessing Finkelstein's work.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 20 June 2007 08:53 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
If in fact Finkelstein has never been able to gain tenure at any of the other academies of higher learning at which he taught then surely there is more here that Allan Dershowitz at play. Perhaps the politics is happening at the staff level and the College President has assesed the tenure file and determined that Finkelstein's scholarship just doesn't cut it.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 20 June 2007 09:17 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
If in fact Finkelstein has never been able to gain tenure at any of the other academies of higher learning at which he taught then surely there is more here that Allan Dershowitz at play.

That is the only true part of your statement:
Finklestein is indeed on many hit lists, including Daniel Pipe's McCarthyesque "Campus Watch" and David Horowitz's "The 101 most Dangerous Academics in America" (which also includes Howard Zinn and Chomsky).

Finklestein's tenure was approved by his academic peers in the college who saw the dossier on his scholarship voted for his tenure.
It was overturned by the administration who's area of speciallity and interest is-- donors and the bottom line.

Babble has more than its share of Dershowitz-David Horowitz-Daniel Pipes clones all too eager to destroy academic freedom for a extremist vision of the greater good of Israel.

Edited for URL


101 most dangerous

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: contrarianna ]

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: contrarianna ]


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 June 2007 09:20 AM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
Perhaps the politics is happening at the staff level and the College President has assesed the tenure file and determined that Finkelstein's scholarship just doesn't cut it.

Funny that's exactly what Dershowitz suggests

quote:

Nevertheless, Mr. Finkelstein's radical colleagues voted for tenure, having cooked the books by seeking outside evaluations from two of his ideological soulmates. The dean, however, recommended against tenure. Mr. Finkelstein then used my letter to stimulate a "Solidarity with Finkelstein" campaign.

http://tinyurl.com/2fwsgl


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Max Bialystock
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posted 20 June 2007 10:05 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's funny how Jeff insists Finkelstein is a mere ideologue and not a genuine scholar when he has the support from the diverse likes of Noam Chomsky, Raul Hilberg, Tony Judt and Avi Shlaim.

Again what do you think of Dershowitz's scholarship? According to Richard Posner he's not a scholar at all. According to Texas law and philosophy prof. Brian Leiter he's Harvard's most famous and least distinguished faculty member.

No wonder there's a lot of resentment of law school faculty by other academics. The pay for law professors is higher even though few have Ph.D.'s and the tenure process is a comparative joke.

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


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Petsy
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posted 20 June 2007 11:30 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
So answer one question, why has he not been able to get tenure at any university he has worked at? And please lets leave the Zionist conspiracies in the garbage bin or better yet with the White Supremacists who have more ownership of such garbage.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 June 2007 11:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Comparing Max to a white supremacist is a personal attack. That is against babble policy. Refrain from doing that again.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 20 June 2007 12:02 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
Refrain from doing it again??? I didnt do it in the first place. Michelle read it again, Im suggesting that conspiracy theories about Zionists belong with White Supremacists. Where do I even come close to making a comparision with Max? Im not crazy about Max but hell I would never make such a comparision and I take huge offense that you would read that into my message.
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BetterRed
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posted 20 June 2007 12:19 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who mentioned a "conspiracy"?
This firing smacks of an ugly personal vendetta,not "conspiracy"

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Stockholm
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posted 20 June 2007 12:31 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If we want to talk about academic vendettas what about all these attempts to stop any Israeli academics from coming to any universities in the UK.
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Petsy
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posted 20 June 2007 12:35 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
I see well that answers my question, all the universities that denied Finkelstein tenure have a vendettaagainst him. Nothing at all to do with Norman Finkelstein's scholarship they just all have it in for him. Right.
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Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 June 2007 12:38 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
I see well that answers my question, all the universities that denied Finkelstein tenure have a vendettaagainst him. Nothing at all to do with Norman Finkelstein's scholarship they just all have it in for him. Right.

So how do you EXPLAIN the political science department at DePaul GRANTING tenure to Finkelstein? Do you support the right of administrations to overrule faculty in the tenure process?


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johnpauljones
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posted 20 June 2007 12:43 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am shocked that no one not anyone on this thread realizes the gift that stormin norman has been given.


I recognize that he has not been given tenure at any school he has applied to be a tenured prof at.

but lets look at it from a different angle -- and those who know me know that I am not a supporter of everything that stormin Norman does -- but that different angle is this.

Since he has been denied tenure he does not have to abide by admnistration rules. Rather he is free to do as he pleases since he knows that the worst that can happen is that he is not renewed and then as has been posted by others their are universities waiting for him with open arms.

Tenure can be both good and bad. Yes sometimes tenure is called a job for life but it also comes with requirements from adminstration etc.

Stormin Norman is free to do, say and write as he pleases since he knows that tenure is not around the corner.

He will be hired or fired with the admin knowing exactly who they are getting.


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Petsy
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posted 20 June 2007 12:43 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
I was not part of the discussions or the deliberations so who knows. Im still waiting for you to explain how it is that every univeristy Finkelstein has ever been involved with has refused to grant him tenure. Maybe just maybe his scholarship does not measure up. Or are they all wrong and only Finkelstein and some of his buddies at DePaul are right?
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 20 June 2007 01:13 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So ohara, Petsy and Stockholm are on record supporting the right of administrations to overrule the faculty in tenure decisions.
From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 20 June 2007 01:16 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If we want to talk about academic vendettas what about all these attempts to stop any Israeli academics from coming to any universities in the UK.

Source?

I think encouraging Israeli academics to emigrate is actually a good idea. I have a friend in the Annex who is an Israeli-born professor and he'd be insulted to be called a Zionist.

Besides another "leftist" left-baiter, Ernie Lightman, has spear-headed a move at UofT to have a working relationship with Haifa university. Bring it on!


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Petsy
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posted 20 June 2007 01:17 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
Max the question that really needs answering in terms of order of events is one I have now put numerous times, why has every univerity and college at which Finkelstein taught refused to grant tenor?
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 20 June 2007 01:17 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
why has every univerity and college at which Finkelstein taught refused to grant tenor?

Because he never got to first bass?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 20 June 2007 01:19 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
Max the question that really needs answering in terms of order of events is one I have now put numerous times, why has every univerity and college at which Finkelstein taught refused to grant tenor?

Not DePaul.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 20 June 2007 01:26 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
So answer one question, why has he not been able to get tenure at any university he has worked at? And please lets leave the Zionist conspiracies in the garbage bin or better yet with the White Supremacists who have more ownership of such garbage.

I addressed that question directly with references but Petsey's position can be paraphrased as:
"Tell me why has he not been able to get tenure at any university he has worked at?--but if you dare to do so I'll smear you as a Zionist conspiracy theorist and we all know who they are-wink wink."

Obviously there is no conspiracy let alone a conspiracy theory.

A defining trait of a conspiracy is secrecy. It can hardly be called a secret campaign to vilify Finklestein if there are web pages on well funded high-profile sites (see references above) devoted to doing so. Neither is Dershowitz's letter writing campaign secret. It doesn't matter how many like-minded people or groups seek to publicly discredit Finklestein, that isn't a conspiracy. Even if there were behind the scenes calls to University donors or suggestions of further embarrassments of the College, that's not conspiracy It's only standard, behind the scenes politics.


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johnpauljones
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posted 20 June 2007 01:44 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone know if he applied for tenure at Rutgers University, New York University, Brooklyn College, and Hunter College where he was before DePaul and if he applied for tenure at any of these schools?
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Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 June 2007 01:45 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Does anyone know if he applied for tenure at Rutgers University, New York University, Brooklyn College, and Hunter College where he was before DePaul and if he applied for tenure at any of these schools?

That's a good question. I believe Finkelstein had insecure status (non-tenure track) at all those places which meant he couldn't be considered for tenure and could be let go very easily.


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Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 June 2007 02:13 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dean Suchar justifies his recommendation on the ground that Dr. Finkelstein’s scholarly work, though sound in its content, is often uncivil, disrespectful, mean-spirited, inflammatory, and so on, in its tone. We object to this weighting of criteria, especially when a scholar’s polemical style is cited as evidence that he lacks “values of collegiality.” The American Association of University Professors has explicitly challenged the use of criteria such as “collegiality” in tenure and promotion evaluations, precisely because these terms are subject to a wide range of interpretations. The AAUP rightly notes that criteria of this sort are often used to mask retribution as well as disciplinary or other biases. We note that they often stand in for political disagreement. The likelihood increases, in our view, when the criteria are couched as vague institutional principles, such as “personalism” and “Vincentian values.”


http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2007/06/depaul_universi.html

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 20 June 2007 03:05 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I join the voices on this thread denouncing the shameful spectacle of Norman Finklestein being denied tenure at DePaul University.

Norman Finklestein is a brilliant man, a gift to scholarship both on antisemitism, and on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Alan Desrshowitz, on the other hand, is an intellectually dishonest man. His book "The Case For Israel" was plagiarized from "In Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters, which Finklestein has proved to be a fraud. So Dershowitz plagiarized a fraud. That the administration of DePaul University (or any other university) puts any stock in the opinions of Alan Dershowitz shows how far the theory of the new anti-semitism (where any and all criticism of Israel is considered anti-semitic) has inflitrated US academia.

[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: Left Turn ]


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 20 June 2007 03:38 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
And so the fact thathe could not gain tenure anywhere including DePaul a second rate university at best, is not Finkelstein's fault. Its becuase all those university's just hate him. Lordy lord you guys are gullible.
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torontoprofessor
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posted 20 June 2007 03:42 PM      Profile for torontoprofessor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi. I'm new here, but this seems like an appropriate place for me to start on babble. I have been through tenure procedures twice myself: I got tenure at one institution, but at Toronto they require all newly hired Associate Professors to go through a tenure procedure at Toronto; I have sat on a number of tenure committees; I have written letters of assessment for tenure candidates at other universities; and I have written internal letters of assessment for tenure candidates at Toronto. I want to correct a number of misconceptions about tenure, and to respond to some remarks and answer some questions.

I will take these in the order in which they are written.

1. Jeff House: "If he [Finkelstein] releases the file, and there's nothing terrible in it, I'll join the bandwagon denouncing this as a political decision." Finkelstein does not have the power to "release the file". In fact, he has probably never seen the file, and will probably never see it (unless he subpoenas it or something like that). Tenure files contain confidential letters of assessment, and these letters are not available to the candidate or to anyone other than people on relevant committees. This is central to the tenure process.

2. Ken Burch: "And if Mr. Finkelstein's scholarship is so obviously inferior and unworthy, why was his application for tenure approved by the faculty, the group most directly conversant with scholarship, and only denied by the administrators and the college president ... ?"
2a. Tenure procedures vary from university to university, but the following is typical. First, there's a decision made at the department level, then this recommendation is passed on to a decanal committee, which then makes a recommendation to the president who then either grants or denies tenure. (Sometimes there's a committee in between the dean and the president, such as a provostial committee).
2b. It is extremely common for the home department's recommendation to be positive, even when the final decision is negative. The reason for this is obvious: the home department consists of close colleagues who have been working with the candidate for a number of years.
2c. Members of a tenure committee are not charged with reviewing or assessing the candidate's scholarly work: they are only charged with make a decision on the basis of the assessments in the file, written by scholars in the subdiscipline who are at arm's length from the candidate. This is important: a logician (in a philosophy department, say) is not in a position to assess the merits of a medievalist in her own department. Thus, if the logician is on the committee, she must rely on the confidential outside assessments, presumably written by medievalists.

3. contrarianna: "Finklestein's tenure was approved by his academic peers in the college who saw the dossier on his scholarship voted for his tenure." First, see 2b and 2c, above. Second, his department is not in a position to "approve" of the tenure: they only make a recommendation.

4. Max Bialystock: "It's funny how Jeff insists Finkelstein is a mere ideologue and not a genuine scholar when he has the support from the diverse likes of Noam Chomsky, Raul Hilberg, Tony Judt and Avi Shlaim." Professionally, Chomsky is a linguist: his assessment of Finkelstein's work should be pretty much irrelevant to the case. As for the others, anyone is free to write a letter assessing a candidate's work to a departmental chair: that letter will indeed be added to the file. I do not know if any of them actually supported Finkelstein sufficiently to write such a letter.

5. Lord Palmerston: "So how do you EXPLAIN the political science department at DePaul GRANTING tenure to Finkelstein?" First, see 2b and 2c and 3. Second, the home department cannot grant tenure. The home department can only make a recommendation.

6. Lord Palmerston: "Do you support the right of administrations to overrule faculty in the tenure process?" Absolutely. Tenure is a decision made on behalf of the entire university, not just the home department. It commits the entire university to the candidate in perpetuity. This is emphatically not just an in-house departmental matter.

7. johnpauljones: "Tenure can be both good and bad. Yes sometimes tenure is called a job for life but it also comes with requirements from adminstration etc." It is almost impossible to fire a tenured professor, unless she refuses to teach or goes to prison or something extreme like that. Tenure does not come with "requirements from adminstration" where scholarship is concerned: quite the opposite. Of course, it does come with the requirement to minimally do your job: show up to teach your classes, serve on the occasional hiring committee (and even that you can avoid if you don't care about your salary raises), etc. In fact, the only absolute requirement is to teach your classes.

8. Max Bialystock: "So ohara, Petsy and Stockholm are on record supporting the right of administrations to overrule the faculty in tenure decisions." First, administrators are also faculty members. Second, departments are not "overruled" since departments only make recommendations and not decisions. Third, for reasons outlined above, I think it is crucial that the final decision not be an in-house departmental matter.

Nothing I have written in any way is a defence of this particular decision.

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: torontoprofessor ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 20 June 2007 03:48 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
But it provides excellent information. Thanks
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Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 June 2007 04:20 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough Toronto prof. but how often does the administration disagree with the departmental recommendations for tenure? I'm almost certain it is very, very rare the department is "overruled" by the university.

Note that the Dean has no problem with Finkelstein's scholarship but rather with his lack of "collegiality" (though this is enough for ohara et. al. to claim as "proof" that Finkelstein's scholarly credentials are lacking). The AAUP finds this extremely problematic.

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]


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pookie
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posted 20 June 2007 04:25 PM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Fair enough Toronto prof. but how often does the administration disagree with the departmental recommendations for tenure?

My sense is that tenure decisions are far more fraught in the U.S. than in Canada, with rejections more common BOTH at the departmental/faculty and administative level.


From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
torontoprofessor
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posted 20 June 2007 08:29 PM      Profile for torontoprofessor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Fair enough Toronto prof. but how often does the administration disagree with the departmental recommendations for tenure? I'm almost certain it is very, very rare the department is "overruled" by the university.

This depends very much on the university. At some of the prestige universities, it is extremely common: the departmental decision is a formality while the "real decision" is made at the decanal level (and the president usually just goes with the dean's recommendation). I do not have statistics on this, but I do have lots of anecdotal evidence. At Stanford in the early 90s, the dean established the following rule: if a department gives a positive recommendation for a candidate that eventually does not get tenure, then the department loses the line; if a department recommends against tenure, then the department keeps the line. This was instituted because the dean felt that too many departments were simply passing the buck, and the hard work of making negative recommendations, up to the dean. This, of course, resulted in more negative tenure recommendations at the departmental level at Stanford.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Note that the Dean has no problem with Finkelstein's scholarship but rather with his lack of "collegiality" (though this is enough for ohara et. al. to claim as "proof" that Finkelstein's scholarly credentials are lacking). The AAUP finds this extremely problematic.

So do I. Extremely.

At the University of Toronto, the criteria for tenure are (1) clear promise of future intellectual and professional development; (2) demonstrated excellence in one (or both) of research and teaching; and (3) clearly established competence in the other.

According to DePaul's Faculty Hanbook (link): "The criteria for [tenure] decisions are the quality of the candidate’s: 1. teaching and learning, 2. scholarship, research, and/or other creative activities, and 3. service to the university." There's nothing about collegiality, unless you mix that in with "service to the university". I suppose that the president's best argument (though I am very uncomfortable with this argument) would be that Finkelstein somehow did a disservice to the university. I prefer Toronto's criteria, which are based entirely on teaching, research, and future promise.


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torontoprofessor
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posted 20 June 2007 08:34 PM      Profile for torontoprofessor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pookie:
My sense is that tenure decisions are far more fraught in the U.S. than in Canada, with rejections more common BOTH at the departmental/faculty and administative level.

This is my sense too. Until about ten years ago, I hear that the tenure rate at Harvard was on the order of 15%. Anecdotal evidence suggests that this rate is inching upwards; in my discipline, Harvard has made a surprisingly large number of positive decisions. The tenure rate at Toronto for the last few years has been over 95%. (link)


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Lord Palmerston
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posted 20 June 2007 09:00 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Harvard has the luxury of sending telling really good people to go off elsewhere and make something of themselves. If they do, they come back.

But Harvard has its problems. Dershowitz for instance isn't really a scholar at all though he feels free to deem Finkelstein "unscholarly."

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2004/08/the_myth_of_lef.html


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Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 21 June 2007 05:59 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
I covered a Norman Finkelstein speech at Concordia University. At least one audience member (who obviously was not a fan) questioned him on his record at other universities. I don't remember exactly what Finkelstein said, but he was quite confrontational. He also caused a stir when he said his mother never saw a German in the Polish ghetto in which she lived and where the local population was persecuted.
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Stephen Gordon
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posted 21 June 2007 09:01 AM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
Daniel Drezner on Finkelstein:

quote:
1) Finkelstein and his supporters are crying "outside interference" in the form of Alan Dershowitz's jihad against Finkelstein. As someone who has been on the receiving end of a tenure denial, and been told by many, many people that idiotic reason X must be the key explanatory factor, I have to take this kind of charge with a whopping grain of salt...

2) Finkelstein's supporters do not help his case by overpraising him. The final paragraph of the Guardian story on Finkelstein reads,"Mr Chomsky said before the announcement that the dispute was "outrageous. [Finkelstein] is an outstanding scholar. It's amazing that he hasn't had full professorship a long time ago."

Well now. Looking at a cached cv and Finkelstein's Wikipedia entry, a red flag for me is the fact that Finkelstein has been in the field for twenty years and apparently has never published a single peer-reviewed article. I looked on multiple search engines and the only journal articles I found were book reviews. Sorry, Noam, no one deserves a full professorship with that record...

3) If Finkelstein's supporters and detractors agree on one thing, it's that he's a nasty sparring partner. He likes to characterize the ADL as "Nazis." on his web site. His biggest boosters allow that he has a "polemical" writing style -- you can guess what his detractors think...

4) Despite all of this, DePaul's decision is really, really troubling to those of us who like academic freedom. The political science department voted 9-3 to grant him tenure, and they also exonerated him of academic misconduct charge that were levied against him. I would have understood if the department or the university had denied him because of holes in his scholarly record, but that was clearly not their reasoning...

Crudely put, you cannot and should not deny tenure to someone just because they've been an asshole in print. If you rigorously applied that criteria to the academy, you'd have to kick out a lot more people than Finkelstein...

There might well be valid reasons for having denied him tenure. But reading the paper trail on this case, it's hard not to conclude that DePaul did not use a valid reason. Indeed, it's hard not to conclude that Finkelstein got a raw deal.



From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 21 June 2007 09:20 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by torontoprofessor:

3. contrarianna: "Finklestein's tenure was approved by his academic peers in the college who saw the dossier on his scholarship voted for his tenure." First, see 2b and 2c, above. Second, his department is not in a position to "approve" of the tenure: they only make a recommendation.

......
...administrators are also faculty members. Second, departments are not "overruled" since departments only make recommendations and not decisions. Third, for reasons outlined above, I think it is crucial that the final decision not be an in-house departmental matter.

Nothing I have written in any way is a defence of this particular decision.

[ 20 June 2007: Message edited by: torontoprofessor ]


Your first point about "approval" is right, of course. In discussing in a procedural system the right technical meanings of words are essential--I failed to do that. Yet implicit in a department's "recommendation" is a non-binding departmental approval of the candidate for that position.
...
An administrator's relation to actual academic research and teaching is often tenuous--at best, and their relation to the academic fields of the candidates which they pass final "approval" or rejection is, more often than not, non-existent.
That is why in most cases they defer to the recommendations of the departments.
There may be some dispute over how often the recommendations are rejected, if you have found statistics for different universities I'd like to see them.

(That is not to say there should not be a qualified committee to review the department's recommendations--to review, say, a predisposition of a department to hire only like-thinking members.)

DePaul's President Rev. Holtschneider has a BA in Mathematics and a Doctorate in Administration and may be by some definitions an academic "peer" of Finklestein, but not in any credible sense.


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 21 June 2007 09:52 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stephen Gorden wrote:
"Well now. Looking at a cached cv and Finkelstein's Wikipedia entry, a red flag for me is the fact that Finkelstein has been in the field for twenty years and apparently has never published a single peer-reviewed article. I looked on multiple search engines and the only journal articles I found were book reviews."

Do note that at least 2 of the books are published by major academic presses which would have been peer-reviewed by press selected "readers", specialists in the field.
Scrutiny of such publications is normally in excess to that given for an article and, due to the controversial subject matter and writer, I would guess the scrutiny for these costly productions would be in excess of average.

[ 21 June 2007: Message edited by: contrarianna ]


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 21 June 2007 09:59 AM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
To be clear, I was quoting Daniel Drezner's piece. As it happens, he follows that bit with this:

quote:
[Dude, he's published five books!!--ed. Yes, but I haven't heard of his primary book publisher, and peer-reviewed articles remain the gold standard in our field. DePaul ain't a top-20 institution, but it's good enough that this should have been an issue.]

From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 21 June 2007 10:27 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:
He also caused a stir when he said his mother never saw a German in the Polish ghetto in which she lived and where the local population was persecuted.

What is being suggested by that innuendo.

Finklestein's "mother, Maryla Husyt Finkelstein, grew up in Warsaw, Poland, and survived the Warsaw Ghetto and the Majdanek concentration camp, as well as two slave labor camps. His father, Zacharias Finkelstein, was a survivor of both the Warsaw Ghetto and the Auschwitz concentration camp."


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 21 June 2007 01:22 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I have no clue what's being suggested. However I know a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto and she has horror stories about the Nazis murderous activities in the Ghetto.
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Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 21 June 2007 01:25 PM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I have no clue what's being suggested. However I know a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto and she has horror stories about the Nazis murderous activities in the Ghetto.

What some in the community interpreted from that comment was that it was just the Jewish councils (judenrats) or "Jewish police" persecuting the population.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 21 June 2007 02:02 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:

What some in the community interpreted from that comment was that it was just the Jewish councils (judenrats) or "Jewish police" persecuting the population.


This seems to be a variant of Dershowitz's sleazy
attack.Maryla Husyt Finkelstein


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boarsbreath
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posted 21 June 2007 02:09 PM      Profile for Boarsbreath   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You don't need the experience of hiring university faculty -- even the little I have -- to know what a waste of time it is to second-guess a decision like this, on the basis of media reports.

There's a fascinating and very broad issue about how Palestine/Israel is treated in universities. There's a possibly fascinating, but very particular, issue of one man's suitability as permanent staff. We can debate the first. Without the files and heck, without meeting the guy, I don't see how we could even begin to debate the second.

All that happens is we start debating the broad issue as though it were the particular one.


From: South Seas, ex Montreal | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 21 June 2007 02:14 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
What exactly is the problem here? Is there ANY question that the Nazis were in and in control of the Warsaw ghetto? Finkelstein's mother aside, all one need do is read Ringelblum's diary or read the Holocaust poetry of Yitzchak Katznelson to get a brutal picture of what Nazi soldiers and the SS did in the ghetto.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 21 June 2007 02:25 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Steven's point is the most important one made so far:

quote:
"Well now. Looking at a cached cv and Finkelstein's Wikipedia entry, a red flag for me is the fact that Finkelstein has been in the field for twenty years and apparently has never published a single peer-reviewed article. I looked on multiple search engines and the only journal articles I found were book reviews."

In Dershowitz's article that someone linked to, Dershowitz claims that Finkelstein doesn't read German. If that's true, that's a HUGE hole in his claim to be able to provide scholarship about the Holocaust. Really, to write about the judenraetten, you have to be able to read their records. Those records were required by the Nazis to be in German!

As for Dershowitz, he's pro-israeli, and a lot of what he has written about torture is garbage. It's hateful and dangerous. But I have read six or seven of D's books. His book on the Supreme Court decision Bush v. Gore is EXCELLENT. It's the best thing out there.

His book Preemption is an important analysis, legally well-grounded, of the rules which govern the apprehension of harm. For example, when is it ok to detain someone charmed with a crime, until his or her trial? When is it ok to ban a product which MAY be harmful, but MAY be beneficial, too? How do we deal with cases in which group X runs a RISK of harm, but group Y certainly benefits? And so on.

Dershowitz has also written a decent book on the roots of the Bill of Rights. I don't think it was really great scholarship, but it wasn't bad.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 21 June 2007 02:36 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
Daniel Drezner (a poli sci prof who was refused tenure at U of Chicago) wrote that, not me.

[/academic obligation to give credit where credit is due]


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contrarianna
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posted 21 June 2007 03:01 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
What exactly is the problem here? Is there ANY question that the Nazis were in and in control of the Warsaw ghetto? Finkelstein's mother aside...

Of course the Nazis controlled the Warsaw Ghetto. "The problem here" is re-direction, character assassination and smears.

Finklestein's mother


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 21 June 2007 04:40 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As far as Im aware, the only place where jews abused/tortured other jews was in the actual camps, under the 'kapo' system. Not in te ghettos, any of them
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 21 June 2007 04:49 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
As far as Im aware, the only place where jews abused/tortured other jews was in the actual camps, under the 'kapo' system. Not in te ghettos, any of them

I don't know what you mean by "abused/tortured". Why don't you do some reading about the Judenräte before you jump to hasty conclusions. My parents were still able to name names of some traitors that had made it to North America.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 21 June 2007 05:44 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
abused tortured pretty much says it all. The kapo system in the camps used jewish 'favoured' prisoners to keep others in line. Which most did with a relish.
quote:
Kapo was a term used for certain prisoners who worked inside the Nazi concentration camps during World War II in various lower administrative positions.

The German word may mean "foreman" and "non-commissioned officer", and is derived from French for "Corporal" (fr:Caporal) or the Italian word capo. Kapos received more privileges than normal prisoners, towards whom they were often brutal.



Elie Weisel wrote about them as well as others

quote:
everything is inverted, every value destroyed. "Here there are no fathers, no brothers, no friends," a Kapo tells him. "Everyone lives and dies for himself alone

[ 21 June 2007: Message edited by: Bacchus ]


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 21 June 2007 06:26 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Often though the Kapos were not Jews but thugs and criminals taken from other parts of the Camp.
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Bacchus
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posted 21 June 2007 06:27 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very true but it depends on the camp. At a extermination camp or a polish camp, it was usually other jews. At a strictly concentration camp in germany/austria then it usually would be a thug
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John K
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posted 21 June 2007 06:30 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
Has anybody checked out Finkelstein's website:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/index.php

He sure comes across as a spiteful and vindictive person.

Check out the 'Announcements' and scroll down a ways. One entry is titled 'Reverend Holtschneider's Friends Celebrate the Good News' and links to a really nasty article by an extreme Zionist. Another entry is titled: : 'More soulmates of Reverend Holtschneider Celebrate' which links to a couple of hate emails Finkelstein received. Both were posted on June 10, 2007.

Finkelstein's childish antics would be grounds for termination in most workplaces, not tenure.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 21 June 2007 06:54 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the link. It is an excellent web site. In fact, your post sounds bitter, vindictive, and childish. What was the point other than to provide an excellent bookmark?

For as long as anyone can remember, the Catholic Church has either abused power, or courted the favour of those who held power, and, in doing so, were all too willing to sell out the rights and the very lives of those they allegedly serve as well as anyone in the way. The Catholic Church, one might recall, failed to denounce Nazism and even, many argued, collaborated with the Nazi regime. The current Pope was a member of Hitler youth, for God's sake - but politics, especially the politics of evil - make for strange bedfellows.

DePaul University is simply maintaining a long tradition of the Catholic Church and institutions. Finkelstein was in the way of a powerful interest group (led by a man ruthless in his lies and who would make Goering proud) determined to crush academic debate in the interests of crushing a people and human rights. The Catholic Church has once more shamed its entire history and all who "believe".

[ 21 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 June 2007 07:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FM, lay off the personal attacks, please. People are allowed to criticize web sites.

The other day when taking a look at their sites, I thought that both Finkelstein's and Dershowitz's web sites are childish and undignified. What a couple of big babies, filling their web sites full of snipes at each other.

That said, I would still be interested in reading Finkelstein's books. I've never gotten around to it, but I will at some point.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 21 June 2007 07:19 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In fact, your post sounds bitter, vindictive, and childish. What was the point other than to provide an excellent bookmark?

So you don't think it's childish to insult the DePaul University President by claiming he is a 'friend' and 'soulmate' of lunatics who send hateful emails?


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Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 22 June 2007 03:39 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
As far as Im aware, the only place where jews abused/tortured other jews was in the actual camps, under the 'kapo' system. Not in te ghettos, any of them

Er, read Finkelstein's own words:

"Given how ferociously she cursed the Jewish councils, ghetto police and kapos, I assume my mother answered me truthfully. Although acknowledging that Jews initially joined the councils from mixed motives, she said that "only scum," reaping the rewards of doing the devil's work, still cooperated after it became clear that they were merely cogs in the Nazi killing machine. When queried why she hadn't settled in Israel after the war, my mother used to reply, only half in jest, that "I had enough of Jewish leaders!" The Jewish ghetto police always had the option, she said, of "throwing off their uniforms and joining the rest of us" -- a point that Yitzak Zuckerman, a leader of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, made in his memoir. (It was always gratifying to find my mother's seemingly erratic or harsh judgments seconded in the reliable testimonial literature.) Still shaking her head in disbelief, she would often recall how, after Jews in the ghetto used the most primitive implements or even bare hands to dig bunkers deep in the earth and conceal themselves, the Jewish police would reveal these hideouts to the Germans, sending their flesh-and-blood to the crematoria in order to save their own skins. One of the first acts of the ghetto resistance was to kill an officer in the Jewish police. On a sign posted next to his corpse -- my mother would recall with vengeful glee -- read the epitaph: "Those who live like a dog die like a dog."


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 22 June 2007 03:46 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by contrarianna:

This seems to be a variant of Dershowitz's sleazy
attack.Maryla Husyt Finkelstein


Not at all, read the above...


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 22 June 2007 03:47 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I don't know what you mean by "abused/tortured". Why don't you do some reading about the Judenräte before you jump to hasty conclusions. My parents were still able to name names of some traitors that had made it to North America.


Good for them!


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 22 June 2007 03:48 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So you don't think it's childish to insult the DePaul University President by claiming he is a 'friend' and 'soulmate' of lunatics who send hateful emails?

Do you know that he isn't?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 22 June 2007 03:51 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Very true but it depends on the camp. At a extermination camp or a polish camp, it was usually other jews. At a strictly concentration camp in germany/austria then it usually would be a thug

Not exactly, Auschwitz-Birkenau was both a labour camp and an extermination camp. Kapos were taken from the labour camp, usually east european non-Jews, murderers, rapists etc and put in charge of the Jews in Birkenau. The same was true for Maidanik, Chelmno, Sobibor. Though from time to time some Jews were Kapos they were forced to do the SS bidding while the thugs relished it.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 22 June 2007 03:52 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joel, you always manage to change the course of debate with smears.

quote:
He also caused a stir when he said his mother never saw a German in the Polish ghetto in which she lived and where the local population was persecuted.

And then

quote:
the Jewish police would reveal these hideouts to the Germans

Did she see Germans or didn't she? You are a student of Dearthowits?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 22 June 2007 03:57 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Finkelstein was in the way of a powerful interest group (led by a man ruthless in his lies and who would make Goering proud) determined to crush academic debate in the interests of crushing a people and human rights. The Catholic Church has once more shamed its entire history and all who "believe".

Michelle, FM gets to call Jews a "powerful interest group" and then compare the Jewish Allan Dershowitz to the murderous Nazi Goebbels and all FM gets is a slap on the wrist? Whats happening to this board?

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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Babbler # 8312

posted 22 June 2007 04:01 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle, FM gets to call Jews a "powerful interest group" and then compare the Jewish Allan Dershowitz to the murderous Nazi Goebbels and all FM gets is a slap on the wrist?

No I didn't. Are you implying that Jews are a powerful lobby group? Because that would be anti-semitic and you should be banned. Me, I am was speaking of the Israel lobby also known as apologists and defenders of racism. Many of that lobby aren't even Jewish but neo-cons (it even includes fascist, right wing evangelical Christians!) intent on an imperialist project and killing as many Arabs as necessary to steal their resources.

quote:

Whats happening to this board?


That's a good question. I have wondered why it is a progressive board that is supposed to be anti-racism allows the continued support and justification of open Israeli racism.

[ 22 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5647

posted 22 June 2007 04:03 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Joel, you always manage to change the course of debate with smears.

Did she see Germans or didn't she? You are a student of Dearthowits?



Again, Finkelstein told the Concordia audience at the speech I attended that she never saw a German.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 22 June 2007 04:06 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But the quote you provided suggests she did. You will have to forgive me if I don't take at your word what you heard. There is an emerging history ...

[ 22 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
bohajal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11492

posted 22 June 2007 04:14 AM      Profile for bohajal   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle, FM gets to call Jews a "powerful interest group" and then compare the Jewish Allan Dershowitz to the murderous Nazi Goebbels and all FM gets is a slap on the wrist? Whats happening to this board? - ohara

ohara,

The pro-Isreal lobby is not exclusive to Jews. And not all Jews are pro-Israel. FM did not say anything about Jews.

Please quit your attempts at intimidating people with your totally unfounded accusation of anti-semitism. Erodes your own credibility and will never fly.


From: planet earth, I believe | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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Babbler # 12553

posted 22 June 2007 08:18 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
Right "powerful interest group" nothing to do with Jews, and never mind the Jewish Dershowitz bieng compared to the Nazi murderer Goebbels, yes Frustrated Mess you are a saint and ohara a devil
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 June 2007 08:18 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FM explained himself. Let's move on.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553

posted 22 June 2007 08:47 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
I will move on as soon as you show me how he explained himself in comparing Dershowitz to Goebbels. Or is that OK in your view?
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 June 2007 08:48 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, you'll move on now. I'm done with this thread drift.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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Babbler # 4722

posted 22 June 2007 09:41 AM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Though from time to time some Jews were Kapos they were forced to do the SS bidding while the thugs relished it.

Sorry but no. There are enough accounts Ive read and people talked to that it was clear there were many jewish Kapos and they were cruel out of their own twisted personality, not anything the SS did.

Just like the majority of the guards and workers werent even german but from 'allied' states like Ukraine, Poland, hungary, etc


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
torontoprofessor
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Babbler # 14260

posted 22 June 2007 11:02 AM      Profile for torontoprofessor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by contrarianna:
An administrator's relation to actual academic research and teaching is often tenuous--

I have served on tenure committees in my own home department, where my relation to the actual academic research of the candidate is extermely tenuous. Unless the candidate is in my own subdiscipline, I cannot evaluate the candidate's work: a Shakespeare scholar is not in a position to evaluate the work of a Yeats scholar. At best, the Shakespeare scholar can render a judgement of competence, but is typically not in position to render a judgement of excellence. Such judgements are left to external and sometimes internal evaluators: committee members are charged with reading and weighing these evaluations. At the University of Toronto, committees have a mix of department members and extra-departmental members: the extra-departmental members have a vote, and are just as active in discussions and decision-making as the department members. In my experience, the best committee members were not those in the closest discipline or subdiscipline, but were rather those who had a lot of experience on tenure committees.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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Babbler # 13870

posted 22 June 2007 12:06 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
Right "powerful interest group" nothing to do with Jews, and never mind the Jewish Dershowitz bieng compared to the Nazi murderer Goebbels, yes Frustrated Mess you are a saint and ohara a devil

How come Israeli apologists insist that it's always wrong to compare Israel or Jews to Nazis or white supremacists but these same apologists feel free to throw such accusations at anti-Zionist Jews.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13870

posted 22 June 2007 12:08 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:


Again, Finkelstein told the Concordia audience at the speech I attended that she never saw a German.


So this in your view justifies undue Administrative interference in the Finkelstein tenure case?


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
torontoprofessor
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Babbler # 14260

posted 22 June 2007 12:19 PM      Profile for torontoprofessor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
So this in your view justifies undue Administrative interference in the Finkelstein tenure case?

A university's administration and president never ``interfere'' in any tenure case: they are an integral part of the tenure process.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 22 June 2007 12:27 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK but you've said you have a problem with THIS interference/decision. OTOH Joel Goldenberg, ohara and Petsy seem to be giving off the impression that Finkelstein is undeserving of tenure for reasons that have nothing to do with scholarship.
From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553

posted 22 June 2007 12:37 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
Max you sometimes astound me with your statements. I have read here time and again one specific question; why has Finkelstein NEVER been offered tenure at any academic institution he has ever taught at? Why? Duh could it be that he just does not meet the academic requirements necessary for tenure? Ya think?
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 22 June 2007 12:44 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why does it matter about these other colleges? At most of these places he WASN'T ON TENURE-TRACK. The political science department at DePaul University VOTED FOR TENURE. The administration opposed it but it was NOT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHOLARSHIP. It was because he lacked "collegiality." The "collegiality" criteria is opposed by the American Association of University Professors, and for good reason.

Are you being deliberately dense?

[ 22 June 2007: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
torontoprofessor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14260

posted 22 June 2007 01:21 PM      Profile for torontoprofessor     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
OK but you've said you have a problem with THIS interference/decision.

Yes, it is suspicious. DePaul's own guidelines regarding tenure are as follows: "The criteria for [tenure] decisions are the quality of the candidate’s 1. teaching and learning, 2. scholarship, research, and/or other creative activities, and 3. service to the university." I do have a problem with any tenure recommendation or tenure decision that does not adhere to these guidelines.

I suppose that I could imagine extreme circumstances in which other criteria might be used to deny a candidate tenure. Suppose that Professor X was found to have lied on his CV to get the job seven years earlier, but had maintained a productive scholarly record and had taught extremely well. Hmmm. Not sure. All I'm saying is that I can imagine extreme circumstances in which criteria beyond scholarship and teaching might be relevant. I have a vague memory of a tenured Yale professor being fired for "extreme moral turpitude" or something like that.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 22 June 2007 02:58 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
Why does it matter about these other colleges? At most of these places he WASN'T ON TENURE-TRACK. The political science department at DePaul University VOTED FOR TENURE. The administration opposed it but it was NOT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHOLARSHIP. It was because he lacked "collegiality." The "collegiality" criteria is opposed by the American Association of University Professors, and for good reason.

Are you being deliberately dense?

[ 22 June 2007: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


On Babble we try not to insult each other (unless of course you dont post and are only an eminent Professor like Allan Dersgowitz. Then you can call him all kinds of names even henious names like "Goebbels"), now the next question would be "why was he never on "TENURE-TRACK"? Could it be he did not have the scholastic qualifications?

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 22 June 2007 03:13 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Allan Dersgowitz

Oh, Dersgowitz! I thought you were talking about the propagandist, apologist for hate and racism, and all around scumbag Dearthowits! Sorry.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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Babbler # 4901

posted 22 June 2007 03:23 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Then you can call him all kinds of names even henious names like "Goebbels"), now the next question would be "why was he never on "TENURE-TRACK"? Could it be he did not have the scholastic qualifications?[/QB]

FYI it's much harder to land a tenured professorship than it used to be. There is a significant cohort of non-tenure track professors an "academic working class" so to speak, now.

Besides as has been pointed out numerous times: nobody at DePaul, not the political science department, not even the administration, is arguing that Finkelstein's scholarly credentials are lacking. But if Alan Dershowitz (who isn't really a scholar) says so, it must be true!


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
pookie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11357

posted 22 June 2007 04:05 PM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

FYI it's much harder to land a tenured professorship than it used to be. There is a significant cohort of non-tenure track professors an "academic working class" so to speak, now.


Granted, my experience is primarily in Canada (though I did grad work in the States) but this simply is not true. Demographic shifts have produced many more tenure-track hires over the last 7-8 years, a trend expected to continue for at least a few more years. It's true that some universities do rely more on contract/sessional hires, but still, I would regard a series of non-tenure track appointments (as opposed to sessional hires) as a sign that one is simply less attractive as a candidate.


From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 22 June 2007 07:30 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Havent been to York U much have you pookie? They have almost eliminated tenure there and its the same at much of the other universities too I hear. (grumbling from the profs)
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
pookie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11357

posted 22 June 2007 09:19 PM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Havent been to York U much have you pookie? They have almost eliminated tenure there and its the same at much of the other universities too I hear. (grumbling from the profs)

"Eliminated tenure"??! As a matter of fact I am familiar with York U and know many colleagues hired there on tenure track, and granted tenure, in the last few years.

[ 22 June 2007: Message edited by: pookie ]


From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8662

posted 23 June 2007 03:03 AM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
On Babble we try not to insult each other (unless of course you dont post and are only an eminent Professor like Allan Dersgowitz. Then you can call him all kinds of names even henious names like "Goebbels"), now the next question would be "why was he never on "TENURE-TRACK"? Could it be he did not have the scholastic qualifications?

Ohara, Alan Dershowitz is and intellectually dishonest man who plagiarized a fraud. I therefore consider it problematic that the administration of DePaul University gave any consideration to Dershowitz's opinion when they made the decision to deny Tenure to Norman Finklestein.

Ohara, do you have any evidence that Finklestein's scholarly credentials are lacking? And no, claims to that effect by Alan Dershowitz don't count.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 23 June 2007 04:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A now rhetorical question, as the thread is 100 posts long.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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