quote:

---

Publisher Random House has pulled a novel about the Prophet Mohammed's child bride, fearing it could "incite acts of violence."

"The Jewel of Medina," a debut novel by journalist Sherry Jones, 46, was due to be published on August 12 by Random House, a unit of Bertelsmann AG, and an eight-city publicity tour had been scheduled, Jones told Reuters on Thursday.

The novel traces the life of A'isha from her engagement to Mohammed, when she was six, until the prophet's death. Jones said that she was shocked to learn in May, that publication would be postponed indefinitely.

"I have deliberately and consciously written respectfully about Islam and Mohammed ... I envisioned that my book would be a bridge-builder," said Jones.

Random House deputy publisher Thomas Perry said in a statement the company received "cautionary advice not only that the publication of this book might be offensive to some in the Muslim community, but also that it could incite acts of violence by a small, radical segment."

---

Absolutely ridiculous. Random House is either putting out this press release to help their "anti-Muslim" street creds and further propagate the "all Muslims are violent" meme or they are too scared to publish something about religion.

quote:

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Originally posted by Robespierre:
Random House was always willing to play to popular politics when it was Random House, but now it's actually Bertelsmann AG, a German company. I have no inside info on the corporate chain of decision-making that went into this, nor have I read the text of the novel, but German business and their representatives in government go to great lengths not to offend Muslims; there are quite a few in Germany. The tension in all of Europe between Muslims and Christians has been explosive, to say the least. I'm not making any judgements yet, and I sure as hell don't support Bertelsmann AG, but these things occured to me.

---

Interesting background - thx Robespierre.

This quote from the author creeped me out:

quote:

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"They did have a great love story," Jones said of Mohammed and A'isha, who is often referred to as Mohammed's favorite wife. "He died with his head on her breast."

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The girl was like 6 yrs old!

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: Ghislaine ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:
The girl was like 6 yrs old!

---

Yeah, I am freaked out by that, too. Personally, I am not willing to accept adults marrying and having sexual relations with children, in any culture. I don't want to steer this thread into a discussion on my opinion about that but, yeah, freaked me out, too.

Hard to imagine a bridge being built between Sherry's idea of culture and the Muslim world, but, again, I haven't read the book, and my imagination can be limited. Maybe I'd support her book even if Muslim extremists ordered her death over it. Hard to say.

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: Robespierre ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by scooter:
Jones replies to allegations of sex in the book.

Who is telling the truth? The author says there is no sex in the book while Denise Spellberg, an associate professor of Islamic history at the University of Texas in Austin, claims it is full of soft porn.

---

It really is irrelevant whether it is soft porn or not.

Sven, thank you for the link - the chronology was interesting. It is hard to determine what Spellberg's motive's are.

From Nomani's piece (the first quote is from Spellberg.

quote:

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"I don't have a problem with historical fiction. I do have a problem with the deliberate misinterpretation of history. You can't play with a sacred history and turn it into soft core pornography."

After he got the call from Ms. Spellberg, Mr. Amanullah dashed off an email to a listserv of Middle East and Islamic studies graduate students, acknowledging he didn't "know anything about it [the book]," but telling them, "Just got a frantic call from a professor who got an advance copy of the forthcoming novel, 'Jewel of Medina' -- she said she found it incredibly offensive." He added a write-up about the book from the Publishers Marketplace, an industry publication.

The next day, a blogger known as Shahid Pradhan posted Mr. Amanullah's email on a Web site for Shiite Muslims -- "Hussaini Youth" -- under a headline, "upcoming book, 'Jewel of Medina': A new attempt to slander the Prophet of Islam." Two hours and 28 minutes after that, another person by the name of Ali Hemani proposed a seven-point strategy to ensure "the writer withdraws this book from the stores and apologise all the muslims across the world."

---

quote:

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"the pain of consummation soon melted away. Muhammad was so gentle. I hardly felt the scorpion's sting. To be in his arms, skin to skin, was the bliss I had longed for all my life."

---

Now, whether or not this was a direct quote of Aisha's is relative to the accusations made. If it wasn't a direct quote I personally, have an issue with her putting it in there.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Well, according to the WSJ article, Jones put this in:

Now, whether or not this was a direct quote of Aisha's is relative to the accusations made. If it wasn't a direct quote I personally, have an issue with her putting it in there.

She was not 6 years old when the marriage was consummated, there are historians views ranging it from 9-11 years old.

---

Why would you have an issue with it? It is categorized as a work of fiction. Sherry Jones herself states that she was 9-11 at consummation, but age 6 at marriage.

I thought Jones had some wise statements on her
blog

quote:

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woke up this morning amazed to find that debate and discussion around my book and the termination of its publication flurried into the wee hours and beyond on at least one website, the snarky http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com. On that site, topics have ranged from censorship to religious taboos to the inevitable question of the Prophet Muhammad's sexual proclivities (was he or was he not a pedophile?). It's been a joy to read.

On the other hand, I'm distressed to see THE JEWEL OF MEDINA and its termination used as a tool on other sites to promote divisiveness and hatred. There's an I-told-you-so-the-Muslims-are-evil attitude that makes me cringe. I started writing JEWEL for the pleasure of presenting A'isha to the western world; I finished it, and started its sequel, with the hope that these books would become bridge-builders to another culture and increase understanding of Islam as it was originally intended. I know I can't control the discourse, but I still harbor the highest, most idealistic hopes for these books. Let's keep it civil. And let's remember: There have been no terrorist threats over THE JEWEL OF MEDINA. Only warnings of possible threats.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Well, according to the WSJ article, Jones put this in:

---

quote:

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Originally posted by scooter:

Yes I read that too but that article is based on the word of Spellberg. Jones, the author, claims there is no sex in the book. That supposed passage you quoted reads like a sex scene to me.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:
Read the comment by Jones at the bottom of this thread

---

Hmm. Her books sounds like a powder keg waiting for a match. I guess almost any historic fiction would be. But, Sherry's comments at the link did not sound like great "bridge-building" material. No doubt, she is pissed off that her manuscript has been filed away indefinitely but defensive comments often come across as arrogant.

PS: I like how you're tracking this stuff down, Ghislaine, internet detective style. A true forumista is an investigative journalist, the rest, only dramaqueens.

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: Robespierre ]

Now, let's discuss the the skewing of perceptual framework you did, or tried to do, in your apparent tarring Islam and Mohammed.

You stated this quote of Jone's:

quote:

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They did have a great love story," Jones said of Mohammed and A'isha, who is often referred to as Mohammed's favorite wife. "He died with his head on her breast."

---

quote:

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This quote from the author creeped me out:

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quote:

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The girl was like 6 yrs old!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Ghislaine, my personal perceptions of it are my my own, and I clearly stated it was personal perception of my having a problem with it, if it was not a direct quote.

Now, let's discuss the the skewing of perceptual framework you did, or tried to do, in your apparent tarring Islam and Mohammed.

You stated this quote of Jone's:

As such, you were trying to create a conceptual framework that he married her at 6 years old, consummated it when she was 6 years old, and indeed died when she was 6 years old. And your use of "creeps me out" to forward it with, skews it towards a direction that he was pedeophile.

And frankly, I take full exception to what you have tried to do.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:
my tarring of Islam and Mohammed?

---

quote:

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If you would have read the link I had above, Jones states that in her book they are married at 11 and consummation occurs at age 14.

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quote:

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Has absolutely nothing to do with Mohammed or Islam.

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quote:

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However, it was a different time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robespierre:
Hmm. Her books sounds like a powder keg waiting for a match.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
awwwww, a little too late on trying to appear rational. You should have stated the truth from the beginning and contextualized it to a differing time, instead of pointing the "creepy" finger at Mohammed and Islam.

---

OK - I am not sure what your problem with me is.
I wrote the age of 6 as at the time that is what I knew. Then, when I found Ms. Jones' blog where she outlines the ages used in her book and what she concluded from her extensive research - I linked to it.

I also quote her dismay that this episode has been used to further the anti-Islam with the introduction that these are wise words.

Timeline:

Married at 6

Consummated between 9-11

Mohammed died when Aisha was 18.

As far as I can see, this early marriage and later consumation was no different that those children of "upper crust" lineage in Europe who were betothed when born, or in early childhood and who married by the age of 11 or 12, in former times.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
scooter, Ghislaine made it appear as if everything happened when Aisha was at the age of 6 years old.

Timeline:

Married at 6

Consummated between 9-11

Mohammed died when Aisha was 18.

As far as I can see, this early marriage and later consumation was no different that those children of "upper crust" lineage in Europe who were betothed when born, or in early childhood and who married by the age of 11 or 12, in former times.

Again, IMV, Ghislaine tried to slant perceptions of Mohammed and Islam by her use of "creeps me out" in respect to this.

---

I said it creeped me out due to the age and had nothing to do with Islam! Marriage and sex before the age of 18 creeps me out to this day for any religion or any atheist. This makes me more of a prude them most in every respect. My own daughters will be taught this.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
...Again, IMV, Ghislaine tried to slant perceptions of Mohammed and Islam by her use of "creeps me out" in respect to this.

---

She tried? Ya mean, with intent?? OMG.

Hmm, I wonder what HAL would have to say to that...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:
I said it creeped me out due to the age and had nothing to do with Islam! Marriage and sex before the age of 18 creeps me out to this day for any religion or any atheist. This makes me more of a prude them most in every respect. My own daughters will be taught this.

---

Ghislaine, as the subject you started deals with Mohammed and Islam, in today's climate of anti-Islam, what, and how, you say it is important.

You are a smart girl, I know that you know this.

As such, if indeed you did not mean anything against Islam, or Mohammed, then you could've perhaps stated what you just did, looked for evidence that A'isha was not 6 years old, before shooting off as if she was, or indeed contextualized it to the same practises that happened in Europe in previous times and stated that those practises creeped you out too.

Indeed, what would have been even better was not giving your personal opinion, at all, and left the topic to stand on its own subject, the book and it's being pulled.

ETD for clarity.

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

Why can't we all just get along and sing a song?

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Again, IMV, Ghislaine tried to slant perceptions of Mohammed and Islam by her use of "creeps me out" in respect to this.

---

I love Khaled. The guy is amazing. My favorite song of his is below.

quote:

---

Originally posted by scooter:
You can put me on record with Ghislaine and Robespierre that it creeps me out too. As for remind, sheesh, back off and stop only attacking the women on this thread.

---

Well, that's nice, the whole treatment of women/young girls, historically, creeps me out, not just this instance that appears to creep you 3 out so much.

And huh? There was/is no "women" in this thread, except for Ghislaine, and I. And I was NOT attacking her as a person, I was quite clearly taking exception to what she was saying and I also was exhibiting/debunking the false conceptual framework she created, whether it was done unconsciously, or not.

And scooter, I know you are pissy with me about your "Russia invading Georgia" thread, but please do get your facts straight and stop erroneously attacking me for allegedly attacking anyone let alone a bunch of "women" in this thread.

etd for clarity

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

This is my favourite Khaled tune, which he does live with Taha and Faudel.

I've posted his duet with canadienne Mylene Farmer singing Polnareff's "Poupée, before, but it's good enough for a second listen:

Remind is absolutely right in her description of medival (and later) European marriages which were entirely for dynastic purposes. Judging this outside of a cultural and historic context is absolutely meaningless, but given how the story has passed down through the ages, may very well make good grist for a historic romance novel. No one here, nor do contemporary Muslims support anything like this sort of marriage.

That the publication of this novel is a political hot topic has little to do with a 1400 year old history, and really little to do with Islam as it is currently practiced by hundreds of millions of Muslims worldwide. It has everything to do with struggles between resource seeking economic powers, globalization and economic colonialism.

Anything that sounds like Muslim bashing will be addressed according to practice and policy.

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

quote:

---

The novel is a luridly written amalgam of bodice-ripper and historical fiction centred on Aisha, the favourite wife of the prophet Muhammad. "Married at nine to the much-older Muhammad, Aisha uses her wits, her courage, and her sword to defend her first-wife status even as Muhammad marries again and again, taking 12 wives and concubines in all," the summary reads.

At one point the novel imagines the consummation of the marriage between Muhammad and Aisha: "The pain of consummation soon melted away. Muhammad was so gentle. I hardly felt the scorpion's sting. To be in his arms, skin to skin, was the bliss I had longed for all my life."

---

Jones by the way, researched for two whole years writing this novel. She's not Muslim by the way. (Somebody had to say it, okay? We drew straws over PM. I lost. )

The funny thing about voice appropriation, which nobody on this thread has mentioned is: Fine! White folks, write about whatever the hell you want to! Memoirs of a Geisha comes to mind. But you cannot escape being held accountable for the way in which you portray cultures/religions that you don't belong to. And yes, you will answer for stereotypical portrayals including racist and sexist ones, if they exist in the book, which I haven't read.

Random House didn't object to the voice appropriation, why should they? Their decision to publish the book was based on sales. They have made public their reasons for not publishing it, all a bunch of Islamphobic bullshit.

Jones will find a publisher for her book. I can't call it crap since I haven't read it, but if I want to read fiction about Muslim women's lives I sure as hell won't read Jones, who sounds like the classic white woman savior of those voiceless Muslim women.

From Jones' blog:

quote:

---

I woke up this morning amazed to find that debate and discussion around my book and the termination of its publication flurried into the wee hours and beyond on at least one website. (snip) On that site, topics have ranged from censorship to religious taboos to the inevitable question of the Prophet Muhammad's sexual proclivities (was he or was he not a pedophile?). It's been a joy to read.

On the other hand, I'm distressed to see THE JEWEL OF MEDINA and its termination used as a tool on other sites to promote divisiveness and hatred. There's an I-told-you-so-the-Muslims-are-evil attitude that makes me cringe. I started writing JEWEL for the pleasure of presenting A'isha to the western world; I finished it, and started its sequel, with the hope that these books would become bridge-builders to another culture and increase understanding of Islam as it was originally intended. I know I can't control the discourse, but I still harbor the highest, most idealistic hopes for these books. Let's keep it civil. And let's remember: There have been no terrorist threats over THE JEWEL OF MEDINA. Only warnings of possible threats.

---

I added the bold. It reveals Jones' agenda in way that she may not understand, and when I find some kick ass anti-racist blogs that comment on this issue I'll post them here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:

I said it creeped me out due to the age and had nothing to do with Islam! Marriage and sex before the age of 18 creeps me out to this day for any religion or any atheist. This makes me more of a prude them most in every respect. My own daughters will be taught this.

---

While Mohammad is criticized for marrying a 9-year old, people often fail to mention that the legal age of marriage for girls in Roman empire at the time was 12. In Middle ages in Europe, marrying at 13-14 was not uncommon. None of Mohammad's contemporaries, including his enemies, ever accused him of pedophilia for marrying a 9-year old. Mohammad's marriages were mainly political. The 9-year old Aisha was the daughter of his most influential supporter (and the first Caliph after him). In other cases, he married daughters of influential people or his trusted supporters to bond with them through blood relation. This was quite customary at his time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:
The funny thing about voice appropriation, which nobody on this thread has mentioned is: Fine! White folks, write about whatever the hell you want to! Memoirs of a Geisha comes to mind. But you cannot escape being held accountable for the way in which you portray cultures/religions that you don't belong to. And yes, you will answer for stereotypical portrayals including racist and sexist ones, if they exist in the book, which I haven't read.

Jones will find a publisher for her book. I can't call it crap since I haven't read it, but if I want to read fiction about Muslim women's lives I sure as hell won't read Jones, who [sounds like the classic white woman savior of those voiceless Muslim women.

---

Anyone has the right to comment on or criticize the cultures he or she does not belong too, white or non-white.

This politically correct approach of attempting to avoid any criticism of a supposedly oppressed culture is actually another face of European colonialist mindset that treats us non-European cultures as babies who need protection and should not be offended. Kind of good whites vs. bad whites approach.

Thanks but no thanks. Many of us are capable of handling criticism of our culture, and do not need such patronizing overprotection. This kind of politically correct mentality is as harmful as the past colonialist aggressions. Both would hold us back. Freedom of expression is one value that we have started to appreciate while some in the west seem to have forgotten its vital importance.

[ 08 August 2008: Message edited by: sanizadeh ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sanizadeh:
This politically correct approach of attempting to avoid any criticism of a supposedly oppressed culture is actually another face of European colonialist mindset that treats us non-European cultures as babies who need protection and should not be offended. Kind of good whites vs. bad whites approach.

Thanks but no thanks. Many of us are capable of handling criticism of our culture, and do not need such paternalistic overprotection. This kind of politically correct mentality is as harmful as the past colonialist aggressions. Both would hold us back. Freedom of expression is one value that we have started to appreciate while some in the west seem to have forgotten its vital importance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sanizadeh:

Anyone has the right to comment on or criticize the cultures he or she does not belong too, white or non-white.

This politically correct approach of attempting to avoid any criticism of a supposedly oppressed culture is actually another face of European colonialist mindset that treats us non-European cultures as babies who need protection and should not be offended. Kind of good whites vs. bad whites approach.

Thanks but no thanks. Many of us are capable of handling criticism of our culture, and do not need such patronizing overprotection. This kind of politically correct mentality is as harmful as the past colonialist aggressions. Both would hold us back. Freedom of expression is one value that we have started to appreciate while some in the west seem to have forgotten its vital importance.

---

Sherry Jones embarked on fictionalizing the story of Mohammad's young bride Aisha as her first foray into writing fiction. From the reviews I read, she might as well be writing for Harlequin Romances. Of course, that would require making the whole premise fantasy but instead she chose to dramatize a historical relationship. You have to wonder why she would choose that subject and why Random House would sign her on given her non-existent track record? Could it be that anything that demonized Islam was considered profitable?

Rushdie at least has life experience to write about that may condemn Islam but Ms. Jones is just jumping on a cash cow opportunity that is tinged with a predisposition to paint Muslim people in the worst possible light.

These are my words:

quote:

---

The funny thing about voice appropriation, which nobody on this thread has mentioned is: Fine! White folks, write about whatever the hell you want to! Memoirs of a Geisha comes to mind. But you cannot escape being held accountable for the way in which you portray cultures/religions that you don't belong to. And yes, you will answer for stereotypical portrayals including racist and sexist ones, if they exist in the book, which I haven't read.

---

Perhaps you all need some reading comprehension tips.

I await reports of your success with bated breath.

As for Sherry Jones, this whole thing is a non-issue. Someone writes a (no doubt) third rate novel and someone (Random House) decides not to publish it, all surrounded with Islamophobic innuendo.

Doesn't Jones know she can publish her masterpiece on the internet?

Random House won't publish my collected babble postings either.

Censorship!!!!!!

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
Man, I wonder why people are so much more concerned with this tripe than the real problems in our own country.

---

There is nothing here to indicate that Jone's book is more than soft core kiddie porn, with an additional element of "Islamicness" to add extra-spice to the licentious scandal. Edward Said carefully outlined how taboo western morale prohibitions have often been circumvented in western art by contextualizing them in an "oriental" frame -- see Arabian Nights. BCG: "Memoirs of a Geisha comes to mind." It is unlikely that this novel would even have been up for consideration for publications were it set in a western frame, say among Mormons.

In the end, Said also noted how such Orientalist literature and art, says as much about western sexual obsessions as those of the east. The fact that some are suggesting that this novel is a good place for a serious critique of some Islamic marriage practices and traditions, also, in my view, says as much about them as it does about Islam, or Mohammed.

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
The most interesting point I've gleaned so far from this thread is Ghislaine's determination to teach her (future) daughters not to have sex before the age of 18.

---

She is not going to just teach "her" girls not to have sex before 18, she is going to teach them it is "creepy" to do so, one would have to say. However, they are "her" children, so I guess she feels she can emotionally abuse them however, she wants.

quote:

---

I await reports of your success with bated breath.

---

-------------------------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Censorship!!!!!!

---

There is no censorship here other than self censorship by Random House.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:
Reuters:

Absolutely ridiculous. Random House is either putting out this press release to help their "anti-Muslim" street creds and further propagate the "all Muslims are violent" meme or they are too scared to publish something about religion.

Either way it stinks and she should try with another publisher.

---

Just for the record, this was my original analysis. RH is putting out an Islamaphobic press release to show that they are as anti-Islam as the next person. who knows maybe the entire thing is a marketing ploy for Jones and she will end up publishing with a subsidiary of RH.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:
There is no censorship here other than self censorship by Random House.

---

Heads up, we can and do. I see that that you deliberately decided to take/use unionist's mocking sarcasm, and create a foil that unionist was actually calling censorship, that you could knock down and try to covertly bash "others" with.

As this below of yours, was just a piss poor attempt to do that.

quote:

---

If Random House has terminated its publishing contract with Jones because of RH's fear of violence, then it would be a victory for those extremists who would advocate violence in response to the publication of a book like this (see Danish Cartoons controversy).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:

Just for the record, this was my original analysis. RH is putting out an Islamaphobic press release to show that they are as anti-Islam as the next person. who knows maybe the entire thing is a marketing ploy for Jones and she will end up publishing with a subsidiary of RH.

What is wrong with waiting until age 18, btw?

---

Your original post doesn't have the proper loose ends required for pulling it apart and using it as proof that you are an arab-hater who deserves a virtual beating.

Oh, hi, everyone! Check dis!

This here's the Self-Righteous Super Windbag Fan. This badboy can really blow stuff out of proportion, and is simple to operate, Even folks who haven't raised children or been sexually molested in childhood can throw the switch and blow, blow, blow, like no other product on the market. Makes you an expert windblower in minutes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robespierre:
Your original post doesn't have the proper loose ends required for pulling it apart...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Well, actually, I worded that poorly, I should have worded it more along the lines of: "you believe that you are so smart, that none of us here can/could keep up with your intellectual methodology."

---

You know, that is one of the more common mistakes people make in discussions: Assuming what another person believes, intends, or is thinking.

The fact of the matter is: You don’t.

Example:

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
I see that that you deliberately decided to take/use unionist's mocking sarcasm, and create a foil that unionist was actually calling censorship, that you could knock down and try to covertly bash "others" with.

---

I agree with unionist that this isn’t “censorship”. He was mockingly calling this affair “censorship”.

As usual, this is just another...

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
...“piss poor attempt”…

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Wow, sven, way to expose your self further, there is no need to mind read, or even make assumptions, your actions/words are blatently obvious, almost always, and if that was the case, that you agreed with unionist, you would NOT have put your last sentence in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldgoat:
P_B, stop stirring things up. Remember, I know where you live!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
It's nice to see Sven and M. Spector applaud their right to criticize Islam, however. I must have missed the part when someone said it was in jeopardy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papal Bull:
Just a question. Would you talk like this in real life, or is this just sort of a POWER OF THE ANONYMOUS thing unique to the internet?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catchfire:
You won't get very far,robespierre, calling a former anti-racism moderator a 'self-righteous windbag,' no matter how many 'witty' photoshop images you put up.

---

Whoa, if that windbag thing was aimed at BCG, then I missed that completely - did I misread the intent? I kind of thought it was aimed at the thread in general because people were arguing, but if this was actually a swipe at BCG, then I totally DON'T think that it's "cute but off-topic" as I stated in my earlier post.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
How about I ask you the same thing papal bull, seeing as how you have not made one comment in this thread other than to step in right now and try to attack me?

Got anything to say about the latent anti-Islam framework trying to be created, time and again in this thread?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papal Bull:
However, I also feel that digging for Islamophobic criterion on this board is a little useless. Call it out where it really exists,

---

quote:

---

but don't make accusations more than need be.

---

quote:

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I have serious doubts that anyone here is a genuine "we gotsta get them there Muhammedeins" sort of person.

---

quote:

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I think that there is a sliding scale of what is seen as acceptable, and that too often on babble people just get way too bundled up with their own baggage to sit back and digest what is being said before going on the offensive...and I think that includes pretty much everyone on this place.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:

Whoa, if that windbag thing was aimed at BCG, then I missed that completely - did I misread the intent? I kind of thought it was aimed at the thread in general because people were arguing, but if this was actually a swipe at BCG, then I totally DON'T think that it's "cute but off-topic" as I stated in my earlier post.

Robespierre, please clarify. And in future, please don't inject stuff like this into threads that are already tense or have serious discussions happening in them...

---

Sorry, everyone, I shouldn't have posted that photo of the windbag fan. You are correct, Michelle.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robespierre:
Sorry, everyone, I shouldn't have posted that photo of the windbag fan. You are correct, Michelle.

---

quote:

---

No, I wasn't swiping at BCG, actually, I didn't even think of her. BGC's contribution to the thread was civilized.

---

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

Dop you see yourself as the foremost purveyour of what is civilized Robes?

As I see you as:

---

Nah, I can be self-critical.

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: scooter ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
Thanks Remind for exposing this thread for what it was. I don't have a fancy picture though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:

What is wrong with waiting until age 18, btw?

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That was exactly my question to my gf way back when. Her reply: "No f***in' way!"

On a more serious note, people can have sex or not whenever they choose, but I was just a little amused at the thought of someone who hasn't yet had children planning, in advance, how they're going to teach "their" "daughters" to "wait" till 18.

What's wrong with having sex when you're 17? or 16? or trying to raise a child to make these decisions for themselves? If you're going to teach your kid to abstain from some human activities, how about violence, or ignorance, or exploitation? And I wouldn't put an age limit on those.