A lot of feminists are pretty divided on this issue and I'm confused by a few grey areas myself. I guess some of my questions after reading the article are:
1.Would regulating prostitution be the same as legitimizing it, as the local rape relief shelter spokesperson fears?
2.Is there really any meaningful distinction we can make between prostitution and other exploitative forms of labour?
3.Is the drive to regulate the sex trade largely fuelled by male concerns about std's and fears of social stigmatization (i.e. if prostitution is legal, johns are no longer predators but patrons)as Lang's comments seem to indicate.

Thoughts anyone?

(I really hate linking to the province, such a poorly written rag, but the Sun didn't carry this story.)

Province story link here.

[ 02 May 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

quote:

---

"Not every guy can afford $600 an hour at Madame Cleo's, and even crackheads have to eat," Davis said. "It criminalizes poverty."

---

This is what resonated with me. No matter what happens, there is always going to be someone willing to provide a five dollar throw in a dark doorway for their next fix.

quote:

---

I've been all over the place on prostitution, from banning to complete acceptance and all I've learned is that I've got a lot more to learn. I don't know if what we are doing is the best thing but I'm willing to try something different to see if we can fix some of the problems.

---

It will never go away - we need to make it as safe as possible, and create as many supported avenues out of the sex trade as we can for the practitioners who want out.

I'd like one province to maybe try out a fully open and up-front attitude about prostitution. Legal brothels, protected street-walkers, managed health programs and the like.

One issue that I'm torn would be the prostitute version of the porn industry's aids blacklist. It would be prudent from everyones perspective to restrict legal work to clean prostitutes and johns but the reality of the trade is that they'd still be working, just in an unrelegulated environment.

Perhaps registered prostitutes who fail the health guidelines would be entitled to some sort of disability funding and/or retraining.

Of course, this creates two tiers of prostitution but it can be argued that we already have several tiers (escort, masseuse, streetwalker, kid streetwalker). Most cities license masseuses & escorts for absolutely exorbiant license rates, which creates two or more tiers already. You virtually never hear of these workers being assaulted, murdered, or raped. Why? Because they operate under some legal protection.

quote:

---

Arguments that legalizing it or regulating it will make 'Johns' legal are beside the point, IMO.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Granola Girl:
[QB]A lot of feminists are pretty divided on this issue and I'm confused by a few grey areas myself. I guess some of my questions after reading the article are:
1.Would regulating prostitution be the same as legitimizing it, as the local rape relief shelter spokesperson fears?
2.Is there really any meaningful distinction we can make between prostitution and other exploitative forms of labour?
3.Is the drive to regulate the sex trade largely fuelled by male concerns about std's and fears of social stigmatization (i.e. if prostitution is legal, johns are no longer predators but patrons)as Lang's comments seem to indicate.
[ 02 May 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

---

1. Yes. Any step towards treating prostitution as anything other than a criminal exercise would send some kind of a signal that a lot of moralizers wouldn't like to see.

I checked out the Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres; here's their site:

http://www.casac.ca/

Curious. There's a three-year old note about a march in France to protest the criminalization of prostitution by the French government:

http://www.casac.ca/text/issues/prostitution_criminalization.cfm

While I don't hold with their stance on recovered memory, the org looks like, basically, an anti-violence against women sort of thing. Pretty kosher, so far as I'm concerned.

I wonder how they got to suddenly opposing prostitution? Unless they lump it into violence against women (which does have a point, but . . .).

2. Um, yes. Most workers usually only get metaphorically fucked, not literally. And labour, by definition under capitalism, is inherently exploited/-tative.

In the abolish vs regulate debate the one thing that often gets lost is that these women are usually forced to enter the sex trade either by coersion or due to a lack of any other option. They want out. If all these women had other options the sex trade would cease to exist. Legalizing or regulating the sex trade does not prevent men from forcing women to be prostitutes. The Swedish model addresses that by putting the onus on men to stop buying.

Read the attached article. It makes too much sense.

quote:

---

If all these women had other options the sex trade would cease to exist.

---

Great. All we need is a few thousand jobs for people with typically minimal education that pay a few hundred dollars a day. Suggestions?

I could suggest social assistance, or taking a peek at the Want Ads now and again, but realistically neither of these is going to allow anyone to support any kind of substance habit, nor "live large" in any real way, but they're definitely options that many women and men have managed to make work, at least to the point that they're not "forced" into prostitution.

After farming, prostitution is the oldest trade in the book. To think that it will ever go away is a little misguided.

There are many people out there for whom the services of a prostitute can be their only form of sexual intimacy or release (excluding self-release). For them, being able to get serviced is almost a basic need and if people are in the market who want to do it, then go for it.

There are a large number of agencies who can help get prostitutes who don't want to be on the street off the street and into rehab if necessary. The problem lies afterwards, when they fall into old habits. Their job dries up, they take a drink, run into a john in what was thought to be a safe environment (imagine applying for a job and the interviewer is the john), run into a friend from the old days, or just decide that making $80 per throw is better than $80 per day.

The problem with a lifestyle is that it can follow you for a mighty long time. I've often thought that people who come out of the trade be given an option to move to a town/city where they haven't work as a prostitute so that they can make a clean break.

Prostitutes are in fact victims of male lust, but more specifically male power and control.

quote:

---

it certainly doesn't address the large number of people in the trade because they like the work and/or money.

---

Do you really think that the majority of prostitutes choose to sell their bodies because they enjoy it...because they think it is a great career opportunity?

Many prostitutes have been repeated victims of male violence before, during and after being prostitutes. Many begin as homeless teenagers. Many do so in escape of abusive parents or abuse spouses. Trafficing women around the world is a huge industry. These are facts (although disputed by patriarchal types for self serving reasons).

You can't assume they are choosing to do this therefore everything is okay. Just legalize it and let men have there pleasure in clean and safe brothels. That is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that these women do not have many or any options. Men want to believe women choose to do this because then they don't have to feel guilty about using women as sex objects. Men don't want to think of prostitutes as people with feelings who don't actually want your dick in their mouth.

If the Swedish model is working why not give it a try. I'll tell you why: because the men that control most of the power in our country refuse to come to the realization that this is an issue of violence against women as opposed to a career choice. There favourite arguement in favour of the status quo is that "it has always been this way and it always will be. There is nothing you can do about it. Horny men will find a way to get their rocks off." That is a complete cop-out. It is an excuse for not making real change and it provides legitimacy to the notion that men are entitled to use women's bodies for pleasure, whether they like it or not.

There are many different types of people involved in prostitution. Some of them are there because they have no other options. None of us have denied that. Some are there because they like the work. Some are there because they've made a decision that the economics work for them.

The most important thing to remember is that there is no one solution to solve the issues surrounding prostitution in canada. The swedish model is not only intrinsically sexist, it address only the streetwalker side of the industry. What about the high-priced who are in it for either the money or because they love the work? That doesn't help them and treats them like victims when they aren't.

It is most certainly not a cop-out to acknowledge that prostitution will always exist. It isn't an artifact of western civilization. It isn't an artifact of a patriarchical society. Heck, it isn't even just a human issue. Someone posted recently (I don't remeber if it was here or on FD) that some chimp females would prostitute themselves for food, security, or nesting locations. It will happen and will continue to happen. It will happen as long as people give sex for some form of acceptance or security.

To eliminate prostitution would take a fundamental change in the psyche of humanity. To ban it is to take away someones right to chose.

quote:

---

Do you really think that the majority of prostitutes choose to sell their bodies because they enjoy it...because they think it is a great career opportunity?

---

That sets the bar deliberately high. I don't think most people go into retail sales because they think it's a great career opportunity either. But I do think it offers certain benefits that may not seem valuable to you or me, but might to someone else. As a prostitute (and I'm not referring to a destitute, AIDS-crippled, crack addict with one shoe), you can:

- work when you want
- charge what you want
- take a day off anytime
- drink, smoke or use drugs on the job
- get up at noon
- work for cash

You don't need to:

- adhere to a company dress code
- pay taxes
- have any form of education, training or certification
- pay any licence fees
- maintain a work wardrobe, vehicle, facility or any other business expense

And you get to make comparatively good money — in cash!

This may not have much appeal for you or me, but if you chose to drop out of school in grade 10, or if you have a child, or if you use illegal (and therefore quite expensive) drugs, then the idea of a relatively easy job that pays fast cash would certainly have some appeal, no?

I believe the same to be true of other sex trades as well. If you can get past the idea of showing off your body in public, you can earn a fair amount as an exotic dancer, and again, you need nothing other than the willingness to disrobe and squirm around. You don't need training or education, you can roll into work at 4pm, etc.

quote:

---

You can't assume they are choosing to do this therefore everything is okay.

---

I don't think I'm assuming that every prostitute has had the same life experiences and is choosing prostitution for the same reasons. But I think you are. I'm all for support systems for those who are truly victimized, and decriminalization for those who aren't.

I can admit that some women have been driven into prostitution by circumstance and need help from us.

Can you admit the opposite? That many haven't been "victimized" into it, and should be permitted to do as they wish with their own bodies, including earning an income with them?

I've found that most people who take your opinion are also of the opinion that there's an ideal sexual relationship that we're all supposed to want, and that anything else is some kind of abomination or perversion of the human spirit. Typically, the belief is that sex is supposed to be a "loving" way of communicating, an intimate exchange, a joyous celebration of something, or some other over-romanticized notion. It's the attempt to force everyone to adopt that moral view of sex that I find most distressing.

Does that describe you? Do you believe that selling sex is worse than selling backrubs, because sex is "Supposed to be....?"

quote:

---

It is an excuse for not making real change and it provides legitimacy to the notion that men are entitled to use women's bodies for pleasure, whether they like it or not.

---

Of course men aren't "entitled" to "use" womens' bodies, but occasionally we're allowed, with permission. From there it's hardly a leap to imagine that that permission might come with a price tag. If women are allowed to have sex with anyone they want for free, what's your real motivation for denying them the right to do the same thing, but charge a fee?

I don't have a right to a massage from a masseuse. But if I agree to the fee, I might get one. Why should she have to run her hands all over my sweaty, hairy male body?, you may ask. Well, she doesn't. But if she wants to offer the service, and I want to pay her for it, then that's that.

Most people have no problem with this concept, assuming the pleasure gained by the massage is sexless. If the man becomes aroused then suddenly he's a pervert and she's a victim, even if both of them agreed to that arousal in advance.

Here's my question for you though: many prostitutes, strippers, porn stars and other sex workers have come forward in the last decade or two to say "We're not victims and please stop infantilizing us". These are women (and men) who are obviously capable of understanding what they're doing and know better than either you or I what consequences their choice has. How do you answer them?

Do you assume they're stupid, and you're not, so they need to you see for them?

Do you assume they're "brainwashed" or "hypnotized" and therefore they need you to think for them?

quote:

---

your blanket assumption about prostitutes being victims flies in the face of a persons right to chose what they do with their body

---

Society has a role in protecting citizens even in situations where they are presumed to be only affecting themselves. For example, I cannot inject drugs into my body. It is my body but the law says I am not free to choose to do that. That said, there is a societal impact to prostitution. It is not just about a particular individuals choice. The post-implementation study in Sweden showed that the legislation all but eliminated the organized crime and girl-trafficking elements of the sex trade and eliminated street prostitution. So that is a bad thing why? From what I can see that just leaves discreet "private entrepreneurs". Even law enforcement now things it is fantastic legislation.

quote:

---

To punish someone for buying what someone else is selling is to take away their livelihood. Banning the purchasing of sex will not stop prostitution, only drive it underground and increase the risk to the providers.

---

So I guess drug pushers should be free to sell their products as well...how about kiddie porn...or child prostitution. There are boundaries to free enterprise as well. Once again choice is not an absolute.

quote:

---

many prostitutes, strippers, porn stars and other sex workers have come forward in the last decade or two to say "We're not victims and please stop infantilizing us".

---

As for your diatribe about the prostitutes, porn stars, and strippers of the world uniting to say, "leave us alone..we are alright" is ridiculous. I have no doubt that some women have probably said such things and some of them probably even believe it but don't kid yourself...they are not the majority. What you are really talking about are a few rich porn stars, not street walking hookers. You are just choosing to extrapolate it to all sex related jobs in order to justify your desire to keep the "sex for sale" sign open...but your eyes are closed to the real problem. You continue to only look at it from a male perspective. You are probably the type of person that thinks the lap dancer is enjoying you as much as you are her...meanwhile, she is actually disgusted.

If a man and woman above the age of consent agree to a sexual act and money is exchanged, why is that anyone's business (immediate spouses and family members excluded but you don't need to exchange cash to cheat)?

Decriminalize prostitution and instead criminalize with harsh penalties pimping, slavery, sexual exploitation, sexual extortion, and child prostitution and other crimes associated with exploitation and abuse.

quote:

---

Mr. Magoo, you seem to be of the opinion that a 16 year old girl sucking off a 65 year old man in the front seat of his Lincoln for $40 is no different than a massage. Of course, one big difference is that this 16 year old gets beat up by her pimp, gives him more than 1/2 the money and is afraid for her life. She didn't "choose" to drop out of school in grade 10, she ran away from her molester father. Is this the profile of every prostitute? NO.

---

As you seem to understand that not all prostitutes are underage girls, why do you seem so insistent on pretending they are and making laws accordingly??

I thought I had made it clear that I recognize that many prostitutes are in need of help and protection. I would certainly consider a 16 year old to be one of those.

Now that that's over with, could we please also talk about the 35 year old who isn't being beaten by her pimp? What's your take on her?

quote:

---

As for your diatribe about the prostitutes, porn stars, and strippers of the world uniting to say, "leave us alone..we are alright" is ridiculous.

---

Uh, it's not a 'diatribe'. I'm merely pointing out that these advocates exist and I'm asking your take on them. Probably the oldest of them is COYOTE, founded in 1973 to counter, well, your kind of thinking.

The founder, Margo St. James, was a prostitute, not a rich porn star. Feel free and deny her existence if that's convenient for you. Just be sure and let her know. Nothing's more embarrassing than acting as though you exist when you don't.

quote:

---

You are just choosing to extrapolate it to all sex related jobs in order to justify your desire to keep the "sex for sale" sign open...but your eyes are closed to the real problem.

---

Once more, I did not attempt to paint all prostitutes with the same brush. Please don't make me point this out again. Write it on your hand if you need to.

quote:

---

You are probably the type of person that thinks the lap dancer is enjoying you as much as you are her...meanwhile, she is actually disgusted.

---

You're letting your emotions get the better of you.

A study of 90 kerb crawlers in the West Yorkshire area of England found that over 50 per cent of the men attending felt that their prostitute use had a direct bearing on their views of and relationships with women (Hanmer and Bindel, 2000). A number of men admitted that they thought of the women they accessed in prostitution as `objects to be used'. One remarked that having sex for money was "just like using a slot machine", and another told how he used prostitutes in order to "satisfy a basic need. Just like eating".

A three-city comparison (Glasgow, Edinburgh and Leeds) involved 240 women working in indoor and street locations completing questionnaires (Church et al, 1991). Almost two thirds (63%) reported violence from customers, and over a third (37%) had been assaulted in the three months prior to the survey. Women working on the street reported higher levels of violence and injury. The researchers note, however, that the mere fact of working indoors does not protect women from violence - both rape and serious physical assaults occurred in off street locations.

Even higher levels of violence were reported in Melissa Farley's (1998) five country study, involving 475 women and men in South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, and Zambia. Across the whole sample 73 per cent reported physical assault in prostitution, 62 per cent reported having been raped since entering prostitution; and for between a third and half of those who had been raped this involved more than five separate incidents. We can conclude, therefore, that the majority of those involved in prostitution experience violence at some point from customers.

Legalisation encourages the growth of the sex industry. There has been a significant increase in the number of brothels in Victoria, Australia, since legalisation, the number of legitimate brothels grew from 40 in 1989 to 94 in 1999 (Raymond 2002).

Child prostitution in the Netherlands has significantly increased during the last ten years. The ChildRight organisation in Amsterdam estimates that there are now more than 15,000 children (primarily girls) being prostituted, an increase of eleven thousand since1996. Five thousand of these children are thought to be from other countries, mainly Nigeria (Tiggloven, 2001).

Violence against women in prostitution does not seem to have decreased in the Netherlands or Victoria since legalisation, and there are even suggestions that it has increased. (Jeffreys 1997, Daley 2001). A report by the Australian Institute of Criminology in 1990 found that many prostitutes in legal brothels were at a high risk of violence (TA, 1990, p 4).

There were more services for women in street prostitution than in other forms of prostitution (Australia Country Report). Women in street prostitution have experienced increased difficulty in exiting. The normalisation of prostitution leads to lack of support services, as these are often curtailed by brothel owners (Sullivan and Jeffreys 2000).

Regulation of prostitution in Ireland, and elsewhere, has not severed the links with organised crime. There are growing numbers of trafficked women in Ireland, and brothels are on the increase. In 2002, the Justice Minister announced that there will be an additional 200 officers assigned to a special police immigration bureau, mandated to counter-trafficking operations, making a total of 321. The move follows "increasing concern at the extent to which Ireland is being targeted by trans-national organised-crime gangs for the purposes of trafficking".

quote:

---

I could go on and on but I think it is your turn to show me some detailed studies that show the benefits (or at least the lack of negative effects) of prostitution.

---

I haven't claimed that legalizing prostitution is, by itself, going to cure the world's ills. All I've suggested is that not all prostitutes are "victims". I'm sorry you wasted so much time rounding up victim studies, but surely you realize these don't disprove my thesis.

http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html#050324

quote:

---

I haven't claimed that legalizing prostitution is, by itself, going to cure the world's ills. All I've suggested is that not all prostitutes are "victims".

---

You prefer to believe that the more prevalent situation is free willed women that are making conscious decisions to choose to be prostitutes, they enjoy it, thrive at it, and just want safer working conditions. You say that "not all prostitutes are victims". So I ask: what is an accepted percent. If only 20% are victims, is that okay. Is 30% okay. At what point does "victimization" become prevalent enough to justify action as opposed to acceptance.

That said, in order for your arguement to hold any water at all you have assume that prostitutes are old enough to make the adult decision to enter the sex trade and that the majority do so willingly. However, there is study after study that proves both of those notions are false. First of all most prostitutes begin their "careers" well before the age of 18 and most have been the victims of sexual assault, usually incest.

The Badgley Committee (1984) reported that almost half of their respondents entered prostitution before the age of 15. Lowman and Fraser (1996) found the average age of entry was 16.3 years for females and 15.6 years for males. Research conducted in Victoria, British Columbia revealed 15.5 years as the average age for entering into prostitution (Report of the Sexually Exploited Youth Committee of the Capital Regional District, 1997). In general, the literature indicates that most prostitutes entered the sex trade before the age of 18 (and many before the age of 16). Source: Justice Canada

The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 found that: 85 percent of their prostitute clients reported history of sexual abuse in childhood while 70 percent reported incest.

66% of all prostitutes are victims of child sexual abuse; 2/3 of these are sexually abused by fathers, stepfathers, or foster fathers. Silbert, Mimi H. “Treatment of Prostitute Victims of Sexual Assault.” Victims of Sexual Aggression, eds. Stuart, Irving & Greer, Joanne. Von Nostrand Reinhold, 1984.

The best case scenario from any of the surveys and studies that I have ever seen would indicate that prostitutes start by the age of 17 and more than 1/2 were victims prior to entering the sex trade. That is best case. Reality is probably even uglier than that.

quote:

---

So I ask: what is an accepted percent. If only 20% are victims, is that okay. Is 30% okay. At what point does "victimization" become prevalent enough to justify action as opposed to acceptance.

---

Nobody is "accepting" anything. We already have laws to deal with assault, theft, rape or any other crime that a prostitute may be the victim of. Don't confuse violent johns with any and all men paying for sex. And especially don't purposely confuse them. They're not the same, and they don't need a blanket law that covers them both.

We know, and have always known, the link between drinking and violence. Would you suggest the answer is to outlaw alcohol? Or should we make all drinkers guilty of violent crimes? Or... could we deal with violent drinkers using existing laws against violence while allow non-violent drinkers to continue drinking alcohol?

quote:

---

That said, in order for your arguement to hold any water at all you have assume that prostitutes are old enough to make the adult decision to enter the sex trade and that the majority do so willingly.

---

I've made no attempt to endorse or accept underage girls forced into prostitution. Once they're adults, however, should I not assume they're old enough to make an adult decision?

And why shouldn't I assume the majority of prostitutes are doing so willingly? The majority of Canadians living under adverse economic conditions are not prostitutes. Obviously alternatives exist. Note that I'm not talking here about someone genuinely forced, eg: by a boyfriend, into prostitution. But again we have always had laws against that and I don't see that we need new ones.

quote:

---

well adjusted, consenting, willing, enterprenerial

---

Heh. I wonder what percentage of any occupation could reasonably be described as well adjusted or entrepreneurial? I don't see those as necessary condtions if we are to not criminalize prostitution. Consenting and willing, obviously. But as I've said, we already have laws against living off the avails of prostitution, and nobody on this thread, nor anywhere on babble that I've personally ever seen, is suggesting that pimps should be able to force any woman of any age into prostitution.

quote:

---

It's getting harder not to believe that your constant emphasis on violent johns and underage girls is simply a distractor to allow you to punish non-violent men and "rescue" adults from themselves. Why else would you keep insisting we need sweeping new laws to criminalize all johns when we already have laws to penalize the ones you're insisting are the problem in the first place?

---

First of all my emphasis has not been on violent johns, although that is much more prevalent than you choose to believe. My emphasis is on the fact that the vast majority of prostitutes do not choose to enter the sex trade for two reasons. First of all, you can't consent prior to the are of 18 and the majority enter the sex trade prior to 17. You insist on allowing adults the freedom to choose this 'career' however they made the 'career' choice as a child. Secondly, since the majority of prostitutes have been victims of sexual abuse and incest prior to making that decision, the decision is largely influenced by that past experience. Sexually abused children get self-esteem and self worth from sex because that is what they were taught from an early age. That their value is linked to their body and sexual acts.

The facts about the average entry age, their past histories, and the effects of their past are not in dispute and you have provided no information to counter that arguement except to say that once these children are 25 they should be permitted to do what they want. I'm not concerned so much with the rights of the 25 year old so much as preventing the 16 year olds from entering the sex trade. You often mention that existing laws exist to deal with this or that however they are obviously not working if thousands of girls are prostituting themselves right now.

quote:

---

First of all my emphasis has not been on violent johns

---

It seemed to me that better than half of the stats you posted were violence or crime related, but OK.

Where are the stats or surveys where prostitutes are asked "Are you currently being forced to have sex for money?"

quote:

---

The facts about the average entry age, their past histories, and the effects of their past are not in dispute and you have provided no information to counter that arguement except to say that once these children are 25 they should be permitted to do what they want.

---

Actually, I don't believe I set 25 as any kind of arbitrary cut-off. If I'm not mistaken, the law regards 16 as the age of consent in Canada, and if it's higher in this circumstance then it's certainly no higher than 18. So yes, once a person turns 18 I believe they have the right to decide what they're going to do with their body.

quote:

---

You often mention that existing laws exist to deal with this or that however they are obviously not working if thousands of girls are prostituting themselves right now.

---

Uh, I would think this would be quite obvious but... we have laws against many crimes, and in pretty much every case (possible exception: regicide) these laws continue to be broken. By your logic, we need new laws for everything because despite laws against theft, people continue to steal. Despite laws against murder, people are still being killed. Despite laws against DUI, people still drive drunk. Etc.

quote:

---

It is time to try something new and bold.

---

Then by all means let's double, or even triple, the penalty for living off the avails of prostitution. Pimps are parasites, and I doubt you'll hear any babbler say otherwise.

But why does your "new and bold" idea require punishing non-violent men?

Could you at least admit that you want to punish men who pay for sex, even if they're not violent or abusive? And by "want", I mean personally, at a gut level. In the revenge sense, not just the "make the world a better place" sense.

Prostitution: an honourable career choice
Prostitution: Continued
Yapping Out Loud for animals and prostitutes

[ 06 May 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

quote:

---

Where are the stats or surveys where prostitutes are asked "Are you currently being forced to have sex for money?"

---

quote:

---

Wouldn't dire economic pressures be considered a kind of coercion?

---

If we didn't have a social safety net then sure.

In India, I guess you don't have the option of welfare.

Here in Canada you do, and as I pointed out, the vast majority of people under economic pressure choose that over having sex for money. I'm not suggesting that welfare is "awesome". But I am saying it's an available option that seems to be preferable to prostitution for tens of thousands of Canadians.

quote:

---

So, if you're homeless, you're pretty fucked.

---

True, but then I don't really see how criminalizing prostitution in the hope of stamping it out is going to un-fuck anyone.

If anything, all it means is if you're homeless and can't get welfare and suddenly even prostitution isn't an option then all that's left is sitting on the corner with a sign saying "Will die slowly for money".

In BC, a person on welfare recieves a maximum of $6120/yr.

Many people on welfare are forced into criminal activity out of sheer need. Some of them end up in the sex trade, others in more prosaic B&E etc. Of course, many don't, and most people get off welfare fairly quickly anyway (despite the mythology that says otherwise).

My idealism conflicts with my pragmatism when discussing the sex trade. On the one hand, I hate the idea that men or women of any age are treated as commercial objects. On the other, I recognize that it is widespread, and not going anywhere.

My pragmatism generally wins out. I'd like to see an end to the sex trade, but given that is unlikely anytime soon, I want it to be as safe as possible for the men and women who are involved in it. For that reason, I support some form of legalization, with careful regulation.

That being said, any legalization and regulation should happen with the goal of helping men and women leave the sex trade, and ensuring that those who do not wish to leave are as safe as possible.

I wonder about co-operatively run groups of prostitutes, regulated, self managed etc. The risks of exploitation (aside from the obvious exploitation) are significant, but I wonder if there would be ways to prevent that?

Prostitution is about ahe right of an adult to control their own body. It's 'my' body so the government, etc. should 'butt out'.

Let's say there is a man and a woman of equal social stature, both are economically self-sufficient, there is not even a hint of any sort of coercion, and, between them, they agree she will provide the man with sexual intercourse and in return he will compensate her with an agreed upon monetary sum?

Let's say there is a man and a woman of equal social stature, both are economically self-sufficient, there is not even a hint of any sort of coercion, and, between them, they agree he will provide the woman with sexual intercourse and in return she will compensate him with an agreed upon monetary sum?

quote:

---

Let's say there is a man and a woman of equal social stature, both are economically self-sufficient, there is not even a hint of any sort of coercion, and, between them, they agree she will provide the man with sexual intercourse and in return he will compensate her with an agreed upon monetary sum?

---

If a stockbroker and a bank teller agree to have sex for money, it's really not like the stockbroker, by dint of being of higher social stature, has some sort of unfair power over the bank teller.

quote:

---

..it's really not like the stockbroker...has some sort of unfair power over the bank teller.

Of course I'm not referring to situations of genuinely unequal social power, eg: tenured professor/poor student, or police officer/anyone else.

---

Money, stature, and standing does create the power differential in society. The power imbalance does not have to be the result of a structure in order for it to be equally effective. Heterosexuals have power over homosexuals, men over women, caucasions over visible minorities, european decendants over native canadians, rich over poor, etc etc.

There is a power imbalance between the abuser/pimp/john combo and the prostitutes; thereby a coersion factor. That coersion factor is sometimes overt and sometimes subtly applied throughout the woman's life from the time she is abused/neglected/assaulted as a child or teen, to when she is preyed upon by pimps, and it continues as society turns a blind eye to her life...preferring to view prostitution from a male perspective of free enterprise and sexual gratification.

It would seem from this thread, in a feminism environment no less, that we are a long way away in our evolution before we can empathize with women rather than see them as objects.

edited fer spilling
[ 07 May 2005: Message edited by: kellis ]

[ 07 May 2005: Message edited by: kellis ]

[ 07 May 2005: Message edited by: kellis ]

quote:

---

Absolutely nothing. But this is, very sadly and unfortunately, not the context in which most prostitution occurs.

---

The reason is because prostitution is illegal.

At least one study conducted in the Netherlands reported that 60% of women working in the legal sex trade there experienced physical assaults and 40% expereienced sexual violence. Link here for pdf.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WingNut:

The reason is because prostitution is illegal.

Make prostitution legal and the circumstances change.

---

Prostitution is legal for both the buyer and the seller.

Solicitaion in a public place for the purposes of prostitution is illegal. Living off the avails of prostitution is illegal. Operating a common bawdy house is illegal.

(All of this is true for AB. I believe that it is true for the ROC but I am not 100% sure.)

quote:

---

Many theories have been offered as a response to this question, but it seems to me that one possible answer is that, as a carryover of the Victorian Age, if the act itself had been made criminal, the gentleman customer of the prostitute would have been also guilty as a party to the offence. We are dealing with a particular form of activity which is at its most basic level a form of slavery.

---

Actually, here's what he said:

"if the act itself had been made criminal, the gentleman customer of a prostitute would have been also guilty as a party to the offence. That situation has now been rectified in that the section reaches out to the customers of prostitutes, although the act itself is still not illegal."

So in fact he's noting that solicitation laws do hit the customer.

Also, the business about "slavery" came from the Ontario Advisory Council on the Status of Women and was merely noted by Lamer. For some mysteriousl reason you edited his acknowledgement of that out so that it would look as though he independently said it.

You edited to put words in his mouth. Not cool.

quote:

---

You edited to put words in his mouth. Not cool.

---

Absolutely not true. Here is his full quote:

"In this case however we are dealing with a particular form of activity that brings with it other associated criminal activity, and which, as the Ontario Advisory Council on the Status of Women states, is at its most basic level a form of slavery."

He is remarking that the Ontario Advisory Council also agrees with his view. I did not put any words in his mouth. Pay close attention to the comma after the word "which".

quote:

---

That situation has now been rectified in that the section reaches out to the customers of prostitutes, although the act itself is still not illegal.

---

quote:

---

Solicitaion in a public place for the purposes of prostitution is illegal. Living off the avails of prostitution is illegal. Operating a common bawdy house is illegal.

---

[ 11 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Organized crime and girl trafficking increases substantially because the legal environment encourages sex trade migration to the area. The area quickly becomes a sex trade tourist destination and organized crime is a major force. This has occured in EVERY juristiction with a legalized sex trade.

---

One of the failures with regard to regulation of prostitution and other sex trade occupations, stripping, for example, is that government, as usual, accepts advise from the industry, or those who would most profit from exploitation, to write the regulations.

Again, the bottome line fact is that the people who are supposedly being defended by laws that target prostitution (the prostitutes themselves) with no exceptions that I have heard all want it to be decriminalized.

Whenever someone posts something reasonable they are booted. See perfect example here:
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000615

[ 14 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fidel:
Let the right wing give working people something they can use for a change.

---

This is not a moralistic or religious issue. I am as liberally minded as they come but feel strongly that decriminalization will not protect women. There are no ideological lines in this debate. It is about true differences of opinion on what struture creates the safest environment for prostitutes.

The point you all keep missing is that there is all kinds of evidence from Australia, Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany and elsewhere that decriminalization does NOT make prostitutes safer. Throughout this entire thread I have repeatedly challenged people to show examples of decriminalization giving the intended result. So far...nothing. Decriminalization leads to increased human trafficking, increased organized crime, and increased violence and oppression.

Nevada Brothels

There are books written about it, even from the inside that show no increased violence, organized crime, etc.

quote:

---

There are books written about it, even from the inside that show no increased violence, organized crime, etc.

---

Do you have any links or sources? Specifically I am looking for any independent studies that show trafficking and violence declined upon decriminalization. There is anecdotal evidence of clean safe brothels on one side of the debate by parties with an agenda and trafficked women held captive on the other side of the debate, also by people with an agenda. There is not much independant detailed study on Nevada prostitution. The fact that the Nevada Department of Justice has implemented a human trafficking task force and the legislature is debating the trafficking issue would indicate that the situation is not as rosy as brothel owners would portray.

quote:

---

... and a waiting list for applications to get in (rigorous route)

---

Where do these women go...the illegal brothels that are not talked about much.

Las Vegas has a huge street prostitution problem. The brothels are not permitted to operate in communities of greater than 400,000 people. This is due to the difficulty in regulating brothels in a large metropolis. They want to keep the brothels on the outskirts of towns in order for them to be more visible. How does this model solve Vancouver's problem. Licensing a hundred brothels in Vancouver would be unmanageable (see Australia). Licensing them in towns outside the city (ie. Nevada's model) wouldn't change the street prostitution issue (see Legas).

Try "The Chicken Ranch: The True Story of the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas "
by Jan Hutson

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
I have never met a prostitue who does not want her job decriminalized.

---

http://changethecode.net/
http://spoc.ca/
http://www.eroticguild.com/
http://www.lacoalitionmontreal.com/
http://www.sextradeworkersofcanada.com/
http://www.chezstella.org/
http://maggiestoronto.org/

http://montreal.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=qc-stella20050517

quote:

---

"They say we're exploited," says one prostitute named Anne, who works in the lucrative internet sex trade. "I feel like I'm the one getting the money and exploiting men, and I don't feel like a victim."
Boucher says there are many misconceptions about sex trade workers.
"All sex workers are drug addicts, and abused in their childhood, or nymphos, or victims or have pimps, and it's not true."

---

I heard someone from Stella in Montreal on a radio program get asked about the element of feminists who are against decriminalization, and she laughed and said something like, "You know most of them have never actually met a real sex worker".

Valerie Scott, who lives in Toronto but at one time worked in a Sydney Australia brothel, says on spoc.ca :

quote:

---

In places that have decriminalization, such as the state of New South Wales, Australia, sex pro's may operate freely, without the threat of criminal charges and/or the state seizing their assets...
It is rare for a sex pro to be assaulted in Sydney, Australia and when it does occur the police and courts take it very seriously, unlike the current situation in Canada."

---

They certainly don't like Sweden's prohibition on paying for sex, which they say has made life very dangerous for sex workers there.
http://www.bayswan.org/swed/rosswed.html
http://www.petraostergren.com/english/studier.magister.asp
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/speech6050.html

It's now five of the eight Australian states and territories that have legal brothels, and New Zealand as of two years ago. Besides safety of sex workers, another important practical issue arose there, and it definitely applies to Canada. Over the last couple of decades, the authorities have lost almost all interest in enforcing the existing laws regarding off-street prostitution, at least when it involves consenting adults. The "Madame Cleo's" mentioned in The Province article earlier in this thread is a brothel in every sense except official legal designation. See
"How cities 'license' off-street hookers".

quote:

---

Originally posted by kellis:
If all these women had other options the sex trade would cease to exist. [/URL]

---

quote:

---

WHat needs to change on Indian Reserves, in Vancouver, Fort McMurray, Toronto and other cities that women don't have to choose prostition to surive in these cities?

---

Well, let's take Toronto. At roughly 3 million in the GTA, half of them women, we have somewhere near 1.5 million women.

Now let's assume the above estimation of 2000 women in sex work in Toronto is low — way low — and multiply it by a factor of 5, to get 10,000 sex trade workers.

Doing the math, we see that approximately 99.3% of women in the GTA somehow manage to survive without being "forced" into prostitution.

It's a six page story, but the following (from page 2) is IMO particularly interesting and topical:

quote:

---

Changes to federal solicitation laws transformed the stroll in Edmonton as well as in other Canadian cities. Ignoring recommendations by a parliamentary committee that called for setting clearer rules to allow prostitutes to do their work, Ottawa instead passed a communication law in 1985.

Having sex for money is legal in Canada. The communication law, though, makes it illegal to discuss the deal in public. The law is now under review.

John Lowman, a criminology professor at Simon Fraser University, has studied prostitution extensively. His research shows violence against prostitutes has vastly increased since the law's passage. The 27 murder charges against British Columbia pig farmer Robert Pickton are the most disturbing example. Dozens of Vancouver prostitutes remain on the RCMP's missing-persons list.

RCMP in Alberta have their own list. Project Kare was created in October 2003 to investigate the homicides and disappearances of people who lead "high-risk lifestyles" in the Prairies, Northwest Territories and Nunavut. The list dates back to the 1930s and includes 41 homicides and 31 missing-persons cases.

There is little order on the street today, police say.

Some experts estimate 80 per cent of the sex trade has moved inside, to escort agencies and massage parlors. While fewer women work on the streets compared with the 1970s, those who do are spread out across more neighbourhoods, making them more vulnerable to predators, Strachan says.

According to the Prostitution Awareness and Action Foundation of Edmonton, 19 Edmonton communities encounter street prostitution. While 118th Avenue around 95th Street is thought of as the main strip, a police sting in April showed prostitutes working the avenue between 34th and 97th Streets, on 107th Avenue between 101st and 127th Streets, on Stony Plain Road from 149th and 163rd Streets and even in one of Edmonton's most desirable and richest neighbourhoods, Glenora. Women were arrested on 124th Street, working between Jasper Avenue and 118th Avenue.

---

[ 24 June 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]