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» babble   » walking the talk   » labour and consumption   » Sobeys Strike in Regina Pt. II

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Author Topic: Sobeys Strike in Regina Pt. II
robbie_dee
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Babbler # 195

posted 22 January 2006 01:27 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Continued from this thread.


Halifax Chronicle Herald 1/22/06: Unions may expand Sobeys Boycott

quote:
A boycott of Sobeys stores in Regina and Saskatoon by the Saskatchewan Federation of Labour could escalate to include other Sobeys stores, says federation president Larry Hubich.

The federation, an umbrella group of unions in the province, recently called for more than 93,000 members to boycott Sobeys stores in the two cities because of a lengthy labour dispute at a unionized Sobeys store in Regina.

On Wednesday, Mr. Hubich said he will have discussions with other labor leaders about extending the boycott to other Sobeys stores, if the corporation doesn’t soon attempt to end the dispute.

"We will continue to escalate this boycott," he said in a telephone interview.

"We’ll take it to the national level and I’ll be having discussions with federation presidents right across this country."



From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
beaver
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posted 22 January 2006 02:58 PM      Profile for beaver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doesn't Sobeys also own IGA?
From: here and there | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
lakeles
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posted 21 March 2006 01:41 PM      Profile for lakeles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
lakeles
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posted 21 March 2006 12:23 PM
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Massey School in Regina had to shut down it's school program with Sobey's on South Albert in Regina, because the Union said they were infinging on their jobs!
Does this mean that these striking individuals, find these students to be their equals, (11 - 12 yrs old)??

Obviously they do! Members of the Union vandalized the school last week. Writing "SCABS" on the outside of the building.

Not only has this school lost their affiliation with Sobey's, as well as the monetary value of this affiliation! (I would estimate in excess of $50,000/yr), they have had to deal with the cleanup. What an impressive Union membership!

This Union should be Shut Down. They are an embarrassment to Saskatchewan Labour.


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From: Turtle Lake | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327
posted 21 March 2006 12:37 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by lakeles:
Members of the Union vandalized the school last week. Writing "SCABS" on the outside of the building.
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You got a source for that claim?


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From: Brandon, Manitoba | Registered: May 2005 | IP: Logged

lakeles
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10788
posted 21 March 2006 12:40 PM
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Well, let me see how smart a person has to be to put that together....
The Union complained that the students were no better than Scabs.... then the same statement gets written on the school...

Give me a break.


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From: Turtle Lake | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged

robbie_dee
moderator
Babbler # 195
posted 21 March 2006 12:44 PM
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I think Aristotle was suggesting that you provide a link to a newspaper story or other third-party account, so we don't just have to accept the words of some anonymous internet poster.
In any case, though, there is an already-active thread on the Sobeys dispute here, so when you find something to back up your claims you can post it there.


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From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

Robbie_Dee
Here are the 2 links to 2 articles in the Regina Leader Post:
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=427916cd-a1a5-4aeb-8949-260c843eccb8

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=8ef126c8-2268-49f9-8c14-adef5aa24988&k=87112

Also, feel free to call the Regina City Police, they can supply info on school vandalism.


From: Beautiful Turtle Lake in the Saskatchewan Boreal Forest | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 21 March 2006 01:49 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
x
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 21 March 2006 01:51 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lakeles:
Also, feel free to call the Regina City Police, they can supply info on school vandalism.

I'm sure you can do better than that. I have a tough time believing that if such vandalism were to take place that it would not make news at all. I'm not even sure that most police forces would provide information about investigations they're doing to anyone who asked.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erstwhile
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posted 21 March 2006 02:06 PM      Profile for Erstwhile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aristotleded24:

I'm sure you can do better than that. I have a tough time believing that if such vandalism were to take place that it would not make news at all.


I blame the left-wing, labour-dominated mass media.


From: Deepest Darkest Saskabush | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
lakeles
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posted 21 March 2006 02:17 PM      Profile for lakeles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Well it didn't make the news! I called the Police. I also called the school. Check it out.

I did my homework before I posted the info.


From: Beautiful Turtle Lake in the Saskatchewan Boreal Forest | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 21 March 2006 02:22 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lakeles:
I did my homework before I posted the info.

Excellent! My kids always finish their homework before being allowed to play on the internet.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 21 March 2006 02:24 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Erstwhile:
I blame the left-wing, labour-dominated mass media.

I personally killed that story. My power grows every day.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 21 March 2006 02:29 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
I personally killed that story. My power grows every day.

... but evidently you use it only for good -- comrade.

("Oh, the People's Flag is deepest red / it shrouded oft our martyred dead..." etc., etc).


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 21 March 2006 02:33 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lakeles:
Members of the Union vandalized the school last week. Writing "SCABS" on the outside of the building.

Then I can only assume you personally witnessed the act and you know with certainty that the individual responsible is a union member? I can then assume that you provided all relevant information to the police and that this individual has been apprehended?

If you can find something esle to back up your word on this vandalism, by all means, don't hesitate to post here.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 21 March 2006 02:56 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lakeles:
Robbie_Dee
Here are the 2 links to 2 articles in the Regina Leader Post:
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=427916cd-a1a5-4aeb-8949-260c843eccb8

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=8ef126c8-2268-49f9-8c14-adef5aa24988 &k=87112

Also, feel free to call the Regina City Police, they can supply info on school vandalism.


Neither article mentions anything about any vandalism, much less any union link.

Rather, the second article you linked reports the following:

quote:
Regina public school kids won't be participating in school-related activities at the south-end Sobeys store until the labour dispute is settled.

Trustee John Conway made a motion to suspend visits by school children to a school partner affected by a strike or lock-out during a labour disruption, but his motion was defeated five to two at a Regina Public School Board meeting Tuesday night.

However, Sobeys on Albert Street South, which has a formal partnership with Massey School, sent a letter to the public school board Tuesday rescinding the partnership until the labour dispute is resolved.

Conway made the motion after striking Sobeys employees and union officials complained to him that Massey school students continued to cross the picket line and were assisting to bag groceries and carry groceries to the cars of customers.

"The public school board has an obligation to be careful not to be seen to be taking sides in disputes such as this -- whether it is a strike or a lockout," Conway said.

If his motion had passed, it may have alleviated future problems for the public school board, he said.


So it looks like the student work program at Sobeys was cancelled by the store, after members of the school board expressed reservations about students being used as strikebreakers. Sounds reasonable to me, I don't think students should be required to cross picket lines as part of their education.

[ 21 March 2006: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
soggy_ravioli
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posted 27 March 2006 09:51 AM      Profile for soggy_ravioli     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This might sound really stupid, but what exactly is the problem here? Like, what are the issues and reasons for the strike? I can't find this information anywhere, and it's hard to find someone who is unbiased to tell you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I was told:

South Albert Sobeys workers are striking because they don't get paid as much as other Sobeys workers. However, since that particular Sobeys is run by an indepentant owner, he (or she), cannot afford to pay them more.

Is this correct?


From: Regina | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 27 March 2006 10:21 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by soggy_ravioli:

South Albert Sobeys workers are striking because they don't get paid as much as other Sobeys workers. However, since that particular Sobeys is run by an indepentant owner, he (or she), cannot afford to pay them more.

Is this correct?


I don't know the story so I can't comment on it. But I'd like to say something about your second-last sentence.

I'm sure you know that in a market economy, all other things being equal, prices are set by supply and demand, with competition being the "great equalizer". Other equalizers (which all come down to competition) are bankruptcies, strikes and lockouts, price wars, etc.

Thus, if there are 50 outlets in town selling gas (for instance), they will all charge pretty close to the same price, whether it's $.90 or $.95 or $1.25, with maybe a short period of hours or a day or two max for adjustment.

If my gas station charges $2.00 per litre for the same product that everyone else charges $0.95 for - again, all else being equal, no special gifts, no extra services, no unusual geographic advantages - you can be sure no one will buy my gas.

Next step. Let's say I figure "OK, I have to charge $0.95, no choice - but I want to buy my gas at $0.30 per litre from the wholesalers!" You can try that - but if everyone else is paying $0.92 for their gas, no one, not even your cousin, will sell you $0.30 gas.

Now, I might be "independent", or recently divorced and paying alimony, or have big gambling debts, all of which might tempt me to charge higher prices. But it would all backfire, because instead of my slim little profit margin when I sell at $0.95, I will in short order be making $0.00 at all - what we call "bupkes" in my part of town.

Now, Sobey's - and again, I'm just going by what you said. Retail outlets like Sobey's have to sell some commodities and they have to buy some commodities. One commodity they must buy is labour power, in the form of counter clerks, stockers, warehouse people, whatever. Now I run a Sobey's outlet, and I'm "independent". I guess that means I don't enjoy the same financial means as others? So, I try to pay my workers $2.00 less per hour than the going rate at other similar outlets.

It won't work for long, for two reasons: 1) I won't be able to hire people. 2) The people already there may quit. 3) The people already there may decide, before quitting, to try to use the levers available in the market economy to "equalize" the supply and demand. One of those levers is strike action.

End of my rant. If this has nothing to do with the Sobey's situation, accept my sincere apologies. But I just wanted to make the point that whatever someone's status is in the economy - dependent, independent, nice, cruel, rich, poor - as a general rule, we are all equal when we enter the market. We must buy and sell, and no one cares who we are. All they care about is whether the product is of any use, and the price.

[ 27 March 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
soggy_ravioli
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posted 27 March 2006 11:32 PM      Profile for soggy_ravioli     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not saying that what I said was true, that's just what I heard. I appreciated your reply, especially becuase it didn't seem like you were talking down to me. The whole unable to pay more thing was something I heard from my Psyhcology teacher. I'm pretty sure he said something about independant owners not getting financial backings from the Sobey's WHOLE, or not as much as non-independant Sobey's stores. I just want someone who knows the FACTS to state them in an unbaised way.
From: Regina | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
lakeles
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posted 01 April 2006 12:10 AM      Profile for lakeles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, this store is independantly owned.
This is something that has never made any sense to me. Why did this union pick an independantlly owned store to strike at, rather than a Sobey's owned store??
Why? I believe this union would like nothing better than to shut down this store, just like they have shut down so many other places... Imperial 400, MacDonalds Consolidated. That's what they are good at. Make a big splash then nothing!

What they are not good at is helping employees. Once an employee on strike moves on to another job, the union is quite happy. It's one less to pay strike pay to.

But that's ok, just keep paying them dues...


From: Beautiful Turtle Lake in the Saskatchewan Boreal Forest | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 01 April 2006 02:40 AM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by robbie_dee:
So it looks like the student work program at Sobeys was cancelled by the store, after members of the school board expressed reservations about students being used as strikebreakers. Sounds reasonable to me, I don't think students should be required to cross picket lines as part of their education.

Not only that, but since it appears the school division cancelled the program quickly, I'd see no reason that the union would feel it necessary to spraypaint words on schools and get any negative impressions because of that.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
lakeles
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posted 03 April 2006 10:16 PM      Profile for lakeles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Aristotle, the store sent the letter to the school as a result of the vandalism. They were scared for these kids.

As a side note, all of these kids & their parents were asked by sobey's repeatedly if they wanted to continue to program because there was a strike going on. They all said yes.


From: Beautiful Turtle Lake in the Saskatchewan Boreal Forest | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 03 April 2006 10:49 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What proof to you have that this vandalism act happened? Have the police arrested anyone? Why hasn't the union itself issued a press release denouncing this alleged act of vandalism?

I'm sorry, but we're not going to go on your word for us to believe that this happened. You'll have to provide actual proof.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Here to defend the union
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posted 05 April 2006 02:50 AM      Profile for Here to defend the union   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here we go again!!

Silly me - though everyone had given up on us walking the picket line out there but no, you just started a new thread w/o me knowing about it.

I'll do my best to answer your questions and respond to your comments. I will tell you though that I am actively walking the picket line.

Lakeles you say -
Massey School in Regina had to shut down it's school program with Sobey's on South Albert in Regina, because the Union said they were infinging on their jobs! Does this mean that these striking individuals, find these students to be their equals, (11 - 12 yrs old)??

**NO** we asked the school board to stop sending students accross a picket line. They are there for volunteer hours NOT to be paid. There are other ways to assist seniors without crossing a picket line.

then you say - Obviously they do! Members of the Union vandalized the school last week. Writing "SCABS" on the outside of the building.

**Show me PROOF that one of the picketers did this. If this is how you think then can we assume that you are being coaxed by Wayne and Joan to post here? How else are you getting such detailed information?

"... they have had to deal with the cleanup. What an impressive Union membership! "

**Do you have ANY idea what dollar amount RWDSU has put in to repair and cleaning of VANDALISM to the bus already during this dispute?? Those windows are not cheap!


to Soggy-Ravioli
"This might sound really stupid, but what exactly is the problem here? Like, what are the issues and reasons for the strike? I can't find this information anywhere, and it's hard to find someone who is unbiased to tell you."

**yes, wages are one of the sticky points of this dispute. Some wages at the south albert location are lower than the other 2 stores in the city. The Zooks have never told us why it is like that. It seems to be a question that no one within Sobeys has an answer to.
There are other issues we would like addressed much the same as you would find in any labor dispute.

Im sorry I can not comment on the financial backing of corperate vs franchise stores because that is something they will not even tell the employees of the south albert store.

Lakeles - "Yes, this store is independantly owned.
This is something that has never made any sense to me. Why did this union pick an independantlly owned store to strike at, rather than a Sobey's owned store??
Why? I believe this union would like nothing better than to shut down this store, just like they have shut down so many other places... Imperial 400, MacDonalds Consolidated. That's what they are good at. Make a big splash then nothing!"

**its not a matter of picking WHICH store goes on strike. The union represents this specific store.
If your theory is correct then why do Sask farmers keep asking our government for money? They should go to Alberta's cabinet because they have extra money to give out ... right?
The union did not shut these places down. It is the owners of Imperial 400 and MacDonalds Consolidated that chose to sell their business and walk away.

Lakeles - "... the store sent the letter to the school as a result of the vandalism. They were scared for these kids."
**WRONG - it was repeated phone calls and letters to the school board by the union that had this program temporarily stopped. The Zooks had NO problem with the free help they were getting

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

now for *my* rant
If you look at the north side of the big sign out front of the store it reads "School is cool over $45,000 given" I have this to say ...

$45,000 to schools
$18 - $20 per hour offered as wages to replacement workers
WHY can they not make a reasonable offer to their current, long term employees?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If any of you have questions or comments please feel free to send them to my E-mail address. Or better yet ... why not stop by one day and talk to one of us walking the picket line.


From: Regina | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jordan is a fairy
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posted 16 June 2006 12:23 AM      Profile for Jordan is a fairy        Edit/Delete Post
First off, I agree with the above posting. I would also like to make it absolutely clear that Wayne and Joan Zook were not, and are now not running some small town family grocery store. They are franchise owners of S. Albert St. Sobey's, which basically means they bought a certain amount of shares from Sobeys, and they not only manage the store, but also make a cut of the annual profits. No one can make a statement, in all honesty, that the Zooks were ever scrapping by financially (well, until the strike) - Sobey's on South Albert St. was almost always either the top seller or the second top seller each and every month in ALL of Saskatchewan (i've personally seem the postings on the bullitin boards)
Without the Sobey's workers, the Zooks would have nothing, and what do they do to thank everyone? When the bargaining began, they only offered them a few extra CENTS an hour, even though they were making huge piles of money to take home. Now, time for a little bit of background info- The Zooks have been the franchise owners of the store since it opened about 9 years ago - the RWDSU has been in the store since 1999. The store used to be Garden Market IGA, and only changed the name to Sobey's in 2005...kind of as a gimmick to get people into a "new" store with hot sales and new flyers. This worked quite well for the Zooks, because sales tripled! Woo wee for the Zooks!!!! However, these "crafty" business people decided that instead of hiring more staff for the increase of customers, they would get their already under staffed workers to work atleast 3 times harder, and KEEP ALL THESE NEW PROFITS FOR THEMSELVES! Again, woo weee for the Zooks! Shitty for every single worker in the store. So, while inflation increased for all of the workers, the Zooks' bank account grew larger and larger (to pay for their large east end home, 4 vehicles, year round cabin at Turtle Lake, designer clothing, travelling around the world, boats/sea-dos/snowmobiles, whatever, etc.). A huge part of the reason the Sobeys workers are on strike is because there was enough money to go around for EVERYONE, but the ZOOKS GOT GREEDY! Why not reward workers for their efforts and increase salaries for workers? It looks better for them, however, when the Zook family can keep the majority of their Sobeys cut for themselves! Oh yeah, and no one better write back and say that it's the Sobey's workers who are greedy for asking for more of the delicious pie - when a skilled labourer, working full-time hours (in a store that makes gigantic profits) is still struggling and under-payed compared to competing stores in Regina, there is a serious problem!!!

PS: To Lakeles out at Turtle Lake...it's SUPER interesting to me that you are from Turtle Lake, and Wayne and Joan Zook have a cabin and best friends that live out there!!! Yeah, I guess we all know where you're getting your insider info from...too bad you're not able to use your thinking cap and ask questions instead of just assuming that your buddy Wayne is being truthful. Let him speak for himself (or does he have to ask Joan if it's ok first?)


From: Regina | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Here to defend the union
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posted 02 July 2006 10:48 PM      Profile for Here to defend the union   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd like to put a request out to all of you who are friends of the Zook Family ... particularly ""lakeles""

The next time you drive your vehicle accross our picket line and enter Sobeys - some of you who seem it is necessary to accelerate as you leave Albert street and for some reason intentionally aim at the pedestrians - do this one thing for us.

Ask Wayne and Joan why they have not responded to the position given to them about 2 weeks ago now. Ask them why they refuse to bargain. Ask why they choose to continue this dispute and make it extremely difficult for you, their loyal customers AND the people that use the other four businesses on that property to enjoy that part of their day.

The employees walking the picket line would love to see an agreement reached quickly, we want to return to work, we want to provide for our families. But when the company refuses to bargain, refuses to present an offer, it is impossible to reach a contract agreement.


From: Regina | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 02 July 2006 11:52 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know all the ins and outs of this strike, but I do live in South Regina, see the strikers on an almost daily basis, and I think it's awful that these people have gone nearly 300 days in this dispute.

One other point: Over the last weeks, there have been several letters in the Regina Leader-Post calling on the city to crack down on the strikers for placing temporary signs on the median strip near Sobeys on South Albert Street: apparently these violate a by-law about placing signs on public property.

I've yet to see a letter, however, calling for a crackdown on a local pizza franchise (which shall remain nameless) that also routinely sets a temporary neon yellow sign on the same public median offering deals on pizza. And which, on other, very frequent occasions, sends one of its staff members to march the public median, waving a brightly-coloured pizza sign in the air at passing cars. On at least one occasion last month, they had actually had two young lads out there, one of whom was waving one of those giant foam hands you see at sports events and shouting something at passing motorists (I couldn't hear what he was saying).

I mention these facts to point out the unfairness of the portrayal of the strikers in some parts of the local press: anyone who drives Albert street on a regular basis has (sadly) long since become accustomed to the sight of the Sobeys strikers, and their sidewalk picket line and stationary signs (even the few on the public median) are no real distraction to drivers, in my view. Yet there's repeated criticism of them in the L-P.

At the same time, a local pizza franchise has been routinely using the public median to advertise its product, often in ways that seem almost calculated to distract drivers, without any criticism, so far as I've seen.

I'm sure this post is full of detail that will seem meaningless to people who don't live in Regina, but the whole 'sign controversy' looks like a double-standard to me.

Good luck to the Sobeys workers still looking for a fair deal.

[ 02 July 2006: Message edited by: sgm ]


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
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posted 06 September 2006 07:33 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
I would agree, there seems to be a double standard. The duplicity with respect to applying the bylaw is not fair at all.

A citizen of the City of Regina will be instructed to get in line with Bylaw 9881, be fined, or have the costs of bringing their property into compliance added to their property tax bill.

A Union on the other hand, can thumb their nose at the rule book and whine that their right to freedom of speech is infringed upon (it isn't).

The law applies equally to EVERYONE, including the pizza joint, the citizens, and the UNION. NO-ONE is EXEMPT. The City of Regina is simply spineless, lacking in leadership, and does not have the testicular fortitude to enforce the law it created. The city is quick to bring out the big club on its citizens, but very slow to act against a business or a union. Yep, very infair indeed!

Every time Fiacco whines he needs more Federal or Provincial money, I'm quick to remind him that a 50 dollar per sign fine, for 350 days, would probably go a long way towards covering the city cash needs.

The Consitituional right the Union claims is infringed upon has a clause in it (as does every clause in the Charter). The clause states 'except where deemed by government'. Well, the City of Regina government has decreed that NO PERSON or PERSONS shall place a sign on a public roadway. You constitutional right is not infringed because you are not being told you cannot display a sign, simply that you must CARRY IT. Is carrying a sign too much like WORK for you? Really, if you have such a problem with the bylaw, why don't you and your Union lawyers be responsible citizens, take your fine, and fight it out in the courts. Better yet, why not take some of the fight you proclaim for social justice, and challange the bylaw, or work within the system at City Hall and try to have the bylaw changed or improved? No, instead you have to throw a temper tantrum and picket City Hall. Once again, working for change is just that...WORK!

The Pizza chain kids have been reported as working in an unsafe workplace. I wouldn't allow my children to play on a boulevard, why should pizza delivery folks have to work (pander) on the boulevard?

When I went through Union training, (Unit chair), it was made very clear that the Union CANNOT engage in illegal activity. Your signs are illegal, and you are engaging in an illegal activity. Perhaps I should file an unfair labour practice charge against the Union for flagrant disregard for the law? You seem to be quick to toss frivolos lawsuits at media representatives engaging in their consituitional rights of freedom of the press. See: http://www.labourwatch.com/faqs/employee/sk/unfair-labour-practices.php

The rest of us Citizens are expected to abide by the bylaws, and we citizens expect no less of our Union Citizens. Until you get your act in line with the law, or you successfully challenge it and have it over-turned, DON'T be counting on our support.

For your information, the city property is the center median, the space between Albert Street and the sidewalk, the sidewalk itself, and the easement extending five feet from the outermost edge of the sidewalk. Clear it, or take the fine!

I hope that on day 366 of this strike, there is a motion made to decertify this union. See: http://www.labourwatch.com/faqs/employee/sk/how-do-i-decertify-a-union.php

The policies and practices of this Union is dispicable and warrants restraining.

Citizen Wilson


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
ProUnion(NOT)
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13165

posted 07 September 2006 08:31 PM      Profile for ProUnion(NOT)        Edit/Delete Post
Funny I was looking for a blog on politics, governments and unions, and I came across this one. Very interesting… and I have only a few comments. If you care to read my opinion I’ve provided you a little background about myself at the end. Enjoy!

So how come there are only 3 employees on strike still? Why has every other employee that was on strike crossed the line or went to another job? Maybe they began to realize how dumb the strike was. Oh yah all those people you see everyday are friends or relatives of the lonely 3 and paid strikers, yes paid strikers. That is complete crap. That is totally unfair to all of the existing employees.

Every time I go to that store I talk to the current employees and they laugh at the 3 left on strike.

__________

Lakeles – "Yes, this store is independantly owned. This is something that has never made any sense to me. Why did this union pick an independantlly owned store to strike at, rather than a Sobey's owned store?? Why? I believe this union would like nothing better than to shut down this store, just like they have shut down so many other places... Imperial 400, MacDonalds Consolidated.”

>>To Lakeles - I don’t believe that the union wants to shut down the store as that would mean they lose money. I don’t think unions are that stupid. Don’t forget they are greedy too! However we constantly see the battle between the union and the company. It’s viewed as a battle, a war. One party gains at the expense of the other. Why don’t they work together, as unions do in Europe.

___________


Here to defend the union – “The union did not shut these places down. It is the owners of Imperial 400 and MacDonalds Consolidated that chose to sell their business and walk away.”

>>I have to agree with you here, the union did not shut these places down. The business owners did. Good for them. Oh crap, did the union forget to explain the risk that you could lose your job to all the employees with families because the company has the CHOICE to not operate anymore? Of course not, that would scare people into opposing the union drive. Getting a union into a company can shatter its profits and bring organization-wide conflict amongst employees (employees that support the union vs. employees that don’t support the union.) and mangers to employees. It causes a lot of headaches and the workers don’t usually benefit, unfortunately.

>>I really like the one where they shut down the one Wal-Mart store as soon as the union was going. That’s a power shift to the business community. It’s sends a message to unions and supporters of a union. We don’t want a union and if one happens to form, we’ll shut our operations down and open up shop down the street. It’s not the fault of the company for the employees losing their jobs. It’s the unions fault and the employees who brought it on themselves. If it was just as profitable or more profitable to continue operating the company with a union, I assure you they would. Why would a company want to lose money? It’s the same reason why companies won’t come to Saskatchewan and set up head offices and office branches here. Because they lose money from taxation.

________

Jordan is a Fairy – “The store used to be Garden Market IGA, and only changed the name to Sobey's in 2005...kind of as a gimmick to get people into a "new" store with hot sales and new flyers. This worked quite well for the Zooks, because sales tripled! However, these "crafty" business people decided that instead of hiring more staff for the increase of customers, they would get their already under staffed workers to work at least 3 times harder, and KEEP ALL THESE NEW PROFITS FOR THEMSELVES!”

>>IGA did not change their name as a gimmick to gain more sales. They changed their name to Sobeys because Sobeys owned IGA. They did this to strengthen the brand of Sobeys adding to its eastern empire. IGA was nothing out east and was in no comparison in size to Sobeys. Sobeys is also a very well known prominent business family. And I highly doubt the stores sales tripled because if they did that means Safeway in Southland and Extra Foods in Golden Mile would lose huge profits and couldn’t afford to continue paying their workers the high wages that they do. They may in fact have to close their doors.

Jordan is a Fairy – “I would also like to make it absolutely clear that Wayne and Joan Zook were not, and are now not running some small town family grocery store. They are franchise owners of S. Albert St. Sobey's, which basically means they bought a certain amount of shares from Sobeys, and they not only manage the store, but also make a cut of the annual profits.
Jordan is a Fairy – “So, while inflation increased for all of the workers, the Zooks' bank account grew larger and larger (to pay for their large east end home, 4 vehicles, year round cabin at Turtle Lake, designer clothing, travelling around the world, boats/sea-dos/snowmobiles, whatever, etc.). A huge part of the reason the Sobeys workers are on strike is because there was enough money to go around for EVERYONE, but the ZOOKS GOT GREEDY!”

>>So what’s wrong if the Zooks own a bunch of material things like you state. And since they are franchise owners and they bought shares they get to reap the profits. Here’s some advice for you, RISK=REWARD. How much money did you put up to work at IGA or Sobeys? I know the Zook’s put up a lot of cash for that store. But there was no guarantee that IGA was going to survive for Zooks. They could have lost a lot of money. Therefore they are the boss. Again, if you don’t like it you have choice.

Jordan is a Fairy – “Why not reward workers for their efforts and increase salaries for workers? It looks better for them, however, when the Zook family can keep the majority of their Sobeys cut for themselves!”

>>I worked in retail and grocery for 9 years. I can sympathize with how frustrating it is when the company keeps all of its profits and the workers usually don’t make much for wage and don’t get big increases. It is frustrating but you/I don’t like it you have choices. You can go work for the competition that apparently pays more according to the union guy. Or Go to school like I did and get a good job. Or better yet get into the trades and make triple what I do.

__________

Here to defend the union – “The next time you drive your vehicle accross our picket line and enter Sobeys - some of you who seem it is necessary to accelerate as you leave Albert street and for some reason intentionally aim at the pedestrians.”

>>From listening to this whole strike thing over an entire year, there are 4 reasons I have observed and heard from people as to why they might be aiming at you intentionally.
1) You have ample time to get out of the way when you see a car coming but instead you walk ever so slow forcing a car driving at normal speed to slow down because of your strike that the driver does not care about or does not agree with. I have experienced this myself. Get out of my bleeping way! You know cars are coming so move in advance.
2) The person driving the car does not agree with your strike thinking it’s dumb.
3) The person driving the car doesn’t like you.
4) You look like a target with those giant signs. Some of us like to drive into signs with our crappy cars to relieve our frustrations because we don’t make as much money as union workers obviously do.

But if unions actually did pay higher wages to performing employees, everyone would be fighting to work for a union. But that is certainly not the case. Why reward someone for working harder than someone else?

____________

To Citizen Wilson:

>>Why are you bashing the City of Regina so much? Are you a civil servant? If so, your strike was pretty stupid too! How do you feel losing however many years of wages from your silly little strike? Was it worth it? Solid union leaders there…people will believe any propaganda.

That being said I have to agree with you:

“No one is exempt from the law.” If what your are saying is true isn’t there some way to hold the city accountable for not abiding by the law? It’s our job to hold government (city) accountable. So I wonder who is good friends with key city officials from the RWSDU.

________

Here to defend the union - “Do you have ANY idea what dollar amount RWDSU has put in to repair and cleaning of VANDALISM to the bus already during this dispute?? Those windows are not cheap!”


>>I bet you wouldn’t have to pay those damages if you didn’t park that bus there 24/7. Well I don’t really know if it’s there 24/7 but every single time I have ever driven by the South Sobeys that stupid looking bus is there. It’s ugly and it brings down the value of the South End of Regina. You’re pissing off all the South Enders (Mase school included) for bringing down their land value.

>>However, that being said I kind of envy the bus. So if you get done this strike in the next 4 years call me because your strike bus is the perfect specimen for Craven Country Jamboree! A few more dents wouldn’t hurt either…“Making it look mean!”

____________

>>To almost every North American Union. U MAKE ME SICK. Instead of always opposing a business, why not try working together to make more money for the business so that profits can be passed on to everyone. Do some research on unions in Europe. I support unions there. The union has a position on the Board of Directors of the company and they want to help make the company more money because it benefits all. This is a win-win relationship. They both work together. But, in Europe companies are also better at profit sharing or giving performance bonuses.

And Unions protect lazy employees. I know a lot of people and many of them work for a union. The first half of them are lazy and know it and know that the union will protect them from being fired or having to work harder. Many of them surprisingly work for government…and sadly Regina employment is 75% government. They love their union and their union loves them. (Union Bad) The 2nd half work for a company or organization because of pay or the type of job it is. The 2nd half hate their unions because the union protects crappy workers and causes them to pick up their slack. (UnionBad)

Oh yah it’s in the best interest of union reps to stay on strike because they get paid more than they normally would. Hence, all of the propaganda to strike and start unions.

I am a former employee of the East IGA store before it turned into Sobeys. While I was an employee I witnessed union drives at both stores, however, the South Albert IGA had much stronger support for the union. I also knew numerous people who worked at the South IGA from school, relatives, and IGA functions.

Everyone I knew from the South Albert IGA was telling me to join and it seemed like a good idea from everything they were saying. A union rep even called me at my home. He obtained my number from someone I knew quite well at South Albert IGA. So I asked a few people, including my parents. Most people told me to not support the union because many of the things I was being told would not turn out to be true once the union forms. Then I asked around the store and found that there was not much support. The South IGA kept saying oh you’ll make more money if you join the union.

So the union failed at the East IGA, however, it succeeded in forming at the South IGA. After awhile, the people I knew were no longer thrilled with their union because of their union dues with someone that I knew well told me they made less than I did because of their dues. Go union!


“Did you know what the Swedish translation for union is? It’s pronounced Fukit.”


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 07 September 2006 10:06 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
This is Citizen Wilson responding. The onlu point of yours I disagree with is: I am not a City of Regina employee. For the rest, I find myself nodding in agreement muchly!

I have been many things in my life, including a business man, and a Unit Chair...so you can say I've walked both side of the street in my life.

I love the risk=reward comment. The Zook family took a risk and they should be entitled to their reward...that is called profits and dividends....and it also leads to another thing, called paying increased taxes on the profits they earn, and they pay sales taxes on the material goods they buy, and create jobs buying new cars, boats, houses, etc. Profits flow in many ways...its only the Unions who get huffy when they don;t get to dictae to whom and where they cash flows.

The Zook family share their reward with their employees...it's called 'WAGES'. You don't like your wage, quit and move on. Delegating your right to negotiate with your employer to a 3rd party like a Union makes no sense to me.

Serving as a Unit Chair was the most thankless job I ever had, and it soured me on the entire pro-labour movement. From personal experience, you have to negotiate a collective agreement to protect the lowest common denominator employee and balance that against what a highly productive employee could be earning once they determine they can find more rewarding and personally satisfying work elsewhere (like Alberta). In short, you have to balance how many bad workers you are willing to fight to keep VS how many good workers you are willing to lose to other employers. As a Unit Chair, you become the leader, or another Boss. I can see that now instead of one boss, employees end up with two....and in many cases...the members end up resenting BOTH.

Sure, the union represents people. It is not all powerful, and it CAN be replaced. Sometimes, the union must sacrifice some employees for the sake of the whole (Star Trek/Vulcan theory...the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....so sorry some of you guys low on the seniority pole have to go). Representing people is sometimes leading people...and it also means sometimes you have to tell people what they don't want to hear (Sorry Joe, smoking dope on the job is not acceptable, and we are not going to file a grievance for your two week suspention).

Unions may like to think they own the work, but the employer owns the workplace and the wages until they are turned over to the employee. If you are un-happy about your wages, you have choices.

1) take them and shut up
2) negotiate (and negotiate means sometimes taking less with a short term collective agreement and hope you do better on the next go round)
3) cancel your union card, quit and move on.
4) become a better educated and experienced employee, grow up, and realize that sometimes you won't always get your way, and work WITH your employer to make a better workplace for ALL, and that includes your employer.

If you workers think you can run the store any better...feel free to make an offer to buy it from the Zooks. But if you are tired of walking the line and are not interested in Grocery Store ownership, I hear there is a Pork Plant coming up on the market just down the road in Moose Jaw. Maybe Uncle Calvert can float you a loan of some of that Casino money.

In capitalism, Man exploits man.....in socialism, its the other way around. Think about it. When you finally correct your cranial-rectal inverted thinking...perhaps you'll understand how badly your Union leaders have been leading. Rational leaders would have realized that employees will have to work until they are 120 to make up the lost wages...or is the strike pay that good on the line? If it is, keep walking...but take your damn signs off public property, keep the neighborhood clean, and stop dragging down our property values!

Citizen Wilson
One Seriously Concerned Citizen


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Erstwhile
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4845

posted 11 September 2006 08:22 PM      Profile for Erstwhile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A quick note to those inclined to post smug, self-congratulatory anti-union piffle that they think is much more profound than it is...

...since you seem to be so very interested in telling others to work hard, howsabout you do some work yourselves and read the fucking thread, as well as its predecessor (note the Pt. II in the title?), before posting? As opposed to, you know, thinking you have something new or interesting to contribute to the discussion when you so very clearly DON'T?

'Cause you're not just full of crap. You're boring, and that makes me testy.

Thanks very much.


From: Deepest Darkest Saskabush | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 11 September 2006 08:40 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
oooo, me thinks my civil rights are being infringed upon!

I do work hard, and I play hard. Matching wits with the likes of you is just play. If I wanted to work at it, I think I could work you right into an apoptic frenzy simply by engaging in earnest and open debate. That is something that seems to really intimidate your type.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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Babbler # 4140

posted 11 September 2006 09:38 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Saskatchewan Fed of Labour - some basic facts about the strike at Sobeys in Regina

quote:
SFL: The workers at South Albert Street Sobeys in Regina walked off the job September 11, 2005. They had been in a legal strike position since August 8, 2005.

Sobeys is refusing to provide competitive rates of pay to its workers and in fact pays its non-unionized stores better than this store.

The franchise owners of South Albert Street Sobeys have been found guilty of numerous unfair labour practices by the Saskatchewan Labour Relations Board. The Company has been promoting or encouraging decertification every year since it was first organized in 1999 and in Saskatoon the UFCW has lost their store through similar interference.

Sobeys is the second largest retail food company in Canada with a major presence in Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes. Its parent company, Empire Co. Ltd. is a large diversified Canadian company.

The Saskatchewan Federation of Labour is in the process of organizing a boycott of all Sobeys stores in Saskatoon and Regina to support the workers on strike and to encourage Sobeys to negotiate a fair settlement with its workers.

Please support the workers on strike by NOT shopping at Sobeys in Saskatoon and Regina until the dispute is over.


Regina grocery store strike enters SECOND YEAR.

quote:
CBC: The owners of the Sobey's store declined CBC's request for an interview.

That pretty well says it all. The owners are too cowardly to answer any questions.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 12 September 2006 02:04 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
Some basic facts about the RWDSU

From the RWDSU website: "It doesn't cost, it pays to belong"

- Yet the SFL agrees that "Sobey's pays its non-unionized stores better than this store." Must be Freakanomics, high dues, or perhaps poor negotiations skills at some point?

From the RWDSU web site: "Union dues paid by R.W.D.S.U. members are returned several times over in higher wages and very worthwhile benefit plans"

- A yes, the paid walking club membership, the union will pay you reduced wages to walk the line a year or more. This must be part of the EAP coverage negotiated by the Union.

RWDSU and their members are guilty of numerous infractions of the City of Regina unsightly property bylaws.

RWDSU is a union in Canada with a presence in retail, department and grocery stores (and sometimes they even work inside the buildings when they are not exercising)

Some customers are in the process of organizing their shopping lists to purchase food with their hard earned dollars for their spouses & families and don't care to support the workers on strike. Instead they would encourage the Union to either negotiate a settlement or take what's offered and move on.

Please support the City of Regina bylaws by requesting the workers on strike CARRY their signs until the dispute is over.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Here to defend the union
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11069

posted 12 September 2006 09:29 AM      Profile for Here to defend the union   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well ... looks like its time for me to sign in again and clear up another round of rumors and lies ....

Citizen Wilson says a few things:

"...if you have such a problem with the bylaw,
why don't you and your Union lawyers be
responsible citizens, take your fine,
and fight it out in the courts. ..."

you talk about City property and say
"Clear it, or take the fine!"

We would love to take this issue to the courts and get something accomplished but thats hard to do when we have NEVER been fined for the signs - kinda hard to prove innocence if your not accused of being guilty.

you say "I hope that on day 366 of this strike,
there is a motion made to decertify this union"

Where do you get this idea from? -- wait .. i know ... ONTARIO LABOUR LAWS. theres no such option here in Saskatchewan. And the normal 'open period' for decert. is not available during a labour dispute.


ProUnion(NOT) .. you say

"So how come there are only 3 employees on strike still?"
Where did you get this from? theres a LOT more than that. We still have the support of the employees that walked off the job back in '05 with the exception of two people that returned to work.


You talk about the bus and say:
"It’s ugly and it brings down the value of the
South End of Regina. You’re pissing off all the South Enders (Mase school included) for bringing down their land value.

What property value does Massey School have to the realestate business -- unless some city group is planning to shut it down and make condos there too. And ... if we quit picketing we'd take the fun away from the immature highschool kids that get much enjoyment of throwing food - eggs - water balloons - rocks at us or driving by yelling their threats.


Cit - W

RWDSU and their members are guilty of numerous infractions of the City of Regina unsightly property bylaws.

Really?? Where did you get that from? last I checked to be found guilty of a crime you have to be charged first with something. The city has never written a ticket for anything. Even when confronted and ASKED for proof that a ticket can be written. There was one day when a city employee was going to phone 911 cause he didnt like the picketer tresspassing on the median

you say:
"... Instead they would encourage the Union to either negotiate a settlement or take what's offered and move on."

Do you understand how hard it is to negitiate when Sobeys REFUSES TO RETURN TO THE BARGAINING TABLE OR MAKE AN OFFER OF ANY KIND?


From: Regina | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 12 September 2006 10:35 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
Wow, we agree on two points.

We agree that people should respect another's property rights. I have personally respected your property rights by always refraining from tossing anything at your bus, it’s not safe, it’s disrespectful, and my parents taught me better. I would request other parents teach their children to respect others property, and chastise any youth (or anyone for that matter) for tossing rocks, water balloons, any other bodily fluid and/or projectile at the folks manning the picket line. By the same token, I would remind the Union that they too should remind their workers to respect other's property rights, exhibit socially acceptable manners & etiquette, and abide by all applicable laws and bylaws.

We also agree that the City should apply the bylaw equally. It is unfortunate that the City chooses not to enforce the bylaw. Please call the bylaw enforcement officer and request they deliver you your ticket immediately and continue complaining that you are not being treated fairly if they do not show up. The phone number to call is 777-7000.

I hope you get your day in court, and perhaps this could be a turning point for the entire situation. Well, we always have hope, don’t we? Hugs?


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 12 September 2006 10:48 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, now that you know that Sobey's has refused to return to bargaining or make an offer of any kind will you be supporting a demand that they return to bargaining and show some respect to the workers? After all, showing respect to people is at least as important as showing respect to property, eh?
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 12 September 2006 11:25 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
So, we are in agreement on a third point: there is no progress when you ask someone to action, and they refuse.

Why not try this? Pick up your illegal signs and carry them.

I can't guarantee that Sobeys will return to the table, but it might demonstrate that you are willing to work within established frameworks. Perhaps Sobeys may consider such as a positive sign that cooler heads have prevailed and serious discussions can begin.

I know, monkeys may fly out one's butt too, but nothing else you have tried has accomplished much. Ball is in your court, want to put it to a vote with the members?


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 September 2006 11:37 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you're getting me confused with direct participants in the strike. I'm a whole province away. It's just that, as is appropriate for a site such as rabble/babble, I'm supportive of the struggles of working people for a decent contract, good wages and working conditions, etc.. Most of the reports that I've read note that many, or most, of the strikers are part-timers, barely making enough to make ends meet. That's enough to get my sympathy.

Here in Winnipeg the problem we have with signs is that the pro-business Mayor has staff that are "accidently" putting their election signs up illegally. Funny though, there is no penalty; the signs are taken down and disposed of and that's it. What we really need, across Canada, is anti-scab laws that would help settle disputes such as the one in Regina much more quickly. Instead, we have a patchwork of laws.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erstwhile
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4845

posted 12 September 2006 11:56 AM      Profile for Erstwhile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Wilson:
blah blah blah.

RTFT, man. It's been done, and better.


From: Deepest Darkest Saskabush | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 13 September 2006 10:55 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm even farther away from the dispute, in a place where there are no Sobey's stores, and judging from what I read here, especially from the anti-union flakes and morons who likely landed here from the Freaky Dominion site, I'm glad.

While I don't have first hand knowledge of the dispute, it sounds like a common sleazy business style of corporate retail chains.

First, franchising has become a major way corporate tyrannies operate, by getting someone else, often a working class person looking to go into business for themselves, to take the capital investment risks, while the corporate heads just suck profits out of the economy. It also makes it harder for workers to organize and get a better say and a bigger chunk of the pie, since they are often stuck having to deal with each franchise as a separate business, even though they are all under the same corporate thumb. You see this all the time with gas stations, 7-11s Tim Hortons and other small outlets that are under the thumb of the big chains.

Second, in terms of big retail and grocery chains, the franchisers are usually much wealthier and well connected, since they need to borrow and raise a lot more capital to open the store, and even with corporate backing, that can be difficult. But in this case a franchise boss claiming s/he can't pay the same wages or benefits as a directly-owned corporate store is mostly crap, since these stores operate under tight regulation from the central bosses. Pricing, inventory, brand selection, and even hours of operation are for the most part determined by the central corporate bosses, not the franchisers. And if a store is not returning the desired rate of profit by the central corporate bosses, the franchise contract is cancelled and the store ends up closed. So saying one store in a similar market can't pay what others stores can is just baloney.

Third, anyone who blames a union for the closure of any business is either a brown-nosing liar or a brain-washed idiot. Unless the store is a union-sponsored development or a cooperative owned by union members, the union has no say in determining whether a business shuts down. Sadly, that's a decision all too often exclusively reserved for the corporate bosses. It's a prime example of how our dictatorial capitalist economy does not jibe with our desires for political and social democracy, fought so hard for by labour unions and others.

When a business closes down permanently due to a labour dispute, it isn't the workers who make that decision. Rather, it's the corporate bosses who decide it is more in their narrow interests to shut the operation down than to negotiate with the employees.

Fourth, I don't know who's breaking laws in this case. Obviously, from the workers' perspective, hot heads can explode when faced with an intransigent boss and a hostile or seemingly hopeless situation.

None the less, any boss that is ready to pervert a community education program to try to use its students as scabs deserves to be expropriated. Period.

I think it's high time the Saskatchewan NDP government showed a bit more backbone on these matters and brought in broad anti-scab and mandatory contract resolution laws, the way many other NDP governments have done, and provisions that protect workers from bosses who shut down companies in order to avoid dealing with their concerns. That would go a long way to resolving these issues.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 14 September 2006 10:30 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
Anti-replacement worker legislation is too extreme. You may as well be requesting legislating mandatory intelligence.
From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 14 September 2006 10:41 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quebec has such legislation and the sky hasn't fallen in. Canada still has a long way to go to actually live up to the claim that it respects the rights of working people to belong to unions and bargain collectively. Far too often that respect is just on paper and isn't really true in practice.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 14 September 2006 10:54 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anti-replacement worker legislation is too extreme.

Sure, I suppose for your kind, anything that curbs the dictatorial power of bosses over the workplace and the economy is "too extreme" (kind of like letting everyone have one vote in elections--it took decades for a lot of your kind to accept this, and many of you apparently still don't).

quote:
You may as well be requesting legislating mandatory intelligence.

That would be unenforceable, since corporate apologists and brown-nosers and anti-union flakes would be in constant violation of it.

Quit wasting people's time.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 14 September 2006 11:34 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
You offer much diatribe, but little in meaningful debate. Where is the sensible respondant from Winnipeg?
From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 14 September 2006 11:47 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Wilson:
You offer much diatribe, but little in meaningful debate. Where is the sensible respondant from Winnipeg?

You offer much snark, but no understanding. Go Away.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 14 September 2006 11:52 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
I refuse to subject myself, my well being, my earning capacity, and my will to others.

You demonstrate that you do not posses the capcity to administer yourself with reason, why should I trust you with mine?

I prefer the present situation as it preserves me from the dictatorial power of extremists like you.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 14 September 2006 11:56 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You offer even more pontificate, and even less understanding. Speed up the going away.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 15 September 2006 01:37 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, this guy's a laugh:

quote:
I refuse to subject myself, my well being, my earning capacity, and my will to others.

Really? So this is why you support the unchallangeable dictatorial rule of corporate bosses and institutions over our workplaces, businesses and economy, and oppose any effort by workers to break this tyranny and get a better say in the economy and their workplaces.

You "refuse to subject" all the things you don't even have, and you refuse to support others who are trying to attain what you claim to want.

quote:
You demonstrate that you do not posses the capcity to administer yourself with reason, why should I trust you with mine?

I read your posts here. Insults, ridicule, arrogance and servile apologies, as well as total lack of respect for working people, are not reason. They are diatribe and vitriol.

quote:
I prefer the present situation as it preserves me from the dictatorial power of extremists like you.

No, it subordinates you to the dictatorial power of undemocratic institutions and arrangements and makes you hateful toward anyone who stands up for their rights and wants something better. That makes you an extremist, not anyone else.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 15 September 2006 10:10 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
I've worked for others, I've worked union shop, I've been a Union official, and I'm now self employed.

You make assumptions of me without being prepared to listen to me. On one hand you call for justice and a voice for all, but demand the silence of anyone who raises questions and committ injustice in doing so.

You are free to your opinion, as I am free to mine. I prefer to cast off the yokes of both employer and union. Some folks can handle independance, some prefer to delegate it to others.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 19 September 2006 11:21 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I prefer to cast off the yokes of both employer and union. Some folks can handle independance, some prefer to delegate it to others.

I finally get a chance to pursue this. Throwing off the yokes of the employer, which you can't vote for and which exists primarily to use (that's what "employ" means) you and your skills and labour to make money from (that's known as exploitation) is one thing.

But how exactly do you throw off the "yoke of the union." which is in fact a cooperative association of workers. Sure, there are all kinds of bad politics, and even instances of corruption, within various unions.

But how does the increased wages and benefits, pensions and safety and human rights and security that comes from a democratic groups of workers fighting to get a better democratic say in their working conditions and in the businesses where they work constitute a "yoke?"

I am also self-employed, and I am a union member, as are hundreds of thousands of owner-operators, self-employed professionals and partnerships, family and individual proprietorships and cooperatives and all sorts of other employee-run businesses. that's no lack of independence here. In fact there is more independence that comes with the security of guaranteed affordable cooperative benefit plans (including electing the trustees of those plans), legal assistance and a variety of other union-sponsored services.

Seriously, I don't think you are as familiar with labour organizations as you claim.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Here to defend the union
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11069

posted 20 September 2006 04:31 PM      Profile for Here to defend the union   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Citizen Wilson tells us:
“Why not try this? Pick up your illegal signs and carry them.”
“I can't guarantee that Sobeys will return to the table, but it might demonstrate that you are willing to work within established frameworks. Perhaps Sobeys may consider such as a positive sign that cooler heads have prevailed and serious discussions can begin.”

The Zook family and Sobeys don’t care about the signs they say that’s a fight the city has to deal with.

Now if we could get the property owner to realize that our dispute is with Sobeys, not the other businesses on the lot and allow us to picket directly infront of the store maybe then the desire for an end to the dispute would come around quickly. As well it would show that we respect the other business owners and their clients and we want them to enjoy full access to their stores / bank.

Steppenwolf Allende you say:
"Fourth, I don't know who's breaking laws in this case. Obviously, from the workers' perspective, hot heads can explode when faced with an intransigent boss and a hostile or seemingly hopeless situation."

I'd like to say that so far there is no proof laws have been broken. The union says it has the right to freedom of expression, this is why those signs are out there and the city seems to agree with them. If the city felt that any bylaws were not followed they would be out there every day writing
12 tickets at $50 each <$600 a day> So far there has been no tickets issued.

On a seperate issue regarding the bus, again, no laws have been broken. It is not parked Illegally, it is not blocking the view of drivers There have been traffic officers that visited the picket line and given guide lines as to where the bus can be parked and as long as its parked where recomended It's fine and the drivers just need to be more patient and look at their own driving skills. If they can not figure out what to do and how to drive safe theres NO reason to come down on the picketers

Y'er welcome


From: Regina | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
lakeles
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10788

posted 20 September 2006 09:29 PM      Profile for lakeles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Well, I see everyone is still at it. Sorry I have been away for a few months. I have been busy working. Oh, sorry Sobey striker's, you don't know what that means, to have a job. Unless you, of course are Clayton Miller, who considers striking his new job....

At any rate, after a year of striking, when 3/4 of your union employees have gone back to work, and "Sister Susan", Regina's famous streetwaker is still pounding the pavement with her bus, As put out there by John Gourmley, paraphrasing Dr. Phil...
"So how's that workin for ya?"

Here's hoping you all have another nice Thanksgiving.


From: Beautiful Turtle Lake in the Saskatchewan Boreal Forest | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 20 September 2006 09:42 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, I see everyone is still at it. Sorry I have been away for a few months. I have been busy working. Oh, sorry Sobey striker's, you don't know what that means, to have a job. Unless you, of course are Clayton Miller, who considers striking his new job....

Wow yet another loony anti-union flake goes off the deep end! You should talk to the bosses at Sobey's about not knowing what it means to have a job. They define it as sitting on their butts sucking profits out of everyone else's work and needs and then blackmailing them with it.

Of course, why should working people, who create all of the wealth in the economy and all of the markets that stimulate the economy and create jobs, dare to stand up for their rights and demand a greater chunk of the pie?

Nope. Can’t have that. After all, "democracy" means the absolute totalitarian rule of corporate bosses and money-grubbing do-nothings over our economy, right flake?

Would it be nice to have a totalitarian police state to keep all us uppity union members, social justice and environmental activists and other free thinkers down and brown-nosers like you happy and oppressed?

Sorry to the moderators for the harsh language, but this kind of insulting anti-worker smear just has no place here.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
lakeles
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10788

posted 20 September 2006 10:00 PM      Profile for lakeles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I own my business. I work hard. I have put out my money, and my reputation, and I reap the benefits.

That's the way it should be.

You work hard, you get ahead. You whine, and snivel, and you get left behind.

And let's face it, the strikers here have been left behind.

I would guess that makes them the flakes, not me.


From: Beautiful Turtle Lake in the Saskatchewan Boreal Forest | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 20 September 2006 10:57 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I own my business. I work hard. I have put out my money, and my reputation, and I reap the benefits.
That's the way it should be.

Only if you're an actual self-employed worker, like myself.

Otherwise, if you're using the skills and resources. investment and labour of employees, then you're mostly just grubbing off them. That set-up is the cause of just about every economic or political problem in modern history, and it should be dumped toute suite!

quote:
You work hard, you get ahead. You whine, and snivel, and you get left behind.

sadly that's not the way it is in the corporate capitalist dominated economy, since the people who work hard end up giving most of the wealth they create to bosses, banks, bureaucrats and plutarchs, who do most of the whining and sniveling about how we have to give them even more.

quote:
And let's face it, the strikers here have been left behind.

No, that depends on how things go. Who's to say they will get left behind. If they get at least some of what they are looking for and can live with it, that's a victory. Period.

quote:
I would guess that makes them the flakes, not me.

No, people who stand up for themselves, speak their minds and take action to defend their rights against the dictatorial power of a corporate institution are not flakes. They are model citizens who should inspire us all.

Rather, the people who oppose them in favour of the corporate institution are the flakes. No ifs ands or buts about it.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 September 2006 04:26 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
lakeles is gone now, so everyone can stop giving him the reaction he wanted.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LakerLes
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13232

posted 21 September 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for LakerLes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, SHAME SHAME ON YOU.

I thought everyone got to have a say. Yet, when I give my opinion, which you didn't like, you kick me out.
My message this morning advised that the adminstrators have removed my ability to post to this board.

You don't allow me my chance to babble???

You have shown your true colors. RABBLE BABBLE IS A SHAM!

Shame shame on you.


From: Turtle Lake | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 21 September 2006 03:27 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm ... Who was it who said, "You whine, and snivel, and you get left behind"?
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
siren
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7470

posted 21 September 2006 04:28 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
Hmm ... Who was it who said, "You whine, and snivel, and you get left behind"?

Oooh. I know! I know!

Tim LaHaye.

Whadooiwin?


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Billie Bob
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13235

posted 21 September 2006 07:09 PM      Profile for Billie Bob        Edit/Delete Post
Here's what I tell every Unionized employee.

If you don't like your job quit. If you think you are worth more money go find a job that will pay you more. If you want more benefits go find a job that will give them to you.

If you want the company to run better, go start one up and compete against the one you are complaining about.

Unions are history, they are on their last legs and it's a great news for everyone.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 21 September 2006 07:18 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why are we getting an influx of trolls tonight?
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Billie Bob
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13235

posted 21 September 2006 07:20 PM      Profile for Billie Bob        Edit/Delete Post
Trolls? What are you referring to? The fact that someone is telling you that the Union mantality is history?

If you make a stupid statement, you should back it up.

quebecer


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Billie Bob
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13235

posted 21 September 2006 07:34 PM      Profile for Billie Bob        Edit/Delete Post
Lakeles guy is right, if you work hard you are rewarded for it. If you complain and whine about the injustice of being an employee you are most certainly left behind.

In a market economy, in a democratic society the guy who can use his mind and make decisions wins.

If you want something, in this country you have a chance to attain it. If you have the ambition.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 21 September 2006 10:08 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oooooh! Well I see the lakesliezzie has brought in his club of lying little corporate brown-nosers in a desperate attempt to defend the indefensible.

quote:
Here's what I tell every Unionized employee.
If you don't like your job quit. If you think you are worth more money go find a job that will pay you more. If you want more benefits go find a job that will give them to you.

And this is exactly the philosophy that has kept totalitarian dictatorships in power and millions of people enslaved and impoverished for over three centuries.

What I say to workers--both union or otherwise--is that any firm you work in makes you a stakeholder, since you, via your work, are the one creating the useful services and products that creates wealth, meets market demand and consumer need and gives the entire business its value--not the corporate power structure that dictatorially controls it.

Therefore, you have every right to demand a democratic say and a fair share--anywhere, any time in any way.

That is the philosophy that has led to the development of democracy, sustainability and prosperity everywhere.

The only thing standing in its way is that most of our economy and the businesses in it (private and public sectors) are still dictatorially controlled by private or private-like parasitic bureaucracies and profit-sucking tyrannies. They need to be eliminated as we democratize our economy.

quote:
If you want the company to run better, go start one up and compete against the one you are complaining about.

A stupid, misleading idea in most cases, since it's increasingly impossible (and always been impossible in most parts of the world for workers to get back hold of the capital wealth, sucked up by bosses, to do this).

A much better idea is for workers to take over the company they work in to democratize it via unionization, followed by worker ownership in a democratic format.

quote:
Unions are history, they are on their last legs and it's a great news for everyone.

Oh don't you wish Nazi-boy! The fact is, according to the ILO, unionization is actually up in most parts of the world, despite increased brutal repression and mass murder by totalitarian regimes and corporate tyrannies.

In fact, there is an up-surge in worker militancy around democratizing corporations--and that is paying off big time by rising living standards and greater freedoms where it's happening--like Argentina, former Yugoslavia, parts of Africa and in various places throughout Europe, and even in some spots in China.

Where it's not happening, like in Canada and the US, is where we declining living standards and rolling back of freedoms like has been happening over the last 20 years.

Lies after Lies won't help you. The historic fact it's almost a mathematical measure that the degree of democracy, community and prosperity, as well as equality and justice and ecological values, in a country is related to the size, strength and innovation of its labour movement.

On the other hand, weaker unions mean concentration camps, mass poverty and discrimination, starvation, political repression, unchecked ecological destruction and no opportunity for most people.

I know that's what you corporate brown-nosers want, but that's not what people anywhere will tolerate for any long period of time.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 21 September 2006 10:20 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More lies to correct:

quote:
Lakeles guy is right, if you work hard you are rewarded for it. If you complain and whine about the injustice of being an employee you are most certainly left behind.

No Lakeles is an idiot. The economic facts and history of the entire world prove this is BS.

As long as our markets and economies remain under the dictatorial control of various profit-sucking tyrannies, it means the harder you work, the more an elitist benefits and the quicker you work yourself out of a job.

How often do we see increased productivity by workers being used against them by corporate bosses who order lay-offs, down-sizing and mergers to suck up more cash for themselves while the workers who make it happen end up losing their jobs? Can you say manufacturing, communications, retail, etc?

The only reason why it hasn't turned into a total devastating crisis is because many of these industries are heavily unionized and such measures quite often have to be negotiated between corporate bosses and the democratic associations of workers--better known as unions.

quote:
In a market economy, in a democratic society the guy who can use his mind and make decisions wins

Wrong. Since our market economy is primarily dominated by corporate capitalist tyrannies, our society is not democratic and most people, no matter how well they use their minds, are shut out of the decision-making process. That's just one of the many, many, many atrocities of the capitalist economics that dominate our economy.

quote:
If you want something, in this country you have a chance to attain it. If you have the ambition.

In a way, this is true anywhere. The problem is that in most places, including this country, there are so many unjust and unnecessary obstacles, such as corporate tyrannies, oppressive conservative regimes and banks that, that block people's efforts.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 21 September 2006 11:10 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
'But how exactly do you throw off the "yoke of the union." which is in fact a cooperative association of workers. Sure, there are all kinds of bad politics, and even instances of corruption, within various unions.

But how does the increased wages and benefits, pensions and safety and human rights and security that comes from a democratic groups of workers fighting to get a better democratic say in their working conditions and in the businesses where they work constitute a "yoke?"'

First off, I have not found the democratic co-operative to be very democratic, nor has it been co-operative. Simply put, the Union replaced one tyranny with another (and don't forget, I sat at the top). Increased wages and benefits while the Union negotiators traded away jobs of entrance level employees to protect senior employees? Heck, pawns of the 'opressors' or pawns of our elected 'opressors'...and you claim I'm not too familiar with the inner workings of the labour movement. A lot of lofty goals, corrupted by the sad facts of reality. When push comes to shove, we are all expendible or used as bargaining chips. Again the good old Star Trek/Vulcan defense..the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

I read much talk of plotting employers, and us VS them. I read lots of whining and nashing of teeth. There is a time for rhetoric, and a time for slamming shoes on the table, and there is time for reconcilliation. Skilled negotiators know when to apply what. All ya'all can strut your puffery and bravado all ya want, it hasn't brought anyone back to the table, and frankly, if I was your Union leader, I wouldn't be putting up with any of it. It makes me ashamed that I even was a part of the movement.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8346

posted 22 September 2006 02:28 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frankly, Citizen, I suspect the labor movement is ALSO ashamed that you were once part of it.
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 September 2006 04:09 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Billie Bob is outta here. Go find a board where your anti-worker spew is welcome. This isn't it, especially in the labour forum.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 22 September 2006 05:01 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, Michelle. Babble seems to have picked up quite an influx of mean-spirited trolls this week.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 22 September 2006 09:44 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
Uh, nope Ken, in fact, I'm welcome to return. Room for 'everybody' in the OBU, remember?
From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 22 September 2006 01:36 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by LakerLes:
Michelle, SHAME SHAME ON YOU.

I thought everyone got to have a say. Yet, when I give my opinion, which you didn't like, you kick me out.
My message this morning advised that the adminstrators have removed my ability to post to this board.

You don't allow me my chance to babble???

You have shown your true colors. RABBLE BABBLE IS A SHAM!

Shame shame on you.


Seeing how unhappy you are an'all, I guess you won't be needing the other two accounts you just registered under either.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 22 September 2006 02:44 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For anyone still reading:

quote:
I have to agree with you here, the union did not shut these places down. The business owners did. Good for them. Oh crap, did the union forget to explain the risk that you could lose your job to all the employees with families because the company has the CHOICE to not operate anymore? Of course not, that would scare people into opposing the union drive. Getting a union into a company can shatter its profits and bring organization-wide conflict amongst employees (employees that support the union vs. employees that don’t support the union.) and mangers to employees. It causes a lot of headaches and the workers don’t usually benefit, unfortunately.

I really like the one where they shut down the one Wal-Mart store as soon as the union was going. That’s a power shift to the business community. It’s sends a message to unions and supporters of a union. We don’t want a union and if one happens to form, we’ll shut our operations down and open up shop down the street. It’s not the fault of the company for the employees losing their jobs. It’s the unions fault and the employees who brought it on themselves. If it was just as profitable or more profitable to continue operating the company with a union, I assure you they would. Why would a company want to lose money? It’s the same reason why companies won’t come to Saskatchewan and set up head offices and office branches here. Because they lose money from taxation.


Companies have been closing down when a union opens for a long time. Workers generally join unions to gain more control over their workplace, as opposed to having to accept the dictates of the company or risk their jobs. Not only that, but it's recognised in several jurisdictions that wokrers are entitled to union representation if they so wish. As for organising? If workers in a given workplace are willing to put the effort into organising a union, then the company &!@##@^% up big time.

quote:
To almost every North American Union. U MAKE ME SICK. Instead of always opposing a business, why not try working together to make more money for the business so that profits can be passed on to everyone. Do some research on unions in Europe. I support unions there. The union has a position on the Board of Directors of the company and they want to help make the company more money because it benefits all. This is a win-win relationship. They both work together. But, in Europe companies are also better at profit sharing or giving performance bonuses.

Different jurisdictions, different legislation.

quote:
Oh yah it’s in the best interest of union reps to stay on strike because they get paid more than they normally would. Hence, all of the propaganda to strike and start unions.

Actually that's a pretty bad time. Not only are the reps facing pressure from the company to knuckle under, they're also facing pressure from their workers who want to settle this thing ASAP and get back to work.

quote:
I own my business. I work hard. I have put out my money, and my reputation, and I reap the benefits.
That's the way it should be.

If I'm working for you, that basically means I'm giving up my time so you can profit. In such a scenario, it is only fair that I have a say in determining how I will be compensated.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
ProUnion(NOT)
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13165

posted 23 September 2006 01:58 PM      Profile for ProUnion(NOT)        Edit/Delete Post
“A stupid, misleading idea in most cases, since it's increasingly impossible (and always been impossible in most parts of the world for workers to get back hold of the capital wealth, sucked up by bosses, to do this).”

Excuse me but do you realize what country you live in. There has never been a better opportunity to rise up against the ranks. Don’t be lazy and go to school and get a better job. Oh but that’s like work isn’t it. And socialism and unions don’t really exist in post secondary education. Some people FAIL and some people succeed. The ones who fail, typically don’t try…and usually end up working a union job. And the there are different levels of success. The ones that work the hardest typically get the best grades and have the most success. Hard work pays off. So does risk. What risks did you take? Oh yah you signed a union card.

I still don’t hear anyone at the other Sobey’s complaining in the East. Oh that’s cause they don’t have a union. They started out worse that the east as I said before but now look who’s laughing. Some of my friends who still work there and are mangers.
“As long as our markets and economies remain under the dictatorial control of various profit-sucking tyrannies, it means the harder you work, the more an elitist benefits and the quicker you work yourself out of a job.”
Quit complaining and do something about it rather than forming a union and bitching. RISK = REWARD. I am no elitist and I have risen above the ranks. I read a really good point someone made about unions somewhere. Unions have to lower things to the lowest common denominator, that being all the useless employees who unions love to protect. So if you really are a good worker than why would you support a union…a union that wants to pay you the same as someone who barely goes through the motions of his job. Probably because you are the same people who never get “good raises” relative to everyone else because you are those same useless workers that wastes time, money, and think your god’s gift to your employer. You bring down all the employee/store morale causing a state of depression for the store. Unfortunately the company/store can’t get rid of anyone that sucks or isn’t performing because the union supports draining profits from the store into the hands of lazy people who are just a little less lazy and have a little more dignity than someone on welfare.

“How often do we see increased productivity by workers being used against them by corporate bosses who order lay-offs, down-sizing and mergers to suck up more cash for themselves while the workers who make it happen end up losing their jobs? Can you say manufacturing, communications, retail, etc?” ------ CAN YOU SAY AIR CANADA? Oh that was just a small layoff. CAN YOU SAY GENERAL MOTORS? Oh that was another small layoff.
Stepenwolf – Can you say Air Canada? The sole reason they can’t compete and continue to use taxpayers dollars is because of the union. “Oh I’m a pilot, I don’t pick up garbage or do any thing else. That’s not in my job description…Union Union!” Unfortunately another great company will fall due to their all powerful union. Classic example of how a union ruins a company. Unions are great when you have a monopoly and can charge whatever prices you want for the most part like Air Canada did. Then you get a company like West Jet who DOESN’T have a union. Employee morale is much higher, customers get better service, faster service, cheaper service. West Jet can do everything better than Air Canada. All because everyone at West Jet chips in to help clean the plain so they don’t need some union guy who’s job is just to clean the plain when everyone who is on the plane can just help out and do it faster than double the amount of union workers. Oh by the way all you people who work for unions, please answer me honestly…how many times have you flown with Air Canada vs West Jet in the last 5 years? You people that speak out in this are just hypocrites if you fly with West Jet since they don’t have a union. There’s food for thought.

To bad lakeles got booted for freedom of speech. Seems to me that was someone’s defense about the sign bylaw...The union is exercising their freedom of speech. God forbid freedom of speech entails more than a one sided view from the inside of a box.

Some of you whine about profits being sucked up by bosses and the capitalist takes all the money. Ever heard of the trades? Oh yah that’s like work isn’t it. But then you wouldn’t whine about not making enough money because there is too much to go around. Hey now there are some better unions, Trade unions. Ever heard of sales? Oh you lack social skills…damn too bad. Many salespeople make more money than the executives in some companies…I think the reason is because hard work pays off.
If you are so confident with your unions and your good workers we should have a Sask challenge. Union vs non-union employees. Organizations that do business in Saskatchewan have their non-union employees compete against organizations that have union employees. Then they go through a series of evaluations to determine who is really the better workers. Now the key to this is random sampling of employees because yes there are high performing employees inside of union shops but they are rare.
Unions hurt our province and country. They prevent businesses from moving/growing in Saskatchewan along with taxes. Do you realize what’s happened in the last 10 years in regards to outsourcing. It is cheaper to outsource to another country to produce your goods because they don’t have unions there.
Hey if you don’t like what your getting paid go work at the Sobey’s East Store. Obviously they would hire you with your expertise of being a grocery store clerk or whatever position you hold. I know Sobey’s East pays higher and it’s because THEY DON”T HAVE A UNION! Quit pointing fingers at everyone else rather than looking in the mirror. So easy to point blame, the very nature of many Saskatchewanians and a large part why we can’t get ahead. Point fingers at all the people who are doing well because they took risks or went to school.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 23 September 2006 02:14 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ProUnion(NOT):
The ones who fail, typically don’t try…and usually end up working a union job. And the there are different levels of success. The ones that work the hardest typically get the best grades and have the most success. Hard work pays off. So does risk. What risks did you take? Oh yah you signed a union card.

This is not even the worst of the anti-worker smearjob going on in the last post. So all labourers are uneducated lazy bums? I don't see your stay at rabble being a long one, PU.

For the record, both my parents, my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law both have two things in common: they are all members of unions and all have (at least one, but in most cases two or more) university degrees.

[ 23 September 2006: Message edited by: Catchfire ]


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 23 September 2006 02:50 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ProUnion(NOT):
Unfortunately the company/store can’t get rid of anyone that sucks or isn’t performing because the union supports draining profits from the store into the hands of lazy people who are just a little less lazy and have a little more dignity than someone on welfare.

I'm not going to deny that dealing with poor employees in unionised environments can cause problems for management. However non-unionised employers are often known to protect their bad employees at the expense of good ones as well.

Since someone brought up the point, doesn't BC still have anti-scab legislation on the books?


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 24 September 2006 12:31 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Folks,

Been away for a couple days, and I come back to find another lying brainwashed brown-noser parachuted in from the Freaky Domination to bestowed more anti-union hate propaganda.

This kook, ProUnion(Not) is so out to lunch with his factless smears, I won’t bother responding to him directly. Rather, I anyone still reading this thread, I will highlight a few of his rants, and give folks a few facts and easy thought on how to shoot this BS down when you are confronted with it.

A few facts are all it takes. Sadly, it’s a long post, since it’s hard to respond with explanations and fact in really short form. But here goes, and folks read as much as they feel.

quote:
Don’t be lazy and go to school and get a better job. Oh but that’s like work isn’t it. And socialism and unions don’t really exist in post secondary education.

This guy is really quite the nut. According to Labour Canada, the labour research wing of Statistics Canada, about 43 per cent of the country’s organized work force is post-secondary-trained—huge numbers of technicians and trade people and even many university graduates in literally every sector unionized in some way.

[URL] http://www.statcan.ca/english/clf/query.html?qt=labour+force[/URL]

But you don’t need to dig through all this info to see this. Just look around: building and construction unions, health care and education professional unions, printing trades and communications union, science and research unions and faculty associations, commerce and office and engineering and architecture and artists and performers and writers and on and on and on, are everywhere.

As for socialism, this guy wouldn’t know what that is if he walked into it—and chances are he already has, if he’s ever set foot in a credit union or consumer or produce co-op, or lives in a one-person-one-vote strata or co-op, or invests in a labour-sponsored venture capital fund, etc., etc, etc. Socialism historically means any economic practice based on long-term sustainability, cooperation and shared interest and, most importantly, the democratic control of business and the economy by workers and their communities. It’s based on free thought and innovation, equal rights and mutual respect, as is the labour movement—all things these corporate brown-nosers are beholden not to practice.

As for lazy, the fact is it is working people who put the time, money, skills, etc. into doing the useful productive work. Lazy are the capitalists and bureaucrats and bosses who justify their bloated salaries and profits, etc. off of what everyone else does. Period.

[URL] The ones who fail, typically don’t try…and usually end up working a union job.[/URL]

It’s these types of totally stupid comments that make these corporate boss-worshipers so laughable. The obvious truth is those of us who invest our time, money and skills in not only working for a living, along with other essential things like raising a family, etc, are the one who create the good and services and markets that make our economy and society possible. Many of us organize into unions, as people have done in one form or another for centuries, to gain a greater democratic say in our work places and society as a whole.

Look at history everywhere. The very fight for equal rights, personal and social freedoms, social security and safety and democracy, as well as cooperative communities, has been won largely by people forming unions of various kinds and standing up to corporate bosses, capitalists, kings and dictators, emperors, etc.

Fail at what? Don’t try a what? These folks get off their butts every day, go to work and create useful things for others to use—only to have the money others pay for these things go into the hands of some sort of profiteering dictatorship in the form of a boss. They then have to challenge and bargain, and even fight, to get a chunk of that wealth. Then they take what money they get paid and invest it directly in the economy as consumers, creating more economic activity and jobs.

Failures? These are the people who create the goods and services we all need and want, and these are people who take their hard earned pay and re-invest it in the economy as consumers, which creates more economic activity and jobs. They do all this while the corporate bosses, capitalists and bureaucrats sit on their parasitic butts and suck as much as they can out of this process for doing nothing (and blackmailing us with their dictatorial power). Who are the failures?

quote:
Hard work pays off. So does risk. What risks did you take? Oh yah you signed a union card.

These statements are some of the most insulting lies these freaks tell. Three points:

Hard work pays off. Sadly, in a corporate boss over worker situation, it pays off for the boss, who often gets rich, at the expense of the worker, who often gets laid off, lives paycheck to paycheck, in denied opportunities and ends up with no retirement benefits.

Risks. This is one of the biggest whines of lazy spoiled upper class parasites and elite corporate dictators trying to justify their worthless existence.

But the truth is the only risks that matter are the ones that are useful to others, not just to those doing the risking. In other words, it’s the risks taken by working people, who risk their money in training and education, tools and appropriate clothing, buying a house close to an expected job, etc; who risk their health and personal safety, even their lives, in doing the useful job, risk their family life, their kids’ futures, their relationship for a particular job—these risks are what create wealth, communities and economies—and these risks are never accounted for by the corporate class. They are freebies for the boss.

Most corporate capitalists in fact risk little. Even the money they claim to risk is either borrowed from a bank or solicited via shares and equities—in other words, it’s other people’s money they play with, and the law gives them all sorts of loopholes to get out of being held accountable.

I signed a union card. The rights and freedoms, even as a self-employed worker, I enjoy from being a union member are based on the risks that members before me took in standing up to the un-deserved dictatorial power of corporate bosses and governments. Yet, besides some significant rights and social guarantees and standards we have won via unions, we still don’t live in a democracy. Most of our economy and businesses are controlled by some dictatorial set=up where a private, or similar type, tyrant imposes his or her agenda on everyone else who works there.

These dictators often fear unionization of their workers because it means they may have to share some of the decision-making power and the wealth that goes with it, with the employees. So they use brutality and oppressive measures to intimidate workers—firings, violence, threats of closure, spying, bribes and smear campaigns.

Kind of like what this ProUnion(Not) guy is doing here, only hundreds of times worse, since the boss controls the business and the jobs and knows all of the workers’ personal information. It’s a true reign of terror.

quote:
I still don’t hear anyone at the other Sobey’s complaining in the East. Oh that’s cause they don’t have a union.

In fact, most Sobey’s stores in Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes (which is where most of them are) are union shops.

http://www.caw.ca/search/searchresults.asp
http://www.ufcw.ca/Default.asp

And, with about a five minute net search, here are just a few of the reports on strikes, lock-outs and harsh negotiations at various Sobey’s outlets, where you don’t anyone complaining, across the east:

[URL] http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2004/D34019.htm[/URL]
[URL] http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3235/is_200309/ai_n7914025[/URL]
[URL] http://www.stmarys.ca/academic/sobey/workplacereview/april2005/[/URL]
[URL] http://www.petitionthem.com/default.asp?sect=detail&pet=3458[/URL]
[URL] http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=1457[/URL]

The fact, without total lies and misinformation, anti-union propagandists can’t survive.

I said:

quote:
“As long as our markets and economies remain under the dictatorial control of various profit-sucking tyrannies, it means the harder you work, the more an elitist benefits and the quicker you work yourself out of a job.”

He replied:

quote:
Quit complaining and do something about it rather than forming a union and bitching.

Again this is the gross denial of fact and history. People forming unions is exactly how people have challenged, and, in many local regions across the globe, even beaten it. The big challenge for the future is to beat this capitalistic economic dictatorship on a global scale.

quote:
RISK = REWARD

And as I said, history is full of accounts of people everywhere taking risks (especially the risk of being jailed, fired, killed, demoted, etc by corporate bosses and governments) by forming unions, and it’s paid off for us all in increased democracy, higher living standards and working conditions, more equal rights, protection from discrimination, etc, etc.

quote:
I am no elitist and I have risen above the ranks.

This is yet another worn out tactic used by corporate apologists and brown-nosers: pretend you’re really not such a creep and that you’re really “one of the guys” (or girls, as the case may be).

The fact is, this idiot has spent most of his posts literally shitting on anyone who works for a living, especially union members, who in fact do all of the productive work that gives the company its value and pays his fat salary and bonuses “rising above the ranks.”

This guy occupies some sort of power position in a corporation of some kind and insults the people who do the work that pays his salary and bonuses for doing little or nothing of productive value.

quote:
CAN YOU SAY AIR CANADA? Oh that was just a small layoff. CAN YOU SAY GENERAL MOTORS? Oh that was another small layoff.

All he’s doing here is strengthening what I said that it is corporate bosses, with their dictatorial control over corporations and everyone else’s money, that make these brutal decisions, not unions.

quote:
Stepenwolf – Can you say Air Canada? The sole reason they can’t compete and continue to use taxpayers dollars is because of the union. “Oh I’m a pilot, I don’t pick up garbage or do any thing else. That’s not in my job description…Union Union!” Unfortunately another great company will fall due to their all powerful union.

This of course is as usual complete corporate hogwash.

Air Canada was a highly successful enterprise, especially when it was a crown corporation. It got sold off and things went down. However, it was still doing OK until it purchased the bankrupt Canadian Airlines International.

That firm, known as the PWA Corporation, was run by classic greedy empire-building dictators, who bought up air line firms throughout the 1980s in order to monopolize the market (they even had plans to buy Air Canada at one point). It got to the point where that firm’s debt was three times the total assets of the firm.

[URL] http://www.metafilter.com/comments.mefi/40355[/URL]

As recession hit in the late 80s, the useless turds that ran that firm saw they weren’t making the returns needed to keep the creditors happy, so they demanded huge concessions from the workers—people who had done nothing to create this situation and had no say in it what-so-ever. The brutal dictatorial nature of corporate capitalism in action again.

When Air Canada bosses took it over, they just tried to pass on all the sacrifices on to the workers, once again in dictatorial parasitic capitalist fashion. And, contrary to the above quote, it’s the workers who saved the company.

[URL] http://www.dwatch.ca/camp/actcub.htm[/URL]

It was the eleven labour groups who formed the Council of Airline Employees who literally bought their jobs with deferred wages and benefits, pay cuts and buying non-paying equity shares in the firm.

[URL] http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/canadian_auto_workers_union/index.html[/URL]

That’s right. It wasn’t the spoiled parasites and dictators at the top of the ladder. It was the horrible low-life unions.

And the truth is union have saved legions of companies over the decades. Sadly, in most closures, the union workers don’t have enough resources to force or buy-out or buy into the company to keep it running. Why? Because they give most of it to the corporate bosses in return for a fraction of what their worth.

http://www.grass-roots.org/usa/worcny.shtml
http://eid.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/95

The fact is, unions don’t have anywhere near enough power. Workers in general don’t have enough power. Far too much power is concentrated into the hands of capitalistic pork choppers and parasites and bureaucrats who “rise above the ranks.”

quote:
West Jet who DOESN’T have a union. Employee morale is much higher, customers get better service, faster service, cheaper service.

Westjet workers may soon be forming a union, as many of them have reportedly signed by with the CAW. Many workers are being burned on their share ownership options—buying into the firm and not being given a vote by the bosses, and not getting the benefits they were promised. The “profit-sharing” isn’t being shared very much.

[URL] http://www.caw.ca/news/factsfromthefringe/issue116.asp[/URL]

So the main issues there aren’t wages or benefits, but basic democracy issues. If they organize together, they can address this as a group. If they don’t, they will just keep suffering.

I can only speak for myself, but I have flown with Air Canada and, despite the horrors imposed on those workers by the bosses, I have always been treated well.

quote:
You people that speak out in this are just hypocrites if you fly with West Jet since they don’t have a union. There’s food for thought.

Lies like these are never food for thought. They are only poison, which is all anti-union flakes ever have to offer, as we see here.

quote:
To bad lakeles got booted for freedom of speech.

He actually got booted for lying and slandering innocent people. It’s sad in a way that he’s gone, though. I enjoyed shooting down his anti-union BS with a few facts, like I did with this guy.

But these types should appreciate being able to come here a spew the usual corporate lies. This discussion in any form would never be allowed in the corporate media or on the conservative Freak Dominion site, where these goofs likely come from.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 September 2006 06:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where are all these anti-worker trolls coming from? Sorry folks, I missed PostingOnBabble(NOT).
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13153

posted 24 September 2006 08:11 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
As one who has walked both sides of the street (union and employer), it amazes me the gulf between the two extremes in this thread.

While as an employer, I worked along side some very fine employees. I did my level best to pay a fair wage, but had to balance that against customer demands and profitabilty required to keep a business solvent (so it could continue to provide jobs for employess and I). I can't think of ever being invited to one 'meeting of world wide conspiracy for business to screw labor'.

While as a Union official, I attended many meetings between employee and employer in which it was by job to be a buffer between the two and find the creative solution in which all could accomplish a goal and work together. This is something I don't see happening on this thread.

Perhaps my view of 'Union' is skewed through rosy colored glasses, but the US vs THEM isn't working. Name calling and leftest rightest extremism isn't the 'creative' process I'm used to, or is this what it is to be UNION today is all about?


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 24 September 2006 09:25 AM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Citizen Wilson:
While as an employer, I worked along side some very fine employees. I did my level best to pay a fair wage, but had to balance that against customer demands and profitabilty required to keep a business solvent (so it could continue to provide jobs for employess and I). I can't think of ever being invited to one 'meeting of world wide conspiracy for business to screw labor'.

I'll take you at your word here, and it's true that there are several bosses of non-unionised workplaces who do their best to treat their employees well. However, what we're talking about is institutional structures, where key decisions that affect the whole company (and the workers) are made at the top, in some cases taking into account the interests of the workers, in some cases not. The workers themselves are taking chances with these employers, and have no control over which type they turn out to be. It's through unions that workers have some sort of control over the key decisions made in their workplaces.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Baptised by TommyDouglas
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13248

posted 24 September 2006 02:31 PM      Profile for Baptised by TommyDouglas        Edit/Delete Post
I hope this is expanded nation wide. I was in Regina last week and saw that ugly blue bus sitting on Albert Street. Had lunch at Earl's restraunt then dropped by Sobey's and spend just under two hundred bucks on grub that I could have bought back in Alberta but didn't just to prove a point.

I expect to keep shopping at Sobey's and will recommend to my friends that they do the same just to combat the union and their foolish ideology.

Any of you clowns remember the Pineland Co-op strike in Nipawin in the 80's, looks like a repeat. I hope that bus rusts right into the pavement before this thing is over.


From: TommyDouglasGrad | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 24 September 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Baptised by TommyDouglas:
I hope this is expanded nation wide. I was in Regina last week and saw that ugly blue bus sitting on Albert Street. Had lunch at Earl's restraunt then dropped by Sobey's and spend just under two hundred bucks on grub that I could have bought back in Alberta but didn't just to prove a point.

I expect to keep shopping at Sobey's and will recommend to my friends that they do the same just to combat the union and their foolish ideology.

Any of you clowns remember the Pineland Co-op strike in Nipawin in the 80's, looks like a repeat. I hope that bus rusts right into the pavement before this thing is over.


Moderator notified, no need to worry.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 September 2006 06:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Merci.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 24 September 2006 06:40 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where are all these anti-worker trolls coming from?

They are likely coming from the Conservatives’ Freaky Domination site.

In the brief time I was there, I did learn that many of the regulars there know about this site and hate it with a passion. There was talk about flaming this site whenever they had a chance.

Obviously, it's more than just talk.

I signed on there partly just to see what these brainwashed nut cases were talking about. I then tried, quite overly respectfully, to challenge their corporate capitalist religion, anti-democratic hatred and old fashioned lies.

But since that site is, not surprisingly, opposed to democracy and free speech, I was kicked off on short order--explicitly told that advocating socialistic ideas was not allowed at all.

What they did allow was the usual bald-faced lies that we see them post here. There are at least five Moslem bashing forums and no shortage of anti-Semitic bigotry, including some room for Holocaust deniers. They even have entire forums unquestioningly worshipping the US government/corporate America, and one dedicated to insulting and slandering people they don't like.

If I had time to waste, I would happily organize a spam crusade that would cascade their site and blow it off the net.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 24 September 2006 06:42 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah yes! Citizen Wilson. How great to hear from you again.

quote:
Perhaps my view of 'Union' is skewed through rosy colored glasses, but the US vs THEM isn't working.

This is the usual hypocrisy clause that corporate apologists use when their more violent anti-union positions get shot down by some facts and history (like has happened here).

When people call to task the oppression, injustice and inefficiency of profiteering top-down corporate structures, or especially take a stand against them in a dispute, the apologists often charge that people are being too confrontational, or that unions supposedly create an “us a against them” situation.

This is of course another age-old lie. The us-against-them situation is created by busting people up into undemocratic hierarchical classes of employers and employees (which means users and the used), rich and poor, supply and demand, suppliers and consumers, etc, where the class on top thrives at the expense of the hard productive work and consumption needs of the other.

In other words, it isn’t the unions, or socialists or democratic free-thinkers or ecologists or social justice activists, etc, who create the us-against-them situation. It’s those very hierarchical institutions and exploitative economics that the apologists like to defend.

Of course, Citizen Wilson is right when he says this doesn’t work. It’s never worked. The problem is he’s opposed to the democratization of our businesses and economy by workers and communities getting a better say via unions and their related business ventures, like co-ops, credit unions, community-based enterprises, etc. So who’s supporting the us-against-them system.

quote:
I can't think of ever being invited to one 'meeting of world wide conspiracy for business to screw labor'.

See how they don’t get it, or don’t want to. It’s not conspiracy. It’s a system—an established way or series of ways of organizing things and doing things that are mainly based on expropriating wealth created by labour, and those who do it, and putting it into the hands of undemocratic elite institutions, like bosses, capitalists, senior bureaucrats and executives, etc.—using the bottom to pay for the top (which, if you have a bottom and top is going to be an inevitable situation).

That is what has traditionally been defined as “capitalism,” or the “capitalist system”—not a conspiracy.

quote:
While as a Union official, I attended many meetings between employee and employer in which it was by job to be a buffer between the two and find the creative solution in which all could accomplish a goal and work together.

How sweet. I was elected and served for two terms on two different bargaining committees, as well as different terms as a trustee on different union funds and programs.

Many of the signatory union firms in my industry (and many others as well) are in fact union members who start their own companies and work along side other workers as proprietor members and master crafts. Many union shops are also worker co-op or employee owned in some way.

We have a cooperative service within our union the provides accounting and payroll services, legal assistance and marketing programs to these types of firms, in addition to the training, benefits and health and retirement plans. We also have a Member Assistance Plan for to deal with life/work social problems, like addiction, depression and stress counseling, etc.

Plus, we are highly active in socialistic economic developments, like CEP programs with local development agencies, worker buy0outs and co-op start-ups and in labour-sponsored venture capital funds, as well as supporting efforts of unions to get hold of their pension funds (out from under the secretive rule of brokers, actuaries and investment houses).

quote:
This is something I don't see happening on this thread.

No, and from the looks of it, you’re not likely to, thanks in part to you and your worker-bashing drivel earlier, that seems to have got the attention of a rash of corporate brown-nosers from the Freaky Domination site.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 25 September 2006 09:41 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
I fail to see how requesting folks to honor the rule of law is 'worker bashing'. I also fail to see how standing up for individual workers rights to choose is also worker bashing. Is it individualism that scares thee?

The top down rule also applies to Unions, does it not? Now before you come at me swinging with the 'participate in the union and you are participating in your own destiny' arguement, tell me, how does becoming part of the collective satisfy me as an individual?

Democracy to me is choice. Choice to choose to represent myself if need be. There seems to be a big sticky point over the power of the individual here.

30 percent of employees signing cards forcing union shop without a vote, to me, is not a majority. 60 percent to decertify a union is hardly democracy. 50 percent plus one would seem more equitable and fair. Of course, I know the rules have to be skewed to make up for all the other past injustices, right? I'm sorry, but I respectfully submit that perhaps its time to move beyond that thought. Unions are big business, and are some are poaching members, or worse, retirement funds, from one another. The little guy, the worker, to some degree has become a pawn between forces (employer, union, and raiding union). Would it not be time to perhaps open Unions to a little competition, even if amongst themselves? Would not competition, even between unions provide better for the individual worker?


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 25 September 2006 11:53 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Alas we continue. First of two posts

quote:
I also fail to see how standing up for individual workers rights to choose is also worker bashing.

Hey folks! Here's another worn out excuse by corporate apologists for union-busting: make false accolades about supposedly defending the "individual worker."

The fact is historically people have always come together in democratic cooperative associations of various kinds, such as unions, to protect and advance their common interests, rights and freedoms and create opportunities as individuals.

As I have pointed out here and in other threads, the fact is the only way any individual working person has even improved him or herself as workers is via getting support from and working with other people toward common or mutually satisfying objectives.

When corporate apologists claim to defend the individual worker, it's not about advancing any individual worker's plight, but rather to bolster their control over each individual worker by restricting common association between workers and even pitting them against one another in order to advance the interests of the corporate power structure and the various elitists who control it.

That's why various bosses at different times have tried to force personal contracts on each employee they have, while brutally resisting any form of collective agreement. This way the bosses can isolate each person into a bargaining situation where the bosses hold all the cards, have information on all of the workers, yet each worker is on their own with no information sharing and no opportunity to come together with others.

That destroys individuality. Unions are about individuals coming together as sovreign people to address their concerns and share in the benefits of their collective efforts, thereby allowing each person to better develop their own individuality.

Capitalism and its various undemocratic corporate organizations are clearly about atomizing people and subjecting their individuality to the dictates and agendas of a privileged elite. That destroys individuality.

quote:
Is it individualism that scares thee?

No, it's profiteering tyrants and their political puppets who try to erase my individualism and replace it with their dictates as to what I should be that scares me. It obviously doesn't scare you. They've washed your brain so clean I bet you don't even know who you are any more.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 25 September 2006 11:54 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Second of two posts;

quote:
The top down rule also applies to Unions, does it not?

No it does not. Structurally, unions are, as said, cooperative associations of workers. There are many kinds of unions and many types of union members. But the fact is, all of them (unless they are fraudulent corporate or state sponsored con jobs) are collectively owned by their individual members, each with a vote and voice.

It's certainly true that in our undemocratic capitalist-dominated economy, the culture of worship the boss or follow the leader is also dominant, and that reflects in our other kinds of organizations, including unions.

One of the biggest enemies of labour unions is member apathy. Something many union activists complain about is that far too many members don't regularly participate in union meetings of affairs unless it is at a critical time, such as contract negotiation time, or a dues increase or a hotly contested election.

Otherwise, they're ready to just let "Joe" run the organizations. As long as things are fairly smooth and "Joe" isn't pissing too many people off, just let him do it.

This is a standard mode of behaviour that is imposed on people by our corporatized capitalistic society: follow the leader, leave it to those in charge, respect authority, if you think you stink.

Of course, leaving it up to the elected leaders to act on their own most of the time breeds opportunity for corruption, misrepresentation and can weaken the integrity of the organization. That's why we get incidents of leaders selling out members, dipping into union funds, etc.--although these are very much the exception to the rule (and to say it isn't is just slander).

But again. These attitudes aren't generated by labour unions. Rather, they are generated by our corporate dominated economy that unduly influences everything else.

quote:
Now before you come at me swinging with the 'participate in the union and you are participating in your own destiny' argument, tell me, how does becoming part of the collective satisfy me as an individual?

Read what I wrote above, and may be try reading some labour history. The truth is, individual needs and wants don't exist in a vacuum, and individual identity doesn't just fall from the sky.

All of these things are in fact shared in common with other people. Contrary to the corporate garbage we are fed, there's no fundamental conflict between the collective and the individual, since history shows each needs the other to exist.

That's why as soon as humans developed abilities to reason, analyze, trade and communicate and greater self-awareness and common plight, they began forming communities and later cooperative associations, such as unions of various kinds--not only to develop common benefits that enhance each person's individuality, but to combat the darker side of human development, which is the hierarchical and the privileged, advancing themselves at others' expense. And that's why we still do this today.

How does all this benefit you? Well, do you see the rights and freedoms and social safety, as inadequate as they still may be, that you currently enjoy? Do you think they were bestowed upon you by kindly and visionary bosses and monarchs, plutocrats and capitalists, dictators and bureaucrats?

Nope. They were fought for and won against these tyrannical institutions by mainly working people throughout the decades coming together and demanding them--and the most successful way they did that is via economic pressure by organizing labour unions of various kinds--something we are still doing today.

That fact is most of the victories won by people via labour organizations, either directly at the table, or indirectly via social reforms by pro-labour governments (or governments sufficiently pressured by labour and pro-labour parties) make up the biggest parts of the rights and standards we have today.

The fact you don't appreciate this and would rather push suck-up politics and shit on individual or groups of individual workers standing up for themselves make you an enemy of individuality, not a defender of it.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 26 September 2006 12:20 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sidescroll Alert!
From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
major fiasco
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posted 26 September 2006 02:53 PM      Profile for major fiasco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Wilson,
What's your opinion on aboriginal issues and treaty rights ?
I heard you have really strong opinions on this subject.

From: here and now | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 September 2006 03:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I fail to see what that has to do with this thread in any way. Please try to stay on topic. Thanks.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
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posted 26 September 2006 04:55 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
Hang onto your hat SteppinWolfe AlenDale.

quote:
One of the biggest enemies of labour unions is member apathy. Something many union activists complain about is that far too many members don't regularly participate in union meetings of affairs unless it is at a critical time, such as contract negotiation time, or a dues increase or a hotly contested election.

Otherwise, they're ready to just let "Joe" run the organizations. As long as things are fairly smooth and "Joe" isn't pissing too many people off, just let him do it.


Here comes the shocker! I am in 100 percent agreement with this statement.

But here is where I diverge from your train of thought.

quote:

This is a standard mode of behaviour that is imposed on people by our corporatized capitalistic society: follow the leader, leave it to those in charge, respect authority, if you think you stink.

When I was leading our local, asking 'why' was smiled upon. When I asked 'why not', the top down came down hard. The message delivered was the same as you just said: You think, you stink.

You hold my arguements to one standard, and allow yours to slip. With all dues respect, I cannot accept your targeting to stray into generalities. How can you go from debating ONE store, then slip to the alleged scum sucking corporate greedy tycoons? It is when one to one slips into generality rhetoric, thoughts begin to wander to why...and perhaps to why not?

This Sobey's store is an individual store, franchised. It is not part of the Sobey's collective. Should it not be negotiated as a stand alone store? (I know, I think, I stink)
Parity is one thing, but parity extends unilaterally. Or does it?


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
major fiasco
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posted 26 September 2006 11:28 PM      Profile for major fiasco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
His attitudes towards first nations will further prove his red neck mentality.
From: here and now | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 27 September 2006 01:34 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wilson, you're a laugh riot.

quote:
When I was leading our local, asking 'why' was smiled upon. When I asked 'why not', the top down came down hard. The message delivered was the same as you just said: You think, you stink.

If this was true (and I doubt it) then you are a textbook example of what I was referring to in my last post.

You absorbed the whole corporate-influenced crap about how you were "the leader" and therefore everyone else had to do what you wanted without question.

But as I said, that is a corporate classist attitude, not a labour union one. Look at history. Who's constantly promoting the idea that the boss is in charge and no one should question that? Who pushes the servile idea of mandatory loyalty to un-elected authority, bosses and commercial owners and managers by employees under their control? Who is constantly wanting to "re-focus employees' personal goals and values to those of the company" under control of un-elected and accountable bosses and executives?

Sure ain't unions promoting this miserable individuality-destroying crap. It's the corporate class and its media. That is exactly where the "you think, you stink" attitude comes in.

In every union I have been a member or elected rep in, people routinely disagreed with the elected leadership, and with each other, on a whole variety of things. There have been several times where the leadership was divided.

Now, none of this is perfect, and it can get very ugly at times. But there's no question it's democracy, and people are certainly thinking.

quote:
How can you go from debating ONE store, then slip to the alleged scum sucking corporate greedy tycoons?

Scroll back up. I didn't start that process. You and yours did.

quote:
This Sobey's store is an individual store, franchised. It is not part of the Sobey's collective. Should it not be negotiated as a stand alone store? (I know, I think, I stink)
Parity is one thing, but parity extends unilaterally. Or does it?

Finally we're back on topic. (Hey, look, Moderator Michelle. We're back on topic).

First, the fact that it is franchised, as I said in my first ever post on this thread, does NOT mean it is independent. In fact, franchised operations are most often under the same tight corporate controls as to what they can sell at what prices, hours of operation, rate of return requirements, etc, as are direct owned operations.

Often the only difference is that the franchiser assumes all the investment risks in return for some guaranteed share dividend.

Second, just what is wrong with parity? The bosses at the Sobey's in question are in the same type of business pursuing the same type of market and part of the same chain with the same pricing and profit policies. Why should the workers there make any less?

It's one thing if a store is in financial trouble, or needs some promotion, etc. Then the union can certainly be asked to discuss how it might be able to help out. This is done all the time, and there are all sorts of strategies and ideas that union workers have come up with to address this.

But it's quite another to coercively force workers to work under inferior conditions for that industry, and especially that chain, just because bosses there think they have the muscle to do it--and that appears to be the situation at that Sobey's now.

Finally, if you disagree with the strategies or ideas of the Sobey's workers, then go ahead and disagree with them. That's called debate.

But if you are even one tenth of the union person you claim to be (and I have my doubts), then show them the respect they deserve as the people who provide the service that gives that business value by working for a living just like you, and not undermine them with anti-union drivel and scabbing on them. That's called solidarity.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 27 September 2006 01:36 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
His attitudes towards first nations will further prove his red neck mentality.

Really? What are his attiudes toward First Nations?

Wait! Never mind. I don't think I'm ready for more aggravation.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
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posted 27 September 2006 09:38 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
I served my members well, and retired with respect and reputation intact. I did not know that Unions held awards for 'most indoctrinated' or 'least free thinking', but come to think of it, I just might have to propose that one to Mind's Eye for Sask funding and production as a made in Saskatchewan Game show. Think of the ratings mate!

Yes, I was persecuted for my questioning authority, on BOTH union and employer side. AS was said previously, there are good unions, and there are bad ones. At least I was prepared to become involved, and participate for change (but obviously not the same change as many on this board demand).

You are correct, I strongly disagree with the way the situation is being handled in the South End. Thus, I encourage debate amongst the members there to question their leaders, and think for themselves. If the Union truly is democratic, it should reflect the will of the majority of its members. The events occuring down there are very dis-tasteful, and in my opinion, warrent open discussion.

As for the other comments and innuendo posted on this board and elsewhere about my (or our) character, I will only say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
major fiasco
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posted 27 September 2006 10:48 AM      Profile for major fiasco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wilson,
Answer the question.

From: here and now | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
major fiasco
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posted 27 September 2006 10:29 PM      Profile for major fiasco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the truth defence might be in play here.
From: here and now | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
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posted 29 September 2006 12:09 AM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
Steppen Wolfe said very articulately in another post:

quote:
The fact is, unions in various forms have outlived them all, and will continue to do so until democratic socialist economics finally become the dominant form of economics everywhere and economic classes and their respective tyrannies and bureaucracies are replaced by democratic managements and organizations.

And if such domination should occur, I strongly suspect that individuals will begin to question the new democratic managements & organizations, and eventually form ways to topple those as well.

Its not so much a pyramid, as a continuous cycle. Capitalism is, by its very nature and definition, creative destruction. Animal Farm. Lord of the Flies. Atlas Shrugged. When will the Union begin to START businesses? I wonder, would the Union care to BUY a Sobey's franchise and run it? Could the system run itself? I suspect the Union may learn much about what a Franchise really is, and it is FAR from what you described SW-A.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 29 September 2006 09:44 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, it goes on….

quote:
When will the Union begin to START businesses?

Lots of unions do just that. Contrary to the endless crap spewed out by the corporate media, socialism in fact is and always has been very entrepreneurial.

http://www.grass-roots.org/usa/worcny.shtml
http://eid.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/95

quote:
I wonder, would the Union care to BUY a Sobey's franchise and run it?

Dunno. Tell you what. Since you live much closer to them than I do, why don’t you ask them? Just do it respectfully and politely like an at least partially supportive person and suggest it to them. But whether they buy a franchise or even the whole damn company or not does not change the fact that they work there and that gives the business its value. They deserve respect just for that alone. If you can’t even do that, then don’t expect them to take you too seriously.

quote:
I suspect the Union may learn much about what a Franchise really is, and it is FAR from what you described SW-A.

How do you know that at least someone in the union doesn’t already know this, especially since lots of franchise operations are union shops? And, BTW, I co-ran a franchise for a year with my cousins, and yep, we were all union members. And I helped with an organizing drive among franchised restaurants that caused a ruckus at the labour board when they learned that two franchise owners, who also worked in the business, had joined the union, so they could get support in negotiating with the corporate head office.

We thought it was a great idea. Too bad the board didn’t. So I think I have a bit of an idea how franchises operate—obviously nowhere near as much as your heavenly-bestowed omni-wisdom on such things—but at least enough to have a clue about what I’m talking about.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
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posted 29 September 2006 12:49 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
SW-A, this is not meant as a butt kiss, but an earnest compliment. Even if we have different morals, behave differently, and stand on near polar opposites on issues, there is some point where we can disagree and retain respect for one another. Actively entering into an enterprise and retaining your convictions is a noble effort, and I wanted to compliment you for doing so. For what it's worth, I respect your efforts. I would even go so far as to wish you well in your ventures.

I bet you wouldn't expect that from the ilks of me.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Citizen Wilson
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posted 30 September 2006 12:13 PM      Profile for Citizen Wilson        Edit/Delete Post
Wait a second, you co-ran a franchise. You had no ownership stake in the franchise? You did not read the entire franchise agreement, nor did you sign a legally binding agreement as a franchisee?

Please clarify.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
j_ryan
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 02 October 2006 08:03 AM      Profile for j_ryan        Edit/Delete Post
Although its not specifically about the Sobeys boycott, ThinkThenAct.com has some great arguments for and against unions and talks about what they're doing and if they're necessary in Saskatchewan and Canada.

check it out.


From: Regina | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 02 October 2006 08:13 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do we know if any of the grocery chains have decent labour practices?
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 02 October 2006 12:15 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well whaddya know, 100 posts!

Boom Boom's query will have to remain unanswered and unresolved, undoubtedly haunting him until his final days, 'cause I'm closing this thread!

BWAHAHAHA

[ 02 October 2006: Message edited by: oldgoat ]


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged

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