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Author Topic: I made that money;it's mine all mine
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 29 May 2004 05:47 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Myth: "I made that money; it's mine all mine."

No one truly makes 100 percent of his money by himself. Individuals depend on a wide array of government services to support the very free
market in which they earn their money. Without these supports, there would be no free market in the first place.


However, these individuals could not have made a dime on the
free market without any of the following government supports of the free
market:

  • Printing the very dollar bills with which people trade
  • Public roads.
  • Rural electrification.
  • Government subsidized telephone wiring.
  • Satellite communications.
  • Police protection.
  • Military protection.
  • A criminal justice system.
  • Fire protection.
  • Paramedic protection.
  • An educated workforce.
  • An immunized workforce.
  • Protection against plagues by Health Canada
  • Public-funded business loans, foreclosure loans and subsidies.
  • Protection from business fraud and unfair business practices.
  • The protection of intellectual property through patents and copyrights
  • Student loans
  • Government funded research and development.
  • Economic data collected and analyzed by Canada's federal gov't.
  • Prevention of depressions by Keynesian policies at the Bank of Canada (successful for six decades now).
  • Dollars protected from inflation by the BofC
  • Emergency programs to bailout corporations in financial trouble
  • Public libraries.
  • Agricultural Services
  • National Weather Service
  • Public job training.
  • EI to subsidize their laid off workers and in keeping skilled workers from relocating from areas of manufacturing
  • National Socialized medicine(thanks to TC Douglas and CCF/NDP) to subsidize their workers in remaining competitive with those countries providing the same

quote:
Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took all of it from them" Edward Albert Filene (1869-1937)

Filene (of Boston's Filene's Department Stores) founded the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to encourage businesses to contribute to the welfare of their
communities. He eventually quit the organization, disappointed that it had become a bastion of right-wing conservatism and an anti-tax lobby.


The above quotes were lifted, carte blanche, from the following web site ...www.huppi.com


"If the wealthy don't like paying taxes, then they always have the option of moving to low tax, low wage, non-union utopia's the likes of Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nairobi or perhaps any of the American "right to work" States just south of the border." - from babble.ca poster Fidel, May 29, 2004

cheers!

[ 29 May 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 29 May 2004 05:57 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Psst. Proper attribution, even if the guy's dead, is still important.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 29 May 2004 07:54 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That list of HUPPI's taxpayer-funded public services propping up the wealthy has also been edited to reflect our Canadian content. I'll get that out of the way, too, before we get bogged down with very many technicalities.

PS: I'm not related to Ralph Klein despite any similarities with respect to referencing web sources.

[ 29 May 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 29 May 2004 08:02 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that we all depend on public services. But if you do work (and report it to the government as you're legally required to do), they will collect a tidy sum from each paycheck to pay for said services . . . along with a bit to pay for their own expenses, a little admin fee if you will. The exact amounts of who's getting their dollars worth I'll leave up to you.
From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 29 May 2004 08:26 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Baldfresh says, and for the sake of the forum KGB, I quote:
quote:
I agree that we all depend on public services. But if you do work (and report it to the government as you're legally required to do), they will collect a tidy sum from each paycheck to pay for said services . . . along with a bit to pay for their own expenses, a little admin fee if you will. The exact amounts of who's getting their dollars worth I'll leave up to you.

But what about the Stats Canada report released under Brian Mulroney's regime which stated that unpaid and deferred corporate income taxes represented about 40% of Canada's annual deficit payments while social program spending accounted for just 4% ?. People like Michael Walker of the right wing, make-believe Vancouver think tank, the Fraser Institute are saying that Paul Martin has cut and slashed social program spending to a greater degree in Canada than the very conservative Klein regime has done to Alberta's social safety net. And on the corporate taxation end of it, the NDP says that corporate taxes represented about 80% of annual federal tax revenues and personal taxation just 20% of the total in the 1970's. Today, those percentages are reversed.

And these two old parties are telling us to vote
for them in order to save social programs in Canada ?. I have a very difficult time believing anything that Stephie Harper or Paul Martian ... I mean Paul Martin says.

[ 29 May 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 29 May 2004 08:42 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree entirely. My initial post was because I got the impression from your first one that . . . a dollar I earn isn't really mine, due to a benevolent government in place that provides me gratis with the infrastructure so I can earn my dollar. If I earn a dollar the government takes a part of it to pay for the services, regardless if I make use of all, some, or none of said services.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis Martin et al. When I said "The exact amounts of who's getting their dollars worth I'll leave up to you." was sarcastic, meaning as a lower class worker drone myself the money the govenment takes from me right now ISN'T properly being used to fund public resources that I might need.
[ 29 May 2004: Message edited by: Baldfresh ]

[ 29 May 2004: Message edited by: Baldfresh ]


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 29 May 2004 08:48 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Darn! And I thought we'd hooked an anti-tax elitist. It's much easier to bait and hook and American on these issues. LOL! Canadian's are just too clever.

cheers!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 29 May 2004 08:58 PM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Canadian's are just too clever.

Not ALL Canadian's, unfortunately. Look at Alberta! For one thing, Klein's still in power, which is enough of a slap in the face, but secondly, you'd be surprised how few Albertans even know about Kleins essay fiasco.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 29 May 2004 09:10 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soar:

Not ALL Canadian's, unfortunately.


I'd even say not nearly enough. (But then, I'm so "left" that to me the NDP is just a leftist shade of the right )

[ 29 May 2004: Message edited by: Baldfresh ]


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jason Kauppinen
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5932

posted 03 June 2004 11:16 PM      Profile for Jason Kauppinen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Printing the very dollar bills with which people trade

Bank notes backed by gold would would much better.

quote:
Public roads.

Not nesessarily nessesary.

quote:
Rural electrification.

Can just as easily be done by the private sector.

quote:
Government subsidized telephone wiring.

Can also just as easily be done by the private sector.

quote:
Satellite communications.

This is already done by the private sector.

quote:
Police protection.

Agreed.

quote:
Military protection.


quote:
A criminal justice system.

Agreed.

quote:
Fire protection.

Could be done by the private sector or volunteer services.

[QUOTEParamedic protection.[/QUOTE]

Already done by the private sector.

quote:
An educated workforce.

Already done to a degree and done better by the private sector.

quote:
An immunized workforce.

Also could be done by the private sector or by volunteer organizations.

quote:
Protection against plagues by Health Canada

Could easily be done by the private sector and by volunteer organizations.

quote:
Public-funded business loans, foreclosure loans and subsidies.

A recipie for corruption and inefficiency.

quote:
Protection from business fraud and unfair business practices.

Agreed, but this has already been covered by "criminal justice system".

quote:
The protection of intellectual property through patents and copyrights

Agreed, but this has already been covered by "criminal justice system".

quote:
Student loans

The private sector could easily handle the whole of higher education, supplemented by volunteer organizations.

quote:
Government funded research and development.

Unnessesary.

quote:
Economic data collected and analyzed by Canada's federal gov't.

Unnessesary and of questionable usefulness.

quote:
Prevention of depressions by Keynesian policies at the Bank of Canada (successful for six decades now).

Further depressions have been prevended by stricter controls against inflation by the Federal Reserve. Unfortunately since that system is still essentially socialist, it cannot be refined enough to prevent the recessions that it causes.

quote:
Dollars protected from inflation by the BofC

The BofC causes and subsidizes inflation.

quote:
Emergency programs to bailout corporations in financial trouble

Corparations in financial trouble should never be bailed out by the government.

quote:
Public libraries.

Could easily be handled by the private sector and by volunteer organizations.

quote:
Agricultural Services

Such as?

quote:
National Weather Service

Could also be handled by the private sector.

quote:
Public job training.

The private sector does a better job here.

quote:
EI to subsidize their laid off workers and in keeping skilled workers from relocating

Actually you're right here if the quote is taken out of context as I have done above. EI subsidizes workers to the point where they stay in economically depressed areas instead of getting off of EI and moving to find a job in a stronger economic area of the country.

quote:
National Socialized medicine(thanks to TC Douglas and CCF/NDP)

Does a good job only in making people suffer from various ailments by waiting in line for treatment.


From: Kingston, Ontario | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 03 June 2004 11:42 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In every case where you claim "it" could be done by the private sector or volunteers, you neglect to admit the fact that "it" would cost more, be inefficient to charge against the users by a user fee, or be inefficiently and unevenly provided by the charity sector.

It is precisely the factors above that got government into providing mandatory universal education and health care in the first place.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jason Kauppinen
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5932

posted 03 June 2004 11:48 PM      Profile for Jason Kauppinen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cost more? If something isn't provided by the private sector it is impossible to put anything other than an arbitrary $ value upon it. Making direct cost comparisons between public and private services becomes impossible.

How do you mean that private charities would be un-even?


From: Kingston, Ontario | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
the_big_pierogi
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5957

posted 04 June 2004 12:04 AM      Profile for the_big_pierogi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Kauppinen:
How do you mean that private charities would be un-even?

You neglect to point out that the voluntary sector is pretty much stretched out as thin as it can go. Rates of volunteering are decreasing rapidly in virtually every province (I think PEI and Alberta are the only provinces where the rates either stayed stable or increased) and the voluntary sector becoming increasingly dependent on a shrinking group of core supporters (over 1/3 of volunteer hours are given by 5% of volunteers).

So the voluntary sector is fragile, stretched to the limit, and shrinking. I doubt you'll find many volunteers to work in firefighting, universities, immunization, and others.

National Survey of Giving, Volunteering, and Participating

(Edited for ugly grammar.)

[ 04 June 2004: Message edited by: the_big_pierogi ]


From: Ottawa, Ontario | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 04 June 2004 12:13 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
JasonKauppinen says
quote:
Bank notes backed by gold would would much better.

That was tried for about 30 years leading up to the start of the last century and Great Depression era. Runs on the reserves of just three banks caused the failure of thousands of other banks in 1929. It's but one of the reasons that Smithian-Laissez faire capitalism was abandoned world wide in the 1930's as people voted against moribund economies where a dollar a day was considered a good wage and farmers couldn't afford to upgrade their farm equipment. Keynesian economics transformed global financing to that of fractional reserve banking with paper money backed by federal guarantees.

JasonKauppenin says:

quote:

[Rural electrification.]
Can just as easily be done by the private sector.


Deregulated power distribution has proved no better and yet more costly than public power ...around the world. Privatized water is proving to suck just as much around the globe, too.
HowStuffWorks: How California's Power Crisis Works

Conservatives have fantasized about a fully deregulated economy since the grand failure of laissez faire capitalism in 1929. Conservative economists have dreamed about implementing their right wing ideology and mislabelling it as a free market system. Chicago School of Economics graduates and Milton Friedman got that chance on 9-11-73 for the next 16 years in a row. It lasted nine.

quote:

Tinker Bell Pinochet and the Fairy Tale Miracle of Chile
The London Observer
Sunday, November 22, 1998

SAO PAULO - Cinderella's Fairy Godmother, Tinker Bell and Senator Augusto Pinochet have much in common.

All three performed magical good deeds. In the case of Pinochet, he is universally credited with the Miracle of Chile, the wildly successful
experiment in free markets, privatisation, de-regulation and union-free economic expansion whose laissez-faire seeds have spread from Santiago to Surrey, from Valparaiso to Virginia.

But Cinderella's pumpkin did not really turn into a coach. The Miracle of Chile, too, is just another fairy tale. The claim that General Pinochet begot an economic powerhouse is one of those utterances, like "Labour's ethical foreign policy," whose truth rests entirely on its repetition.

Chile can claim some economic success. But that is the work of Salvador Allende - who saved his nation, miraculously, a decade after his death.

In 1973, the year the General seized the government, Chile's unemployment rate was 4.3%. In 1983, after ten years of free-market modernisation, unemployment reached 22%. Real wages declined by 40% under military rule.

In 1970, 20% of Chile's population lived in poverty. By 1990, the year "President" Pinochet left office, the number of destitute had doubled to 40%. Quite a miracle.

Pinochet did not destroy Chile's economy all alone. It took nine years of hard work by the most brilliant minds in world academia, a gaggle of Milton Friedman's trainees, the Chicago Boys. Under the spell of their theories, the General abolished the minimum wage, outlawed trade union bargaining rights, privatised the pension system, abolished all taxes on wealth and on business profits, slashed public employment, privatised 212 state industries and 66 banks and ran a fiscal surplus.

Freed of the dead hand of bureaucracy, taxes and union rules, the country took a giant leap forward ... into bankruptcy and depression. After nine years of economics Chicago style, Chile's industry keeled over and died. In 1982 and 1983, GDP dropped 19%. The free-market experiment was kaput, the test tubes shattered. Blood and glass littered the laboratory floor. Yet, with remarkable chutzpa, the mad scientists of Chicago declared success. In the US, President Ronald Reagan's State Department issued a report concluding, "Chile is a casebook study in sound economic management." Milton Friedman himself coined the phrase, "The Miracle of Chile." Friedman's sidekick, economist Art Laffer, preened that Pinochet's Chile was, "a showcase of what supply-side economics can do."

It certainly was. More exactly, Chile was a showcase of de-regulation gone berserk.

The Chicago Boys persuaded the junta that removing restrictions on the nation's banks would free them to attract foreign capital to fund industrial expansion.

Pinochet sold off the state banks - at a 40% discount from book value - and they quickly fell into the hands of two conglomerate empires controlled by speculators Javier Vial and Manuel Cruzat. From their captive banks, Vial and Cruzat siphoned cash to buy up manufacturers - then leveraged these assets with loans from foreign investors panting to get their piece of the state giveaways.

The bank's reserves filled with hollow securities from connected enterprises. Pinochet let the good times roll for the speculators. He was persuaded, as Tony Blair said this month in another context, "Governments should not hinder the logic of the market."

By 1982, the pyramid finance game was up. The Vial and Cruzat "Grupos" defaulted. Industry shut down, private pensions were worthless, the currency swooned. Riots and strikes by a population too hungry and desperate to fear bullets forced Pinochet to reverse course. He booted his beloved Chicago experimentalists. Reluctantly, the General restored the minimum wage and unions' collective bargaining rights. Pinochet, who had previously decimated government ranks, authorized a program to create 500,000 jobs. The equivalent in Britain would be a government program for 4 million workers.

In other words, Chile was pulled from depression by dull old Keynesian remedies, all Franklin Roosevelt, zero Margaret Thatcher. (The junta even instituted what remains today as South America's only law restricting the flow of foreigncapital.)

New Deal tactics rescued Chile from the Panic of 1983, but the nation's long-term recovery and growth since then is the result of - cover the
children's ears - a large dose of socialism.

To save the nation's pension system, Pinochet nationalized banks and industry on a scale unimagined by Communist Allende. The General expropriated at will, offering little or no compensation. While most of these businesses were eventually re-privatised, the state retained ownership of one industry: copper.

For nearly a century, copper has meant Chile and Chile copper. University of Montana metals expert Dr. Janet Finn notes, "Its absurd to describe a nation as a miracle of free enterprise when the engine of the economy remains in government hands." (And not just any government hands. A Pinochet law, still in force, gives the military 10% of state copper revenues.)

Copper has provided 30% to 70% of the nation's export earnings. This is the hard currency which has built today's Chile, the proceeds from the mines seized from Anaconda and Kennecott in 1973 - Allende's posthumous gift to his nation.

Agribusiness is the second locomotive of Chile's economic growth. This also is a legacy of the Allende years. According to Professor Arturo Vasquez of Georgetown University, Washington DC, Allende's land reform, the break-up of feudal estates (which Pinochet could not fully reverse), created a new class of productive tiller-owners, along with corporate and cooperative operators, who now bring in a stream of export earnings to rival copper. "In order to have an economic miracle," says Dr. Vasquez, "maybe you need a socialist government first to commit agrarian reform."

So there we have it. Keynes and Marx, not Friedman, saved Chile.

But the myth of the free-market Miracle persists because it serves a quasi-religious function. Within the faith of the Reaganauts and Thatcherites, Chile provides the necessary genesis fable, the ersatz Eden from which laissez-faire dogma sprang successful and shining.

Half a globe away from Chile, an alternative economic experiment was succeeding quietly and bloodlessly. The southern Indian state of Kerala is the laboratory for the humane development theories of Amartya Sen, this year's winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. Committed to income re-distribution and universal social services, Kerala built an economy on intensive public education. As the world's most literate state, it earns its hard currency from the export of technical assistance to Gulf nations. If you've heard little or nothing of Sen and Kerala, maybe it is because they pose an annoying challenge to the neoliberal consensus.

This week, the international finance Gang of Four - the World Bank, the IMF, the Inter-American Development Bank and the International Bank for Settlements - offered a $41.5 billion line of credit to Brazil. But before the agencies hand the drowning nation a life preserver, they demand Brazil commit to swallow the economic medicine that nearly killed Chile. You know the list: fire-sale privatisations, flexible labor markets (i.e. union demolition) and deficit reduction through savage cuts in government services and social security.

Here in Sao Paulo, the public is assured these cruel measures will ultimately benefit the average Brazilian. What looks like financial colonialism is sold as the cure-all tested in Chile with miraculous results.

But that miracle was in fact a hoax, a fraud, a fairy tale in which everyone did not live happily ever after.

Gregory Palast writes the award-winning column, "Iside Corporate America" fortnightly in Britain's Sunday newsaper, The Observer, part of the Guardian Media Group, where this first appeared. For comments or request to reprint, contact: www.gregorypalast.com
The London Observer


In fact, the most prosperous economies of the last century were those that made strong investments in public infrastructure with amenities for the working poor and middle class. About half of the wealth generated in the largest economy in the world, the U.S., is generated by public pensions, medicaid for the poor, public education and affordable housing. These systems of provision have little to do with the free market, according to economist James Galbraith.

[ 04 June 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
thwap
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5062

posted 04 June 2004 10:20 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jason,

It's "unnecessary."

I hope you enjoyed Fidel's helpful post about the mythology of the "free market" in Chile.

Thank you for your extended lists of unsubstantiated claims about the superiority of the private sector. Utterly meaningless, but it's nice to hear someone actually championing the gold standard again.

no it isn't.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged

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