Terrorist's Family Proudly Displays Hamas Flags

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(IsraelNN.com) Israeli security forces have razed the home of the murderous terrorist who murdered eight Merkaz HaRav yeshiva students. He lived in Jabel Mukabar, a neighborhood just east of Jerusalem's East Talpiyot neighborhood.

His family set up a mourners' tent outside the ruins, and hung Hamas flags all around it.

Police denied reports that the murderous terrorist had once worked for Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav. However, he was a driver who often transported children and others, and there were reports that he had occasionally been hired by the yeshiva. His last trip was Thursday evening to Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav, where his van was found after the attack with ammunition inside.

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I am reminded of the saying "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind".

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Samuels' father said the boy was in the library at the time of the attack and hid under something.

His father said the boy was shot in the feet and legs, while the hospital said he suffered gunshot wounds all over his body, including the stomach.

The gunman was later shot and killed by an army officer on the scene.

Israeli officials said the victims, who were laid to rest Friday, were aged 15 to 19 except one, who was 26. One of the victims was identified as 16-year-old Avraham David Moses, an American citizen whose parents moved to Israel in the 1990s.

Hamas claims responsibility, then backtracks

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What crime did his family committ?

When was the trial?

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Originally posted by Briguy:
This guy was armed with a gun, not a bomb.

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Israel is an outlaw state. To our shame, our successive governments and (unfortunately) opposition parties hesitate to treat it like any apartheid aggressor rogue entity. To our greater shame, it has defenders on a progressive board.

ETA: I shouldn't assume that Israel's crimes are all common knowledge, just because I've been militating against them for the past 40 years.

One good start would be the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:
CBC is reporting that one of the injured is a Canadian citizen:

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Sometimes its worth it look back a bit in history and compare reaction:

So today, Canada's official response to these killings is simple enough to understand:

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Alan Baker, Israel's ambassador to Canada, said he was not only "shocked and saddened" by the attack, but also "deeply distraught" over learning a Canadian was among the most injured.

"My wishes are with the families and friends whose loved ones have been victimized by this terrible tragedy," Baker said Friday in a statement. "This development demonstrates that everyone is a potential victim of terror.”

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While not so long ago, Peter Mackay assured us that:

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The Israeli Embassy in Ottawa issued a news release Monday expressing its "deep sorrow" over the death of the Canadians.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told Foreign Minister Peter MacKay on Sunday "that Israel will be ready to assist in the efforts to safely transport Canadian nationals out of Lebanon," the release said.

"Israel is doing its utmost to avoid civilian casualties and to target Hezbollah strategic positions, command posts and weapons depots," it said.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Well that is the thing isn't it. They didn't even really mention it. It's just in passing, as a way of getting to the Hamas connection for the killer. Just a routine house demolition.

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What's most frightening about this suppression is that it likely isn't even a conscious effort by the writers, editors or readers. The worst brutality is unspoken, and not even because it's taboo. It merely isn't.
(Can't spell this morning...)

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

[ 08 March 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Collective punishment is never justified.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Yes Makwa it is till the case. And Uninist while I take exception of your characterization of Israel as a criminal state, I wonder (not for terms of comparision but to better understand where you are coming from) what type of state/government would you label Hamas?Gaza?

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Originally posted by Cueball:
At this point Gaza is a memory of an idea, of a concept of a begining that never was.

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I take exception of your characterization of Israel as a criminal state -ohara

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Israel is not only a criminal state, it is a recidivist criminal state.

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I wonder (not for terms of comparision but to better understand where you are coming from) what type of state/government would you label Hamas?Gaza? -ohara

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History tells us that it had always been in the language of colonizers, oppressors, extra judicial killers (criminals), their mouth pieces and supporters, any resistance is terrorism. It was the case with the Algerian Front de Liberation Populaire, with the S.A.'s African National Congress and many other examples.

That the colonizers and their supporters say so, it does not make the case. Simply propaganda to perpetuate a status quo, by depicting resistance as terrorism. When the reality is that they are resistance movements.

[ 08 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

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Originally posted by viigan:
" I take exception of your characterization of Israel as a criminal state,"

Israel can be characterized as a criminal state from its founding, to its conduct with its neighbours and the local population they supplanted to create the state.
I don't think the Old Testament qualifies as a legal deed.

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Originally posted by adam stratton:

Israel is not only a criminal state, it is a recidivist criminal state.

Please tell us, ohara, how many UN resoluions has Israel simply ignored, say, since 1967.

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I am referring here to the singling out of Israel for differential, if not discriminatory, treatment amongst the family of nations... Some examples include the World Conference Against Racism in Durban, which turned into a conference of racism against Israel, where Israel was the only state singled out for indictment; the UN Commission on Human Rights, where Israel is the only country singled out for a country-specific condemnation even before the annual session begins, where 30 percent of all resolutions condemn Israel alone, while the major human rights violators enjoy exculpatory immunity; the Conference of the Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions, where Israel became the first country in fifty-two years to be the object of a country-specific indictment, while the perpetrators of horrific killing fields -- be it Cambodia, Sudan, etc. -- have never been the object of a contracting party's enquiry; the systemic and systematic discrimination against Israel in the major decision-making bodies of the United Nations and its specialized agencies; the exclusion of Magen David Adom, Israel's humanitarian aid agency, from the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies; the conversion of refugee camps under UNRWA's management into bases and sanctuaries of incitement and terror, in breach of fundamental principles of international humanitarian and refugee law.

The denial of international due process to Israel and the Jewish people in the international arena refers to the disenfranchisement of Israel in the international arena, where, for example, Israel emerges as the only country denied "standing" in any regional grouping in the United Nations, which resulted in Israel (and Jewish NGOs) being excluded from the Regional Conference in Iran, where the regional Asian position for the World Conference Against Racism was prepared.

"Legalized" anti-Semitism refers to the international "legal" character of this anti-Semitism, in which, in a kind of Orwellian inversion of law and language, United Nations human rights bodies become the mask under which this "teaching of contempt" is carried out...

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Yes Adam only you have the answer ...everyone else is wrong -Stckholm

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Now you are confused. No, I am not Israel

[ 08 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

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Abu Dhaim did not meet the typical profile of Palestinian attackers, police said. Major General Ilan Franco, the commander of Jerusalem district police, told Channel 2 that the attacker was "not known to the security forces."

"He was a normal man, who worked as a driver, who was going to wed soon," Franco said.

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Israel approves settlement growth

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Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has approved a plan to build up to 750 new homes in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank.

The project was first signed off in 1999, but stopped two years later after Palestinian labourers refused to go on.

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Originally posted by ohara:
I have dear friends that actually live in Givat Ze'eev. This is an area that will remain within Israeli jurisdiction. It is land that will be traded with other land if negotiations ever get done. For those who do not know it is literally a 7 Minute drive from the centre of jerusalem to Givat Ze'ev.

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Why do you suppose it is that when Palestinian civilians die in Israeli military actions - we never see Israelis popping champagne corks with glee over the death toll among Palestinian civilians?

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Originally posted by ohara:
I have dear friends that actually live in Givat Ze'eev. This is an area that will remain within Israeli jurisdiction. It is land that will be traded with other land if negotiations ever get done. For those who do not know it is literally a 7 Minute drive from the centre of jerusalem to Givat Ze'ev.

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By tank?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Incidentally, after this latest terrorist attack there was lots of news coverage over Palestinians jumping for joy and passing out cookies and cakes because they were so gleeful over the death of 8 students.

Why do you suppose it is that when Palestinian civilians die in Israeli military actions - we never see Israelis popping champagne corks with glee over the death toll among Palestinian civilians?

Is it that there actually are fireworks and celebratory parties all over Israel every time people hear of Palestinian civilians dying - but the press doesn't report on them? Or is there some other reason?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I can't remember ever reading that after being told that Palestinian civilians including school children were killed - anyone in Israel decided this was something to celebrate.

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[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Is it that there actually are fireworks and celebratory parties all over Israel every time people hear of Palestinian civilians dying - but the press doesn't report on them? Or is there some other reason?

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B.L. Zeebub LLD: I'd say it's because of the way Israelis conceive of themselves. They tell themselves they're the enlightened occupiers, administering and disciplining the unruly child-savages in the Territories. They say to themselves in self-pitying tones, "this will hurt us more than it hurts them."

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You might be interested in the following remarks of Israeli dissident Michel Warschawski:

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There was a time when the Zionist left was accused of “shooting and then crying.” Today we can say that it bombs and then whimpers in self-pity. Far from fighting for the society that it dreamed of not all that long ago, it is turning inward. It is accusing the whole world, the Palestinians first and foremost, of being responsible for its sorry fate, and dreaming of a more normal future in Europe or the United States. Undoubtedly this will only strengthen the forces of reaction in Israel.

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Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) continued their military operations in the Gaza Strip. Over the past 24 hours, IOF carried out several air raids against civilian targets and resistance fighters. As a result, eight Palestinians were killed. Two of the victims were unarmed civilians, one of them a child. With yesterday's victims the tally since Wednesday, 27 February, till time of publication, soared to 108 victims killed, including 54 unarmed civilians. The civilians killed included 26 children and five women. In addition, dozens were injured, many of them still in serious condition.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
http://onefamilyfund.org/Default.aspx?tabid=1219

Here is some information on the young students murdered in this attack.

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Yeah, right, sure - this is another piece of crap website that gives "Greater Israel" Biblical names to illegally occupied Palestinian territories:

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Ofer Amir, Area Coordinator for Judea, Samaria , and Central Region

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Luckily, Google has a "family filter" which screens out chauvinist aggressive stuff like this.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by unionist:

By tank?

I actually thought you claimed to oppose the occupation. My bad.

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Originally posted by ohara:
I do not oppose Negotiation.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Yeah, right, sure - this is another piece of crap website that gives "Greater Israel" Biblical names to illegally occupied Palestinian territories:
[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Well, I guess in that case we jsut shouldn't mourn the 8 young yeshiva students who were murdered. I mean, if the source has an ideological slant we don't like, there's no use.

And, yeah, what a horrible organization this is!!

"OneFamily began with a selfless act by one twelve-year-old girl.

Michal Belzberg was preparing for her Bat Mitzvah in Jerusalem when a suicide bomber struck the crowded Sbarro restaurant in the city's downtown. The attack murdered 15 and wounded 130 Jewish men, women, and children. It was the most deadly attack in Jerusalem since the beginning of the Intifadah in September 2000.

In the wake of such sorrow and destruction Michal felt she could not hold a celebration, so she cancelled her Bat Mitzvah party in order to contribute the party's funds to victims of the attack. In addition to that, she encouraged friends and family to give the victims everything they planned on giving her.

Michal and the Belzberg family raised over $100,000, but quickly realized that was not nearly enough to address the suffering of the growing number of Israelis affected by terror. In that moment, OneFamily was born.

Since its inception, OneFamily has grown into a large volunteer-based non-profit organization providing much-needed assistance to thousands of terror victims throughout Israel on a daily basis."

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Indiana Jones ]

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:

Well, I guess in that case we jsut shouldn't mourn the 8 young yeshiva students who were murdered. I mean, if the source has an ideological slant we don't like, there's no use.

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I mourn them. They were misled by one set of fanatics, murdered by another set of fanatics, and are now being exploited by the first set of fanatics.

I mourn them as innocent victims of the ugly circumstances into which they were thrown.

I mourn them as human beings, as fellow Jews. They remind me in the most brutal way of the peril daily faced by the Jewish people of the region because of the shameful policies of "their" state.

I mourn them in the same way I mourn the far more numerous children, women, and men of Palestine who have been exiled and imprisoned and disenfranchised and humiliated and maimed and murdered over the decades, and whose suffering continues to this day.

Wouldn't it be much better to charge any possible accomplices (as the killer is now dead) in fair trials and see them put behind bars if found guilty? What does razing the family of the man's house accomplish - other than put them in exactly the emotional state that Hamas wants them in.

If I was a parent whose child was just murdered by at Merkaz HaRav (very hypothetical as my children will never be attending religious schools), I would be furious with the killer but also furious with the Israeli government.

They raze houses and are also proceeding with a 750 unit housing project on previously unsettled land. Do you agree with this?

You will never find me defending Hamas here, or claiming that they are a legitimate vehicle for resistance, as their Charter, methods and purposes terrify me (as they should any progressive-minded person). However, I would venture that say that it only a percentage of Palestinians who agree with the extreme view of killing/getting rid of all Jews in the Middle East. Similarily, I believe that only a minority of Israelis agree with the oppressive policies of the current regime. It is these two groups of extremists who are holding everyone else hostage.

You can find countless examples (I promise to link at some point and not be so lazy) of Israelis and Palestinians playing in symphonies together, working together, going to school together and sincerely wanting to live in peace together. Until the religious fanatics on both sides (who believe they are the chosen ones who belong of every inch of "religious" land) lose power and influence, the situation will not improve.

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Originally posted by unionist:

I mourn them as innocent victims of the ugly circumstances into which they were thrown.

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They weren't victims of "ugly circumstances." They were victims of a cold-blooded murderer.

And when you describe them as victims of circumstance, you provide a measure of excuse to the killer.

It would be like saying the victims of Columbine or Virginia Tech were victims of inadequate gun laws. yes, tougher gun laws are a sensible policy but slack laws are not the main bearer of responsibility. it's the killers themselves.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
But this didn't start as a political thread. It was about shock and sadness over a terrible tragedy.

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No it didn't. Learn to read. This thread started as a condemnation of the Israeli outlaws for destroying a family's home in their bloodlust. Do you need a map to show you how to scroll up and read it for yourself? Of course, you've forgotten about that house demolition already, because your cold partisan heart holds not the tiniest corner of regret for such acts of revenge.

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And you couldn't resist politicizing it and using it as an opportunity to attack Israel.

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As to your point that the majority on both sides want peace, I'm not sure. I was in the region not too long ago and spent a lot of time in both Israel and the West Bank with people from all walks of life from Zionsit settlers to hamas fanatics to victims of terror to Palestinians living in refugee camps. On both sides, I met some of the nicest, most generous people you'd want to meet and on both sides, I met some of the most vile, hateful people you could imagine.

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Originally posted by unionist:

No it didn't. Learn to read. This thread started as a condemnation of the Israeli outlaws for destroying a family's home in their bloodlust. Do you need a map to show you how to scroll up and read it for yourself?

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
And when you describe them as victims of circumstance, you provide a measure of excuse to the killer.

It would be like saying the victims of Columbine or Virginia Tech were victims of inadequate gun laws. yes, tougher gun laws are a sensible policy but slack laws are not the main bearer of responsibility. it's the killers themselves.

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Indiana Jones: ...it's the killers themselves.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Indiana Jones, are you really claiming that the assault on Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav wasn't political?

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:

OF COURSE it was political. The fact that it was "political" doesn't justify it. Islamic extremists flying planes into the world trade centre is "political." Right wing militia nutcases blowing up a federal government building in Oklahoma is "political." Anti-abortion fanatics shooting doctors or bombing clinics is "political." The KKK lynching blacks is "political". So what? Targetting and murdering innocents to advance a political agenda - any agenda - is never acceptable. And blaming it on anyone else's political agenda is vile. You wouldn't apply the blame the victim mentality in those other circumstances.

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They weren't victims of "ugly circumstances." They were victims of a cold-blooded murderer.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
Everywhere. People are attributing the massacre of young students to recent Israeli military actions in Gaza.

Actions that were in response, by the way, to the daily barrage of rockets fired from Gaza into israeli towns.

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I personally think the murder of the Yeshiva students had little if anything to do with "recent Israeli military actions in Gaza". I don't see any connection at all, though not ruling out that one may emerge.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
"OF COURSE it was political" yelled "Indiana Jones".
Oh. Because the following bullshit sentence
clearly had the effect of denying the event's political nature.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Because by denying that Arabs are acting in self-defence, courageous resistants fighting back against nearly insurmountable odds, you are a acting as an apologist and a cover for this escalating genocide.

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Okay, let me see if I've got this straight: walking into a yeshiva library and gunning down a group of unarmed teenagers as they studied and prayed is 'self defense'? These 15 year old Talmud scholars really posed a threat to the killer, right? His life was in imminent danger if he didn't shoot as many of them as possible?

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Because by denying that Arabs are acting in self-defence, courageous resistants fighting back against nearly insurmountable odds, you are a acting as an apologist and a cover for this escalating genocide.

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Let's try that here.

Hm.

Gosh, I can't think WHAT might drive a young Palestinian to enter a leading institution of the settler's movement and do something like that.

I don't think even the British in Northern Ireland showed as much cold contempt for the civilian population as the Israeli state has for the people of Gaza; they certainly didn't butcher them at the same rate.

I don't think acts of violence will advance the peace process. But from the Palestinian point of view, 60 years of occupation have taught them Israel doesn't want peace, it wants the land under their feet and will literally kill to get it, as it has done since its inception. Just look at any map that plots the gradual expansion of the Israeli state into surrounding Palestinian land.

I can forgive some of them for losing all hope, as the young man who just snuffed out all those zealot's lives, including his own, must have done.

But perhaps I'm wrong? Am I mistaken in believing this yeshiva was associated with the most reactionary elements of the settler's movement? I'm sorry, but WHAT exactly is it the settlers are busy doing on Palestinian land? If its such a noble enterprise, why are they so heavily armed? And WHAT sort of religious school has armed students hanging about ready to kill at a moment's notice? (Though from the yeshiva's pov I suppose it was a good thing he was there!)

The Israeli state has been engaged in the incremental and systematic displacement of the entire Arab populations of the West Bank and Gaza for decades. It aims to so degrade the quality of life for the refugees still living there that they give up and emigrate, and reinforces the message by regularly shedding Palestinian blood and destroying their livelihoods.

They're succeeding: most of the Gaza population are dependent on UN food aid; malnutrition rates are so high Amnesty International recently spoke out on the subject. The eastern Mediterranean chokes on Gaza's untreated sewage. Israel could give a shit.

The loss of occasional Israeli civilian lives is considered acceptable collateral damage by what is after all a hardright militaristic state; indeed such atrocities are cynically and coldly exploited by the state apparatus to advance its lunatic and demonstrably unpeaceable goals.

But in the west, noone is allowed to speak like that. The room falls silent, people look shocked, like you just pooped on the carpet in the lobby of the Hilton Hotel.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Merowe ]

My question to you is simple and if you care to respond, that would be to your credit.

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Originally posted by unionist:

I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, martin, but if you're suggesting that anyone who murders non-combattant civilians, irrespective of the circumstances, is a "courageous resistant", I have to register my violent disagreement. War crimes and crimes against humanity are just that - no one gets a pass on that. And I must say that unless we make that very clear, we are doing a huge disservice to the Palestinian struggle, who have seen their cause undermined for many years by stupid pointless criminal adventurous acts which hasn't advanced their liberation by one iota.

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This is murder plain and simple. It is, regardless of the cause illegal under the Geneva convention to kill unarmed people, not engaged in combat in a time of war. This principle holds for all people wether they are in an official army or a militia, or civilian. Until such a time as someone is engaged directly in combat they are a civilian and to be treated as such.

This is precisely why targetted assassination of Palestinian militants, who are not in combat, is strictly against the Geneva convention, and also murder.

Indiana Jones, I see that you have not returned to the Israel Incinerates Palestinian Labour Union thread to correct the disinformation you were spreading about Arafat having "died of cancer". I didn't think that you would. My question to you is: "Are we ever going to get anything out of you other than disinformation, meaningless tropes and one sided partisan philosphical gerrymandering?"

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Merowe:
Context is everything. When people, usually young men, run amok with assault weapons in western countries there is a passing interest in the personalities and circumstances that might have led to such extreme antisocial acts. (Unless they're in uniform. Then it's ok; then they get medals.)

Let's try that here.

Hm.

Gosh, I can't think WHAT might drive a young Palestinian to enter a leading institution of the settler's movement and do something like that.

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It has not slipped my attention that Israeli investigators seem to have shown little interest in establishing the "facts of the case" either, as they promptly destroyed the house in which a great deal of forensic evidence could be found. Perhaps they too, don't really feel the need to establish "motive" in this case as they feel it is self-evident.

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Originally posted by adam stratton:
Indiana Jones,

My question to you is simple and if you care to respond, that would be to your credit.

History taught us that France ceased to be "victim of terrorism" once it rescinded its colonialist character towards Algeria and evacuated from Algerian territories. How about Israel doing the same towards Palestine and withdraw to its pre-1967 territories?

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They SHOULD do that, obviously.

Whether that will end terror? I honestly don't know. I hope so but I'm skeptical. Israel already withdrew from Gaza and Gaza is still used as a base for launching rockets into Israeli towns on an almost daily basis.

They have not withdrawn from Gaza. Nothing could be further from the truth. What they have done is withdrawn Israeli civilians from Gaza.

Israel continues to have a more or less constant military presence in Gaza, continues to extract and hold "export taxes" from Gaza, and control the borders and so on and so forth.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Indiana Jones, I see that you have not returned to the Israel Incinerates Palestinian Labour Union thread to correct the disinformation you were spreading about Arafat having "died of cancer". I didn't think that you would.
[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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You don't even know the facts of the case. You are actually running around telling people that Arafat died of cancer, when in fact doctors on the scene explicitly ruled out cancer and no autopsy was ever held. You would think that someone speaks with such evident interest and who speaks with such apparent authority would actually bother to check his facts. In fact the official report by french doctors stated that Arafat died of a "mystery blood disease."

That is a qoute.

I never said he was poisoned, I left the possibility "open" since of course one theory is as good as another, when no official cause of death has been determined.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:

I never said he was poisoned, I left the possibility "open" since of course one theory is as good as another, when no official cause of death has been determined.
[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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In that case, you won't mind if I leave "open" the possibility that you spent last night with a prostitute, since one theory is as good as another.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:

In that case, you won't mind if I leave "open" the possibility that you spent last night with a prostitute, since one theory is as good as another.

I was wrong that it was cancer. I recalled at the time that that was the report. If they want to clarify it, they can go ahead and release the autopsy.

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Perhaps I am a prostitute? Other than revealing yourself as a total cad, I don't see what the point of your remark is.

Furthermore, can you read? There was no autopsy. There was the official report of the French medical authorities at the time of death which said he died of a "mystery blood disease". It's clear your bias even prevents you from properly interpretting simple english sentences, when they are right in front of you.

They also ruled out common poisons, but not the sophisticated military grade ones, which they did not test for and are hard to detect anyway. Moreover, Mossad has used sophisticated military grade poisons in assassination attempts in the past, and this is a matter of public record.

I submit that the entire breadth of your opinion based on unsubstantiated rumour and common knowledge myths, and your opinions are as worth as much as the "facts" upon which they are based.

This stands regardless of how self-assured you are about your presentation of the falsehoods you have absorbed.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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This is precisely why targetted assassination of Palestinian militants, who are not in combat, is strictly against the Geneva convention, and also murder.

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IMO IDF soldiers in the occupied territories are legitimate targets for freedom fighters.

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Originally posted by ohara:
How can you argue that Palestinian militants, arguably soldiers, are not legitimate targets as well?

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Originally posted by ohara:
Let me see if I understand you, in your world the victim (Hamas terrorists)no matter what they do are never to be touched. However Israeli soldiers are always targets for attack?

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When you say "Hamas terrorists", do you mean all members and officials of Hamas, or those committing war crimes or crimes against humanity?

When you say "Israeli soldiers", do you mean a reservist sitting at home with their family in civilian life, or on a "mission" in "Judea" or "Samaria" or Gaza?

Or do you not really want answers to your questions, but just try to set traps for idiots?

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Originally posted by ohara:
How can you argue that Palestinian militants, arguably soldiers, are not legitimate targets as well?

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These facts are particularly glaring in the light of the fact that Israel professes not to impose capital punishment.

Areil Sharon was acting way beyond his authority, even by the standards of Israeli law, and contrary to international law as well. Clearly, a criminal gang of thugs has taken over the internal workings of the Israeli security apparatus and using it as a tool to commit extrajudicial killings, which by any standard are still murders.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes. State execution of unarmed non-combatants, whatever their political status, is still murder, plainly if there has been no trial of the accused, and no opportunity for that person to raise a defence.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Now, let me ask you this, would you have considered Yasser Arafat to be the leader "of a terrorist group that planned and encouraged the murder of Israelis."

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Now, let me ask you this, would you have considered Yasser Arafat to be the leader "of a terrorist group that planned and encouraged the murder of Israelis."

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It's not "cold-blooded murder" on one side and "actions" on the other, it's a war, waged by Israel against a population it is gradually destroying and expropriating, with your help!
Because by denying that Arabs are acting in self-defence, courageous resistants fighting back against nearly insurmountable odds, you are a acting as an apologist and a cover for this escalating genocide. Since you apprently have no shame, have some of mine at reading your ongoing crap here.

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Martin - you haven't responded yet to a couple of questions about this post, so I am going to ask again. Are you seriously describing a murderer of unarmed children as a courageous resistant??

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:

So, if during World War 2, we had a chance to assassinate Adolf Hitler we should ahve passed it up?

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It is not world war two.

Given your opinions I don't see why you are so squeemish about the idea that Mossad did Arafat in through poison? What is your problem, the method of execution would not have been manly enough, or what? Rockets are so much more invigorating as a means of disposing of geriatric or lame Arabs, I have to agree.

And look at this! Here we have the present Prime Minister of Israel, saying pretty much this same thing when he was vice Prime Minister:

quote:

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In September 2003, Sharon's vice prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said of Arafat that "killing him is definitely one of the options." He added: "We are trying to eliminate all the heads of terror, and Arafat is one of the heads of terror."

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What killed Arafat? Infection a mystery

Yet for some reason you take it in stride that Palestinian leadership can be executed by rocket fire from an Apache helicopter, yet start accusing people of being "consipracy theorists" when the suggest that Yasser Arafat might have been on the same list as Amhed Yassin, and Dr. Rantisi. I remember it as the season when the entire cadre of top Palestinian leadership came to an untimely demise.

Your inconsistency is matched only by the willful gullibility that is required when maintaining the level of righteous indignation you seem to be able to muster in the cause of the moral turpitude you are propogating.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

I didn't try and establish it as a fact. I established it as a distinct possibility, based on the history of assassination by Israel of Palestinians. Your own statement supports my view that it is indeed a possibility. It certainly can not be ruled out whith people like you around.

So in fact. You support the practice of execution without trial. Thugs. Death squads, etcetra. No wonder they kill Israeli children, with people like you as Israel's propogandists, its easy why they would not feel any moral injunction against it, you show none.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
It is not WW2.

No wonder they kill Israeli children
[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes. The whole thing is disgusting. Right form top to bottom. However, as we can see, buddy here, thinks that you can just go around killing old men, and people in wheelchairs because the Jerusalem Post says they are bad people. He read it in the paper so it must be true.

What more can I say.

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So, if during World War 2, we had a chance to assassinate Adolf Hitler we should ahve passed it up?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:

But why stoop to this level yourself and agree that killing Israeli children is justifiable?

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Where did I say it was justifiable? I just pointed out that when people are faced with injustice, they are less likely to apply justice.

This suprises you?

Why is the particular observance of traditional moral sensibilities, required specifically of Palestinians, or it seems so. I have yet to see you show your outrage at people such as IJ here justifying the massacre or Palestinians children, or physically disabled geriatrics, or calling upon the mods to make them stop justifying it.

What is up with that?

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Where did I say it was justifiable? I just pointed out that when people are faced with injustice, they are less likely to apply justice.

This suprises you?

Why is the particular observance of traditional moral sensibilities, required specifically of Palestinians, or it seems so. I have yet to see you show your outrage at people such as IJ here justifying the massacre or Palestinians children, or calling upon the mods to make them stop justifying it.

What is up with that?

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Further up the thread I have posts calling IJ's views disgusting and decrying the methods used by the Israeli government. Particularly the injustice of razing homes and putting up new settlements on occupied/disputed land.