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» babble   » current events   » international news and politics   » Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers - heavy fighting reported in Southern Lebanon

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Author Topic: Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers - heavy fighting reported in Southern Lebanon
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 12 July 2006 08:26 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli PM calls latest kidnappings 'act of war'

quote:
Jul. 12, 2006. 10:19 AM
ASSOCIATED PRESS

BEIRUT Hezbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid Wednesday and dozens of Israeli troops crossed into Lebanese territory in warplanes, tanks and gunboats to hunt for the captives.

At least six Israeli soldiers were killed in the Hezbollah attack and Israeli response, the Lebanese officials said. The Israeli army confirmed casualties among its troops but did not give details.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called the attack an act of war and his cabinet prepared to approve more military action in Lebanon a second front in the fight against Islamic militants by Israel, which already is waging an operation to free a captured soldier in the Gaza Strip.

An Israeli plane dropped a 225-kilogram bomb on a home in the Gaza Strip before dawn Wednesday in an assassination attempt against a top Hamas official. The blast killed nine members of a Palestinian family including a four-year-old boy. The head of Hamas military wing was wounded but escaped, Israel said.

Meanwhile, Israeli jets struck deep into southern Lebanon, blasting bridges and Hezbollah positions and killing two civilians, Lebanese security officials said. Israeli gunboats also pounded Hezbollah positions, officials said.



From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 12 July 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
This was just plain stupid. Feeds right into those Israelis who can now tell Olmert "I told you so"..just stupid
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 12 July 2006 04:46 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
Bullies certainly like to bitch when something splatters on them.

Just the excuse to bully some more.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Bubbles ]


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 05:53 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bubbles:
Bullies certainly like to bitch when something splatters on them.

Just the excuse to bully some more.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Bubbles ]


are you people kidding me?

could someone on this forum be honest enough to simply condemn the Hizbollah? Plain and simple: Say it is a bad group of people. Without any qualifications, explanations. Bad!

If one is against violence--any act of violence should be condemned. Any group promoting violence should be condemned. Please, say it with me: Hizbollah is BAD!


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 12 July 2006 06:32 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And what, "Israel GOOD, GOOD!!"?

I don't think so, pal. You won't find those mindless drones here. Well, maybe a couple.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 06:37 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
And what, "Israel GOOD, GOOD!!"?

I don't think so, pal. You won't find those mindless drones here. Well, maybe a couple.


Did I say anything about Israel? I just want people to say that the Hizbollah is bad. That is all. If you believe that war is a bad thing, you should say that the Hizbolah is a very bad organization. If you cannot do it in public, perhaps do it in the privacy of your own home. Maybe even make a tape recording of it as you say it, and play it back to hear what it sounds like. Trust me, it is a good thing to do.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 06:40 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:
Any group promoting violence should be condemned.

Judge not, lest ye be judged....

Hezbollah is BAD! (Well, not when they're building hospitals and stuff, I guess...)

Please, say it with me: Israel is BAD! (Well, not when they're building hospitals and stuff, I guess...)

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 July 2006 06:44 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For those who are interested in a less simplistic approach than that urged by Gregori -- for those who want to read about Hezbollah's birth in the 1982-85 period in response to the Israeli invasion of Southern Lebanon and about its role in bringing about the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 -- a good starting point is Wikipedia.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 06:44 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can you say Hizbolah is BAD, finish the post. Then, in another post say whatever else you want to say? I am making a simple request to condemn Hizbollah and all the violence it has done. Any act of violence deserves being condemned. I am not discounting other thoughts you may have. I just want you to be honest with your views on violence and admit that any form of violence has no justification. So, once again: Hizbollah is BAD. Good luck...
From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 06:48 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:
I just want you to be honest with your views on violence and admit that any form of violence has no justification.

I won't admit that at all. I reject doctrinal pacifism.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 06:49 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
For those who are interested in a less simplistic approach than that urged by Gregori -- for those who want to read about Hezbollah's birth in the 1982-85 period in response to the Israeli invasion of Southern Lebanon and about its role in bringing about the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 -- a good starting point is Wikipedia.

to be morally clean, one cannot pick and choose the forms of violence that are good or bad. all acts of violence should be condemned. Even if you believe that the formation of the Hizbollah was justified to achieve a specific purpose, is that reason still there? One cannot advocate to "kill all the war mongerers and violent people" without painiting oneself into a proverbial moral corner. if there is a group that causes violence against any other human being--that groups has to be condemned.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 06:51 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

I won't admit that at all. I reject doctrinal pacifism.


so, some people are free to produce violence while others are not? if these groups were, say for the sake of argument, of different religion or ethnicity someone might call you a racist.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
arthur
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posted 12 July 2006 06:52 PM      Profile for arthur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, to be morally clean...
From: cordova bay | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 06:53 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:

to be morally clean, one cannot pick and choose the forms of violence that are good or bad. all acts of violence should be condemned.


Nonsense! And what is "morally clean" supposed to mean? Either way, there is one thing that is sure, morality is a messy business. But I suppose you have it all sorted out...

Are you suggesting that the act of trying to stab someone and the act of punching a person trying to stab someone are equally condemnable?

So I guess you reject the entire hierarchy of violent crimes established by our legal system, and that of many other societies? We don't punish murder the same as kicking someone in the ass. Why do you suppose that is?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
ghlobe
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posted 12 July 2006 06:57 PM      Profile for ghlobe        Edit/Delete Post
Hezbollah is nothing but the military/political arm of the Iranian government in Lebanon. Without the Iranian financial and logistic support, it would collapse within a month.

There is a saying in Persian that could be translated literally as: Don't poke others with your finger, as they may knock you out cold with their fist. Hezbollah has obviously been asking for the fist.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 06:57 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:

so, some people are free to produce violence while others are not? if these groups were, say for the sake of argument, of different religion or ethnicity someone might call you a racist.



I didn't say that at all. I said that I reject blanket pacifism - that is, I think there are situations when violence is justified.

As for the issue of who gets to be violent and who doesn't, we are all equally free to be violent, it's how we judge and mete out consequences that matters. Your hypothetical is beside the point, because I would reject catagorising the justice of violence according to "ethnicity" or some other factor. Rather, the particulars of the situation are what matters - the why and how and with what far outweigh the who.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 07:20 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok, so what act can justify, say, firing a rocket at a town of people who just live there, go to school, have babies, get married, go to work at a candy factory, or grow oranges?

doesn't matter who does it--it is bad isn't it?

so if the Hizbollah were to do something like that, would you step up and say: "Bad Hizbollah, Bad!" ?

this is a totally hypothetical situation by the way.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 07:26 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Are you suggesting that the act of trying to stab someone and the act of punching a person trying to stab someone are equally condemnable?


self defence, yes.

back to the Hizbollah, what was their excuse this time around?


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 07:36 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:

self defence, yes.


Well, now you're picking and choosing. And here I thought you said that, "to be morally clean, one cannot pick and choose the forms of violence that are good or bad."

Morality, the ol' bugger, it'll get you everytime...

quote:
back to the Hizbollah, what was their excuse this time around?

You'll have to ask them, I haven't made any excuses for them, have I...

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 07:39 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by arthur:
Ah, to be morally clean...

For best results, I recommend using new and improved Nihilism.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 12 July 2006 07:44 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
self defence, yes.

back to the Hizbollah, what was their excuse this time around?

Defence of a fellow Arabic people who are being persecuted by Israel, how about that? A state (Israel) which has was only driven out of their opwn backyard by the self-same Hizbollah, one which still doesn't recognise Palestinian Arabs as a people separate from other Arab nations BTw. But then irony is always lost on apologists for arbitrary power.

Oh, and Israel wasn't the innocent victim in all the previous wars -mostly between neighbouring Arab states, not the Palestinian Arabs now under seige. (irony again) The only mandate for their original invasion has been ignored by Israel in subsequent land grabs. (yet more)

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 07:45 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

You'll have to ask them, I haven't made any excuses for them, have I...

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


I thought you somehow dragged Israel into this when I originally asked people to condemn Hizbollah. Why exactly did you do this? I misunderstood what you were trying to say or do? Was it some sort of excuse for the Hozbollah? A justification for their violent action?


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
ghlobe
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posted 12 July 2006 07:48 PM      Profile for ghlobe        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
Defence of a fellow Arabic people who are being persecuted by Israel, how about that? A state (Israel) which still doesn't recognise Palestinian Arabs as a people separate from other Arab nations BTw. But then irony is always lost on apologists for arbitrary power.

If Hezbollah's action is justified on the pretext of an on-going war between Israel and Arabs, then Israel's war-like response to Lebanon is equally justifiable.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 07:49 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
Defence of a fellow Arabic people who are being persecuted by Israel, how about that? A state (Israel) which still doesn't recognise Palestinian Arabs as a people separate from other Arab nations BTw. But then irony is always lost on apologists for arbitrary power.

Oh, and Israel wasn't the innocent victim in all the previous wars -mostly between neighbouring Arab states, not the Palestinian Arabs now under seige. (Irony again) The only mandate for their original invasion has been ignored by Israel in subsequent land grabs. (yet more)


I am not quite sure what you are saying, but it feels like we agree on one point--the other states like Syria and Iran should just but out and let these two people sit down and come to an agreement. All kinds of problems occur when the outsiders try to meddle. Doesn't just happen in the middle east. Check out the parallel thread on Ukraine. Am I the only one who has this feeling that Iran really wanted to divert attention of the world buy encouraging Hamas and Hizbollah to stir stuff? How's that for a consiparcy theory?

I think the Palestinian Arabs are the most exploited people in the world. Not by Israel, but by all these countries who try and dictate what they should and should not accept out of their own, selfish interests and ego.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Gregori ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 07:51 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:

I thought you somehow dragged Israel into this when I originally asked people to condemn Hizbollah. Why exactly did you do this? I misunderstood what you were trying to say or do? Was it some sort of excuse for the Hozbollah? A justification for their violent action?



You mean this:

quote:
Judge not, lest ye be judged....

Hezbollah is BAD! (Well, not when they're building hospitals and stuff, I guess...)

Please, say it with me: Israel is BAD! (Well, not when they're building hospitals and stuff, I guess...)


Read it a couple more times...


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 12 July 2006 07:52 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To pretend that Israel's ongoing actions have nothing to do with this is dishonest. Many Lebanese are descendents of Palestinian refugees.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 12 July 2006 07:53 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:

if there is a group that causes violence against any other human being--that groups has to be condemned.

Sigh. The few remaining members of my family were liberated in 1944 by the Soviet armed forces, who killed many many people. Far more people, of course, were killed by their enemies. You want me to equate one violence with another in order to be "morally clean"? I'd rather be dirty, thanks very much.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 07:55 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
B.L. Zeebub LLD,
yep. that one. one of the versions at least.

didn't you know that the hizbollah (and the hamas) differentiates to the world between their armed "resistance" movement and their charitable organizations.

And, as I have said before, you are free to have strong opinions about israel. they may be jsutified. as soon as you post them on the same breath as a condemnation of hizbollah, it starts sounding like an apology.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Gregori ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 12 July 2006 07:58 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ghlobe:

If Hezbollah's action is justified on the pretext of an on-going war between Israel and Arabs, then Israel's war-like response to Lebanon is equally justifiable.


No it isn't. Israel continues to be the main roadblock to peace in the area, Israel is the only one with the power to end the 40 year occupation, Israel has been committing acts of violence in its invasion of Gaza which are way out of proportion. Israel is the invader in both cases and the main agressors. To argue otherwise (as Israeli apologists are) amounts to a declaration that one Israeli life (a soldier not a civilian) is worth more than all the lives of the other nation. That is unacceptable as are your ninteenth century ideas about justifiable wars of conquest. Thats what the UN was originally mandated to protect us against -at least in theory.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:
B.L. Zeebub LLD,
yep. that one. one of the versions at least.

didn't you know that the hizbollah (and the hamas) differentiates to the world between their armed "resistance" movement and their charitable organizations.

And, as I have said before, you are free to have strong opinions about israel. they may be jsutified. as soon as you post them on the same breath as a condemnation of hizbollah, it starts sounding like an apology.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Gregori ]


Thanks for the advice and your permission to have strong opinions.

The entire point was to counter your ridiculous Inquisition, your black/white read of Hezbollah, not to mention your (quickly dissembling) view that no violence is ever justified. Morality is dirty.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
To pretend that Israel's ongoing actions have nothing to do with this is dishonest. Many Lebanese are descendents of Palestinian refugees.

many Lebonese died fighting with these same refugees, who, in turn, died from the other lebanese. the whole region is a bloody mess (quite literally). in the mean time, the least Lebanon could have done is to accept their brothers in need and give them civil rights until such time that the desision is made on their status. Again, meddling and discrimination of the Palestinian people. As I have said before, people have got to stop using them as pawns in their ego play. People should stop meddling in their politics, and let them sit down and negotiate what they want, not what their distant cousin in Damascus wants for them.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 08:01 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:
People should stop meddling in their politics, and let them sit down and negotiate what they want, not what their distant cousin in Damascus wants for them.

Is that a call for Palestinian self-determination? Who do you suppose the chief meddler in Palestinian politics is?

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 08:02 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you, B.L. Zeebub LLD, believe that Hizbollah was justified in what they have done?
From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 08:05 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Is that a call for Palestinian self-determination? Who do you suppose the chief meddler in Palestinian politics is?

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


i would say, at the moment, Syria and Iran. They are the cheif sponsors of both Hamas and Hizbollah. The fact is, we have never seen Israel negotiate with just the palestinians. They do have a history negotiating with Egypt and Jordan--both successful and Syria nor Iran were a factor. What if Syria and Iran do but out, who here, besides me, is also hopeful that peace will happen sooner? Everything else has been tried and failed. Lets give this a whirl, shall we?


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 12 July 2006 08:09 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:

I think the Palestinian Arabs are the most exploited people in the world. Not by Israel, but by all these countries who try and dictate what they should and should not accept out of their own, selfish interests and ego.

I'm familiar with that old trope too, I generally stay away from threads about this subject mostly because I've already seen too much of it. Israel is the nation oppressing the Palestinians and taking their land as collective punishment, not Iran or Syria, and Israel continued to do so even doing the so-called Peace process. They never went as far as ageeing to give all of the West Bank back, only negotiate towards it, depending on X, Y or Z. The continuing colonization during the whole process made of a mockery of this too. That's one large reason why Arafat refused to accept the Jericho plus Gaza deal. (though I'm sure there are forces in the Muslim world who enjoy seeing this conflict continue to distract attention from their own failures, that again must be secondary to the facts on the ground to Palestinian non-citizens)


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 12 July 2006 09:09 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"i would say, at the moment, Syria and Iran. They are the cheif sponsors of both Hamas and Hizbollah. The fact is, we have never seen Israel negotiate with just the palestinians. They do have a history negotiating with Egypt and Jordan--both successful and Syria nor Iran were a factor. What if Syria and Iran do but out, who here, besides me, is also hopeful that peace will happen sooner? Everything else has been tried and failed. Lets give this a whirl, shall we?"

We cant give it a whirl, only Bush and Israeli leadership can. Get real here.
Well, to begin discerning the history of this mess, the west Bank was originally a part of Jordan. The 6 day war resulted in complete Israeli occupation. It took a 5-year intifada for palestinians to get their little "autonomy" state in 1993. Lets face it, over the decades Israelis were the ones who could recognize Palestinians and end occupation, but didnt try much.
Honestly, the 2000 Camp David talks were the closest to genuine peace.And yes, Isreal was negotiating JUST with Palestinians at the time.
PM Barak's plan was almost tolerable for Palestine.I dont remember Syria or Iran doing anything do sabotage it. Lets face it, Israeli elites did much of sabotaging themselves.

I understand you're being turned off by the violence, Grigori. Yet your approach is naive here. What do we accomplish by yelling "Hezbollah bad!"? Surely some Muslim countries use the conflict as a diversion, yet they are not the chief players. Well, maybe Syria. anyway these are red herrings, since I dont recall Hezbollah trying to invade Israel.

You said that putting Israel and Palestine at one table while shutting out others should be "given a whirl". Well the situation has always been very complex.
the point is that it is not "WE" who should give it a whirl, but Israel. Its not like Canada (oh yeah!) can apply enough pressure on them.
And since they are blasting the Gaza strip with US blessing, the peace process has been set back years.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: BetterRed ]


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gregori
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posted 12 July 2006 09:15 PM      Profile for Gregori     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:

I'm familiar with that old trope too, I generally stay away from threads about this subject mostly because I've already seen too much of it. Israel is the nation oppressing the Palestinians and taking their land as collective punishment, not Iran or Syria, and Israel continued to do so even doing the so-called Peace process. They never went as far as ageeing to give all of the West Bank back, only negotiate towards it, depending on X, Y or Z. The continuing colonization during the whole process made of a mockery of this too. That's one large reason why Arafat refused to accept the Jericho plus Gaza deal. (though I'm sure there are forces in the Muslim world who enjoy seeing this conflict continue to distract attention from their own failures, that again must be secondary to the facts on the ground to Palestinian non-citizens)


The relationship between Israel and Palestine is not one of master and pawn. It is of two enemies in direct conflict. The two sides are fighting each other and claim to hate each other. However, the relationship between Palestine and the rest of Arab World there is different. The rest of the Arab World is cheering on the brothers to win. Teir idea of what a "win" is going to be may not be exactly the same as the Palestinian's idea. An image comes to mind of two children fighting and a whole gang of people cheering them on. Neither child want to give up and "embarace" themselves. When one or the other child is not looking, several goons from within the crowd hurles rocks at them to keep the fight going. What will it take for this fight to stop? If a bigger bully were to come along and separate them--the fight will be over but the conflict will not be. If there were given a chance to come to their senses, tune out the voices cheering on them, and reconcile their differences, both the conflict and the fight will end. I view the other Arab states as using the Palestinian people as pawns. A similar imagery maybe applied to US relationship with Israel.
I think this forum is a microcosm of what is happening there. People take sides and argue with often unsubstantiated facts. People take sides often with no other reason as to side with their blood-line or a percieved victim. If a Palestinian were to read this forum, they would say: We must go on fighting as people think we are right". If an Israeli were to see this, they could say the same and their supporters. Instead, we should be calling on everyone to take a break. For other governments to mind their own business. And, yes, the election of Hamas as democratic as it was, was supported and funded by Syria and Iran hence being not totally fair and a form of meddling. I am not advocating turning a blind eye as who knows what blood bath might ensue. I am saying keeping an eye and being present while not venturing any opinions. These two nations have enough smart people to be able to find common ground. They already share one thing--affection for the same land and historical ties to it. There must be more.

[ 12 July 2006: Message edited by: Gregori ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 July 2006 09:21 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:
Do you, B.L. Zeebub LLD, believe that Hizbollah was justified in what they have done?

Oh, the inquisition again.....

First, we need to establish exactly what they've done. By this I don't mean the act of kidnapping, but the context that surrounds it. Words like "war" get thrown around by lauders of Israel all the time. Is there a war going on? If so, are soldiers a legitimate target, or not?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 12 July 2006 09:37 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
To me it does not look like much of a fight between two kids.

To me it seems to be more like some gangsters moved in some years ago and are trying to take over the neighbourhood with financial and war machinery help from some distant Godfather.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 12 July 2006 09:39 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:
to be morally clean, one cannot pick and choose the forms of violence that are good or bad. all acts of violence should be condemned.

How's the vegetarianism coming along? Do you wear leather? brush the insects from beneath your feet when you go outside?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 12 July 2006 09:55 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gregori:

many Lebonese died fighting with these same refugees, who, in turn, died from the other lebanese. the whole region is a bloody mess (quite literally). in the mean time, the least Lebanon could have done is to accept their brothers in need and give them civil rights until such time that the desision is made on their status. Again, meddling and discrimination of the Palestinian people. As I have said before, people have got to stop using them as pawns in their ego play. People should stop meddling in their politics, and let them sit down and negotiate what they want, not what their distant cousin in Damascus wants for them.



To pretend that Israel's actions have nothing to do with this is dishonest. As is ignoring the main thrust of the other guys arguments. That's why I play in this particular game so rarely anymore, I was tired of the circularity before I even registered at Rabble. Goodnight.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 July 2006 08:39 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CNN made an unconfirmed report that Hezbollah is seeking to transfer the captured Israeli soldiers to Iran. If true, the whole region is going to blow up.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 13 July 2006 09:08 AM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
IT did already:

quote:
Israeli warplanes also blasted runways at the main army air base in eastern Lebanon near Syria's border, the Associated Press reported.

Jets dropped two bombs on the runway at the Rayak air base in the eastern Bekaa Valley, which is just six kilometres west of the Syrian border.

The strikes on Beirut airport, which killed almost three dozen civilians and pounded three runways, came as Israel began air and naval blockades on Lebanon.

Israel defence officials said the blockades will "block the transfer of terrorists and weaponry."

The airport, located in the Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs of Beirut, was closed after the attacks and flights were diverted to Larnaca in nearby Cyprus.

Israeli Army Radio said the objective was to shut down international civilian air travel into and out of Lebanon.

It was the first time since Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon and occupation of Beirut that the airport was hit by Israel.

The attacks caused panic in Beirut, and many people stayed home from work. Long lines formed at gas stations and supermarkets were packed with emergency shoppers.

The violence pushed crude oil prices to a new intraday record of $75.88 US a barrel.

Meanwhile, Israeli attacks in southern Lebanon overnight killed 26 civilians and wounded dozens more, Lebanese security officials told AP.


From CTV News and Associated Press


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 13 July 2006 11:46 AM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
CNN made an unconfirmed report that Hezbollah is seeking to transfer the captured Israeli soldiers to Iran. If true, the whole region is going to blow up.

Hezbollah does answer mostly to Iran. Do you think Iran's leadership might be trying to provoke a (suicidal) attack on Iran by the US and/or Israel?

Simply put - a US attack on Iran could very easily create a world war. Yet the US is sabre rattling about that very thing. If they do, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt will all go up in flames, possibly being taken over by radicals. Iraq will disintegrate (even more), Afghanistan will become even more of a nightmare than it is.

It would be more than even the US and Israeli military could handle for long, and then I have no idea what might happen.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 13 July 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
Wow!!! What a cunning and incredibly clever plan. All Hezees need to do is capture ALL the Israeli soldiers and they win! But i think they better rachet up the numbers pretty quick

From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 13 July 2006 03:37 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post
Iran has nothing to do with this.

Israel and the US are hoping that they can use this as an excuse to go into Iran and take out their nuclear capability.

Iran has no interest in taking the hostages. It's a ridiculously transparent and fictitious story.


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500_Apples
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posted 13 July 2006 03:46 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pearson can you justify that?
From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 13 July 2006 04:27 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
Wow!!! What a cunning and incredibly clever plan. All Hezees need to do is capture ALL the Israeli soldiers and they win! But i think they better rachet up the numbers pretty quick

I don't see what the benefit for Iran or Hezbollah would be in any of this. But I couldn't (and don't)see any rational reason for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, which has left me doubting the rationality of decision makers in all parts of the world.

Not to say that I don't see plenty of irrational, stupid or simplistic justifications for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I don't believe that Hamas, or Israel (Olmert anyways), or Hezbollah are acting rationally in this conflict. That's much scarier than a simple rationalized conflict over a resource. They all seem to have gone far beyond reason, and into much less pacific territory.

I feel the same way about Iran and the US. Now, Hezbollah is largely a puppet of Iran, and Israel has a pretty unique relationship with the US. I have no idea if that confluence of issues is affecting this conflict, but I have trouble imagining that they don't.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 13 July 2006 04:29 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even the saudis are blaming hezbollah:

quote:
Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia blamed “elements” inside Lebanon for the violence with Israel, in unusually frank language directed at Hizbullah and its Iranian backers.

“A distinction must be made between legitimate resistance and uncalculated adventures undertaken by elements inside (Lebanon) and those behind them without recourse to the legal authorities and consulting and coordinating with Arab nations,” a statement published on the official news agency SPA said.

“These elements should bear the responsibility for their irresponsible actions and they alone should end the crisis they have created.”


[URL=http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275355,00.html ]link[/URL]


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
eau
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posted 13 July 2006 05:13 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
The Saudis are Sunni, the Iranians are Shia. I think thats why Saudi is putting in its two cents worth.
From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 13 July 2006 11:06 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or their puppetmasters have asked for a favour.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 14 July 2006 01:59 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hezbollah declares open war (from yahoo)

quote:
"You want an open war, we will go to the open war," he said, according to reports. "We are ready for it. War, war on every level."

CNN take on it
And CBC

Heh, theres the MSM take on it... Time to check some blogs and other sites ^^

[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
uh clem
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posted 14 July 2006 02:37 PM      Profile for uh clem   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The best analysis I've seen thus far is on The Agonist which analyzes the current horrors, based largely on Stratfor's ("The shadow CIA") publications. I found it very insightful stuff...check it out!
quote:
...the Neocons desperately want a war with Iran. They can't out and out declare one, but they can try and arrange one. They have very close ties to Olmert's faction in Israel. It is not unlikely that they are working together with Olmert on this. Even granting that soldiers being captured is every parent's worst nightmare, it is hard not to see the Israeli response as disproportionate to suspect it was pre-planned - that the attacks were used to justify what Tel Aviv wanted to do anyway.

If Iran does react with acts of war to this - the Neocons get their war. If Iran doesn't, its two strongest regional allies - Hezbollah and Syria, are badly damaged and Iran is seen to have done nothing to protect its allies. If you're a Neocon, that's pretty much win/win.


[ 14 July 2006: Message edited by: uh clem ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 14 July 2006 03:02 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very well done analysis, thnx for the link Clem.


Too be perfectly honest, I'd prefer if everything right now is caused by neo-cons pushing this... If the reverse was true and this was Hezbollah causing the aggression, that would lead me to beleive that Iran was pushing it. And if Iran was pushing it, nuclear concerns quickly come to me.

I still have problems placing what Israel instends with this push. The most they are doing is setting themselves to be in a similar occupation position as America in Iraq (neither nation will be able to effectively combat guerrilla warfare... The article points this out nicely). Any eventual withdrawl simply leaves a destroyed nation with a people that now hate you more than ever... A never ending supply of recruits to continue fighting with Israel.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 July 2006 03:12 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So why is Lebanon attacking Israel when Israel currently does not occupy one square inch of Lebanese territory?

Israel unilaterally withdrew from southern Lebanon six years and now all the worst predictions are coming true as Hezbolla simply uses that territory as a base from which to launch missiles.

Now most Israelis will simply conclude that it was a mistake to have withdrawn from southern Lebanon.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 July 2006 03:20 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now most Israelis will simply conclude that it was a mistake to have withdrawn from southern Lebanon.

Well, yes, because you wouldn't want them concluding that all that ethnic cleansing that drove Palestinian refugees into south Lebanon was a mistake, would you? And just as a bonus for Israeli war lords there is all that water in south Lebanon ...

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 14 July 2006 04:48 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
Ah yes, the water wars. Coming to a North America near you in the very soon future.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 July 2006 06:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Expanding the reach of its airstrikes, Israel on Saturday hit coastal radar installations in northern Lebanon that it said were targeting its warships and early Sunday bombed the southern suburbs of Beirut.

Early Sunday, Israeli warplanes bombed the Beirut suburbs for hours.

Israel also struck roads in Lebanon’s north and east on Saturday, with one attack killing at least 16 civilians, most of them children. At the same time, Hezbollah forces continued their rocket barrage into northern Israel, striking the resort city of Tiberias for the first time.

The widening conflict stirred a meeting of world leaders in Russia, where President Bush called on Syria to use its influence with Hezbollah to end the fighting. At an emergency meeting of Arab foreign ministers in Cairo, the Arab League secretary general, Amr Moussa, said the participants “all decided that the peace process has failed,” and that they would turn to the United Nations Security Council for help.

Israel carried out dozens of airstrikes on Saturday, hitting Jounieh, Tripoli and other northern ports.


New York Times


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 16 July 2006 07:37 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel's war of choice:

quote:

Regrettably, the Israel Defense Forces once again looks like the neighborhood bully. A soldier was abducted in Gaza? All of Gaza will pay. Eight soldiers are killed and two abducted to Lebanon? All of Lebanon will pay. One and only one language is spoken by Israel, the language of force.

The war that the IDF has now declared on Lebanon and before it on Gaza, will never be considered another "war of no choice." Let's save that debate from the historians. This is unequivocally a war of choice.

. . . .

In Gaza, a soldier is abducted from the army of a state that frequently abducts civilians from their homes and locks them up for years with or without a trial - but only we're allowed to do that. And only we're allowed to bomb civilian population centers.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738739.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 16 July 2006 08:11 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Noam Chomsky was recently interviewed by Amy Goodman of Democracy Now. The interview can be found at ZNet. Chomsky outlines the sequence of events as he understands them. Here's a summary:

1a. "What's happening in Gaza ... begins with the Hamas election, back at the end of January. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe."

1b. "At the same time, it's partly in Gaza ... but even more extreme in the West Bank ...a formalization of the program of annexing the valuable lands, most of the resources, including water, of the West Bank and cantonizing the rest and imprisoning it ..." [Many would call this the Bantustanization of Palestinian lands - N.Beltov]

2. "Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don't know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate."

3. "The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That's Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; the first abduction is not."

4. "Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don't have to repeat. It's reported on adequately."

5. "The next stage was Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers, they say on the border. Their official reason for this is that they are aiming for prisoner release."

Chomsky then quotes from The Financial Times: "The timing and scale of its attack suggest it was partly intended to reduce the pressure on Palestinians by forcing Israel to fight on two fronts simultaneously." Chomsky continues: "David Hirst, who knows this area well, describes it, I think this morning, as a display of solidarity with suffering people, the clinching impulse."

In summary, then, Chomsky poses a question for the listener to consider.

quote:
As always, things have precedents, and you have to decide which was the inciting event. In my view, the inciting event in the present case, events, are those that I mentioned -- the constant intense repression; plenty of abductions; plenty of atrocities in Gaza; the steady takeover of the West Bank, which, in effect, if it continues, is just the murder of a nation, the end of Palestine; the abduction on June 24 of the two Gaza civilians; and then the reaction to the abduction of Corporal Shalit. And there's a difference, incidentally, between abduction of civilians and abduction of soldiers. Even international humanitarian law makes that distinction.

The only weakness here is that Chomsky doesn't, in my view, put enough emphasis on Israel's barbaric unmeasured response to the abduction of the soldiers, etc.. Get into an argument exclusively about precedents and you're likely to find yourself arguing about Roman law and such things from several millenia ago as a justification for current Israeli bombing campaigns.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 16 July 2006 08:13 AM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
July 14, 2006

Hon. Peter MacKay
Minister of Foreign Affairs
Lester B. Pearson Bldg., A-10
125 Sussex Dr.
Ottawa, ON K1A 0G2

Dear Minister,

I write to express outrage at your government’s response to the destruction levelled by Israel on the innocent civilians in Gaza and Lebanon.

The world has rightly condemned the killings and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, however Israel’s response has been illegal, brutal and disproportionate.

It is more apparent than ever that your government’s desire to appease George Bush is so all-consuming, that you are prepared to turn a blind eye to the massive destruction in Gaza and in Lebanon, going so far as to deem these Israeli government assaults as ‘measured’.

Even George Bush has been compelled to bow to international pressure and caution Israel to “limit as much as possible so-called collateral damage not only to facilities but also to human lives.”

Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah must all assume responsibility for their actions. However, it is impossible to ignore Israel’s disproportionate response:

Bombing of the Palestinian Interior Ministry and other government offices:
Arrest of duly elected Palestinian parliamentarians;
Bombings of Palestinian infrastructure including a power station that was the sole generator of electricity and running water for hundreds of thousands of Gazans;
Destruction of the Lebanese airport;
Air and sea blockade of Lebanon preventing Lebanese as well as Canadian citizens, including many of my constituents, from returning to or leaving Lebanon; and
Killing of scores of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians, including children.
Canadians expect their government to reflect our strongly held values of fairness, and justice and to uphold our obligations to international law. They also expect their government to defend and protect their citizens overseas. Your inability to reach out to the families in Canada whose relatives are trapped in Lebanon, or to put in place any evacuation plan to bring those citizens home, is irresponsible and unacceptable.

I urge you to set in motion an immediate plan to bring Canadian citizens home, to call on Israel to halt its assault on Lebanon and to negotiate in good faith a resolution to this latest crisis which has already cost too many innocent lives.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY

Alexa McDonough, MP Halifax
NDP Foreign Affairs and International Development Critic


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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posted 16 July 2006 08:28 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle my "GO HEZBOLLAH" quip was a poor attepmt at humour, hence the face.
From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 16 July 2006 08:30 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would be nice to see the support of the entire NDP caucus [with all of their signatures] but I suppose this is a good start. I hope this will help the NDP distance itself from some of the many policies of the Liberals and Conservatives that are virtually indistinguishable.

What about the BQ? Has their Foreign Affairs critic penned anything similar? How can the trickle become a flood? There's CUPE Ontario and the United Church in Toronto showing leadership here. More must follow.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
EmmaG
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posted 16 July 2006 08:42 AM      Profile for EmmaG        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, Go Hezbollah...

quote:
Hezbollah's political rhetoric has centred on calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Its definition of Israeli occupation has also encompassed the idea that the whole of Palestine is occupied Muslim land and it has argued that Israel has no right to exist.


Hezbollah's spiritual head Sheikh Fadlallah is close to Iran

The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money.

In its early days, Hezbollah was close to a contingent of some 2000 Iranian Revolutionary guards, based in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, which had been sent to Lebanon in 1982 to aid the resistance against Israel.

As Hezbollah escalated its guerrilla attacks on Israeli targets in southern Lebanon, its military aid from Iran increased.

The movement also adopted the tactic of taking Western hostages, through a number of freelance hostage taking cells: The Revolutionary Justice Organisation and the Organisation of the Oppressed Earth, which seized Terry Waite.

For many years, Hezbollah was synonymous with terror, suicide bombings and kidnappings.



Go Hezbollah's leader:

quote:
To pick out a single example of the kind of genocidal thinking engaged in by Israel's enemies, here is Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the general secretary of Hezbollah, speaking three years ago: ''If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.''

Yes, "Go Hezbollah" was a very bad joke, which should not have appeared on a progressive forum.

[ 16 July 2006: Message edited by: EmmaG ]


From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 16 July 2006 09:00 AM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The following Editorials are excerpted from the Christian Action for Israel web page: http://christianactionforisrael.org/index.html

The ultimate threat, though, isn't Hezbollah or Hamas but Iran. And as Iran draws closer to nuclear capability — which the Israeli intelligence community believes could happen this year — an Israeli-Iranian showdown becomes increasingly likely. According to a very senior military source with whom I've spoken, Israel is still hoping that an international effort will stop a nuclear Iran; if that fails, then Israel is hoping for an American attack. But if the Bush administration is too weakened to take on Iran, then, as a last resort, Israel will have to act unilaterally. And, added the source, Israel has the operational capability to do so. - By Yossi Klein Halevi, JewishWorldReview.com

What does Israel need to do now? It needs to do what I have been advocating from the beginning – defeat the bad guys, destroy them, kill them all.
Nothing short of this response will do anything more than buy time until the next barbaric assault on Jewish civilians by Hezbollah, which, I understand, translates in Farsi to "Hitlers in headscarves." As I've said before, it's time for Israel to make humus out of Hamas. -- Joseph Farah, Between the Lines


At a time like this, we would like to be in a position to thank free nations, which we might expect would naturally come to the side of a country under unprovoked attack from some of the most vicious terrorist organizations in the world. Unfortunately, the leader of only one nation, the United States, President George Bush, has been unequivocal in his support for Israel's position, and even his Secretary of State, Condoleeza Rice, has pointedly called for Israeli "restraint." -- Jerusalem Post

As Israel continues to engage in military operations against Hezbollah in the hopes of retrieving its captive soldiers, it is important for U.S. observers and policymakers to keep in mind that the danger posed by Hezbollah is not merely an outgrowth of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but is the result of a calculated design by a ruthless terrorist organization that has killed Americans in the past and continues to support and assist those organizations that seek to kill Americans today. – Dan Darling, The Weekly Standard

Israel must strike truly devastating blows to those whose aim is to murder its people and destroy its very microscopic existence. To Hell with so-called "proportion." Such wisdom has indeed only perpetuated this conflict.

If truth be told, despite the protestations of their many sycophants, Arabs have not yet paid their due for their repeated barbarism. Payment is long overdue. Or is Israel to sit back and simply wait until scores more of its people are victimized? I think not.

And, aside from finally dealing appropriately with the Arabs, Israel must also get itself leaders with the backbone to deal effectively with the likes of the hypocritical bigmouths in the European Union and elsewhere. -- Arutz Sheva, Israel National News


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 July 2006 09:25 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Hezbaollah was actually trying to "defend" Lebanon, why don't they simply release the two soldiers and then all this violence can end instantly. I guess its more important to Hezbollah to obey their masters in Tehran and sore some cheap political points in the Muslim world then to do what they have to do to stop the confliuct.

Why don't they just apologize, release the soldiers, go back to Iran, demilitarize all of southern Lebanon and then all will be forgiven.

[ 16 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 16 July 2006 09:27 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excellent letter from Alexa McDonough to Peter MacKay, although I can't find a link on ndp.ca for some reason:

quote:
I write to express outrage at your government’s response to the destruction levelled by Israel on the innocent civilians in Gaza and Lebanon.

The world has rightly condemned the killings and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, however Israel’s response has been illegal, brutal and disproportionate.

It is more apparent than ever that your government’s desire to appease George Bush is so all-consuming, that you are prepared to turn a blind eye to the massive destruction in Gaza and in Lebanon, going so far as to deem these Israeli government assaults as ‘measured’.

Even George Bush has been compelled to bow to international pressure and caution Israel to “limit as much as possible so-called collateral damage not only to facilities but also to human lives.”[...]

I urge you to set in motion an immediate plan to bring Canadian citizens home, to call on Israel to halt its assault on Lebanon and to negotiate in good faith a resolution to this latest crisis which has already cost too many innocent lives.


Bravo, Alexa. I sincerely hope the NDP gives this letter some prominence.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 July 2006 10:07 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pat Martin will probably have a fit if they do.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 16 July 2006 10:17 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If Hezbaollah was actually trying to "defend" Lebanon, why don't they simply release the two soldiers and then all this violence can end instantly. I guess its more important to Hezbollah to obey their masters in Tehran and sore some cheap political points in the Muslim world then to do what they have to do to stop the confliuct.

Why don't they just apologize, release the soldiers, go back to Iran, demilitarize all of southern Lebanon and then all will be forgiven.

[ 16 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


Why doesn't Israel apologize for its occupation and colonization policies for the last 40 years, dismantle the illegal settlements, release all its political prisoners and demilitarize.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 16 July 2006 11:17 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Pat Martin will probably have a fit if they do.

Hon. Jack Layton M.P.
300 - 279 Laurier West
Ottawa, Ontario K1P 5J9

Dear Jack:

Please send Pat and Judy on a peace-making mission to the Middle East to mediate a solution between the warring parties.

I strongly recommend shuttle diplomacy between Beirut, Haifa, and Gaza City.

Sincerely,
unionist


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 16 July 2006 11:24 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is worth remembering that Osama Bin Laden first thought of blowing up the World Trade Centre
when he saw Israel blowing up "the towers in Lebanon."

quote:
And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.


bin laden


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 16 July 2006 11:39 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Bravo, Alexa. I sincerely hope the NDP gives this letter some prominence.
Bravo, indeed.

From the NDP website:

quote:
[quoting McDonough July 12] “It’s clear that Israel’s ongoing military actions in Gaza are causing more civilian deaths, increasing the hardships already being experienced by Palestinians, and leading to an ever expanding conflict in the region. Tragically, since the beginning of this latest offensive, sixty-five Palestinian civilians have perished, including most recently, seven children in one family.

“The death of several Israeli soldiers and capture of two more in cross-border raids by Hezbollah in Lebanon are indicative of the dangerously expanding crisis. Rolling tanks into Gaza while ignoring UN aid agencies’ appeals to ease the flow of humanitarian assistance won’t lead to improved security for Israeli or Palestinian civilians. These actions clearly inflame already heightened tensions, and lead to further retribution from both sides.

“The Harper government’s silence for almost two weeks is shameful,” said McDonough. “In his meeting with US President George Bush, Mr. Harper chose to discuss only the North Korean missile issue, ignoring the Israeli offensive in Gaza.”

“How far will Peter Mackay and Stephen Harper capitulate to George Bush on foreign policy matters?” said McDonough.


It's now July 16 and none of the MSM (or any other online media I can find) have picked up either the July 12 statement or the July 14 letter to Peter MacKay.

[ 16 July 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ryaninfo
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posted 16 July 2006 04:13 PM      Profile for Ryaninfo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This Thread has been closed, referring people to this one. The thread is about a different perpective of the Lebenon/Hezbolla issue, particularly a video featured by COA News titled Hezbollah: Lebanese Defenders.

Just wanted to let everyone know.

[ 16 July 2006: Message edited by: Ryaninfo ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 July 2006 03:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
whose being kidnapped?

quote:
This description, you'll be surprised to know, has nothing to do with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It is the story of an arrest I carried out as an IDF soldier, in the Nablus casbah, about 10 years ago.

The "soldier" was a 17-year-old boy, and we kidnapped him because he knew "someone" who had done "something." We brought him tied up, with a burlap sac over his head, to a Shin Bet interrogation center known as "Scream Hill" (at the time we thought it was funny). There, the prisoner was beaten, violently shaken and sleep deprived for weeks or months. Who knows.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 17 July 2006 06:29 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on who's being kidnapped - from the Chomsky interview that I quoted in this thread:

quote:
2. "Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don't know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate."

3. "The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That's Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; the first abduction is not."


As Chomsky pointed out, there is, as well, a very strong difference in international humanitiarian law between the "kidnapping" of soldiers, especially those involved in a criminal occupation, and the "kidnapping" of civilians.

What is the name of the Palestinian doctor and his brother who were abducted by Israel on June 24? Why don't these victims of Israel get the same attention as Corporal Shalit by the capitalist media? Does their abduction justify the collective punishment of Israeli civilians?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
greenie
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posted 17 July 2006 07:08 AM      Profile for greenie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli bombs kill 7 Canadians in Lebanon.

It will be interesting to see what Harper's response to the killing of 7 Canadian citizens is especially knowing what he considers a measured response to the kidnapping of two soldiers.


From: GTA | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 17 July 2006 07:35 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
greenie: It will be interesting to see what Harper's response to the killing of 7 Canadian citizens ...

My prediction: Harper will explain that there is a further need for a steep increase in military spending to purchase "heavy lift" and other aircraft to transport Lebanese Canadians and others. As a result, Harper will say that there will have to be steep cuts in Health, Education, settlement of land claims, transfer payments, and so on. As the camera turns off, Harper will blunder and all Canadians will hear his "off the record" neocon laughter.


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cdnviking
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posted 17 July 2006 07:45 AM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
Look who's been kidnapped!

quote:
It's the wee hours of the morning, still dark outside. A guerilla force comes out of nowhere to kidnap a soldier. After hours of careful movement, the force reaches its target, and the ambush is on! In seconds, the soldier finds himself looking down the barrel of a rifle.

A smash in the face with the butt of the gun and the soldier falls to the ground, bleeding. The kidnappers pick him up, quickly tie his hands and blindfold him, and disappear into the night.

This might be the end of the kidnapping, but the nightmare has just begun. The soldier's mother collapses, his father prays. His commanding officers promise to do everything they can to get him back, his comrades swear revenge. An entire nation is up-in-arms, writing in pain and worry.

Nobody knows how the soldier is: Is he hurt? Do his captors give him even a minimum of human decency, or are they torturing him to death by trampling his honor? The worst sort of suffering is not knowing. Will he come home? And if so, when? And in what condition? Can anyone remain apathetic in the light of such drama?

This description, you'll be surprised to know, has nothing to do with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It is the story of an arrest I carried out as an IDF soldier, in the Nablus casbah, about 10 years ago. The "soldier" was a 17-year-old boy, and we kidnapped him because he knew "someone" who had done "something."


The full article is on Ynet

It is an interesting analogy and further proves comments I have made in other threads with respect to Israel having KIDNAPPED hundreds of people in the past decades.

The outrage against the Israeli soldier being kidnapped surely doesn't seem to apply to anyone else who ISN'T JEWISH in Israel.


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 17 July 2006 07:46 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Harper will remain in lockstep to George Bush on the question of Israel, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria, and Iran. Harper sounds like an idiot by endlessly repeating to news cameras that "Israel has a right to defend itself". It was probably okay the first time, Stevie, but it's getting old.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
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posted 17 July 2006 08:03 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Harper sounds like an idiot by endlessly repeating to news cameras that "Israel has a right to defend itself". It was probably okay the first time,

Doesn't defending oneself imply that somebody else attacked?

Who Started?__Gideon Levy writing in Haaretz


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
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posted 17 July 2006 08:09 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel's real motives according to Gwynn Dyer
From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 17 July 2006 02:16 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
The impunity with which Israel acts is only matched by the volume of justification many go out of their ways to provide for it.

First, we have a book review by an obviously pro-Zionist author in the mouthpiece of the American empire, as quoted by EmmaG. The reviewer quotes the chairperson of Hizbollah, Hassan Nasrallah as saying:
"''If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

The author, Ms.Lappin, doesn't bother to provide any source for the dubious quote she presented. Has anyone in the world ever heard such a thing uttered by Nasrallah? It would have made headlines. But only Ms. Lappin seems to have heard it, yet, never sources it. After all, this is the NYT. The same Ms. Lappin mentions early on in the sentence:
"To pick out a single example of the kind of genocidal thinking engaged in by Israel's enemies"

Since some of is not put before Israel's enemies, it is obvious that to Ms. Lappin, all of Israel's enemies are genocidal.

But I digress.

Going back to the crux of this thread.

Re: "Self Defense"

Is violating the airspace of another sovereign country, and having military planes prance around on regular basis an act of war?

Israeli jets violate regularly Lebanese airspace.

Is killing civilians in another sovereign country an act of war?

In February, the Israeli army shot dead a teenage Lebanese shepherd INSIDE Lebanese territory. This story hardly made it to the media outlets, not even BBC.

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files_156/lebanon_294/incidents_3269/violence-on-the-border-between-lebanon-and-israel-february-1.-2006_3835.html

So is Lebanese entitled to defend itself against an enemy army that shoots teenagers on Lebanese soil?

Is operating spyrings in another sovereign country, with an agenda to assassinate adversaries an act of war?

Last month, an Israeli spyring was uncovered in Lebanon. It confessed to denoting bombs that killed 2 members of Islamic Jihad, in addition to a failed attempt on a Hizbollah memeber a while ago, in addition to the successful assassination of a Hizoballah operative in South Beirut a few years ago, in addition to the successful assassination of Jihad Jibril, a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2227831,00.html

Is leaving a legacy, from a savage occupation of another sovereign country, of thousands of landmines, and refusing to submit to the Lebanese state maps of the location of these mines an act of war?

Israeli mines still claim at best limbs and at worst lives of Lebanese civilians in South Lebanon.

Is keeping three nationals of another sovereign state in jail an act of war?

Israel keeps Lebanese detainess in Israeli jails. Some of these detainees have committed acts of murders against civilians, but by this logic, scores of Israeli soldiers are responsible for killing soooooo many Lebanese civilians. Would the world accept that these soldiers be tried and jailed in Lebanese prisons, if the same logic applies?

It seems the justifictions passionately provided for Israel can apply to Hizbollah: Israel has committed dozens of acts of war in Lebanon, after it withdrew in 2000. Hizbollah has the right to defend Lebanon and Lebanese nationals by seizing SOLDIERS of the country that perpetrated these acts of war. Hizbollah states that it seized the soldiers to swap them with Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails. If Israel is permitted to do what it does, then Hizbollah has done nothing wrong. If Hizbllah is to be condemened, can we hear commensurate condemnations for similiar, and sometimes graver, acts by Israel?


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 17 July 2006 04:57 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This from the (Minneapolis) StarTribune, one of the more liberal (or, in Canadian parlance, "progressive") newspapers in the US.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
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posted 17 July 2006 08:11 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's a case to be made for simply letting Israel slug it out with the Lebanese militia Hezbollah for another day or two.

Another day or two of what can only be defined as war crimes?

Even the US Supreme Court ruled the Geneva Conventions and the US War Crimes Act still apply.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 17 July 2006 09:22 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by VanLuke:

Another day or two of what can only be defined as war crimes?

Even the US Supreme Court ruled the Geneva Conventions and the US War Crimes Act still apply.


Yeah, I was a little more than surprised to see that comment, too. Truth be told, though, even if the U.N. could operate at lightning speed (which it can't), it wouldn't be able to do anything for a few days anyway. I don't see Israel stopping until either (1) U.N. peacekeeping troops arrive or (2) Hezbollah waves a white flag.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 July 2006 04:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long thread. I'll figure out which one of the 14 new ones would be best to continue this discussion.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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