It's the youtube video that Frustratred Mess posted earlier. Please, no one attack me for posting content that you can't view if you're on dial-up.

In the video, a palestinian boy is blindfolded, placed face down on the ground, and then shot. FM asked who is the terroist? Clearly the Israeli soldiers are the terrorists. They are engaged in state terrorism against the palestinian people. Because they are in Palestinian territory, the Israeli soldiers are in violation of international law. International law also gives the Palestinians the right to defend themselves against invading occupiers, such as the Israeli soldiers.

[ 20 July 2008: Message edited by: Left Turn ]

[ 20 July 2008: Message edited by: Left Turn ]

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This video is a sad and pertinent tale of power hungry people who discriminate and kill based upon ethnicity.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I know...it's so inexcusable when terrorists kill people just for being Jewish.

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Ethnic hatred is more than skin deep and far uglier than most human evils. It is a wonder it is still tolerated on this board when the targets are Palestinian and the oppressors Israeli.

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I know...it's so inexcusable when terrorists kill people just for being Jewish.

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Originally posted by jrose:
Thanks, Left Turn. Truly horrifying.

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In the interest of factuality:

1. The "kid" is 27
2. He was shot in the toe, treated by a medic, and released

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
That's all you have to say, Madam Temporary Moderator?

Not a word about the hateful posts of Stockholm and Rational Thought?

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July 21, 2008 at 10:43 AM EDT

JERUSALEM — A video released by an Israeli human-rights group has sparked a military investigation into the abuse of a Palestinian protester by an Israeli soldier.

The video released by B'Tselem on the weekend shows a soldier firing a rubber-coated bullet near the foot of a West Bank man whose hands were bound and whose eyes were blindfolded.

Globe

Note the words "rubber-coated bullet". We also don't know why the soldier fired the weapon. It's a rush to judgement to automatically assume he fired deliberately and with clear intent to cause harm.

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: RationalThought ]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

Nothing to say about Israeli soldiers killing a kid?

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
It's a rush to judgement to automatically assume he fired deliberately and with clear intent to cause harm.

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
Yeah Ive watched it. The soldier is aiming his rifle at the guy's foot. He checks his scope a couple of times, then a shot rings out and the guy falls to the ground.

Did the soldier intend to fire? I don't know and neither do you. Maybe he pulled the trigger while he thought the safety was on, or maybe he really did deliberately fire. But if it was deliberate then there are many more questions, like was he ordered to fire, or did he have psychological problems. I mean, this soldier was surrounded by very senior officers, one of whom was a lieutenant-colonel. He would have known that he could never make a case of feeling threatened what with the guy being blindfolded and shackled.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Oh well then...nothing at all wrong with that. Nope. Nothing.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
By all means, let's consider every possible theory, no matter how bizarre or remote, before we "jump" to the obvious conclusion.

An Israeli lieutenant-colonel would never allow his troops to abuse a prisoner, would he?

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Ok, you're not making sense. What in your view is the 'obvious conclusion'? That the soldier fired on his own, or that he was ordered to do so by a superior officer?

In a way, I can see the setup of the LC ordering his soldier to fire. Notice how the LC who is holding the guy keeps him immobile near the police truck instead of leading into it.

I think it's likely the LC ordered the shooting as some sort of 'lesson'. Bad news for him if it's so.

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: RationalThought ]

It seems the B'tselem website is no longer showing it. Have the authorities compelled them to take it down?

It's clear in the video that the soldier holding the prisoner by his right arm is positioning the prisoner as a target for the gunman, and both he and another bystander look expectantly at the gunman before he shoots.

What kind of sicko would defend this?

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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“The commanding officer told me ‘shoot him, shoot him,’” the IDF soldier from armored Battalion 71, who was documented firing a rubber-coated bullet at a bound Palestinian in the Naalin village near the West Bank city of Ramallah, said Monday during his interrogation by the Investigating Military Police (IMP)….

The soldier was surprised at his arrest by IMP investigators, giving them his preliminary version of the event which took place near the West Bank separation fence a fortnight ago. According to the soldiers, riots erupted in which a few Palestinians hurled stones at security forces.

The soldier went on telling his investigators that at some point his commander gave him a direct order to shoot one of the Palestinians, whose arms and legs were bound….

The soldier said that he had given the same version of the events during the operational inquiry performed by the battalion, knowing the matter would be taken up by the Judea and Samaria Division Commander, but claimed he didn’t receive any notice regarding further measures taken following the incident.

The soldier futher stated that he was not reprimanded by the commander or any of the other officers present following the incident: “The commanding officer told me he was going to assume the responsibility.” – Source

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Originally posted by oldgoat:
Rational Thought you are truely jumping through hoops to find some sort of exculpatory spin here.

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And you are truely adept at deliberately ignoring points I made BEFORE the interview with the soldier, namely these:

"But if it was deliberate then there are many more questions, like was he ordered to fire. I mean, this soldier was surrounded by very senior officers, one of whom was a lieutenant-colonel. He would have known that he could never make a case of feeling threatened what with the guy being blindfolded and shackled."

Turns out he WAS ordered to fire. So what we've learned here is that 'jumping to conclusions' is wrong. It started with Stargazer falsely claiming the 'kid' was 'killed', then went on to a predictable rant against the soldier himself, ignoring any other posibilities other than some innate bloodthirstyness of the Israelis.

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If there is something "hateful" about condemning people being murdered just for being Jewish - I'd like to know what it is.

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Could you please cite an instance of someone being killed "just for being Jewish" so we might know what you are talking about?

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When terrorists attack Israel they have done very carefully targeted attacks on such targets as 20-odd senior citizens at a Passover seder or a Jewish religious school last year etc... There have also been countless hijackings by Palestinian terrorists where they have collected passports and singled out people with Jewish sounding names so they can be the first to be executed (I wonder why) I don't recall them them ever trying to bomb any mosques or churches or other places where non-Jewish Israelis tend to congregate.

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When terrorists attack Israel they have done very carefully targeted attacks on such targets as 20-odd senior citizens at a Passover seder or a Jewish religious school last year etc... There have also been countless hijackings by Palestinian terrorists where they have collected passports and singled out people with Jewish sounding names so they can be the first to be executed (I wonder why) I don't recall them them ever trying to bomb any mosques or churches or other places where non-Jewish Israelis tend to congregate.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

I'm going to keep a long tally of Stockholm's anti-Muslim and pro-Israel bias. This is oh...one of at least 300 from Stock. At least he's consistent.

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What he said was true.

'When terrorists attack Israel they have done very carefully targeted attacks on such targets as 20-odd senior citizens at a Passover seder or a Jewish religious school last year etc'

True

'There have also been countless hijackings by Palestinian terrorists where they have collected passports and singled out people with Jewish sounding names so they can be the first to be executed (I wonder why)'

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how does your example justify what was done to that young man?

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
And Palestinians are targeted by Israelis and Israeli settlers specifically because they are not Jewish.

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Holocaust ring a bell?

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Oh yeah, the Germans.

Other than providing Europeans with the guilty concience that allowed the Zionist project to become a state, what do they have to do with Palestinian resistance against a foreign invader?

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Don't forget the Palestinians are targeted by other Paolestinians specifically because they are not [insert any Palestinian group].

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*cough* Yitzhak Rabin *cough*

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Being Jewish might mean a lot to Stockholm and other apologists for Zionist atrocities against the indigenous population of Palestine,

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No, they don't seem to get tired of slumming. Every aggression against Palestinian people put forward these apologists always counter with how worse the other side is.

I wonder how Stock and his buddies would feel if for every FN person killed, we decided to knock off 100 white people. Stockholm would be up in arms over that one.

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
Turns out he WAS ordered to fire. So what we've learned here is that 'jumping to conclusions' is wrong.

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In my opinion it's even more reprehensible if he was "just following orders," as they used to say at Nuremberg.

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this is Stockholm, pretending to give a shit.

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When it was originally posted, I thought this thread might serve as a useful resource thread where other film footage of the IDF and settlers abusing the rights of Palestinians could be posted as an archive. There is plenty! I come across it routinely. Guess that idea is dead now.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Being Palestinian might mean a lot to Frustrated Mess and other apologists for Palestinian atrocities against the indigenous population of Israel, but were the Palestinians Shintoists or Catholics or Druids, the opposition to them would be the same. Their being Arabs is incidental, and not a genuine factor in the resistance to the Palestinian invasion of Israel.

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Wrong, no one considered for a second displacing any European populations for the benefit of Jewish settlement after the war. However, they were more than happy shunt Germans, Czechs and Poles around as if they were part of some massive European Rubix Cube. On the other hand, no one would have considered for a moment doing such for Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, they were shoved off the continent entirely. The fact that the Arabs are not white European Christians is an factor in their being selected for ethnic cleansing here.

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

IDF soldiers randomly laying on beatings upon Palestinian teenagers.

...and a boy, possibly 8 years old. Less?

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Rational thought? Yes Churchill was a war criminal for using the civilians of London as human shields.

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Shooting a bunch of women at a demonstration.

Edited for better version.

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
See, this is Stockholm, pretending to give a shit.

No, they don't seem to get tired of slumming. Every aggression against Palestinian people put forward these apologists always counter with how worse the other side is.

I wonder how Stock and his buddies would feel if for every FN person killed, we decided to knock off 100 white people. Stockholm would be up in arms over that one.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Good god. What a waste of a thread! Having to argue with some guy who actually tried to fob of the idea that the shooting was accidental.

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Being Palestinian might mean a lot to Frustrated Mess and other apologists for Palestinian atrocities against the indigenous population of Israel,

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but were the Palestinians Shintoists or Catholics or Druids, the opposition to them would be the same. Their being Arabs is incidental, and not a genuine factor in the resistance to the Palestinian invasion of Israel.

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The Romans were the ones who drove the Israelites out. The Palestinians were completely innocent of that one.

BTW, Stocks, if, as seems likely, Israel never elects another government with any progressive or humane values(Netanyahu is going to win which will usher in a long, if not eternal period of right-wing extremist rule)will you still support the place's existence? Even though you know such a place would have nothing whatsoever about it that you could defend?

[ 21 July 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

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Being Palestinian might mean a lot to Frustrated Mess and other apologists for Palestinian atrocities against the indigenous population of Israel, but were the Palestinians Shintoists or Catholics or Druids, the opposition to them would be the same. Their being Arabs is incidental, and not a genuine factor in the resistance to the Palestinian invasion of Israel.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
The British used to place AA guns all over London during the Blitz. Did that make London a military target?

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Originally posted by RationalThought:

Did the British place AA guns on top of occupied apartment buildings? Didn't think so.

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Originally posted by RationalThought:

Did the British place AA guns on top of occupied apartment buildings? Didn't think so.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

You are unreal. Of course they positioned light anti-aircraft weapons on rooftops. Also, everywhere else possible. This kind of desperate dissembling is embarrassing.

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Actually I am very real. Your the one who resorts to emotional outbursts when your precious worldview is challenged.

In your world, everything Israel does is evil and everything the Palestinians do is right. You're just another in a long line of people with a grudge against the Israelis, from Pharaoh to OBL.

I think this hatred of Israelis is born out of jealousy. Israel and the Jews have survivied and even prospered despite the best efforts of every tyrant, dictator, and xenophobe out there.

Yup. Plucky little Israel. I am so jealous. I want to "be a man" and stick a 13 year old boy on the front of my armoured jeap because I don't want anyone to throw stones at it and scratch the beautiful olive green paint job.

Waddya think netboy? Probably photoshopped... by those sneaky Arabs. There must be some "rational" explanation for the existance of this photo, other than that Israel is engaged in a brutal and dehumanizing and racist, not to mention illegal, occupation.

[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Waddya think netboy? Probably photoshopped... by those sneaky Arabs.

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You mean like these were photoshopped?
Who says your photos above aren't fakes as well?

[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
how [can] a Middle Eastern country with an economy the size of Denmark's afford to spend so much on military.

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Simple. They get lots of money from the USA. But wait, there's more...

The USA's national debt obligations are then purchased by China and Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds. So ultimately the Chinese and Arabs are paying for Israel's defence.

Cool huh?

[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: RationalThought ]

The facts keep intervening in your theories unfortunately.

It's a perfect compliment to you comparing me to the Pharoh, and other wild eyed rambling about OBL. Keep talking to Fidel, you have much in common. Its called willful ignorance.

[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

They have a whole web page devoted to exposing media fakery, and anti-Israelis bias in the media... this gem from the Lebanese war, for example. Not only are the Arabs so corrupt as to expose their dead to the media, but they admit that they are doing so! Now that kind of honesty about their intentions must hold some kind key to unlocking the true nature of Arab cunning deceit.

Don't they know they should lie about such things in order to be believed? That's what all honest propogandists do, right?

But there is more: The real story here is not that the IAF obliterated a childs life. No not that, the real story is that the rescue workers were so shameless as to make sure that photogrpahs were taken of the body. Now that is evil enough to justify flattening an apartment complex for sure!

Not like Israeli authorities don't do everything in their power to insure that gory pictures of dead civilians are splashed all over the world newspapers by hussling photographers down to the site of the latest attack by Palestinian militants or anything.

You can read it all here: Green Helmet admits to staging photographs

But the real gem is at the end of this piece where we discover the medias complicity in the sham. We also discover that prevarication on point is an art all unto itself, in which the brain trust at LGF excel.

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Notice also this outrageous line:

"In one photograph, taken after an Israeli airstrike hit a building in the village of Qana, Daher held a dead infant over his head. The boy’s blue pacifier was pinned to his nightshirt."

One photograph? There are dozens of them.

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Here we must force ourselves to believe that the writer means specifically "one" phtograph, and not "one" as an example of many.

Too much!

[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

I guess we'll just hafta assume that he's some kind of "independent leftist", because otherwise, we'd be attributing his views to his political party.

Face it, there IS no "Red Menace" anymore.

[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

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Frustrated Mess is a member of the Green Party. And no other. And you know it Jeff.

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Ha ha! Sure he is. He's a BIG Green supporter, he just doesn't support any of their POLICIES.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Ha ha! Sure he is. He's a BIG Green supporter, he just doesn't support any of their POLICIES.

Wasn't it Lenin who said that "I support them like a rope supports a hanged man?"

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Originally posted by RationalThought:

Simple. They get lots of money from the USA. But wait, there's more...

The USA's national debt obligations are then purchased by China and Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds. So ultimately the Chinese and Arabs are paying for Israel's defence.

Cool huh?

[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: RationalThought ]

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[ 22 July 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Israeli's break up Palestinian demo by throwing explosive teargas canisters at protestors, and then fire (rubber bullets?) at the crowd as it retreats.

[ 25 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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"Support by United States rulers is rather in the nature of the support that the rope gives to a hanged man." - Nikita Khrushchev.

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Ha ha! Sure he is. He's a BIG Green supporter, he just doesn't support any of their POLICIES.

Wasn't it Lenin who said that "I support them like a rope supports a hanged man?"

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I had missed this. And as usual, Mr. House is all bluster and little knowledge. I support many of the Green policies. I support many NDP policies.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
[QB]

Ha ha! Sure he is. He's a BIG Green supporter, he just doesn't support any of their POLICIES.
[QB]

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How do you know he doesn't support any of their policies? FM often defends those policies on these very boards.

Why can't you accept the fact, Jeff, that there IS no such thing as a "Communist threat" anymore?

Why can't you accept that it's actually possible for you to be WRONG about someone's political affiliation?

IDF soldier casually snipes Palestininas, while not under fire. Reports says a 13 year old was shot in the incident.

[ 25 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by RationalThought:

The 27-year old man wasn't killed. He was shot in the toe with a rubber bullet. He was treated and released.

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Israeli soldier shooting and killing a child just sells better.

But yeah, shooting someone in the gut is a whole lot better than killing him. He might die, but we can not confirm it.

Do you feel better now?

Yeah, and you should really look at the one where they shoot Lymor Goldstein in the head with a rubber bullet, at 5M range.

[ 25 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:

But yeah, shooting someone in the gut is a whole lot better than killing him. He might die, but we can not confirm it.

Do you feel better now?

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Yeah, and you should really look at the one where they shoot Lymor Goldstein in the head with a rubber bullet, at 5M range.

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It's too bad you won't look at that one where the guy gets shot in the gut. Here is how it goes. This guy is getting busted for something, and there is no doubt about that. They are trying to restrain him, but he get away. He has no weapon, nor does he do anything to actually harm to soldiers, he just struggles till he is free. Then he begins walking through the alley away from the soldiers. He is not running, just walking, and they follow. He continues to walk. They continue to follow at about 10 paces distance. Then there is a warning shot. He continues to walk. Then they shoot him twice, and he falls to the ground gut shot, growning.

Feeling good now?

Do you think that officers of the law should shoot unarmed suspects, just because they are walking away? You can think of no other way they could be apprehended? Perhaps these IDF guys were just to lazy to bother with actually apprehending and restraining the suspect. That they let him go is suspicious in itself.

Three big soldiers can't hold down this one guy? You kidding me? It even looks a little like they were playing a game where they could claim that he was shot while trying to escape, after letting him go. The suspect seems to think this. He walks. He doesn't run. He doesn't seem to want to encourage the ideas that he is fleeing, but rather that he is calmly going about his business. They could easily catch up to him, and try an capture him, but they don't.

The warning shot. Was it really a warning shot, or a shot intended to make the guy bolt? Hard to tell, really. Anway, whatever is going on, they basicly just shoot this unarmed guy.

In Israel they call this "purity of arms", or something like that. That is what I have heard. Have you heard this? Is it true?

[ 25 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:

...and a boy, possibly 8 years old. Less?

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Note to moderators: I have been very careful in this discussion to adhere to the board's policies and yet I find myself accused of being an "apologist for Palestinian atrocities" by a person who supports a racist regime. Why is that tolerated?

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Norman Finkelstein spoke about this narrative of "purity of arms" in a video of his I saw recently.

BTW, Finkelstein is brilliant. Now, let's see. Ah yes. Here it is: The Coming Breakup of American Zionism

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I don't know. Finklestein says that the Zionist lobby is overwhelmingly Jewish. I'm uncomfortable with this assertion because it seems to buy into the myth that a small number of very powerful and rich Jews steer the American ship of state.
The second problem I have with the talk he gave is that he insists that American political culture is actually quite vibrant. I can accept his assertion that Israeli political culture is stagnant, but is the American any different?

[ 26 July 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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I'm uncomfortable with this assertion because it seems to buy into the myth that a small number of very powerful and rich Jews steer the American ship of state.

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(edited because I can't make two #@*& simple declaritave statements without a typo. )

[ 27 July 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

He notes that since the 1967 War, and the military defeat of local Arab countries in that war, a sea change has taken place among American Jews. By defeating the enemies of their friend (Arab Nationalism being an undifferentiated enemy of the USA, without distinction), instead of the divided loyalty scenario characterizing American Jewish supporters of Israel, NOW, after 1967, to be a loud supporter of Israel can now be marketed as Super-US Nationalism. In the first part of the video Finklestein makes the observation that support for Israel among American Jews took a precipitous jump upwards after 1967 (for the reason that I've outlined). So a big change in support is something worth identifying.