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Author Topic: English Minority In Quebec
Brutus
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posted 11 July 2004 08:47 AM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
DELETED!!!!!!!!

[ 19 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 11 July 2004 09:23 AM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post

[ 11 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 11 July 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That brief from the Townshippers Assocaition is interesting. It rings true for me: my family comes from that community, the English-speaking people of the Eastern Townships who go back in the province of Quebec just as far as the French-speaking majority. Nous sommes Québécois de souche aussi, as one of my cousins sometimes says.

But i think it's also vital to understand that there is not a single undifferentiated "English minority in Quebec." The English-speaking Townshippers have their own situation. As the brief points out, they are on average poorer than their French-speaking neighbours. In Montreal, the reverse is true. And the case they highlight, the loss of Sherbrooke's English hospital and then the removal of bilingual signage from Sherbrooke hospitals, is definitely a very bad thing that needs to be redressed. (On the other hand, it is quite easy to get medical service in English even in a French-speaking town like Magog. Even the tough situation of many longtime anglophone residents of the Eastern Townships is a great deal better than struggling francophone communities in, say, Saskatchewan.)

This is from the brief:

quote:
We are participating in the greater community. The English minority has shown a will to work together with the French majority, to strengthen our region's position in the context of the rest of Quebec and the world, and to preserve the quality of life we all so value.

This, and not the angryphone whining, is a useful and constructive attitude to be taking. The problems facing Townshippers are much like the problems facing other minorities outside the big cities, but the problems are being tackled with a great will to improve things by working together with the community's neighbours and an awareness that Quebec is a French-speaking province and this will not change. So the call for cheap FSL courses to help people gain expertise in the majority language is a good one. The brief talks about Townshippers Days and bilingualism and the need for a spirit of goodwill on both sides -- which is the Estrie way historically. Not too long after the Bloc swept the Townships (all but one riding), i was at Canada Day festiviites in Hatley Township, a local institution for many years now. There wasn't a trace of animosities between the two language communities represented there. The attitude in solving problems is one of working together locally, and that might be a good attitude for some others to adapt, rather than the mutual howls of persecution.

This, too, from the brief:

quote:
The language issue has become one of control and coercion rather than one of opportunity.

This is a fair complaint. Their solution is more decision-making be given to local areas. Perhaps something along the lines of Ontario's French-language services legislation, mandating service in French in areas where numbers permit, might be useful. The language legislation is a bit draconian in the Townships, where it has tried, for instance, to wipe out historical place names. Did Knowlton really need to be renamed Lac-Brome? Luckily local resistance, mostly by the French-speaking municipal majority, was able to prevent a government move to rename North Hatley as Hatley-Nord.

quote:
Where language is concerned, one cannot divorce the question of quality from the question of survival. Without creative and skilful expression, a language has lost its soul, and we all may as well resign ourselves to a shared future of Franglais or Frenglish or Computerese or whatever uninspired, uneducated mush will happen :-))) . A focus on survival alone could signal that the battle is already lost. Creating cultural or self-expression in words, skilfully accomplished, breathes new life into a language and engenders delight in the creator. It is this intrinsic reward that motivates Townships English speakers to keep on speaking English, while enjoying learning French.

We recommend this pro-active stance to the French-speaking minority of North America. In a difficult environment, taking responsibility and taking hold of one's own language, coupled with an attitude of openness to other languages and cultures, can lead to renewed viability and creative development.

This approach is working for us, the Eastern Townships English-speaking minority, in the context of French-speaking Quebec. If it can work for us, we believe it can work for the French-speaking minority in Canada.



From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 16 July 2004 01:24 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't you wnt to piss and moan some more in this thread Brutus? Maybe you could do it in CAPITAL LETTERS for extra effect!

It seems to me that the anglo situation in Quebec requires that more effort be spent on the promotion of bilingualism.


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lagatta
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posted 16 July 2004 03:18 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Swallow, I was pleased to see your post - and pleasantly surprised that brutus had cited the Townshippers' brief. That is a group that has long been constructive - they were always in disagreement with the angryphones who took over Alliance Québec.

Townshippers' Day is a lot of fun, by the way. That is a very pretty region.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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posted 16 July 2004 07:36 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, pity the plight of the West Mount Rhodesians... Why should they have to learn French? What was all that loss of life at the Plains of Abraham for if not to protect us from learning a dreaded Romance language?
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Stephen Gordon
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posted 16 July 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post

I thought we had successfully derailed that topic. The Eastern Townshippers are much poorer than those who live in the West Island, and they're much more likely to be bilingual.


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swallow
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posted 16 July 2004 09:23 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A good 1/3 of the people in Westmount have French as their mother tongue at any rate. Apart from a few cartoon characters like Brutus, i think the Westmount Rhodesian/grasses maudites anglaises stereotype is fading. Although i'll always cherish the memory of the cartoon of Réné Lévesque sitting in an armoured tank, cigarette dangling, saying: "À Westmount!" (That one wouldn't work with Lac-Brome, the only English-majority community outside Montreal.)
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swallow
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posted 16 July 2004 09:24 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A good 1/3 of the people in Westmount have French as their mother tongue at any rate. Apart from a few cartoon characters like Brutus, i think the Westmount Rhodesian/grasses maudites anglaises stereotype is fading. Although i'll always cherish the memory of the cartoon of Réné Lévesque sitting in an armoured tank, cigarette dangling, saying: "À Westmount!" (That one wouldn't work with Lac-Brome, the only English-majority community outside Montreal.)
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lagatta
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posted 16 July 2004 09:51 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, Lac-Brome is known more for its duck festival.

Nowadays, when, say, social housing groups hold demos up the flank of upper Westmount, the language origin of the rich folks has nothing to do with it. It is not a question of "grosses Anglaises" (nowadays fat people would tend to be poor, not rich, anyway) but of "grosses cabanes" with almost no residents.

Despite all swallow rightly says about great social and linguistic changes - the fact that there is a whole generation of "allophone" youth educated in French now is an even greater one - there are still some "angryphones" like Howard Galganov and William Johnston (or Johnson?) - but they are having a much harder time riling anyone up.
I'd like to put Galganov and Raymond Villeneuve in a jar together like the proverbial two scorpions, or a historical relic ...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 03:06 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::First of all, the short-term economic fallout would be extreme, created by the political uncertainity. I had a Uncle who REALLY suffered finacially during the last referendum.

We lose Quebec's immense Hydro-electric Power, as well as their manufacturing base, etc. Now many argue that this is merely propped up by Federal subsides (ie Bombardier), but the fact is they do significantly contribute to the Canadian economy.

Of course you gave no proof of this really happening. Econmic fall out! Your uncle lived in which part of Canada and he was affected by Quebec's referendums HOW!

Most of Quebec's hydro power is sold to where?

I would argue that tax payer money being pumped into bombardier does little to stimulate Canada's economy. Quebecs yes Canada's NO!


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 03:14 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Please do a cost-benefit analysis of the taxpayer money pumped into Bombardier versus the benefits of Bombardier to the Canadian economy (Québec is still in Canada, by the way; we all live in provinces, so anything that benefits citizens in one province has to be considered as benefitting Canadians). Please cost out the social benefits as well.

Thanks...*heart and smiley face*


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Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 03:15 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::Why should they have to learn French?

Why should the French have to learn English?

French 24% of the population of Canada.Mostly consintrated in one province. 4% French in the rest of Canada!

English 60% of the population of Canada!

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


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Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 03:17 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE: lease do a cost-benefit analysis

Your job because it's your side of the arguement!


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 03:19 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, but here's your chance to put us all in our places and shut us up (on at least this point). Isn't that irresistible?
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Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 03:28 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
Like I said that's your side of the arguement so why don't you go for it!

Come on tell us how pumping tax payers money into bombardier helps out the rest of Canada more than it does Quebec!

Gee I can hardly wait!


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 03:31 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, but here's your chance to put us all in our places and shut us up (on at least this point). Isn't that irresistible?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 03:50 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
hinderland your nothing but a troll you have no intention of contributing to the debate at all!

Why don't you just ignore the thread if you are unable or unwilling to contribute!

Now tell us how pumping tax payer money into bombardier benefits Canada more than it does Quebec!

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 03:52 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::Yeah, but here's your chance to put us all in our places and shut us up

Imposible to shut a troll like you up!

From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 04:00 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Go to hell.
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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:04 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why does the Quebec issue keep rearing its head. I side Brutus in most of these arguments but find it annoying that every fifth thread is on how evil bilingualism is.
From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 04:14 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::I side Brutus in most of these arguments but find it annoying that every fifth thread is on how evil bilingualism is.

I never said bilingualism was evil. What I did say was it is very very expensive and we should have the auditor general take a look at it to see if we are getting our 37 billion dollars moneys worth!

After 30 years still only 18% of the Canadian population consider themselves to be bilingual!

Also I brought up the point of all the money we'd save not only for bilingualism IF WE KICKED Quebec out!


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 04:16 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I've had enough of you screaming about kicking people out of the country. I'm complaining to the moderators.
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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:18 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shut up, Hinterland. You're really annoying. For once, make an argument that's half reasonable. If you cant go back to Free Dominion where all the loonies cackle.
From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 04:22 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
HINT: All the money that is pumped into Quebec and it is still a have not province.

Bombardier they tell us is one of the most successful aircraft companies in the world,hydro Quebec the same as a success story!

So with all of this goodness why are we still handing out billions of tax payers money to Quebec not to mention the fact that they also get the most in equalization payments!


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 04:23 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I beg your pardon, Zahid? This has nothing to do with you. Brutus has started several of these angry threads in the last while that do nothing but show just how much he hates Quebeckers. I don't have to pretend that I like it, I don't have pretend that this is serious debate, and I certainly don't have to shut up.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:25 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, continue to make a fool or yourself. I'll laugh at it. My point being that threatening to tell the moderators on Brutus' posts isn't related to the argument a bit. AND, FYI anything posted on this forum has everything to do with me as I'm a babbler.
From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 July 2004 04:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zahid, you have just made a mistake.

If I were you, I would apologize to Hinterland forthwith. Hinterland does not come to us from FreeDominion, as anyone who has read him for a while -- as you obviously have not -- would know.

Hinterland gave a perfectly reasonable explanation of his exasperation with these repetitive and bigoted discussions. Hinterland doesn't owe anyone. You do.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:27 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I noticed you edited your post Hinterland. Nice try! Shouldv'e quoted your line which was osmething along the lines of:

this has nothing to do with you Zahid Zaman

Very sly!!!


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Zahid, you have just made a mistake.

If I were you, I would apologize to Hinterland forthwith. Hinterland does not come to us from FreeDominion, as anyone who has read him for a while -- as you obviously have not -- would know.

Hinterland gave a perfectly reasonable explanation of his exasperation with these repetitive and bigoted discussions. Hinterland doesn't owe anyone. You do.


Sorry, no apologies coming forthwith. I'm pretty sure I've seen Hinterland post on Free Dominion and even not, the remark was meant more towards is extreme right wing thinking in most arguments. Also, exasperation or not, Hinterland does seem to have the tendency to invoke Brutus to write more on this bilingulaism issue. Enough with this stuff. If anything, I think the moerators should just bunch all of these posts under a seperate topic called bilingualism.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 July 2004 04:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zahid Zaman:
OK, continue to make a fool or yourself. I'll laugh at it. My point being that threatening to tell the moderators on Brutus' posts isn't related to the argument a bit. AND, FYI anything posted on this forum has everything to do with me as I'm a babbler.


Y'know, this is interesting, Zahid.

On another thread, you just made a post asking whether anyone ever gets banned on babble, the clear implication being that you felt that D.O.S. should be.

And yet here you are telling a long-time babbler, Hinterland, that his referral of Brutus's posts to the moderator is irrelevant or unreasonable.

How very interesting. So, Zahid: what kind of troll are you, and from where do you come?

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Hoffman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:37 PM      Profile for Jesse Hoffman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry, no apologies coming forthwith. I'm pretty sure I've seen Hinterland post on Free Dominion and even not, the remark was meant more towards is extreme right wing thinking in most arguments.

Uh, sorry if i'm reading this wrong, but it seems you are implying that Hinterland is an extreme right-winger...?

If that's the case you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


From: Peterborough, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:39 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please continue to look before calling me a troll. You will have noticed that I don't go about makin baseless remarks (which surely makes me an un-troll ). Long time babbler or not, I think when it comes to hearing opinions and voicing opinions, seniority doesn't matter at all. In elections, do you vote by how many years of experience a politician has or by their policies?

My post is completely based on me getting annoyed with Hinterland posting one liners that don't have any relevance to the topic of discussion much in the same manner as Hinterland himself is getting annoyed at Brutus insistence on making new threads on the bilingulaism issue. I respect Hinterland's opinions as long as they don't start to seem more a nusiance than arguments. Of course, I'm just a "lowly new babbler" and don't really matter in this forum of "old veterans".


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 04:40 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE:: beg your pardon, Zahid? This has nothing to do with you. Brutus has started several of these angry threads in the last while that do nothing but show just how much he hates Quebeckers.

This is a lie.

If someone questions the huge amounts of money being spent on thing like bilingualism and the huge amounts of money being pumped into Quebec firms like bombardier That labels him a Quebec hater?

UNBELIEVEABLE! How dare anyone question the tax payer money being spent on policies that seem to benefit only the minority!

HOW DARE YOU!

We are allowed to rant and rave about those other have not provinces in the maritimes yet Quebec is off limits for some of the same?

I don't hear the maritimes whinning about wanting to separate but I hear Quebec loud and clear.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 July 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zahid, you are back-tracking now, but you made several substantive charges against Hinterland there that are wrong, just plain wrong.

Hinterland has every right to become exasperated with Brutus over time, and to begin to troll the troll back. That happens to us all.

And that is one HELL of a big chip you've got on your wee shoulder there, Zahid.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
And that is one HELL of a big chip you've got on your wee shoulder there, Zahid.

What chip?


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:48 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess on hind sight, I think I was a bit quick in asking Hinterland to "shut up". So, I apologize for that part. However, I stand behind my argument of one liners with no relevance being a nuisance. Also, if you troll a troll back, there is no difference left.
From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::Hinterland has every right to become exasperated with Brutus over time, and to begin to troll the troll back. That happens to us all.

That happens to those who cannot back up their side of the debates with facts and figures.

These type forget debate and start name calling!

I on the other hand have given several sourses for my information!

Anyone who says that bilingualism isn't expensive has yet to show me that proof.

Few people here are willing to debate the Quebec issues!


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However, I stand behind my argument of one liners with no relevance being a nuisance.

Then I suggest, the next time, you simply state that.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 July 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zahid, I have to go now.

Take my advice: read around a bit before you bite anybody else.

I don't know whether Hinterland will forgive you. He might. He's an interesting sort of guy.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:51 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

Then I suggest, the next time, you simply state that.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


I have, haven't I?


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 July 2004 04:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, pookie-pie! You're there!

Have a nice evening, sweetums.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::I guess on hind sight, I think I was a bit quick in asking Hinterland to "shut up".

I don't think so it is obvious he only wants to turn this debate into a flame war that I refuse to get into.

I told him to provide some proof for his side of the debate he obviously had none so he told me to go to hell!

How typical is that of a troll!


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 July 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS: Just in case anyone was wondering, my last post was addressed to Hinterland.

(This is one of the stranger exchanges I've ever had on this board mutter mutter ...)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I'm here, Skdadl. What a day, eh?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 18 July 2004 05:07 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::I'm here, Skdadl. What a day, eh?

The trolls even have tag teams!


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brutus:
RE::I'm here, Skdadl. What a day, eh?

The trolls even have tag teams!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I'm sorry but that was just too funny to pass on.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 05:10 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
You know, Zahid, you're really moving up fast on my shit list. Skdadl and I don't "tag team" each other and I'm pretty fucking insulted by that insinuation. Why don't you just shut up for a bit?

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 18 July 2004 05:10 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a shame. The Townshippers' brief is worth a read, by the way. Maybe we should take this thread over to "out and about" and discuss villages of English - and Celtic - origins in Québec. Has anyone been to La Petite Irlande?

There are also isolated English-speaking communities in the Lower North Shore (Basse-Côte-Nord) and one of the Magdalen Islands (Îles de la Madeleine).


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
You know, Zahid, you're really moving up fast on my shit list. Skdadl and I don't "tag team" each other and I'm pretty fucking insulted by that insinuation. Why don't you just shut up for a bit?

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


Well, I take my apology back. You just asked me to shut up which you asked me to apologize on in the first place. Hinterland, about your shit list, sorry pal but I really don't care. Also, about me laughing at Brutus comment, I didn't laugh to insinuate you but more so at imagining two trolls planning an attack together. So, stop taking everything so personally. Yeah, that's right. The world doesn't revolve around you. Learn to live with it.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 05:14 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On a side note, can some moderator please close this thread down? People seem to be losing their tempers on this one.
From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
You're a very arrogant little thing there, Zahid.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
You're a very arrogant little thing there, Zahid.

OK, Hinterland. Look at this. Now go ahead and tell me what this has got to do with bilingualism in Canada. That's what I mean by irrelevance. I'm not arrogant at all. In fact you seem to be the one who thinks everyone should respect you and conform to your opinions just because you have been here longer than the rest of us. As I said before, stop taking everything so personally.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, BTW. I've decided to ignore anymore insults you throw my way in this thread. So smear on!
From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 July 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Didn't you want this thread closed? Why start arguing now that I'm off-topic. Isn't it a little late for that?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 July 2004 05:29 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::Skdadl and I don't "tag team" each other and I'm pretty fucking insulted by that insinuation.

I thought the f word was a no no on these forums!

Can we get back on topic?


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 July 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE: idn't you want this thread closed?

Hinderlands ultimate goal go off topic and get the thread closed down just like the other thread he and his tag team friends got shut down by going off topic!

Nice little game you boys play here!


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
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posted 18 July 2004 05:42 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RECAP!

Fact: Bilingualism has cost Canadian tax payers billions. I have quoted the 37 billion dollar figure but the fact is some people say it is even higher than 37 billion. I was just trying to be fair by chosing the lesser figure and many times quoting it as the "estimated" figure!

Seems nobody knows for sure how many billions have been spent because of all these programs that the money was pumped into which came from both the treasury board and heritage Canada.

But bilingualism is only one program where tax money has been spent in huge amounts.

To ask the question is our tax money in these areas being spent in order to obtain our moneys worth well is otta line according to some people!

Like it is o.k. to rant about the cost of gun control but heaven forbid we should mention the billions spent on bilingualism!

To mention the very high cost to the Canadian tax payers for trying to keep Quebec happy is I guess another no no!

To ask the question just how much money can we save by kicking Quebec out and off the tit is another no no!

Open debate open discussion on Canadian topics? Well not here at least not all Canadian topics!
Talk about Quebec and that is a no no!

It is good that we spend billions to appeasae the minority!


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 18 July 2004 06:56 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
*sigh*

Okay, what is the point you're trying to make? That you're angry and frustrated? Point taken.

Now get a freakin' life.

Edited to add:

What is your point? That the world would be a better place if French-Canadians were unable to communicate with their government in French? That the world would be a better place without French-Canadians?

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Oliver Cromwell ]


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 18 July 2004 10:29 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps it's unwise to bother. But i can't help myself. Before doing so, I'll just say that Hinterland and skdadl are two of the most respected memebrs of the board and the farthest thing imaginable from trolls.

Brutus, you started this thread with an excellent brief from the Townshippers Association about the difficulties their community is facing. Their recommended solution is (and i'll put this is caps so you see it) MORE BILINGUALISM.

Is your recommned solution to the problems of anglo-Quebecers to abandon them, or to support them with more funding for bilingualism? In other words, is your beef with bilingualism (as a policy meant to benefit the linguistic minority in all of Canada, funding English in Quebec and French outside it), or is your beef with Quebec for not being bilingual enough? You can't have it both ways.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 19 July 2004 02:23 AM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
O lordy, the quebec basher is at it again. You know, I suspect you bilingualism bullshit rants is just your way of saying "speak white"! Or maybe you're one of those idiots who always measure everything in strictly economic terms...

[ 19 July 2004: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 July 2004 05:06 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I liked it better when Brutus was bashing conservatives.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 July 2004 08:39 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, swallow. I confess that I had lost track of the central issues of the thread, but this clarifies them for me:

quote:
Is your recommned solution to the problems of anglo-Quebecers to abandon them, or to support them with more funding for bilingualism? In other words, is your beef with bilingualism (as a policy meant to benefit the linguistic minority in all of Canada, funding English in Quebec and French outside it), or is your beef with Quebec for not being bilingual enough? You can't have it both ways.

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
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posted 19 July 2004 08:36 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
Open debate open discussion on Canadian topics? Well not here at least not all Canadian topics!
Talk about Quebec and that is a no no!

It is good that we spend billions to appeasae the minority!

My beef is with all the money we spend on bilingualism!

TAhis has been going on for over 30 years so far it is estimated to have cost 37 billion dollars to this day only 18% of the population of Canada is considered bilingual!

Do you people think we are getting our god damn moneys worth OR DO YOU THINK IT'S HIGH TIME WE CALLED IN THE AUDITOR GENERAL TO TAKE A FUCKING LOOK AT IT?


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
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posted 19 July 2004 09:07 PM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all: Brutus, could you cite the reference for your 37 billion over 30 years stat (I believe you, I just want to be able to back the stat up).

I agree with Brutus in one area: we do need to regularly look at what we spend on promoting bilingualism, as well as learning other languages for that matter.

Increasingly, new Canadians first tongue is NEITHER French nor English, but that dualism is something that many (Brutus will beg to differ!) identify with being "Canadian"... I'm personally quite ashamed of my French language skills... it ain't had and is so intrincially worthwhile in my opinion. I was nearly fluent verbally, but it atrophied quickly when I picked up Mandarin.

A reminder when discussing bilingualism policy: New Brunswick is the only bilingual province! I suppose out of that 18% nationwide, a significant portion are going to be New Brunswickers...


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
AshleyMorton
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posted 20 July 2004 02:57 AM      Profile for AshleyMorton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Though I'm really not sure where I'm going to be on this issue by the time I finish this post, here goes:

-I find tomlovestrees' idea that he feels guilty about his lack of French knowledge a very common sentiment. It seems to me that it's become a fairly common idea that it's "ethically good" to be bilingual. Not speaking French well (presuming one's an anglophone first) is somewhere in the neighbourhood of throwing your pop can into a garbage can because you can't be bothered to walk the extra couple of blocks to a public recycling bin - you know, you're not going to lose sleep over it, but you wish you were a better person.

-That (and other things) leads me to one observation: Wasn't the point of bilingualism to effectively allow and facilitate UNILINGUAL people of either language to function and interact with their government (and their cereal boxes) wherever they might be in Canada? If I grow up in a French-speaking environment in BC (which would be a feat, but not impossible), I should be able to interact with my government, understand a poison warning, and read the instructions on how to put together my kid's tricycle, WITHOUT being forced to homogenise into the anglo majority.

-Now, I realize that creates requirements for things like a bilingual civil service, which provides incentives (better chance of being hired, clearly) for being bilingual, but it doesn't actually define 'success' for the undertaking in terms of the number of bilingual people in Canada. It also doesn't make it any "less Canadian" to be unilingual, and I don't think that any thoughtful supporter of bilingualism would actually suggest that.

Sure, I'd like my French to be better. I'm currently working on my Russian and my Japanese, though. I neither owe it to anyone, Pierre Trudeau included, to learn French, nor do I equate my only marginal interest in French with a lack of support for official bilingualism. I support the program - The linguistic minorities of Saint-Boniface and Lac-Brôme need it, but I have no sinner's guilt about not enrolling in a course tomorrow. And yes, I'm fine if that hurts my shot at a job in the civil service. No one has a right to a public service job. Every French or English-speaking Canadian has the right to interact with the federal government in his/her own language.

~Ashley


From: St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 20 July 2004 12:49 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by AshleyMorton:
Though I'm really not sure where I'm going to be on this issue by the time I finish this post, here goes:

-I find tomlovestrees' idea that he feels guilty about his lack of French knowledge a very common sentiment. It seems to me that it's become a fairly common idea that it's "ethically good" to be bilingual. Not speaking French well (presuming one's an anglophone first) is somewhere in the neighbourhood of throwing your pop can into a garbage can because you can't be bothered to walk the extra couple of blocks to a public recycling bin - you know, you're not going to lose sleep over it, but you wish you were a better person.

-That (and other things) leads me to one observation: Wasn't the point of bilingualism to effectively allow and facilitate UNILINGUAL people of either language to function and interact with their government (and their cereal boxes) wherever they might be in Canada? If I grow up in a French-speaking environment in BC (which would be a feat, but not impossible), I should be able to interact with my government, understand a poison warning, and read the instructions on how to put together my kid's tricycle, WITHOUT being forced to homogenise into the anglo majority.

-Now, I realize that creates requirements for things like a bilingual civil service, which provides incentives (better chance of being hired, clearly) for being bilingual, but it doesn't actually define 'success' for the undertaking in terms of the number of bilingual people in Canada. It also doesn't make it any "less Canadian" to be unilingual, and I don't think that any thoughtful supporter of bilingualism would actually suggest that.

Sure, I'd like my French to be better. I'm currently working on my Russian and my Japanese, though. I neither owe it to anyone, Pierre Trudeau included, to learn French, nor do I equate my only marginal interest in French with a lack of support for official bilingualism. I support the program - The linguistic minorities of Saint-Boniface and Lac-Brôme need it, but I have no sinner's guilt about not enrolling in a course tomorrow. And yes, I'm fine if that hurts my shot at a job in the civil service. No one has a right to a public service job. Every French or English-speaking Canadian has the right to interact with the federal government in his/her own language.

~Ashley



Right on! That's exactly what I would have tried to say if my english was better.


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6478

posted 20 July 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by AshleyMorton:

-I find tomlovestrees' idea that he feels guilty about his lack of French knowledge a very common sentiment. It seems to me that it's become a fairly common idea that it's "ethically good" to be bilingual. Not speaking French well (presuming one's an anglophone first) is somewhere in the neighbourhood of throwing your pop can into a garbage can because you can't be bothered to walk the extra couple of blocks to a public recycling bin - you know, you're not going to lose sleep over it, but you wish you were a better person.

[snip]
-

~Ashley


I guess it's a personal thing too... I have anglophone family in Montreal: most of whom are bilingual. When hanging out with my Cousin's friends, the witty conservation often switches back and forth, and I can't keep up. I have to say, even when the conservation is all in english... there's something that sparkles on the tongue of bilingual folk, and I guess I like it.

The main frustation is that I KNOW I could become quite comfortable in my verbal French at least with around 6 months immersion... as I had the opportunity to stay in Quebec for 3 months several years back and that improved my french by leaps and bounds over what I learnt in 5 years of highschool, unfortunately, most of that ability withered away when I learnt some Mandarin. Ya gotta use it or lose it!

In addition, when I meet someone who speaks French internationally (be it a French National, an elderly Vietnamese man, or someone from the Congo) I find I really miss out a genuine opportunity to make an interesting connection.

Needless to say, I find most people who stubbornly embrace their unilingualism rather boring.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tom Vouloumanos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3177

posted 21 July 2004 01:00 AM      Profile for Tom Vouloumanos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wasn't the point of bilingualism to effectively allow and facilitate UNILINGUAL people of either language to function and interact with their government (and their cereal boxes) wherever they might be in Canada?

I thought the point of Bilingualism was to forge a new country, a new society in which as Canadians, we understood the culture (poems, films, music etc.) - first hand - of both official languages of the federation...in the meantime allowing unilingual minorites to be able to live in a region in which the majority speaks the other official language.

But the long term goal was to create this new country based on a bilingual culture in order to further make us distinct from our powerful southern neighbour.

Official Multiculturalism was also part of this idea of the Canadian pluralistic identity.

Of course we must also make First Nation's culture part of the Canadian identity as well. I think this is primordial for all of the societies of the Western Hemisphere. We all know classical Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian mythology/religion..how come we collectively know nothing about the tales, myths, religions and histories of the lands which we call home? That's the biggest embarassement of all!!!

These noble goals are all essential in defending societies such as ours against the bombardment of the monolithic commercial globalized unculture which masquarades itself as pluralism and modernity.

As for Brutus' cost effective points (i.e the cost of things and booting parts of the Confederation out), well why don't we just save all the money and give ourselves up to the United States...it might cost less.

Thankfully, our artists, our philosophers, and other great visionaries didn't see the world through the eyes of a book keeper.


From: Montréal QC | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5073

posted 21 July 2004 08:49 AM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::I agree with Brutus in one area: we do need to regularly look at what we spend on promoting bilingualism, as well as learning other languages for that matter.

Jesus christ someone here is starting to get the message.

And after you take your Canadian French course go over to France and see how well you can communicate with the French!

A friend of mine whos wife is French Canadian was told by a French waiter in Paris to speak English to him because she was murdering his language!

Oh yes we sure are getting our moneys worth 37 billion dollars and counting!

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 21 July 2004 10:05 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And after you take your Canadian French course go over to France and see how well you can communicate with the French!

A friend of mine whos wife is French Canadian was told by a French waiter in Paris to speak English to him because she was murdering his language!


I swore an oath not to respond anymore, so I'm not.

But if I were to respond, I would say that statements like this reflect a far deeper truth about someone's feelings regarding francophones in Canada than any concern over the cost of bilingualism.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 July 2004 10:18 AM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
RE::I swore an oath not to respond anymore, so I'm not.

You've just proved something about your character while questioning the character of others!

WONDERFUL!


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
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posted 21 July 2004 10:56 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And after you take your Canadian French course go over to France and see how well you can communicate with the French!

Head on out to rural Australia and speak Newfie english to them. I guarantee the communication problems will be as big.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Shane
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4328

posted 21 July 2004 11:02 AM      Profile for Shane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But if I were to respond, I would say that statements like this reflect a far deeper truth about someone's feelings regarding francophones in Canada than any concern over the cost of bilingualism.

I think that was established some time ago with Brutus' blatantly bigoted comments regarding French Canadians.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Shane
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 July 2004 11:28 AM      Profile for Shane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

Head on out to rural Australia and speak Newfie english to them. I guarantee the communication problems will be as big.


Garnteed, b'y.

Brutus, ya best be mindin' your mouth now, mawk.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 21 July 2004 11:49 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You've just proved something about your character while questioning the character of others!

WONDERFUL!


You deleted the post that started this disaster of a thread. That show more about your character or there of, than any smartass rejoinder Hinterland could come up with.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4791

posted 21 July 2004 12:12 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brutus:
RE::I agree with Brutus in one area: we do need to regularly look at what we spend on promoting bilingualism, as well as learning other languages for that matter.

Jesus christ someone here is starting to get the message.

And after you take your Canadian French course go over to France and see how well you can communicate with the French!

A friend of mine whos wife is French Canadian was told by a French waiter in Paris to speak English to him because she was murdering his language!

Oh yes we sure are getting our moneys worth 37 billion dollars and counting!

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]



What are you trying to say, that the Quebecois don't speak "real" French? In case you don’t know, the Quebecois are not French, so they don't speak like the French do. Languages change and evolve too. You, on the other hand, seem to be stuck somewhere back in the seventies…


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5073

posted 21 July 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
re::What are you trying to say, that the Quebecois don't speak "real" French?

You got it! If you want real French go to France the French here isn't real good French!


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 21 July 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess that means you're going to move across the pond and settle in jolly old England then.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 July 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
There was this study done a few decades ago by a researcher from some university in France who investigated the French spoken in Northern Ontario. He was working with the hypothesis that the French spoken there had undergone such profound changes (..as a result of English influence) that it could not longer be called French. After several months of investigation, he determined that the hypothesis could not be supported and that the francophones there did in fact, speak French.

...the response of many franco-Ontarians with regards to the study was "no shit, Clousseau!"


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 21 July 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brutus:
If you want real French go to France the French here isn't real good French!

I suggest that you make yourself a t-shirt with that quote. And then wear it during a walk in a francophone neighbourhood.

Or better yet, make it a point to tell it to everyone you hear speaking 'not real French'. Start with Raymond Villeneuve. When he's in a grumpy mood. And holding a hockey stick.

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Oliver Cromwell ]


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 21 July 2004 05:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the French here isn't real good French!

The grammar in that sentence wasn't real good (sic) English, either.

(I know, grammar flames are lame, but in this case I think it's appropriate when someone makes a grammar mistake while they're generalizing about the language skills of an entire group of people.)

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6478

posted 21 July 2004 05:48 PM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brutus:
.
A friend of mine whos wife is French Canadian was told by a French waiter in Paris to speak English to him because she was murdering his language!

Oh yes we sure are getting our moneys worth 37 billion dollars and counting!


Um... that's because that French waiter is a snobbish a-hole, not because he can't understand the language. You get the same attitude sometimes in bilingual Montreal...

Personally, I've found rural Quebec much different... people were SO helpful and appreciative in teaching you both standard and Quebecois french. Quebecois is just another French dialect/accent, one of many found through the French speaking world, including (gasp!) the different regions of France. Most educated Quebecois can easily 'switch' accents, just like I can speak Mandarin with a Texan accent if I so choose! (good party trick by the way!)

Brutus: once again, could you provide this thread some sources to your the statistics you continually want to rant at us (again, I have no reason to not believe you... it's just a polite request that you back yer facts up).

Such as: what did this $37 billion over 30 years go towards? It's important to distinguish between the costs associated with running a bi-lingual Federal government and the educational/cultural spending that goes into "furthering bilingualism". I'm quite curious of the breakdown... that's assuming do you have numbers to back up your ranting.

Tom


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 21 July 2004 07:57 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People in rural France - and even smaller cities such as Lyon - are much friendlier as well. The Parigot "garçon" was demonstrating a bad dose of urban attitude - not even specifically French - plenty of it in New York City as well. He would have been every bit as condescending to someone from Marseilles or Brussels.

There are plenty of strong regional accents in France itself. And notable changes in vocabulary and usage.

Educated Québécois can speak a French that is understandable throughout the French-speaking world - as was said, as elsewhere there is a phenomenon of "code switching" - in certain situations people will tend to speak more the local dialect. Radio-Canada broadcasts are commonly heard on the equivalent public broadcasters in France, Belgium and Switzerland.

Yeah, I noticed the grammatical mistakes in Brutus' post as well, but bit my tongue ...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5073

posted 21 July 2004 08:07 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
Tom go do your own research I have posted web sites to back up my points and they are all here in the 2 threads I started on this forum.

Here's one for you that goes back to the year 2000!

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/cultural/bilingualism/commitment.html

Here's one where I first came across the 37 billion dollar figure:

http://www.taxpayer.com/Facts/BilingualismCost.html

http://temagami.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/20102000/c2.htm

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 21 July 2004 08:35 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brutus:
And after you take your Canadian French course go over to France and see how well you can communicate with the French!

Actually, a year or two ago I did just that. Mostly southern France, actually--Avignon, Arles and a few small towns. I did fine.

I can't believe this troll has actually kept this completely and utterly troll-based thread going this long.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 July 2004 09:04 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brutus:
re::What are you trying to say, that the Quebecois don't speak "real" French?

You got it! If you want real French go to France the French here isn't real good French!


Va te faire foutre trou de cul !

Does that sound like real French to you, bigot?


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 21 July 2004 09:11 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can't believe this troll has actually kept this completely and utterly troll-based thread going this long.

I can't either, especially since the original post was deleted.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 July 2004 09:23 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, if you folks WILL keep responding in it...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 21 July 2004 09:25 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Right. I guess Brutus has to scream his bigotry up to 260 posts like the last time in order to get this thread to be closed down.

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5073

posted 22 July 2004 07:35 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
http://www.parl.gc.ca/InfoCom/PubDocument.asp?DocumentID=707989&Language=E

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Standing Committee on Official Languages


EVIDENCE
CONTENTS

Monday, February 17, 2003

Below is a bit of what was said in Parliment NOTE WHICH MINORITY LANGUAGE GROUP IS GETTING MOST OF THE GRAVY!


When I talk about the investments, in 1999, when we negotiated the current framework agreement between the Government of Canada and the Quebec Community Groups Network, which expires on March 31, 2004, the English-speaking minority community had a population close to that of the French-speaking minority community. We had 925,000, and in the rest of Canada there are 985,000 French-speaking people. We receive now a total of $15 million over the five years. The French-speaking minority of Canada receives $122 million over the five years for direct support through program and project funding. These are the facts, and we hope in the next round of negotiations there will be an important investment for the other official language minority community.

Another bigot no doubt difference is he's an M.P.!

[ 22 July 2004: Message edited by: Brutus ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brutus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5073

posted 22 July 2004 07:49 PM      Profile for Brutus        Edit/Delete Post
Some of the things we spent these billions of bilingual dollars on::::

Bilingualism timeline

1867
Section 133 of the British North America Act allows for the use of French and English in parliamentary debates and federal court proceedings. Accordingly, all parliamentary communications and laws must be published in both languages.
1927
Postage stamps are made bilingual.

1936
Bank notes become bilingual.

1963
Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism is established to investigate challenges to Canadian unity.

1969
Bill C-120 (An Act Respecting the Status of Official Languages in Canada) is passed by the Trudeau government. This is Canada's first official languages act and provides for:

• Equality of status of English and French as Canada's official languages

• Both languages to be used by federal institutions and Crown corporations

• Equal space to be given to both official languages on all signage outside federal buildings

• Federal court decisions to be issued in both languages

• A commissioner of official languages to ensure both languages are officially recognized and adopted where prescribed

1974
Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act is introduced. It ushers in — among other things — bilingual labelling of consumer products.


From: Montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
sock-puppet
Babbler # 6376

posted 22 July 2004 08:09 PM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jesus H Christ Brutus, you're still at it?

For the love of God, get a life.

And in the meantime I think you'll be interested in a new project I'm pulling together, it's called "Kicking Brutus out of Confederation".

The petition already has over 10,000 names and it's growing steadily.

Check it out at http://www.brutusout.ca


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6478

posted 22 July 2004 08:15 PM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Brutus, you're being modest!

If you follow the logic of the Canadian Taxpayer Federations (Reid's)stats, $37 billion was from 2001.

At least from their own math, it's at least $40 billion today in 2004, probably closer to $42B.

Perhaps, however, we should use the modest numbers.. as from what I gather from your posts, the Government of Canada's own claims (~$450 million per/year, compared to the Reid's ~$1.5 billion estimate)are already far too high.

Am I correct? What would be a "reasonable" ammount of money to spend on offical bilingualism in your mind?

Thanks for providing the links again, btw! I appreciate your sentiment... despite not agreeing with you. I've personally benefited from some of that Cdn. Heritege Program money (the Katimavik work experience program), and throughly enjoyed the experience: not only did it significantly advantage my French, but I also got the wonderful opportuntity to live and work across this vast, varied country of ours.

Tom


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 22 July 2004 08:20 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
This is post 95
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 22 July 2004 08:21 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
This is post 96
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 22 July 2004 08:21 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
This is post 97
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 22 July 2004 08:22 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
This is post 98
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
sock-puppet
Babbler # 6376

posted 22 July 2004 08:22 PM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Levack!!!
From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 22 July 2004 08:22 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
This is post 99
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 July 2004 08:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha. Hint taken. I don't think Audra will mind if I do the honours considering that there are about 12 other "I hate francophones" threads going.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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