quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Fidel deported tonnes of Gays ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:

A full metric tonne eh ?. It would probably be easier to find an article praising Cuba's advances in biotechnology, infant mortality, literacy rates or foreign aid programs to Uncle Sam's next door neighbors , ffs.

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Why can't you refer to the material. An issue has been raised, it is obviously being phrased rhetorically, but the fact that Fidel said some pretty backward stuff about gay people in 70's is inexcusable, and present day repression of gay people in Cuba is not as bad as elsewhere, but I think that if you want to pose Cuba as a model of civility and a champion of human rights, then there is some explaining to be done.

Not only that but needling the Cuban authorities to do more, and to be more open can only benefit us all in the long run. I mean I read a Cuban official (a fairly minor one at that) talking about writing explicit protection of gay rights into the constitution, the point now is to encourage them to do it.

And there is no harm in putting preassure on them to do it, so that you can add the phrase "... and an excelent record on gay rights issues," to your well work speil about "infant mortality rates," which is not I hate to say it, the only indicator of human well being and happiness.

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
It would probably be easier to find an article praising Cuba's advances in biotechnology, infant mortality, literacy rates or foreign aid programs to Uncle Sam's next door neighbors , ffs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
People are not calmouring to get into a lot of countries. Guatemala for instance. I don't see your point?

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You don’t “see the point”? The point is, it is absolutely hilarious to hear you “progressive” (provincial, really) Canadians trash the USA for being such an awful place (no civil liberties because of the Patriot Act, terrible healthcare system, a corrupt “corporate empire” running the show (and headed up, no doubt, by “christo-fascists”), a inept (if not evil) government in Washington, etc., etc., etc. but the fact of the matter remains that we are a magnet for people around the world looking for liberty and opportunity.

quote:

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but the fact of the matter remains that we are a magnet for people around the world looking for liberty and opportunity.

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Only the ones that can't get into Canada first.

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Originally posted by Loren from USA:
USA for being such an awful place (no civil liberties because of the Patriot Act, terrible healthcare system, a corrupt “corporate empire” running the show (and headed up, no doubt, by “christo-fascists”), a inept (if not evil) government in Washington, etc., etc., etc.

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that's quite well said. of course, the reasons why we hate the US government is a much longer list, but i think you've got the biggest, most important ones up there.

quote:

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but the fact of the matter remains that we are a magnet for people around the world looking for liberty and opportunity.

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pfft, yea right. "fact of the matter", eh? and what facts did you use to come to this illusion?

quote:

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Why do you think that is if the USA is the “laughingstock of the world”?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Loren from USA:

You don’t “see the point”? The point is, it is absolutely hilarious to hear you “progressive” (provincial, really) Canadians trash the USA for being such an awful place (no civil liberties because of the Patriot Act, terrible healthcare system, a corrupt “corporate empire” running the show (and headed up, no doubt, by “christo-fascists”), a inept (if not evil) government in Washington, etc., etc., etc. but the fact of the matter remains that we are a magnet for people around the world looking for liberty and opportunity.

Why do you think that is if the USA is the “laughingstock of the world”?

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Well I do know that some of the people clamouring to get into the USA are doing so specifically for the purposes of blowing things up, which makes me wonder about the basic premises of what you are saying.

But frankly, I'd kind of like to have a discussion with you, which does not directly link myself and Magoo as being part of the same Borg unit. I think that if you are going to champion freedom and independence of thought, you should consider treating us as if "we" may think and believe seperately from each other as more than progressives, who are jointly obsessed with a "christo-fascists corporate empire."

I have never seen the term "christo-facist" ever used on this site though I could think of a few applications (surely there must be one or tow don;t you think) and the term "coporate empire," is not a term uniquely used by the left.

"Corporate empire" is a term that is often used by corporate managers themselves when describing what they are hoping to achieve, though its a little passe.

As for health care, I can say that my experience of the California health care system (Kaiser Institute) and the Canadian health care system, leads me to feel that the Canadian health care system is markedly superior in all major aspects of concern.

I think defining the "California health care system" as a "system" at all is flattering. It seemed to me to be rather unsystematic, to the point where it was chaotic, and actually needlessly harmful to its clients. My relatives in Minnesota (your bio indicates that is where you are from,) suggest that things are somewhat better there.

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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ephemeral quote:
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Originally posted by Loren from USA:
USA for being such an awful place (no civil liberties because of the Patriot Act, terrible healthcare system, a corrupt “corporate empire” running the show (and headed up, no doubt, by “christo-fascists”), a inept (if not evil) government in Washington, etc., etc., etc.
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that's quite well said. of course, the reasons why we hate the US government is a much longer list, but i think you've got the biggest, most important ones up there.

quote:
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but the fact of the matter remains that we are a magnet for people around the world looking for liberty and opportunity.
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pfft, yea right. "fact of the matter", eh? and what facts did you use to come to this illusion?

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Why do you think that is if the USA is the “laughingstock of the world”?
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the states offers more money making opportunities, or at least it used to in the past. that's declining ever since bush stole the elections. anyway, the immigration of people to the states doesn't negate the fact that the states is a corrupt, corporate empire. and just as there are people who want to immigrate to the states, there are probably as many americans who want to abandon their (your) country because their (your) government is so corrupt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: basement parking lot of an abandoned downtown shopping center with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005 | IP: Logged

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The fact is by far the flow of people is into the U.S. NOT the other way. As far as your assumption that American's are abandoning their country is total hogwash. I am not defending the politics of the U.S. I am only stating the facts. Given that there is a corrupt administration has not stopped the influx of people to the U.S.

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Originally posted by firecaptain:
As far as your assumption that American's are abandoning their country is total hogwash.

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i didn't say that americans are abandoning their country. i said there are americans who want to. people who wish they could, but can't for whatever reasons. and my opinion is based on reading american journalists, usually in independent media, as well as meeting americans who have made the move to canada, and have no desire to go back as long as the republicans are in power.

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Even with all the things that are wrong in the U.S. and to a lesser extent in Canada, there is no question that if I had to make a choice of where to live it would be Canada or the U.S.

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Originally posted by firecaptain:
Having said that why would people abandon their country for the U.S. Like you stated one of the reason's is the opportunity to make money, but also freedom I think is a strong influence.

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sorry about the double posting. i forgot to respond to this part. i agree with you that freedom is also a big part of what inspires people from the east to make the move to the west. the west definitely provides more rights for women, and there is greater encouragment to be an individual as opposed to conforming to a society's rigid rules. but, these rights are being curtailed more and more under the current administration. in spite of this and a declining economy, the states is still viewed as the most powerful and richest country in the world. immigrants are attracted to this status that the states enjoys.

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: ephemeral ]

quote:

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Cueball wrote - As for health care, I can say that my experience of the California health care system (Kaiser Institute) and the Canadian health care system, leads me to feel that the Canadian health care system is markedly superior in all major aspects of concern.

I think defining the "California health care system" as a "system" at all is flattering. It seemed to me to be rather unsystematic, to the point where it was chaotic, and actually needlessly harmful to its clients. My relatives in Minnesota (your bio indicates that is where you are from,) suggest that things are somewhat better there.

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quote:

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ephemeral --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even with all the things that are wrong in the U.S. and to a lesser extent in Canada, there is no question that if I had to make a choice of where to live it would be Canada or the U.S.
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speak for yourself.

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I made an appointment with my doctor, and saw him the next day. I paid nothing.

He wanted an X-ray, so he wrote a scrip for it, and told me to go to a certain Medical Imaging clinic down the street.

I walked down, presented the scrip (no appointment necessary). I was given a gown, led to a changing room, and told to change. My knee was X-rayed, I changed, and left. Total time from in the door to out: 8 minutes. Total cost was nil. The clinic sent the images to my doctor. I was done.

quote:

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According to the new laws, homosexuality would only be punishable if "publicly manifested" (three months to one year in jail), and a fine would be imposed if the hapless queer was found guilty of "persistently bothering others with homosexual amorous advances."

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quote:

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posted by firecaptain:
I also stated that Canada was my first choice. Does this mean you don't want to live in Canada?

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quote:

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Originally posted by firecaptain:

As far as health care in Canada is concerned there are areas that have horrible health care compared to other cities. The health care system (broken system in many areas) also has long way to go. Most people who claim that the Canadian system is great are people who have not had to use it.

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Well I completely fucking disagree. I have a friend, who for one reason or another lost his status here. The reason for this is immaterial. In the intervening time, while he was trying to restablish his status, it was discovered that he had diabetes, and in fact he was dying on my couch. Dying.

However the health care system found a way to provide, get him insulin and keep him alive. Now, if this were the USA this guy would be dead. I know this because I have seen both of these systems at work in various areas.

quote:

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Mr. Magoo wrote - Back in the winter my knee was acting up.
I made an appointment with my doctor, and saw him the next day. I paid nothing.

He wanted an X-ray, so he wrote a scrip for it, and told me to go to a certain Medical Imaging clinic down the street.

I walked down, presented the scrip (no appointment necessary). I was given a gown, led to a changing room, and told to change. My knee was X-rayed, I changed, and left. Total time from in the door to out: 8 minutes. Total cost was nil. The clinic sent the images to my doctor. I was done.

I couldn't help wondering how I could possibly explain this to a poor American. Especially the "free" part.

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quote:

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ephemeral wrote - sorry, i was rude. i didn't realize that canada would be your first choice, as you simply said that you would live either in canada or the US. and i meant, i wouldn't want to live in the US. if i had to move out of canada, i would look into living in places like cuba (which i have actually considered immigrating to), european countries like sweden, or india.

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quote:

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Originally posted by firecaptain:
As far as health care in Canada is concerned there are areas that have horrible health care compared to other cities. The health care system (broken system in many areas) also has long way to go. Most people who claim that the Canadian system is great are people who have not had to use it.

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Crapola.

I just made a non-emergency appointment with a cardiologist two days ago, due to some possible heart damage I may have sustained from a medication I took years ago. I thought it would take months to get an appointment, what with all the hype about how you can't get any specialist services in Canada without huge waiting lists.

They had a spot next week, but that was too short notice for me to get the day off, so I decided on an appointment the week after. Less than two weeks from now.

quote:

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Cueball wrote - Well I completely fucking disagree. I have a friend, who for one reason or another lost his status here. The reason for this is immaterial. In the intervening time, while he was trying to restablish his status, it was discovered that he had diabetes, and in fact he was dying on my couch. Dying.

However the health care system found a way to provide, get him insulin and keep him alive. Now, if this were the USA this guy would be dead. I know this because I have seen both of these systems at work in various areas.

What I see from the "health care system has broken down" types is a lot of whining by rich people who don't feel like they have access to the state of the art science, and who don't care that the system does a great job at giving most people comprehensive care on basic issues, like making sure that diabetics get insulin, whether or not they might be deportable.

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Well Cueball that is your right to disagree if you wish. As far as seeing both systems at work, I to witnessed the system at work in both countries. In the case you stated I saw a similar case in the U.S. system take care of a foreigner who was just visiting. Besides how do you know if the U.S. system would have let him die?

Why don't you talk with the doctors, nurses, paramedics and first responders. These are the people who can tell you the true state of our health care system. I am NOT saying our system is inadequate, it just needs some major improvements. In some cases our system is better then the U.S., but in others we have a long way to go. One of those improvements is to make sure ALL areas receive the same quality of care which is NOT the case at present.

Yes cueball you are also correct that for the most part our system gives comprehensive care on basic issues, but what about the not so basic issues? Read my previous post for an example.

I made the mistake of needing to visit a dermatologist here, and after waiting for 5 months for my appointment, I got to his office and sat with approximately 30 other people waiting to get in... My appointment was at 9 am, and I finally got in around 11...

I needed to visit an allergist, and it again took almost 4 months to get an appointment...

Went with my partner to the emergency room a couple of months ago for a disabling migraine - he had two shots of morphine, and was left in an empty room for two hours until he felt better...

He saw a doctor for about 3 minutes and a nurse twice... The bill showed up the next week - $2,400

Luckily, we have insurance to cover it... If you don't have insurance here, you're dead...

Sure there's good healthcare here, but there are lots of horror stories too...

quote:

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Originally posted by Loren from USA:

That's a joke, right? Yeppers, people are banging down the doors to get into Cuba. The island will be overrun with people before you know it.

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I gimped my foot wearing shoes that were shot all to hell and I needed to see a doctor. So I hit up a walk-in clinic in Richmond. Took about 15 minutes to wait for them to get my file and I was done like dinner 10 minutes after that.

One of the things that has always givem me a bit of a jaundiced eye about that country is precisely Cuba's harsh treatment of homosexuals in the 1960s through the 1980s.

quote:

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
Doesn't for a MINUTE excuse his brutal treatment of gays. Get your tongue out of his ass and stop excusing the inexcusable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by firecaptain:

No need to apoligize. Yes my first choice would be Canada and my second choice would be the U.S. I for one would not want to move to Cuba, India or Europe.

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Actually, Europe is also a popular third world refugee desination, by what I know. Apparently, the number of people living in poverty has skyrocketed in the Eastern block nations since the start of economic reforms ... several years ago. Either the Smithian economic long run or death will kick-in eventually for the free market faithful. The afterlife seems a surer thing though.

The States is closer for those without squatters rights in Latin America or just want to avoid death squads and the rainy season. Cuban aid workers tend to want to return to Cuba after visiting those free market utopias off Uncle Sam's back doorstep.

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Michelle wrote - Crapola.

I just made a non-emergency appointment with a cardiologist two days ago, due to some possible heart damage I may have sustained from a medication I took years ago. I thought it would take months to get an appointment, what with all the hype about how you can't get any specialist services in Canada without huge waiting lists.

They had a spot next week, but that was too short notice for me to get the day off, so I decided on an appointment the week after. Less than two weeks from now.

Maybe it would have been different if I still lived in Kingston. But I have watched members of my family go through medical emergencies, in underserviced areas, and get immediate treatment, including open heart surgery and cancer treatments.

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Well Michelle I have seen people have a long wait in these underserviced areas. Luckily you are in an area that has an abundance of doctors. Obviously you have overlooked my example of poor service that I posted previous to yours.

Besides wasn't the original post concerning Cuba's poor treatment of homosexuals? Talk about thread drift. I am sure we could go on with example after example about the medicare system's pro's and con's, but don't you agree that there is room for improvement?

In free market Botswana, AIDS infection rate is about 38%.

Life expectancy in Cuba is 77 - 80 years.

In free market Botswana, avg life expectancy is about 39 years.

And you're right about free market India. They export food faithfully to the market gods every year as millions suffer chronic hunger. Mao's China equalled and then lowered its infant mortality rate over what free market India's IM rate is today ... by 1975.

Cuba rates better than a bevy of of third world capitalist shitholes today on a number of real measures.

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Fidel wrote - Actually, Europe is also a popular third world refugee desination, by what I know. The States is closer for those without squatters rights in Latin America or just want to avoid death squads and the rainy season. Cuban aid workers tend to want to return to Cuba after visiting those free market utopias off Uncle Sam's back doorstep.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BC NDPer:
Fidel, if El Presidente is so popular, move to Cuba and vote for Fidel. Wait, nobody wants to move to Cuba and nobaby can vote in Cuba. Typical PC thought...anti-US dictator - good, but if he's a homophobic anit-US dictator - bad.

In 20 years Fidel will be as popular as Ceauşescu is now.

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Have you ever been to Cuba and walked the longest stretch of white coral sand beach in the world that was once the sole posession of the Dupont family ?. The barbed wire and attack dogs are long gone, and Varadero is open for all Cuban's and the world to enjoy. Children no longer have to sell themselves to wealthy tourists while their parents broke their backs from sunup to sundown in the cane fields.

Fidel is an old man now. If Cuban's had wanted to overthrow him, they would have done it by now. Batista and his mafia thugs couldn't last and didn't because of the people's courage and will for a free Cuba.

quote:

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In 20 years Fidel will be as popular as Ceauşescu is now.

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Was Ceauşescu a communist?

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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That's a joke, right? Yeppers, people are banging down the doors to get into Cuba. The island will be overrun with people before you know it.

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quote:

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Fidel is an old man now. If Cuban's had wanted to overthrow him, they would have done it by now.

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Are you sure?

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:

Have you ever been to Cuba and walked the longest stretch of white coral sand beach in the world that was once the sole posession of the Dupont family ?. The barbed wire and attack dogs are long gone, and Varadero is open for all Cuban's and the world to enjoy. Children no longer have to sell themselves to wealthy tourists while their parents broke their backs from sunup to sundown in the cane fields.

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Um, thats not very accurate either. The nice beaches like many third world resorts are for tourists. The jobs aren't too too far from selling one's slef to wealthy tourists. Many people come back and have very little interaction with the people of Cuba while at their resorts. It is not a paradise of equality.

That's all you need to know. Now stop criticizing Cuba! Viva la revolucion! Viva la revolucion!

quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Was Ceau&# 351;escu a communist?

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Yes, Romania became a lapdog for US interests when it announced its enthusiasm for a war on poor people in Iraq as part of the coalition of the willing in 2003. The US never really gave a shit about Romania except now they have joint interests in the Constanza-Omisalj oil pipeline.

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Was Ceauşescu a communist?

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Pro-US Stalinist who had a falling out with Brezhnev...

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CMOT Dibbler wrote - Fidel, You are the Red equivilent of Macabee. Whenever somebody dares to critcize China, Cuba Singapore or any other other regime you consider to be "socalistic" you automatically try to distract the critic by pointing to the U.S. or one of its client and talking about the awful things that go on there without actually adressing the criticism.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DrConway:
I don't know if Castro has mellowed any, but there does appear to be change afoot. I'll believe it when the protections get written in and the Cuban government quits persecuting 'em.

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well, the first gay marriage in cuba didn't get raided by state officials, even though public display of homosexuality is, i believe, still illegal.

there are all sorts of rumours like castro himself is gay, that his brother was gay, a close friend of his (somebody guevara - not related to che) was also gay. but i don't know how true any of these allegations are.

i agree with fidel that cuba scores much better than many free-world, capitalist countries in many regards (which is why i thought about moving there once), but i wouldn't paint it as an utopia. castro's government is a dictatorship, and dictatorships are always oppressing. not everybody in cuba is happy under their leader.

quote:

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posted by albion1:
since George W. Bush won his first election in 2004 (he stole the one in 2000) alot of Americans are banging down the doors to get into Canada.

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bush stole both elections. the 2004 online voting system was a fraud, and he influenced votes in 2004 in florida just like he did the first time.

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posted by bc ndper:
Wait, nobody wants to move to Cuba ...

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Originally posted by Fidel:
And Magoo usually sticks around for a few snappy comments. Other than that, he couldn't care less about current events outside of the GTA. Trip over any homeless people lately, Magoo ?. Tell us about your most recent inconvenience, please. We're all sitting at attention and the floor is yours. Have an apple ?.

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Stop trying to rub Magoo's face in the muck and talk about the topic of this thread. Can you tell me weather protection for Gays has been written into the Cuban constitution?

(Edited to make this post more relevant to the discussion and less confrontational.)

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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Originally posted by DrConway:
One of the things that has always givem me a bit of a jaundiced eye about that country is precisely Cuba's harsh treatment of homosexuals in the 1960s through the 1980s.

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quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I've always been kind of bummed out by the fact that prior to 1969 the Criminal Code of Canada prohibited homosexual acts. So it's not surprising that a country like Cuba would not be more progressive on the topic back then.

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True enough.

As an aside, I find it funny that this thread got well and truly threadjacke even though CMOT wasn't attacking Cuba or Fidel. He just started this thread with a simple question: "Has Cuba moderated its treatment of homosexuals?"

The simple answer would have been "yes".

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Erstwhile ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Erstwhile:

True enough.

As an aside, I find it funny that this thread got well and truly threadjacke even though CMOT wasn't attacking Cuba or Fidel. He just started this thread with a simple question: "Has Cuba moderated its treatment of homosexuals?"

The simple answer would have been "yes".

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Erstwhile ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by DrConway:
One of the things that has always givem me a bit of a jaundiced eye about that country is precisely Cuba's harsh treatment of homosexuals in the 1960s through the 1980s.

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My concern would be there's harsh treatment and then there's harsh treatment.

There's a difference between being ostracized and ending up on the receiving end of a car battery connected to one's scrotum.

Which would better characterize Cuba's treatment up until the late 80s?

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]

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ephemeral wrote - i agree with fidel that cuba scores much better than many free-world, capitalist countries in many regards (which is why i thought about moving there once), but i wouldn't paint it as an utopia. castro's government is a dictatorship, and dictatorships are always oppressing. not everybody in cuba is happy under their leader.

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Your statement above sounds like your talking out both sides of your mouth. How can Cuba be MUCH better then MANY free-world countries in many regards, and as you state you considered moving there, but you never did why. Is it because the free-world countries have far more pro's then con's? Also I would think most people in cuba are unhappy in a dictatorship, but keep quiet for fear of imprisonment or worse.

quote:

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Originally posted by firecaptain:
Your statement above sounds like your talking out both sides of your mouth. How can Cuba be MUCH better then MANY free-world countries in many regards, and as you state you considered moving there, but you never did why. Is it because the free-world countries have far more pro's then con's? Also I would think most people in cuba are unhappy in a dictatorship, but keep quiet for fear of imprisonment or worse.

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quote:

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ephemeral wrote - by "both sides of your mouth", i take it you're saying i'm contradicting myself? just because i can see both the pros and cons of castro's dictatorship and cuba's economy doesn't mean i'm confused about where i stand. i was looking at immigrating to cuba as a distant back-up plan in case i ended up not being able to immigrate to canada. turned out i couldn't immigrate to cuba anyway cause it's only possible through marriage, and i was already in a committed relationship. had nothing to do with canada being better than cuba in any respect. if immigration to cuba was possible, i would have chosen it over the states. i would also choose a developing country over the states because some developing countries have so much to offer in terms of art, history and culture. bush's administration is like a wolf in lamb's clothing - it's a dictatorship disguised as a "democracy." also, sweden has a better standard of living than canada or the states (i think! i'm 99% sure). people pay more taxes, but i think it's worth it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Was Ceauşescu a communist?

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by firecaptain:

Well Cueball that is your right to disagree if you wish. As far as seeing both systems at work, I to witnessed the system at work in both countries. In the case you stated I saw a similar case in the U.S. system take care of a foreigner who was just visiting. Besides how do you know if the U.S. system would have let him die?

Why don't you talk with the doctors, nurses, paramedics and first responders. These are the people who can tell you the true state of our health care system. I am NOT saying our system is inadequate, it just needs some major improvements. In some cases our system is better then the U.S., but in others we have a long way to go. One of those improvements is to make sure ALL areas receive the same quality of care which is NOT the case at present.

Yes cueball you are also correct that for the most part our system gives comprehensive care on basic issues, but what about the not so basic issues? Read my previous post for an example.

Just for the record I am NOT one of those rich whiny types you seem to dislike. Also why should Canadians not be entitled to the best access to state of the art science?

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quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Stop trying to rub Magoo's face in the muck and talk about the topic of this thread. Can you tell me weather protection for Gays has been written into the Cuban constitution?

(Edited to make this post more relevant to the discussion and less confrontational.)

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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No. However...

quote:

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How do you think our laws can better reflect respect for the rights of homosexuals?

The Constitution of the Republic protects all people, regardless of their race, sex or age. Obviously, this protection includes homosexuals, albeit not explicitly (when something like that is made explicit, it is official recognition that there is a need to avoid any type of discrimination, like racism or sexism).

In my opinion, some day, when plans are made to revise the constitution, I believe it should very explicitly include “sexual orientation”, in the same way that it includes race, gender, and other considerations. I don't consider this to be an urgent matter, but I do believe we should be clearer about this in our laws, more evident, not only to protect against discrimination against these people in public institutions but also in the space of the family, because it is often there that a homosexual is first insulted or rejected.

To be rejected by your own family is one of the most personally and emotionally destructive experiences a person can have, even more so when the condition that caused the rejection, sexual orientation, was not a matter of personal choice.

---

Eduardo Jimanez Garcia -- the director of the Cuban National Institute for Sex Education (CENESEX)

So there you have it "...some day..." "...in my opinion...." "I don't consider this to be an urgent matter..."

But then didn't Marx say: "Party aparatchiks have only interpreted the constitution in various ways; the point is, to change it".

[ 22 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

talk about thread drift...

[ 23 July 2005: Message edited by: ephemeral ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tape_342:
My concern would be there's harsh treatment and then there's harsh treatment.

There's a difference between being ostracized and ending up on the receiving end of a car battery connected to one's scrotum.

Which would better characterize Cuba's treatment up until the late 80s?

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Well, getting dumped into prisons, internment camps and what-have-you in the 1960s and 1970s for starters, and then in the '80s when AIDS started rolling around, in Cuba at the time, if you were even suspected of having it, you were hoofed off to the nearest quarantine center. Now, in medical terms that's exactly the right thing to do, since it halts the spread of infection, but it's a gross denial of basic civil rights and furthermore, since the tests for HIV (at the time they called it HTLV) back then didn't directly test for the disease, they tested for the presence of antibodies, it meant that (a) you could get false positives and (b) there were still possible undetected carriers in the Cuban population.

Conclusion: Leaky sieve, bad idea. Bad for homosexuals, bad all around. I have no idea why Castro had a serious hate-on for homosexuals in the 1960s and 1970s, but, hell, so did Stalin and we know Stalin was one nasty asshole to just about anyone he didn't like. He had the Chechens packed off somewhere just because, so, y'know.

John Ashcroft would have been wetting his pants at the thought of having the unrestricted legal power to dump any AIDS carrier into his little Gulag.

Which, you know, makes me wonder if many part of the embargo is just penis envy because Castro can do anything he wants that even the most right-wing fascist bastard in the USA still has to pussyfoot around.

[ 23 July 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]

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Which, you know, makes me wonder if many part of the embargo is just penis envy because Castro can do anything he wants that even the most right-wing fascist bastard in the USA still has to pussyfoot around.

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Fidel, You are the Red equivilent of Macabee. Whenever somebody dares to critcize China, Cuba Singapore or any other regime you consider to be "socalistic" you automatically try to distract the critic by pointing to the U.S. or one of its client states and talking about the awful things that go on there without actually adressing the criticism.

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That's not all the way true. What I take exception to is someone who says that China is a capitalist state or the USA is a good example of capitalism. The truth is, both of those countries have implemented socialist policies to greater and lesser extents. Hawks in the states make the very same claims that you do, ie. that the issues and policies are black-white, cut and dried, and that New Deal socialism was the beginning of ruination for them. The truth is, conservatives can see issues in b/w only, and they refuse to acknowledge that New Deal socialism is what helped build a prosperous post-1929 America. There are conservatives who still believe that Herbert Hoover was on the right track and that Milton Friedman is responsible for an economic miracle in 1980/90's Chile.

It seems that everywhere an economy is experiencing success, socialist policies were in place for a period leading up to that success or were directly responsible for the current success as is the case in Singapore and Lee Kwan Yew, a protege of British socialist Harold Wilson, and now Yew's son. The free market part is generally not a hard study. It's what comes before it that matters, and right now, the entire capitalist third world is in dire need of some red hot socialism.

Reformism killed what could have happened in France too in 68.

Anyway as far as socialism goes, better to reject it seeing that it is just the workers wing of capital.

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Hawks in the states make the very same claims that you do, ie. that the issues and policies are black-white, cut and dried, and that New Deal socialism was the beginning of ruination for them.

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No I don't. I think the Cuban revolutionaries did a remarkable thing. They created the first fully communist state that has benifited The People. I admire the Cuban health care system and Cuban self sufficiency. I admire the fact that Fidel threw out the death penalty and I even have some respect for Castro himself. He's a consumate politician and a great aurator. He seems witty and intelligent.

One other note about Fidel, I was watching that Stone documentery(Oliver likes him btw) and I saw the part where Fidel was eating a fancy shmancy dinner in this little palace. that says it all right there. He get's the fancy food, the people get rations. I love it. A formal capitalist would be proud. Anyone who continues to defend this guy needs to give their head a shake.

[ 23 July 2005: Message edited by: Vigilante ]

I didn't know that about the revolutionaries. It's sad, but given that Castro is quite ruthless when it comes to dealing with dissenters, hardly surprising.

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That's not all the way true. What I take exception to is someone who says that China is a capitalist state or the USA is a good example of capitalism. The truth is, both of those countries have implemented socialist policies to greater and lesser extents.

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Yes, I know that. I have a basic understanding of Keynesian economics. I am a social democrat. The problem I have with your political philosiphy is not it's economic component(which I whole heartedly agree with) but it's social component. You are constantly justifing the horrendous atrocities committed by people like Stalin and Mao by saying things like Stalin may have been an totalitarian asshat, but at least the soviets got four square meals a day!" I'm sorry that isn't good enough. totalitarian acts need to be challenged whereever they show up, not apologized for. That's why I refuse to call Singapore a socialist state. It isn't, and it won't be until people stop being caned for spitting on the sidwalk, and can hold anti government rallys without being imprisoned.
Without protections for human rights, Lee Kwan Yew's socialism is a souless joke.

[ 23 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Dude, Cuba Is a state which is ruled by an authoritarian dictator who has decreed that gays who are caught smoooching with their sweeties in public will be thrown in jail for three months.

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Where is this available on line. Also did you see the interview with the Cuban official talking about explicitly enshrining the rights of gay people in the constitution, which you was what you asked about earlier?

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Originally posted by Vigilante:
You do know the cuban revolutionaries got jacked right? The majority did not want what Fidel and his boys were doing.

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Before 1959, the July 26 Movement fought in the mountains, championing the cause of the peasantry and the agricultural labourers. Castro and the other July 26 leaders promised to carry out radical land reform, to give all the peasants land, to end poverty, unemployment and illiteracy. At the same time the urban wing of the July 26 Movement was carrying on an underground fight for better conditions for the urban workers. Castro and his associates were hugely popular, because they walked the talk.

Once the movement took power, they made good on their promises for radical land reform and amelioration of the conditions of the working poor and unemployed. Because of US hostility to these reforms, Castro armed the entire population in a nationwide militia. Every block in every city and town had a Committee for the Defence of the Revolution, involving masses of people directly in improving the conditions in their own neighbourhoods. Had Castro not had the overwhelming support of the mass of the Cuban people, they would have had no difficulty overthrowing him; he habitually walked freely among thousands of armed Cubans, without incident. The fact that the Cuban masses participated in the social and economic transformations taking place in the early days of the revolution, and made them successful, is proof that Castro enjoyed broad support for his program.

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Where is this available on line.

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Funny thing is when disscusing cuba it's always been a black and white debate. If your anti-castro, your with the USians. Up untill the 70s most anarchists even bought this garbage. The two writers I mentioned are one of the 1st radicals to really tell what the situation really was in Cuba as opposed to what those lying red fascists like to spout(they've been lying since Russia)

Anyway I posted this on another thread but here's what Fidel did shortly after he took power.

Jan 1, 1959 Batista flees.

Jan 4 Castro appoints a "provisional government" without consulting
with other anti-Batista groups. Armed Student Directorio seizes
and refuses to evacuate the Presidential Palace and the
university of Havana.

Jan 10 Habeas corpus suspended. Capital punishment decreed.

Feb 16 Castro appoints himself Premier.

April 5 Censorship of press, radio, television etc. begins.
Strikes prohibited.

May 8 Castro government assumes unlimited power.

May 17 Agrarian Reform Law (National Institute of Agrarian Reform--INRA)
passed. Law 43: "...the INRA will appoint administrators and the
workers will accept all orders and decrees dictated by INRA..."

June 9 Resolution 6, gives Castro unlimited power to spend public funds
without being accountable to anyone.

July 7 Article 25 of Fundamental Law further extends death penalty for
"acts hostile to the regime."

(I'm skipping a lot of stuff here...)

June 3, 1960 Death Penalty decreed for misappropriation of funds.

October "...a strike is a counter-revolutionary act in a socialst
republic..." (Castro). "...The destiny of the unions is to
disappear..." (Che Guevera). "...the Minister of Labor can take
control of any union or federation of unions, dismiss officials
and appoint others..." (law 647)

All of this is in the books. It happened, this is what Castro is, he's a lying red fascist vanguard sun of a bitch.And so many in cuba through state propaganda probably don't know this. The other revolutionaries(who outnumbered him and his group) trusted him, and they got jacked. This is what these people did. In Russia The same types of communist revolutionaries trusted Lenin and Trotsky with what they wrote in that document of theirs. However as fate would have it, certain promises were broken within hours,HOURS! Fidel is from the same philosophical bloodline that destroys macro-revolutions like this.So close then so far as they make it.

People who believe in this nonsense do not no what a fucking revolution is. A REVOLTlution is what the capital words point out, a rovolt. A series of uncontrolable revolts by uncontrolable individuals. Any formalization of this is contraditory. Your not suppose to ask what is to be done. It just happens in a spontanious manner(Argentina, Paris 68) People like Lenin and castro(along with unions too btw) are managers of revolt, pure and simple. People like Lenin and Castro should have gotten a bullet in the head. Hopefully if or when the next big one happens the power the rhyzome(see my latest post) will be respected. We've learned our lesson from people like Castro, hopefully never again.

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What is required is some sort of substantiation. Forgive me CMOT, but I believe that is what you wanted, right?

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[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by firecaptain:

The fact is by far the flow of people is into the U.S. NOT the other way. As far as your assumption that American's are abandoning their country is total hogwash. I am not defending the politics of the U.S. I am only stating the facts. Given that there is a corrupt administration has not stopped the influx of people to the U.S.

Having said that why would people abandon their country for the U.S. Like you stated one of the reason's is the opportunity to make money, but also freedom I think is a strong influence.

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Are you sure?

Look, I apreciate many of the things Castro has done. I have picture of the man beside my bed. However, Cuba is pretty far from being a utopian island paradise, and I think it is a mistake to portray it as such.

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Originally posted by ephemeral:

that's not true. nobody moves to cuba because nobody can immigrate there unless they marry a cuban citizen, and there are severe restrictions even on that. (i think the couple have to have known each other for 3 years or something like that).

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So many people see moving to the US as the only way to escape that cycle.

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But the US isn't just a country with a few more opportunities, it's a Capitalist country! Sure, it may lure you with iPods and cheap soda pop, but in the end, doesn't the Capitalist pick your pocket to finance his lavish lifestyle (and destruction of the environment, etc., etc)?

Surely people wouldn't be lured away from an egalitarian Communist country where their needs are taken care of by the Mother State in order to take their chances with exploitation and the theft of Capitalism?

Although it's worth noting that the same phenomenon could be seen back when a wall divided Berlin. Somehow the flow of human traffic (and murdered human victims) was oriented entirely toward people trying to flee the Worker's Paradise in order to throw themselves right into the jaws of the Capitalist lion.

Now West Germany wasn't the US. Why would so many East Germans be willing to risk their lives being shot by their own country? Why would they want to move to West Germany, which was, as I say, no United States?

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

But the US isn't just a country with a few more opportunities, it's a Capitalist country! Sure, it may lure you with iPods and cheap soda pop, but in the end, doesn't the Capitalist pick your pocket to finance his lavish lifestyle (and destruction of the environment, etc., etc)?

Surely people wouldn't be lured away from an egalitarian Communist country where their needs are taken care of by the Mother State in order to take their chances with exploitation and the theft of Capitalism?

Although it's worth noting that the same phenomenon could be seen back when a wall divided Berlin. Somehow the flow of human traffic (and murdered human victims) was oriented entirely toward people trying to flee the Worker's Paradise in order to throw themselves right into the jaws of the Capitalist lion.

Now West Germany wasn't the US. Why would so many East Germans be willing to risk their lives being shot by their own country? Why would they want to move to West Germany, which was, as I say, no United States?

Could it be that Communism sucks ass? I mean, maybe some of it has to do with the lure of theme parks and shopping malls, but is it possible that some people also just yearn for freedom, and they know that they'll have that in the US (or the former West Germany) and that they can't ever have that in Cuba, East Germany, or any other totalitarian state?

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Naw. Capitalism, unlike socialism is geared to creating wealth. It does this through exploitation. A large amount of US wealth (and therefore opportunity) is generated because the US has become the focal point for the world economy. This is for a lot of reasons. But among those reasons is that it is sucking these other economies dry. In essence these people are who are calmouring to get into the US are doing so basicly because they are chasing after the money that has been drawn out of the economy they come from.

Cuba, should not be compared to the US, but to other small agrarian econommies. I think that if there was not the opportunity for some of the most skilled to get into the US, and the same condition prevailed in Haiti as do now, you would find that people would be moving to Cuba, not to the north.

And also of course your west germany east germany cmparison sucks as well. First of all the division came about as a result of world war 2. During WW2 the Soviet Union and all of eastern europe was completely destoryed. The indusrial base had been blown to snot, and there was a huge refugee problem. This was not the case for the US, which survived the war not only inheriting most of Englands empire, but with very littl damage to its own mainland.

Because of this the US was able to make substantial investments into europe under the Marshall, unlike eastern Europe, which basicly had to build up from scratch.

This is not to say that there are not problems that are indemic to the command economy model, because there are, but to say that comparisons really have to be made carefully, and can't be based on things like immigration paterns. After all many people flee less prosperous capitalist economies to go to the wealthiest country in the world, as well.

To note that people like being at the hub of the global economy, is not really to say much more than people like to be were the actions is. I think you are crediting it with far to much signifigance. People always gravitate to the hub of the empire, this is always the way it has been.

[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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In essence these people are who are calmouring to get into the US are doing so basicly because they are chasing after the money that has been drawn out of the economy they come from.

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Ah. Not that they want a big screen television and a car. They just want to take back what's "rightfully theirs".

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And also of course your west germany east germany cmparison sucks as well.

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Yes, for anyone whose support of communism puts them in the untenable position of having to explain all those East Germans getting murdered for trying to leave East Germany.

Communism is awesome, if you want to get shot in the back for disagreeing.

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People always gravitate to the hub of the empire, this is always the way it has been.

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C'mon Magoo. not even you believes your bullshit about "freedom." Right now, Salvadoran and Colombian children are free to play hide and seek with right wing death squads and pick garbage for a living. Aint capitalism sexy in those shitholes so close to the USA.

[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

But once you see the options, and once someone smuggles in a newspaper from somewhere else and you're introduced to new foreign concepts like "voting" and "freedoms", well, as they say, "how you gonna keep 'em on the farm now that they've seen Paree?"

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I'm sure communism has some appeal when you have absolutely nothing. In fact I've heard it said that communism is a great system of government for a country that's got very little and capitalism is great once it's grown to have a bit more.

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Once it's grown ?. Hmmmm, now we're getting somewhere with "what cold war?" Magoo. ha ha The economic long run, eh ?. Is that what over 800 million chronically hungry around the world are waiting for now ?. Anywhere from six to thirteen million children won't live to see the capitalist economic long run this year or the next or the one after that, Magoo. The Keynesian-militarists have exchanged the red menace for their former associates in Afghanistan, Magoo. Colonialism and predatory capitalism has no intention of delivering on the economic long run, Magoo.

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Billions of poor living in abject poverty in the capitalist third world understand that they can't eat words like "freedom" and "democracy."

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I don't see that there's a need to choose between some state ownership of production and basic freedoms.

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Discontent clouds Cuba anniversary
From correspondents in Havana, Cuba
27jul05

COMMUNIST Cuba marked the 52nd anniversary of the start of President Fidel Castro's revolution today without a traditional outdoor mass rally and under a cloud of growing social discontent.

Castro planned to address supporters in a Havana theatre this afternoon to commemorate the 1953 assault he led on a garrison to launch a revolutionary movement that brought him to power six years later.
His critics say there is little cause to celebrate for Cubans who face persistent economic hardship, dilapidated housing, low wages and food shortages.

Record heat and power cuts of 12 hours or more a day led to scattered protests, vandalism and rare anti-Castro graffiti this summer, veteran human rights activist Elizardo Sanchez said.

Authorities have responded by mobilising rapid deployment brigades of militant supporters to disperse pockets of protest with batons, he and other dissidents said.

"I have not seen such widespread discontent in four decades," said Mr Sanchez, head of the Cuban Commission for Human Rights.

The ravages of hurricane Dennis, which killed 16 people and destroyed thousands of houses in its July 7-8 rampage through Cuba, further undermined trust in the government's ability to resolve crucial social problems, he said.

The death of eight children from an unknown cause, announced by public health authorities on Sunday, is an extra cause for concern for Havana residents and the government, which takes pride in Cuba's free universal health care system.

Castro, who turns 79 next month, declared earlier this year that Cuba had overcome the deep crisis it was plunged into by the demise of the Soviet Union more than a decade ago, with the loss of billions of dollars in subsidies.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Any reason why countries such as you describe couldn't adopt a model more like our own here in Canada? In other words, not laissez-faire capitalism and not Soviet-style communism, but the best of both?

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Yes, absolutely. I think that this is being debated around the world right now with people like Joe Stiglitz and others calling for an end to corrupt IMF loans. It's the beginning of an admittal that Washington consensus isn't working in poor countries. The despotic regimes propped up by thd west and multinationals, ultimately, will have to go though. Perhaps Cuba will benefit by investment after its made into a showcase for capitalism as West Germany was. But what of the surrounding opportunities to showcase capitalism, or at least the power of free markets in Haiti or El Salvador ?. There are geopolitical forces preventing truly free markets, in many an opinion. Multinationals must be tamed into thinking and acting globally and not as concentrations of wealth and political influence. The world's poor and working class need representation. Old Galbraith still talks about a world-wide union movement being what's needed as opposed to 1930's-style fixes for bad economies. I don't know. The world needs velvet revolution, and massive dissent towards the way things have unfolded since Marxists laid down their rifles for the promise of peace and prosperity. Oh aye, the economic long run certainly sounded good at the time.

I think that the workers prosperity in the west that lasted about the same as the cold war itself, is definitely eroded since Reagan, Mulroney and Thatcher declared an end to Soviet communism. Unbridled capitalism desires a redo of laissez faire around the workd. They could be making a mistake by showing their fangs so early on. I think they want another cold war. Anything but peace and prosperity. That scenario isn't nearly as profitable. Chaos rules merrily.

[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
But once you see the options, and once someone smuggles in a newspaper from somewhere else and you're introduced to new foreign concepts like "voting" and "freedoms", well, as they say, "how you gonna keep 'em on the farm now that they've seen Paree?"

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You confuse voting with plutocratically-controlled multi-party structures. In Cuba, people vote and choose their representatives from among themselves. And "freedoms" are relative. Beside 'freedom of speech' we also have 'freedom to die homeless in a back alley'. Some 'freedoms' are desirable, some are not. There should be no general 'freedom' to harm another human being, for example, whether by inciting hatred or by acting on it.

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Anyway, it may very well be that in a communist country, most citizens are well aware of the options and prefer communism. I doubt it, but it's possible.?"

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Cuba sends medical personnel all over the world. It would be easy for them to 'defect' to capitalist countries, and yet they choose to go back to Cuba after their stint is done. Life in Cuba can't be as bad as Uncle Sam would like us to believe it is, or they'd run away to the US. Right now there are hundreds of Cuban doctors in Haiti. With the puppet government and western occupation forces, it would be easy for them to 'flee', if that is what they really wanted.

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It still doesn't preclude me asking why it's such a problem for communist states to have a few dissenters.

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Those aren't dissenters. Those are people who receive money from the US in order to overthrow the cuban government. That is hardly the same thing. Besides, the US has imprisoned tens of thousands of political dissenters all over the world, and on top of that doesn't even give them the 'privilege' of a judicial trial.

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Why not just let them leave?

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I am pretty sure they could if they seriously wanted to. Their purpose is to overthrow the government, so why would they leave?

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Heck, if they hate communism and are only going to cause trouble, why not give them a new suit and a souvenir, and show them to the train station?

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Originally posted by Fidel:

Once it's grown ?. Hmmmm, now we're getting somewhere with "what cold war?" Magoo. ha ha The economic long run, eh ?. Is that what over 800 million chronically hungry around the world are waiting for now ?. Anywhere from six to thirteen million children won't live to see the capitalist economic long run this year or the next or the one after that, Magoo. The Keynesian-militarists have exchanged the red menace for their former associates in Afghanistan, Magoo. Colonialism and predatory capitalism has no intention of delivering on the economic long run, Magoo.

Capitalism based on consumption isn't realistic or sustainable for this 5% of the world, never mind the other 95. Globalism is a lie. The third world wants social democracy, not lies and broken promises, Magoo. Smithian laissez-faire crashed and burned in Pinochet's Chile just as badly as it did for us in 1929. Billions of poor living in abject poverty in the capitalist third world understand that they can't eat words like "freedom" and "democracy."

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Beside 'freedom of speech' we also have 'freedom to die homeless in a back alley'.

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I don't believe any political system could take away that right. What's your point?

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It would be easy for them to 'defect' to capitalist countries, and yet they choose to go back to Cuba after their stint is done.

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I'm not suggesting that every citizen of Cuba hates it. But what of those who clearly DO wish to leave, and signal such by getting into a rickety boat and trying to? Why shouldn't they be allowed to leave?

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Those aren't dissenters. Those are people who receive money from the US in order to overthrow the cuban government.

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I'm simply talking about citizens of communist countries who try or have tried to leave.

Over a thousand people were shot trying to jump the Berlin Wall. Why? What harm could come of letting them go?

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Their purpose is to overthrow the government, so why would they leave?

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I think most refugees from communism are just that. People who don't wish to live under communism. Why are they shot regardless?

My hypothesis: because if you let one of them leave, you have to let everyone who wishes to go leave.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I don't believe any political system could take away that right. What's your point?

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My point is, there are no homeless people in Cuba. Though unlike here nobody gets the chance to exploit their neighbours and accumulate great wealth way beyond their needs, there is also nobody who needs to fear of not having the necessities of life. It's a balance.

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I'm not suggesting that every citizen of Cuba hates it. But what of those who clearly DO wish to leave, and signal such by getting into a rickety boat and trying to? Why shouldn't they be allowed to leave?

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I don't know if the issue is whether they are 'allowed' to leave or not. Clearly there are NO DIRECT FLIGHTS to the US, nor any mode of tourist transportation between the US and Cuba - due to US government policy -, and the people drawn by the illusion presented by the US don't want to go to Mexico. Hence they try to reach the US by other means.

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I'm simply talking about citizens of communist countries who try or have tried to leave.

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I was under the impression you were referring to the "dissidents".

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Over a thousand people were shot trying to jump the Berlin Wall. Why? What harm could come of letting them go?

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Brain drain. BTW, my parents fled East Germany in 1959. Those weren't communist countries any more than ours are democracies. It's not the coat you wear that determines who you are. Cuba is no paradise, I am sure, and I am not defending oppression. But a country besieged by a neighbour who already attempted an invasion once, has to be on edge and alert.

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I think most refugees from communism are just that. People who don't wish to live under communism. Why are they shot regardless?

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I agree with you. But it's not like Capitalism would allow an internal 'Communist Society' either.

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And anyway, most communists haven't been all that successful at overthrowing democracies, so why would we figure that a few democracies would be successful at overthrowing a communist state?

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Again, don't confuse the coat with the people (government) inside it. There's no true communism. Despotism isn't communism.

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I don't mean by running roughshod over it with tanks, or raining down missiles.

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Umm... May I ask how old you are? For some reason I have the feeling that you don't realize that that is EXACTLY what the US has been doing for decades, in order to keep nations from exercising their own will in shaping their own destiny "not" in the image of Capitalism. In Cuba it didn't work, and therefore the economic blockade to distort the true economic power and picture Cuba could achieve if left unhindered.

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I mean, how would a few people leaving a communist country somehow overthrow it from outside??

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The issue isn't 'from outside', though there is plenty of propaganda being hurled at Cuba over the airwaves, from Miami. These 'dissidents' are financed via USAID and others in order to overthrow the cuban government from the inside. What an insult to a sovereign country to have another country pass laws interfering in their nations affairs, as the US keeps doing. If they'd create a "lets' change the Canadian Government Act" in Congress, Canadians would be outraged. Yet that's what they constantly do in regards to Cuba, as if Cuba were some sort of dependency or colony of the US.

[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: Red Albertan ]

[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: Red Albertan ]

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also revealing of the misery and desperation created by the Castro regime is Cuba's suicide rate, which reached 24 per thousand in 1986- making it double Latin America's average, making it triple Cuba's pre-Castro rate, making Cuban women the most suicidal in the world, and making death by suicide the primary cause of death for Cubans aged 15-48. At that point the Cuban government ceased publishing the statistics on the self-slaughter. The figures became state secrets. The implications seem to horrify even the government.

In 1958 Cuba had a higher standard of living than any Latin American country and half of Europe. I'll quote a UNESCO report from 1957: "One feature of the Cuban social structure is a large middle class. Cuban workers are more unionized (proportional to the population)than U.S. workers... the average wage for an 8 hour day in Cuba 1957 is higher than for workers in Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany. Cuban labor receives 66.6 per cent of gross national income. In the U.S. the figure is 68 per cent. 44 per cent of Cubans were covered by Social legislation, that's a higher percentage then in the U.S. at the time."

In 1958 Cubans had the 3rd highest protein consumption in the hemisphere. But in 1962 Castro's government introduced ration cards that persist to this day. While comparing a Cubans' daily rations as mandated by Castro's government to the daily rations of Cubans slaves as mandated by the Spanish King in 1842, an intrepid Cuban exile uncovered this fascinating info:

Food Ration in 1842 for slaves in Cuba: Castro Gov. Ration since 1962

meat, chicken, fish--8 oz 2 oz.

Rice-- 4 oz. 3 oz

Starches-- 16 oz. 6.5 oz

Beans 4 oz. 1 oz.

The half-starved slaves on the ship Amistad ate better than Elian Gonzalez does now. Yet Eleanor Cliff told us on in her column and again on the McLaughlin Group that: "To be a poor child in Cuba may be better than being a poor child in the U.S."

The Soviets ended up pumping some $130 billion into Cuba. That's ten Marshall plans, and pumped-- not into a war-ravaged continent of 300 million-- but into an island of 7-9 million. Yet the ration cards persist to this day

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Promptly upon entering Havana on January 8, 1959 Fidel Castro abolished Habeas Corpus and appointed Che Guevara his main executioner. "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary," The Argentine Ernesto "Che" Guevara declared. "These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon (the execution wall)"

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