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Author Topic: Zimbabwe collapse in six months?
Doug
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posted 15 June 2007 04:57 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Zimbabwe will collapse within six months, possibly leading to a state of emergency, says a leaked briefing report for aid workers in the country.

Rampant inflation will mean shops and services can no longer function and people would resort to barter, it said.

"The memorandum is talking about a situation where there is no functioning government or a total breakdown," an unnamed aid worker told the UK Times.

Zimbabwe's inflation is already 3,714% - the highest rate in the world.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6751671.stm

Certainly it's hard to see how that can continue for very long.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 June 2007 07:13 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Share prices outpace even inflation in Zimbabwe

quote:
London - In Zimbabwe, about the only thing faster than the country's annual inflation rate is the percentage gain in its benchmark stock market index in the past year.

The nation's industrials index has increased close to 39 000 percent in the past 12 months. The value of the index, composed of 77 companies, has doubled in the past two weeks. ...

"Last year, investors of the country suddenly understood that the only logical investment was the stock market,'' Gartman wrote in his newsletter this week.

"Debt was out, land might be taken from you by the government, but equity in the nation's viable businesses was the least likely place for the government to expropriate.''

On May 29, trade and industry minister Obert Mpofu said Zimbabwe might force foreign-owned companies to sell 51 percent of their shares to black citizens. This week, minister of mines Amos Midzi told a conference in Namibia that Zimbabwe planned to increase local control of mining resources


Sounds like they're treating rich white people badly. Zimbabwe and surrounding countries also need help with the AIDS epidemic plaguing Sub-Sharan and South Africa.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 08:20 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's time for Mugabe to go. And it's time for him to be replaced by a Zimbabwean government that is genuinely democratic and genuinely socialist.

I'm not holding my breath on the possibility of the US and the UK allowing the second part. They'll insist on making it a right-wing privatization regime, which will end up being worse.

Mugabe must go, and the West has a moral obligation not to take advantage of his departure.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 16 June 2007 08:42 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ken Burch,

How much hope do you hold out that it is possible for a good enough leader to come along?I wouldn't want to be president of Zimbabwe. It's now a real difficult job. Unlike, say, Prime minister of Canada.


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 08:50 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I never hold out hope for great leaders anywhere. My hope is always that the people will be able to make the losers who end up being the leaders to do great things in spite of themselves. Like the people of the U.S. made Lyndon Johnson end legal segregation or made Congress stop funding the war in Vietnam.

That's what being on the Left means, if you really take it seriously.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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500_Apples
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posted 16 June 2007 08:53 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
I never hold out hope for great leaders anywhere. My hope is always that the people will be able to make the losers who end up being the leaders to do great things in spite of themselves. Like the people of the U.S. made Lyndon Johnson end legal segregation or made Congress stop funding the war in Vietnam.

That's what being on the Left means, if you really take it seriously.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


1) I admire your hope.
2) I disagree about LBJ being a loser. He was wrong on Vietnam, yes, but right on many other things. We can start a new thread on it if you wish.
3) I'm on the center for now. I don't take it too seriously


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 09:10 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LBJ was great on civil rights. He gave up on the War on Poverty as soon as he started it, though, leaving all the right-wing attacks unchallenged. This was the real reason the U.S. presidential turned against social programs, not that "they failed", since they were never really given a chance and they were too underfunded and limited to succeed.

And not only did LBJ refuse to listen to reason on Vietnam, he refused to go public with the proof he had, in the last weeks of the 1968 campaign, that the Nixon campaign had interfered with the Paris Peace Talks in order to make sure there wouldn't be a peace settlement before the election. In my view, Johnson did this because he wanted to make sure that the Democrats lost the White House as punishment for dumping him.

So yes, good on civil rights, but otherwise a bully and a coward and a loser. The man had too many limitations he couldn't overcome, and he was too scarred by the 50's Red Scare to avoid escalating a war that was solely about proving Democrats WEREN'T "Soft on Communism".


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 09:21 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Back on the thread, I do hope the Zimbabwean people get a better leader than Mugabe. He's turned into a bitter, half-crazed and fundamentally inhumane old bastard. And no, this isn't because he's "frustrated" with the pace of land reform. That doesn't explain his homophobia, that doesn't explain or justify beating political opponents in the streets(a tactic that does not serve the fully legitimate land redistribution cause in the slightest) or the silencing of all independent media.

None of the above has anything to do with the effort to build a just society in Zimbabwe. It's just a spiteful, life-hating old psychopath lashing out at the world for no real reason.

Mugabe should go.

And the West should do the honorable thing and NOT force the Zimbabwean people into "free markets" and privatization when the whole neoliberal project has been a failure everywhere it's been tried. Zimbabwe needs freedom, but not greater inequality and foreign control of resources.

The West has no right to do in Zimbabwe what it forced the people of Eastern Europe to accept after 1989.

Democracy, yes. Free speech, yes. Capitalism, no.

Is that so difficult?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bobolink
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posted 16 June 2007 09:36 AM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One should remember that Mugabe is a Stalinist. That explains a lot.
From: Stirling, ON | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 02:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Didn't Stalin expire seven or eight years after Hitler ?.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 03:16 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bobolink:
One should remember that Mugabe is a Stalinist. That explains a lot.

Actually, he wasn't. If Mugabe had been a Stalinist, he'd have started mass executions as soon as he took power. Also, he'd have immediately closed the borders, immediately imposed a state of emergency and a total crackdown on dissent(rather than waiting over twenty years after taking power) and would never have bothered holding free multiparty elections, as the man did for many years.

Mugabe has now become a tyrant, but he cannot be accurately called a Stalinist. A nationalist strongman, yes, but not a Stalinist.

And really, Cold War terminology serves no purpose in discussing this particular country.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 03:34 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It was like Adolf Hitler corporate-friendly clique who committed deliberate and methodical mass murder of tens of millions. Stalin also had a bureaucratic chain of command who were all willing participants, and who some even made decisions on their own.

Saddam Hussein was a self-styled Stalinist. And he was a CIA point man in Baghdad for many years.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 03:46 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Weirdly, Saddam was a self-styled Stalinist who had a particular fondness for killing Iraqi Communists.

Of course, then again, Stalin had a particular fondness for killing SOVIET Communists (and also for sending German Communist exiles back to be murdered by the Reich) so there's no accounting, I guess.

Btw, Fidel, I've started a new thread on another post-dictatorial transition here:

http://tinyurl.com/384r53

Hope to see you there.

[ 16 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 04:00 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They were likely spies in his mind. He was very paranoid, Stalin. The Munich appeasement was proof enough for him that the west plotting fascist aggression against Russia part two.

Of course, Stalin was impressed with Hitler's crackdown on the socialist wing of the party. Stalin read Mein Kampf, and he meticulously underlined the juiciest references to Bolsheviks and Jews.

Hitler sent a cameraman with Ribbentropp to photograph Stalin. He wanted to know if he had Aryan or Jewish earlobes. Stalin told Molotov to find out if and how many battalions were in Switzerland and Romania.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 04:31 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Aryan or Jewish EARLOBES"?
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 04:45 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
"Aryan or Jewish EARLOBES"?

That's what the American History Channel documentary said about the meeting. Hitler wanted to know more about who he was dealing with. Stalin had a copy of Mein Kampf and had been studying it for several years leading up to barbarossa. Of course, so did democratic western world leaders have the advantage of knowing Hitler's mind through Mein Kamf. The Nazis drove Ford and GM trucks all over Europe.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 16 June 2007 04:59 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And, of course, Hitler had actually plagiarized much of MEIN KAMPF from Henry Ford's THE INTERNATIONAL JEW.

Does this mean the "A" in "Model A" stood for "Aryan"?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 June 2007 07:01 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The industrialists referred to WWII as "a good war" for many years after.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 16 June 2007 07:27 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The industrialists referred to WWII as "a good war" for many years after.

yeah they had good reasons for that.

WWII has transformed average-size amateurish US military into an overfed monster, with bases on every continent.

And to think that US army' biggest show of force in the Depression years was to rush tanks on streets of Washington in order to disperse unemployed protesters.


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 16 June 2007 09:56 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Specifically unemployed veterans, denied their promised benefits

And it wasnt even average sized, it was like 17th in the list of army sizes


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Geneva
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posted 17 June 2007 02:09 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
wasn't this thread on the collapse of Zimbabwe ??
From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 June 2007 06:28 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ya, it only took 70 years for the Soviet economy to "collapse all on its own." What's taking Zimbabwe so long ?.

Didn't Zimbabwe just get rid of an oppressive white racist government that kept the black majority poor and illiterate not so long ago ?. What's taking them so long to bounce back ... to the way it was and better ?. What's the baseline for comparison here, Botswana?. It's not like they're suffering through an AIDS crisis or anything. Let's heap blame on Mugabe for global warming while we're at it, Shirley. Come on John we've gotta get on with the film show!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 17 June 2007 09:32 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I wasn't against the death penalty, i'd say that Mugabe ought to be thrown into a vat of sulphuric acid for his crimes against humanity. He is just another Idi Amin.
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Fidel
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posted 17 June 2007 09:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Idi "the strangler" Amin was hand-picked by the British to replace the democratically-elected Ugandan government of 1971 by military coup.

Ian Smith of Rhodesia(now Zimbabwe since 1979) was also backed by the west and was probably more the rotten sonofabitch that Idi Amin was. Smith, too, was notorious for his concentration camps.

As far as I can tell, neither the U.S. or Brits are running guns or aid money to Mugabe.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 March 2008 06:57 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nine months later, not only has Zimbabwe not "collapsed", but the British government feels things are going so well, it is going to deport 500 Zimbabweans back home:

quote:
The UK government has defended its decision to resume the deportation of failed asylum-seekers to Zimbabwe.

Some 500 Zimbabweans have been sent letters urging them to return voluntarily or face expulsion.

A campaigner told the BBC it was curious that the UK condemned human rights abuses in Zimbabwe and yet tried to force people to return there.


Curious?

I don't think so.

The British want White Power back in Zimbabwe. They don't want Black Zimbabweans back in Britain.

Smell the coffee, o ye faithful subjects of Her Majesty.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 17 March 2008 07:11 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm always cautious about penning an aplogia for Mugabe but sanctions are likely the leading cause of inflation.

It's a bit much for the Western powers to render Zimbabwe's economy a shambles and then complain about fiscal competence.

This has been done before: Kissinger and Nixon promised to "make the economy scream" under Allende. The result was hyperinflation and everyone blamed Allende. The Clinton policy towards Iraq was sanctions the result was hyperinflation and Bush used this as evidence of Hussein's dangerous incompetence.


From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 March 2008 10:03 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And don't forget hyperinflationary Germany of 1923. Our appointed central bankers and sometimes former bond salesmen slotted as ministers of finance have that bogeyman to point to as their job security and reason for abandoning a federal mandate to fend off unemployment first and foremost - even though Canada is in no danger whatsoever of losing a world war and falling into arears on war reparations followed by French military occupation of our industrial basin and ensuing civil war. But we should presume it could happen exactly like that.

"Who knows what has come from the galaxy? Who knows what lurks in the sky? Beyond God. Watch those around you. For who knows what today, tonight, or tomorrow will bring." John Carpenter's, The Thing

[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 18 March 2008 07:34 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mercy:
I'm always cautious about penning an aplogia for Mugabe but sanctions are likely the leading cause of inflation.

It's a bit much for the Western powers to render Zimbabwe's economy a shambles and then complain about fiscal competence.


The sanctions don't cover enough of the economy to do much as they're targeted toward the personal transactions of people in the government.

See here:
http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/zimbabwe/zimb.pdf
http://livingzimbabwe.blogspot.com/2007/12/sanctions-on-zimbabwe.html

Sanctions didn't make the Bank of Zimbabwe start printing money like it was going out of style. That started out as a political decision made because the government didn't have enough cash to make payments to veterans. That was also the impetus for the horribly implemented program of land reform that has left Zimbabwe's agricultural economy a shambles.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jSXvziAzXJ-pHYgFkjvzftt15SDw


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 18 March 2008 08:29 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Didn't Zimbabwe just get rid of an oppressive white racist government that kept the black majority poor and illiterate not so long ago ?. What's taking them so long to bounce back ... to the way it was and better ?. What's the baseline for comparison here, Botswana?.

Botswana wouldn't actually be bad for comparison, except like Alberta here, they've cheated a bit. They have diamond mines.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 March 2008 08:42 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Anti-Apartheid Movement covered a number of states in Southern Africa. These included South Africa itself and Zimbabwe, Namibia, etc.. However, Botswana was never a focus or target of the Anti-Apartheid Movement. This is a huge difference between Zimbabwe and Botswana in their respective histories.

I think there are even a few remarks in Wikipedia about attacks by the white minority regime in Rhodesia (which became Zimbabwe) against Botswana.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 18 March 2008 10:22 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Zimbabwe has aided Mozambique in its fight against the fascist counter insurgency of RENAMO in recent years.

Zimbabwe has provided military assistance for SWAPO’s liberation struggle in Namibia.

Zimbabwe has been aiding the Congo to secure its borders against CIA backed incursions These are the real crimes of Zimbabwe besides taking land from rich white colonials. Western imperialists will tend to punish all good deeds with sanctions and propaganda.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Elysium
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posted 21 March 2008 01:31 PM      Profile for Elysium     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:

Botswana wouldn't actually be bad for comparison, except like Alberta here, they've cheated a bit. They have diamond mines.


And Zimbabwe is known for its lucrative gold and platinum mines. They're pretty much on the same level when it comes to natural resources.


From: Montréal | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 21 March 2008 01:56 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
Sanctions didn't make the Bank of Zimbabwe start printing money like it was going out of style. That started out as a political decision made because the government didn't have enough cash to make payments to veterans. [/URL]
An why didn't they have enough money to pay veterans? Because of sanctions.

The US sanctions are far more effective then you acknowledge. Tawanda Hodona, a sharp critic of Mugabe, wrote about this recently:

quote:
Zimbabwe’s economic woes are the direct result of a concerted and systematic campaign to effect regime change through an economic implosion.

Zimbabwe has a critical shortage of foreign currency. However for the past four years or so, Zimbabwe has been unable to obtain finance or credit facilities from international lenders to inject into the economy. And this is a direct consequence of a sanctions regime imposed against the Zimbabwe by particularly the US, and the EU.

That Mugabe is an evil, brutal, dictator that needs to be removed from office is not in doubt. It is however immoral to cause the removal of Mugabe from office by precipitating the collapse of a developing, only recently independent, now famine-ravished African country through an economic sanctions regime.

The US introduced economic sanctions on Zimbabwe through the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act, 2001. (ZIDERA) Through this enactment Zimbabwe’s access to finance and credit facilities was effectively incinerated.

ZIDERA empowers the US to use its voting rights and influence (as the main donor) in multilateral lending agencies, such as the IMF, World Bank, and the African Development Bank to veto any applications by Zimbabwe for finance, credit facilities, loan rescheduling, and international debt cancellation...

Simply put, owing to the size of the US vote and influence in these institutions, neither the IMF, World Bank nor the African Development Bank will lend to Zimbabwe, or offer it credit facilities. Therefore, needless to say, as a direct result of the US 2001 Act, Zimbabwe’s relationship with these multilateral lending agencies was immediately and severely affected.

In addition, Zimbabwe’s ability to reschedule its loan payments and to apply for debt cancellations in times of severe financial crisis was severely affected.

And once the IMF and World Bank stopped doing business with Zimbabwe, this had an immediate and adverse impact on Zimbabwe’s credit and investment rating. And with a drop in investment rating went the dream of low cost capital on the international markets.

ZIDERA was a masterstroke. At the stroke of a pen, Zimbabwe’s access to international credit markets was blocked. And relying purely on barter trade, and trade, mining, agricultural concessions, and on exports-generated foreign currency, Zimbabwe’s economy has been slowly but surely asphyxiated.

And the consequent foreign currency crisis has resulted in the continued devaluation of the domestic currency, rapid inflation, and all else that has manifested itself in the current Zimbabwe economic crisis.



From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 March 2008 03:59 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder what loud pitched screams would emanate from the U.S. if we demanded per barrel oil royalties and green taxes at levels which socialist Norway, Venezuela and Russia extract from big energy companies? There would be no end to the kicking and screaming, we can be sure.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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