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Ladies Against Feminism was founded by Mrs. Lydia Sherman and Mrs. Jennie Chancey in 2002 as a way to publish thoughtful, biblical responses to feminism and to encourage other women in their God-given roles. LAF is under the oversight of Stanley Sherman, minister of the Lancaster Church of Christ in Junction City, Oregon.

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Ooopie, same link as audras... Cross posting.

[ 12 May 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

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We ladies need to reassess our motives in what we do. All that we do—from the housewife who is so occupied with her children that her husband goes to work with buttons missing off of his shirt, to the newly-married career woman who feeds her man on frozen dinners and take-out food. We were created by God to be a helper suitable. In other words, we are designed by God to be precisely what that man—that we have vowed before Him to love, honour, cherish and obey—needs. Such an understanding of the glowing realities beneath the surface of life exalts tasks like ironing his pants and packing his lunch and making his home beautiful to a place of honour, as far removed from the idea of subservience as the sacred from the profane.

I think that it is a shame that the old-fashioned custom of a wife being called by her husband’s name has gone by the wayside. What a symbol of pride and possessiveness—I am his! Mrs. Philip Ivester—he has given me his name, in very much the same way as our Lord has given us His. We are Christians—"little Christs"—not just people who believe in Him, but people who belong to Him. We don’t lose our identity in assuming such a handle; we accept it gratefully, joyously, knowing the new life within us for which it stands.

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From "I am a Stay-at-Home Wife" by Lanier Ivester.

What makes me laugh (but not really...) is that very often these ladies have suffered from some kind of depression because of their forced confinement in the home with little kids and no financial or social recognition for their work, and God sends them a mission: they wrangle themselves into a (paid) ministry in which they tell other women how they can be fulfilled - at home.

Edited to add: Sadly kurichina, the text you posted is neither satire nor parody.

[ 12 May 2005: Message edited by: brebis noire ]

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No matter how wonderful a woman she might be, she has never been a godly man.

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We were created by God to be a helper suitable. In other words, we are designed by God to be precisely what that man—that we have vowed before Him to love, honour, cherish and obey—needs. Such an understanding of the glowing realities beneath the surface of life exalts tasks like ironing his pants and packing his lunch and making his home beautiful to a place of honour, as far removed from the idea of subservience as the sacred from the profane.

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She lost me on "ironing his pants." She definitely lost me there.

I looked at a couple of other essays (one on using a cast-iron pan), and I must say that, if you scrape away a lot of the cloying sentimentality and all the religiosity, some of what they are assembling is, of course, useful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

then we have...

serve + (laf)

ser(laf)ve

s(laf)ve

s(la)ve

slave.

ER = equal rights
LA = ladies against feminism

then...

s_ER_ve + (LA) - (ER)

= s_(ER-ER)_(LA)_ve
= s_(LA)_ve
= s_la_ve
= slave.

They're making me not respect them and THEY'RE WOMEN!

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With our busy households, computer time is limited, but we'll post new articles to LAF as often as we can. :-)

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They are serious.

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Yes, they are serious as are a number of groups.

http://www.pricelesswoman.com/
http://proverbs31.gospelcom.net/woman.htm
http://www.geocities.com/lavenia01/
http://www.gty.org/index/john_article.php?id=43
http://www.creativeladiesministry.com/pearlsdev.html

That's just a very small sample. Without question some of it is more extreme and inflammatory. But It's a much larger movement than most people recognize. In Edmonton they are having a marriage conference weekend with a focus on traditional roles. That same weekend Kings College is hosting a teenage girl slumber party weekend that models the same belief system for adolescent girls. It's a much more vast movement than persons outside of that circle realize.

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Don't these people have anyone to figure out acronyms for them? Reminds me of CRAP. Also love the typography -- script for 'ladies against' and typewriter (?) style for 'feminism'.

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That did make me laugh. Good point.

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The thing that I find intriguing is that, while working at a job outside the home is totally out of the question, a home-based business doesn't seem to be -- one of the site contributors apparently creates and sells dress patterns in styles from previous eras. I work out of a home office, but there are times that it's not exactly compatible with focused child care. I wonder how they work that out.

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I find that intriguing and inconsistent as well.

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very often these ladies have suffered from some kind of depression because of their forced confinement in the home with little kids and no financial or social recognition for their work, and God sends them a mission: they wrangle themselves into a (paid) ministry in which they tell other women how they can be fulfilled - at home.

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Interestingly I have researched this issue a bit and I understand that LDS women have a much higher rate of depression. I've not seen a general overview of that issue with Christian women. It would be hard to have controls in place though for a number of reasons. My own personal view is that women who belong to H&W gospel movements are BOUND to have a higher rate of depression.

I do think that there is much much social recognition for homemaking in fundamental christian circles.

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I honour traditional women's culture. I do. But I resent these women's assumptions that they own it and feminists have proven themselves unworthy of it, or something.

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I agree that the idea of suggesting that there is only one way of thinking about a woman's role is offensive. Everyone has to find their own path.

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There were a lot of these folks where I grew up. It breaks my heart - I knew a girl in high school from one of those families that was clearly straining to escape into the city, away from that world.

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[ 12 May 2005: Message edited by: Jumble ]

Here is Fragonard's portrait of Diderot:

This one: [IMG]Jeune femme qui lit/La liseuse[/IMG]

[ 13 May 2005: Message edited by: Jumble ]

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Originally posted by kurichina:
In other words, we are designed by God to be precisely what that man—that we have vowed before Him to love, honour, cherish and obey—needs. Such an understanding of the glowing realities beneath the surface of life exalts tasks like ironing his pants and packing his lunch and making his home beautiful to a place of honour, as far removed from the idea of subservience as the sacred from the profane.

I think that it is a shame that the old-fashioned custom of a wife being called by her husband’s name has gone by the wayside. What a symbol of pride and possessiveness—I am his! Mrs. Philip Ivester—he has given me his name,
[/QB]

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Originally posted by Hailey:
My goodness, where did you grow up? I grew up very traditionally and amongst other like-minded people and I haven't encountered anyone who thinks they should be called by their husband's name. If someone called me Ryan I'd think they had a cognitive disability.

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I think that was relatively common at one time, for a woman to be called by her husband's name. If you read the Anne of Green Gables series, women are constantly being referred to by "Mrs. Fred" and the like. "Miss Cornelia" was constantly referred to as "Mrs. Marshall Elliott" or "Mrs. Marshall" by Anne's helper, Susan, throughout the last three books in the series.

It wouldn't surprise me that these advocates of a simpler time (and simpler minds, it would seem) would like the idea of women being identified by their husbands or fathers.

Also, The Dude - LAW was the first thing I thought about when I saw this thread! Unfortunately, I couldn't remember the exact name of it. Thanks for the link!

[ 15 May 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Tried to write like three different avenues of approach, while being civil and could not achieve it.

They want women back in the kitchen. I heard with my own ears Ms Steven's the Minister for Women say that the reason the gov't cut services to women's centres is that they wouldn't abandon the feminist delivery model. Of course, they would have anyway, because this is part and parcel of the neo-con ideology.

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Originally posted by Jumble:
Browsing through their Web site is like taking a walk back in time. Who wants to go back to the kind of brain-washing young girls and boys were subjected to?

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This is very interesting... Do you think that young girls and boys are not being brain-washed today? James Tooley wrote a book called The Mis-Education of Women. The point of that book is that girls are being brain-washed in schools today. They are being sold a false bill of goods. You can read a quick review of the book on the amazon website.

Some of you came up with cute ways to change LAF to slave. Very amusing. And not untrue. But the thing is that we are all slaves. Who or what are you a slave to? I love this quote from the Bible:

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Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

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Lanier Ivester and women like her are slaves of God. It is in service to their Master that they decide to be "Stay-at-Home-Wives." Why do you decide to do what you are doing? Who are you serving? We are all slaves to someone or something.

Here is another quote I love from the Bible:

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But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

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We are all slaves to someone or something.

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I do take offense that women are done a disservice by being counseled into careers instead of housekeeping and childrearing early on. I am one of those women who would have been miserable as a "helpmeet", although I am an excellent partner and mother. Some women have alpha personalities, and God made them that way for a reason.

Back when I belonged to a fundamentalist church, the one question that nobody could ever find a sufficient answer for was how, if a woman finds that she is much more sensible, talented and intelligent than her [male] life partner, it makes any sense at all for him to lead? Sorry, but just having a penis isn't ever going to be enough to lead me.

Better yet, find me an equal and I'm happy to pull the load in tandem.

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Why do you decide to do what you are doing?

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Now that is an interesting question. I'm a filmmaker, a storyteller of sorts. Why do I do it? Not because I was told to. Not because it is easy. I've even tried walking away from it, but it followed me, events in my life have led me back to it. I can only conclude that it's what I am meant to do. And so I embrace it, and am a much better person for having done so.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:

Um, speak for yourself. And please keep your propaganda to yourself as well.

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This is the perfect example of the sort of exquisite liberal tolerance and open-mindedness that just makes my day Black Sheep! I thank you!

Anne Cameron, would you be willing to explain what you mean?

Zoot, your question is an excellent one. As it happens, the Bible cautions people about becoming unequally yoked.

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Originally posted by Genevieve:
This is the perfect example of the sort of exquisite liberal tolerance and open-mindedness that just makes my day Black Sheep! I thank you!

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But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

It is from Joshua chapter 24, verse 15.

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Since you're in New Zealand, Genevieve, you might not be aware that that verse became the title of one of the great classics of Canadian literature, Sinclair Ross's As for Me and My House (1941).

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What makes me laugh (but not really...) is that very often these ladies have suffered from some kind of depression because of their forced confinement in the home with little kids and no financial or social recognition for their work, and God sends them a mission: they wrangle themselves into a (paid) ministry in which they tell other women how they can be fulfilled - at home.

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Is that your own surmising? I am not aware of a vast array of fundamentalist Christian women who stay at home and are being treated for depression.

I think most women who stay at home in that community receive much social recognition.

I think the ministry is more of a fellowship in a world where most mothers have at least part time employment outside of the home. My own anecdotal experience is that when women who feel that their roles aren't valued in larger society require that supportive network. Why on earth fundamentalist women are looking for social recognition outside of their own circle I have no idea but some do.

Why do you see staying at home as "forced confinement?"

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I honour traditional women's culture. I do. But I resent these women's assumptions that they own it and feminists have proven themselves unworthy of it, or something.

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The article has these overtones so that's very fair.

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Back when I belonged to a fundamentalist church, the one question that nobody could ever find a sufficient answer for was how, if a woman finds that she is much more sensible, talented and intelligent than her [male] life partner, it makes any sense at all for him to lead?

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May I ask what denomination zoot or is that personal?

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Um, speak for yourself. And please keep your propaganda to yourself as well.

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As for women in fundamentalist circles who suffer from depression, obviously there are no methodical studies to measure that. If you want to learn everything through scientific studies, you're not going to get very far, IMHO. I'm basing my statement on personal contacts with women who have been oppressed by patriarchally-minded husbands; women who've had too many babies to the detriment of their physical and emotional health; and books I've read where women share their struggles with depression and feelings of being closed in - these are Christian books, by the way, not ones written by women who have de-converted. Aside from that, my impressions as I moved through different evangelical circles is that low-grade depression and a sense of inadequacy is pretty common and not often treated in women. However, how depression rates would compare to non-evangelical women is unknown to me, and I'm willing to admit that they may be similar. But for a movement that offers salvation, joy, peace and personal fulfillment, it certainly doesn't deliver, at least not for women. And that's my final answer.

[ 31 May 2005: Message edited by: brebis noire ]

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Sorry, Hailey, but contrary to your posts, Genevieve's have definite propagandistic undertones, and I don't think I'm the only one who read them.

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Ok. I don't read them but others do so I could be missing something.

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I feel more free than I ever have - especially in view of how the whole movement is becoming increasingly politicized. When people insinuate that my newfound intellectual and spiritual freedom is an illusion, please understand that I'm offended.

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Honestly and I say this without judgement beyond any spiritual issues I would just so sad if I left the church. They are like family and I think that's true for most evangelical or fundamentalist settings. That had to be an incredibly tough thing despite the fact that you feel that the outcome was pretty good for yourself.

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As for women in fundamentalist circles who suffer from depression, obviously, there are no methodical studies to measure that. I'm basing my statement on personal contacts with women who have been oppressed by patriarchally-minded husbands, women who have had too many babies to the detriment of their physical and emotional health, and books I've read where women from the movement share their struggles with depression and feelings of being closed in - these are Christian books, by the way - not ones written by women who have abandoned the movement

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Fair enough. I think that one of the difficulties is that sometimes people with different visions marry. That just sets everyone up for unhappiness because the lifestyle is one that is not attractive to everyone. I would expect a woman who didn't want that for her life would be depressed.

A woman who married into my family who is not a Christian and who married one of the men in our family that wasn't looking for a traditional marriage at all I can tell feels decidedly uncomfortable about the whole thing. I remember for her bridal shower a person who assumed she was a Christian because she was marrying into our family bought her Martha Peace's books and it was an uncomfortable thing for everyone.

No marriage is going to work if you are not united on such core issues.

Most families that I know that believe in large families it's very much a female-led decision so that's interesting that we've had different experiences.

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But for a movement that offers salvation, joy, peace and personal fulfillment, it certainly doesn't deliver, at least not for women. And that's my final answer.

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Well, it might not have for you or for other women that you know. If your happiness is outside of those settings and you are content then i don't think anyone should "argue you back into the church" that being said it has offered me joy, peace, and fulfillment as it has my sisters, mom, and most women I know.

[ 31 May 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

Feminism is a basic Christian tenet. When Jesus went to the well he spoke to the women. This at a time when a proper Jew, particularly a rabbi, spoke to no women except his wife, his mother and his daughters. And some of the stricter ones spoke only to their wives.

When Jesus went to the well he knew the women would be there; women gathered the water, men did not go to the well. Thus YOUR Lord and Saviour went out of his way and broke tradition when he went to the well and spoke to the women. He did not gossip with the women, he did not flirt with the women, he spoke to the women and discussed religion with them. As equals. In the same way he had done similar sessions with men. He did not tell them they should run home and immediately get pregnant. He discussed theological matters with them and did it as an EQUAL.

In the Old Testament we are told "man and woman He created in His Own Image"...

If you're going to harangue us will you please FOR CHRIST'S OWN SWEET SAKE get the bone out of your throat, the mote out of your eye and stop taking stuff out of context.

Yea, verily thee unto thou! saith the prophet

As for your comparison of the chain of command in military structure: the Prince of Peace clearly said we should beat our swords into plowshares.

God Herself said THOU SHALT NOT KILL. How fekkin plain can She make it? She didn't say thou shalt not kill unless George Bush tells you to, she didn't say Thou shalt not kill people with white skin, She didn't say Thou shalt not kill except when you think you have an excuse. She said THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

What, you want it in flaming letters across the sky? You want Her to set your bush on fire?

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May I ask what denomination zoot or is that personal?

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Not at all, Hailey. Apostolic, and we spent quite a lot of time at my BIL's church, which was Pentecostal.

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That was also an excellent point that is not a man's anatomy which qualifies him to lead. When God created the world He established a chain of command (compare it to a military chain of command if you like). In this chain of command God gave the husband the role of leader. And in Jesus, He gave husbands the role model for leadership: servant leadership. If we try to usurp authority the consequences are heinous, just like in the military if the chain of command is not followed...it wreaks havoc.

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Not necessarily, if you are well-matched and are able to be true to your natures.

And really, your answer is contradictory -- man is put in charge of the chain of command, okay, but on what basis? Because he is a man. What is the difference between men and women? The bits between the legs. Therefore, men are in charge by virtue of penile possession. It IS, in fact, based on anatomy.

I don't buy that. I will hide my light under a bushel for no man.

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And nowadays society is trying to lead us into the wilderness with its androgenous view of reality. But going deeper into the wilderness is not what is going to help. We need to get back on the trail (ie we need to embrace the roles God has given us instead of continuing to try to buck the system).

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But you see, I'm not bucking a system. I'm simply leading the life I was meant to lead. Entering into a marriage of strictly defined gender roles would be me bucking what I am. A giraffe can't be a zebra, whether it thinks it wants to or not.

You do what works for you, and let me and the rest of the feminists on the forum do what works for us.

Edited to add: Thanks for that post, anne. Well said.

[ 31 May 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

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That was also an excellent point that is not a man's anatomy which qualifies him to lead. When God created the world He established a chain of command (compare it to a military chain of command if you like). In this chain of command God gave the husband the role of leader. And in Jesus, He gave husbands the role model for leadership: servant leadership. If we try to usurp authority the consequences are heinous, just like in the military if the chain of command is not followed...it wreaks havoc.

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Originally posted by Hailey:

Well, it might not have for you or for other women that you know. If your happiness is outside of those settings and you are content then i don't think anyone should "argue you back into the church" that being said it has offered me joy, peace, and fulfillment as it has my sisters, mom, and most women I know.

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I hear what you're saying, Hailey, and I don't want to give the impression that I'm so frustrated with evangelicalism and newly narrow-minded that I don't recognize that many women are in fact content in the movement. I know several who are, in addition to the ones who appear depressed or closed-in.

One thing I find interesting about your experience is your description of evangelicalism as a 'lifestyle' or a 'choice' or 'something that doesn't work for everyone.' I guess things must surely evolve over time, because with Protestant evangelical Christianity, the traditional goal was to convert others to the movement (announcing the Good News, making disciples, yadda yadda) - it's not a choice in the sense that you're predestined and chosen by God - and that choice should necessarily be everybody's choice, once they realize the stakes involved. The carrot: eternal life; the stick: eternal damnation.

If what you are describing as a mindset represents what evangelicalism is becoming in Canada, then on one hand, it's a psychologically mild version of its traditional self, and on the other, maybe it's losing sight of the whole idea that this life doesn't matter much in the eternal scheme of things so it's better to focus on the here and now.

[ 31 May 2005: Message edited by: brebis noire ]

Her approach and her deep personal honest allow me to actually THINK about what she is saying; and if I wind up deciding no thank you I don't feel she's going to mentally or emotionally consign me to the flames of hell for eternity.

Genevieve, on the other hand just manages to piss me off!! She is too much like a couple of unscrewed wing nuts we have out here who use the Bible as a club. One used to be a teacher and school counsellor who was tanked for his right-wing views, particularly toward homosexuality. The other is (shudder) a child psychiatrist and if he doesn't foam at the mouth it has to be because he's on diuretics. The thought of a guy like that having any kind of access to a kid who is struggling with sexual and personal identity issues is enough to make even an old bat like me want to sit down and weep.

It's the holier-than-all-of-thou judgemental meanness which upsets me. I watch the teens in our small, isolated and very protective town and even THEY are often in turmoil... to think of any of them in the clutches of that kind of hate spewing looniness is chilling.

Child suicide rates are heartbreaking. And I've read many times research papers which say the number one cause of child suicide is confusion and fear around sexual identity issues. Our children prefer death to life in the society we have made.

And I suggest this kind of mean spirited nasty and tacky cow cack as vomited by the dogmatic christonazi's is a large factor in that very sad decision. They promulgate, promote and preach child abuse.

(not that I'm pre-prejudiced against them, you understand.....!!! I just grew up surrounded by them and I know where their "path" leads.)

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Apostolic,

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When God created the world He established a chain of command (compare it to a military chain of command if you like). In this chain of command God gave the husband the role of leader. And in Jesus, He gave husbands the role model for leadership: servant leadership. If we try to usurp authority the consequences are heinous, just like in the military if the chain of command is not followed...it wreaks havoc.

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I actually would have to ask you to re-consider the analogy with the military. In the military the relationships are often frought with abuse, unquestioning deference etc. Even if you believe the male has the final say it's not a dictatorial relationship. Healthy marriages involve some sense of collaboration and teamwork even if there are traditional roles around final decision making. And you also have to remember that Jesus modelled servanthood for leadership - not "lording over someone".

And, no, Brebis evangelical Christianity takes very seriously it's desire to convert people to the faith. I wouldn't think there has been a softening at all over the years. My own personal belief though is that you can't force people to be Christians and people have to choose their path.

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Child suicide rates are heartbreaking. And I've read many times research papers which say the number one cause of child suicide is confusion and fear around sexual identity issues. Our children prefer death to life in the society we have made.

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I had always read it was aboriginal children and the life that Canadians have created for them.