[ 18 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]

Men are equipped with a sperm delivery system. Women are equipped with a system that grows, develops and delivers an infant human being. The process of arousal, excitement and orgasm is also different. Men are physiologically designed for orgasm. If a woman doesn't orgasm, she won't have any trouble getting pregnant so long as a man ejaculates inside her. It's alot more difficult for her to get pregnant when he doesn't ejculate (though not impossible).

So the problem, like the article says, is not that women don't always orgasm, but that studies from the male point of view see not always orgasming as a problem, and women are now programmed to feel inadequate if sexual activity doesn't always result in the Big O.

Big deal.

Or not. Pornography made by men for men tends to focus on the money shot. Pornography made by women for women tends to explore alot of the other aspects of sexual arousal and activity, not the eventual orgasm. Some women's porn (or erotica, if you prefer) simply provides arousing imagery without any sexual storyline or beginning-to-end sexual encounter.

In fact there is a school of thought that considered it a husbands responsibility to bring his wife to orgasm.

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The reason that an orgasm might make it more likely for a woman to become pregnant is that, during orgasm, the neck of the uterus dips down into the vagina and actually makes a sort of sucking motion, thus possibly improving the chances of sperm getting inside. There is even a little "ledge" inside the vagina where sperm can sit;

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In fact there is a school of thought that considered it a husbands responsibility to bring his wife to orgasm.

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"There has been a long history of overpathologizing women

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No kidding.

Fairly early on, the kind of sex that began to bother me was sex that turned, um, athletic, self-consciously athletic, sustainedly athletic, for reasons of goal-orientation, as RW has limned that term above.

[ 18 January 2003: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

Discovered that a (het) male friend of mine hadn't had sex in 10 years - discovered it because he was disconsolate and drank too much on the evening of that sad anniversary and blabbed it out. Because logically the same must apply to some men.

None of these people are hideous, unwashed or otherwise friendless, far from it.

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"I know they're still there, because I checked for them before going out with that jerk stockbroker Michelle set me up with last month."

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Can I relate, or what.

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Misinterpreting Tudor's efforts to sidestep the booth as discomfort with the subject of sex, Schumann targeted her for additional education.

"Some people don't like talking about sex, which is why outreach programs like ours are so vitally important," said Schumann, 19. "I told her not to be embarrassed, and that sexuality is a normal, healthy part of everyone's life.'"

"Everyone's except mine," Tudor replied when told of Schumann's remarks. "I decided to spare him that detail, though, and let him blather on about mutual respect and positive sexuality and something about a dance at the student union on the last Friday of every month."

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A Ha! Or perhaps women's sexual 'problems' are actually women and men's sexual 'problems' (in heterosexual partnerships) as... Well, need I say more?

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What s/he said.

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One thing I might add to the conjecture is that, generally speaking, women tend to be more process oriented and men tend to be more goal-oriented. And it's not just a product of socialization - it's reflected in our different physiological processes.

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Boy if what you say about Mohammed is true it sure makes one wonder how some misogynist moslems arrived at cutting off clitori so women wouldn't feel pleasure.

But back to the thread, I doubt if my partner would appreciate me presuming that women don't really want their partners to try to help them orgasim. I may be a cuddly bear but ... "if that's all there is my friend then lets keep dancing." All that other cuddling and foreplay is great and I guess would be enough but sort of like having only appetizers at supper. Interesting and satisfying but one still likes the main course at some point ( maybe for breakfast?)

Men should eat women out more often. I only know one woman who refused this and only one. Ever. Suffice to say, it is not wether or not you make love to a woman, but how ou do it. But I am afraid that I can't really go on in this vain because what I would say would be explictly pornographic.

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I think womens' biggest sexual problem is those men who think they know what womens' sexual problems or needs are. BTW, I know some men are more considerate and knowledgable than others so you guys don't need to feel this applies to you.

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I think that women have diverse sexual needs and that those needs have to be met in the individual circumstances. Making panoramic statements about women and sex is like saying all Chinese people look alike. Part of the fun of sex is discovering what is going on with the other person. My comment was intended to express the fact that sex between men and women actually has to do with the relationship between the people (all people heterosexual or otherwise.)

One person might enjoy one thing, while anoher something completely different. This is not to say that certain 'problems' (sic) may not be shared between women. I liked Skdadl's comment about 'pathologizing' women sexuality. Why confront it as a "problem" when it could be challenge or a mutual exploration?

Mutuality, is the key.

But in your comment their is the hint that I might not 'know' or somehow be blocked from 'knowing,' or that I am being presumptuous in expressing my attitude to womens sexuality. Quite the contrary, I am partner in the act, and any problems become my problems, as well. I have every right as a partner to express what I feel, right or wrong about women, based on my experience of women, and from talking to women.

And then there is this as well: Listening.

That is how understanding is developed. No?

Of course there is a level of 'not knowing' in all relationships, sexual or otherwise but all I can do is express honestly what it is that I know about myself, and express that as best I can to people I have sex with. Also, I can encourage people to do likewise, but it is the individuals responsbility to assert their needs and express themselves sexualy. However, I discourage people to think of their feelings about sex as 'problems.'

I feel this most of all about 'problems' defined within the archtypical male v. female paradigm, as I think you may have done by saying: "I think womens' biggest sexual problem is those men who think they know what womens' sexual problems or needs are..."

These are individual relationships, expressed and developed between individuals. I don't take all women to bed at once, however much I might like to fantasize about it.

[ 24 January 2003: Message edited by: Moredreads ]

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Boy if what you say about Mohammed is true it sure makes one wonder how some misogynist moslems arrived at cutting off clitori so women wouldn't feel pleasure.

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I think that's one of those tribal things that got mixed into Islam even though Islam (as far as I know) does not call for it.

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One fundamental of the Islamic law is that what is not prohibited is allowed. This makes for a great deal of tolerance in the religious law. As a result of this tolerance many pre-Islamic practices were not immediately eradicated by Islam. When such practices came to be unpopular (or unfashionable) in future centuries, the tolerance of Islamic jurisprudence was mischaracterized by those inimical to Islam as "backward." It was as if someone from a genteel class of society were to condemn America's toleration for body piercing among its young people as proof of the "barbarism" of American law. It would be wise to remember that there is a great burden of proof that Islam puts upon those who wish to prohibit a practice, and that the requirement for such proof is a strength of the Islamic law.

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From here.

"It was, and remains, a cultural, not a religious practice."

[ 24 January 2003: Message edited by: Smith ]

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...and that orgasms occurred when you succeeded in the goal of pleasuring your partner.

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While I applaud the generosity evident in wanting to "succeed in the goal of pleasuring [one's] partner", I think it's counterproductive to view orgasm as something that one partner "gives" the other. Someone might never be able to succeed at giving their partner an orgasm - some people (okay, let me say some women because I know very little about men's inability to climax) have a lot of difficulty achieving orgasm, through no fault of their partner's. Sometimes the body doesn't respond; sometimes the mind doesn't respond. And sometimes that's perfectly okay - you don't hit the jackpot every time you play Bingo but that doesn't make the game any less fun. (Fine, fine, sex is not Bingo and most of us would like to have an orgasm somewhat more frequently than we holler "Bingo!" but just work with the analogy, okay?)

[ 26 January 2003: Message edited by: butterhead ]

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Exactly, andrean - the woman is under just as much pressure to have an orgasm or else be considered "frigid".

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Which really sucks (no pun intended), frankly. I don't think "satisfied" should have to mean "orgasmic" (although it does for some people). That really puts a whole lot of pressure on a person. Well, actually on both people. If you both have fun, if you both feel satisfied, does it matter if it happens every time?

For better or worse we all bring our past with us to some degree.
Mental/emotional/spiritual/etc/etc/etc can all effect sexual interactions, it's rarely purely physical.

I agree it is about giving, and it can mean so much more when you feel deeply connected with the person giving the sensations to you. There is a trick in this though, and that is to be a good receiver you must communicate/motivate the giver.

communication is vital, can make anything so much more pleasurable.

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You agree to avoid personal insults, attacks and mischievous antagonism (otherwise known as trolling).

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Mischievous antagonism would seem to incompass your last post in this thread. And it is a really bad joke to boot.