Before your time, but it lays it all out for you.

Hope you are up to facing the ideas that run counter to your simplistic take on the subject of democracy. Actually involves some history .

quote:

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Originally posted by Kloch in the previous thread:
Again, I probably disagree with your position, but if you could articulate it a bit more honestly, we could have a fairly lively discussion. If you insist on responding with long-winded and irrelevant narratives about bomarc missiles, then I'm afraid this will be a very boring, and incomprehensible dialog.

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My post (to which you responded) was 10 lines long. Your complaint about my "long-winded" response was 18 lines long. And you accuse me of dishonesty?

Fly a Canadian and avoid that deregulation disaster going on south of the border. Your Canuck airline won't hold you hostage for courtesy items mid-flight, like $2 bucks for a shoulder pillow or $7 bucks for an aspirin.

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Cuba occupies two different positions in Babble discourse. The first is Cuba, the place. What happens there is mostly the concern of Cubans, and outside the legitimate purview of Babblers. Outside interference in this Cuba (especially by Canadians) is a area of more legitimate concern.

The other position of Cuba in Babble is that of an exemplar. Because it has a different way of handling many issues people look to it to see if there is anything to learn. In this position Cuba is fair game for Babblers.

This distinction is not always apparent in Cuba discussions.

In the context of Cuba as an exemplar it is important to describe Cuba as it is, and not Cuba as we would like it to be. Given that, consideration may be given to the issues of whether any particular thing about Cuba is something to emulated or avoided, or is a necessary component of something else about Cuba (which can then be emulated or avoided, etc.).

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Originally posted by jrootham:
This distinction is not always apparent in Cuba discussions.

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People who know nothing about Cuba and care even less grab some isolated factoid from Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International or some other liberal organization, present it as a challenge to the leftists on babble, and bingo - we have a new "debate".

It starts like this: "According to Washington-based organization Hand-wringers Without Borders, Cuban police arrested dissident José Garcia Hernandez for simply minding his own business and put him in jail for 12 years. Cuba is a dictatorial police state."

Then somebody does a quick Google and points out that Hernandez was actually caught taking cash from the US Interests Section in Havana to finance industrial sabotage and counter-revolutionary disinformation campaigns, was convicted of spying for a foreign power after a trial, and is now behind bars where he belongs.

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Originally posted by unionist:
I myself have two distinct attitudes toward Cuba (the target of subversion and aggression and interference for almost 1/2 a century) and Cuba (the socio-politico-economic system).

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quote:

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It starts like this: "According to Washington-based organization Hand-wringers Without Borders, Cuban police arrested dissident José Garcia Hernandez for simply minding his own business and put him in jail for 12 years. Cuba is a dictatorial police state."

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quote:

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Originally posted by George Victor:

Kloch, if you are up to doing some reading outside of Zak's limited field of endeavour, try C.B.Macpherson's The Real World of Democracy, fourth in the series of Massey Lectures, 1965.

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[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
But all fair observers acknowledge that the latter is strongly affected by the former. And it's the latter that gets the trolls' juices going, because they refuse to acknowledge the inter-relationship with the former.

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Those rules require conformity in the domestic political and social system of a country to the needs and dictates of international capital. In the case of Cuba, conformity to those rules would require nothing less than the restoration of market-based capitalism and the dismantling of the social and political institutions that have been in place for almost the last 50 years.

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Originally posted by unionist:
At the same time, I can defend Cuba wholeheartedly (which I do) without having to blindly approve in advance everything that government does. In other words, I don't have to have the same attitude toward Cuba that certain people have toward the NDP.

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And when the NDP actually does have a track record as revolutionary new government in Ottawa for people to express fickle concern over, I'll be happy to defend that record "blindly" from any well meaning moderates. Canadians have their own long-running stoogeocracy that needs cleaning out of Ottawa.

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Yes, Kloch is long-winded and doesn't seem to be able to explain why Cuba is a bastion of human rights compared to U.S. client states in the region, like Haiti or Guatemala.

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Cuba is a bastion of human rights compared to Guatemala? Are we talking about during the civil war, or now?

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Originally posted by Fidel:

Kloch steers well clear of providing any positive examples, for example, where Haiti, another island nation just 55 miles from Cuba, has benefitted whatsoever by constant U.S. political and military interference in that country's democratic affairs from last century to this one and ongoing.

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I never said that Haiti was a great country, or even that it was a better place to live than Cuba. You might want to address actual points, instead of things you made up in your head.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

In fact, Kloch seems totally oblivious to the very requirements for democracy itself, namely the requirement that people are free to remain outside the circle of control of a vicious empire trying to impose its political will in Cuba since a brutal and corrupt U.S.-backed mafia regime was removed by Cubans themselves in 1959.

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Originally posted by jrootham:

The question that animates this thread (or at least some participants) is whether the bureaucratic repression that exists in Cuba is necessary to support its independence, and by extension, something similar is required to support anywhere else that wants some of the results of the Cuban approach.

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quote:

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Originally posted by George Victor:
George Victor

Hope you are up to facing the ideas that run counter to your simplistic take on the subject of democracy. Actually involves some history .

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Originally posted by Kloch:
You know what another requirement for democracy is? Being able to form political parties that disagree with the government.

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You mean, like, Canada's "Anti-Terrorism Act", which allows Stephen Harper to designate any organization as "terrorist", whereby it then becomes a criminal offence to raise funds or recruit members for such an organization?

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Originally posted by Kloch:

My take on democracy is fairly simplistic. If I can't form political parties that disagree with the government then your society isn't really a democracy.

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Is that your sole criterion?

ETA: Let me add that a feature of democracy under capitalism is that all kinds of things are allowed in law but are made all but impossible in fact, that is, the dominant system is not enforced by government or law but by capitalism itself (except when the system believes itself to be seriously threatened). Under capitalism this is not understood as a restriction on freedom but as freedom itself!

[ 27 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Originally posted by Kloch:

For what it's worth, George, I agree with your quote. My take on democracy is fairly simplistic. If I can't form political parties that disagree with the government then your society isn't really a democracy.

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NWT Does Not Allow political Parties

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The political system of the Northwest Territories has no political parties. The territory operates on the basis of consensus government. The premier of the Northwest Territories is chosen by and from the members elected.

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No political party, including Cuba's Communist Party, is allowed to run candidates for public office in that country. As in ... not one. The whole process of electioneering is radically and completely different from the well-financed circuses that we are used to.

The Cubans, long ago, took the path of socialism. This decision is reflected in their constitution and other fundamental documents. The very idea of inviting US-financed organizations to set up shop in that country to overthrow their hard-earned victories could only come from those indifferent to the consequences of the 50-year-old blockade/embargo by the US, the state of undeclared war on Cuba by the US, the endless subversion that goes on, and so on.

Funding for candidates in the US by foreign powers is, of course, illegal. But that country still expects others to allow what they themselves refuse to allow.

[ 27 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

No political party, including Cuba's Communist Party, is allowed to run candidates for public office in that country. As in ... not one. The whole process of electioneering is radically and completely different from the well-financed circuses that we are used to.

[ 27 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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both mother and daughter,

working for the Yankee dollllllaaaaar!

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Thanks '51

quote:

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Originally posted by jrootham:

You got a description of how that actually works?

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Read this.

[ 27 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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jrootham: You got a description of how that actually works?

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The Myth of Cuban Dictatorship

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The Cuban political system is based on a foundation of local elections. Each urban neighborhood and rural village and area is organized into a "circumscription," consisting generally of 1000 to 1500 voters. The circumscription meets regularly to discuss neighborhood or village problems. Each three years, the circumscription conducts elections, in which from two to eight candidates compete. The nominees are not nominated by the Communist Party or any other organizations. The nominations are made by anyone in attendance at the meetings, which generally have a participation rate of 85% to 95%. Those nominated are candidates for office without party affiliation. They do not conduct campaigns as such. A one page biography of all the candidates is widely-distributed. The nominees are generally known by the voters, since the circumscription is generally not larger than 1500 voters. If no candidate receives 50% of the votes, a run-off election is held.

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Furthermore,

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Although I have not had the experience, I suppose it would be possible to encounter a Cuban who feels alienated and who might say, "The Communist Party controls everything." This is true, because a majority of those elected are members of the Communist Party, and the higher up you go, the more likely it is to be so. Nevertheless, the selection of leadership is based on local elections. The Communist Party occupies a position of authority in the political institutions because the people support it. Our hypothetical alienated person is really expressing a frustration over the widespread support of the people for the Communist Party. The mechanism for the removal of members of the Communist Party from positions of authority in the government is in place, should that desire be the popular sentiment.

It is ironic that while many in the West assume that Cuba is less protective of political rights, in fact they are developing a system that is deliberately designed to ensure that the right of the people to vote does not become manipulated in a process controlled by the wealthy, and it therefore is more protective of political rights.

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Here's another, more left wing view ...

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There is no campaigning in Cuba, the candidates do not promote themselves and money is not a factor their election or decision making. Their biographies, including photos, education, work experience and other matters are posted conspicuously throughout their permanent, unchanging residential districts for months before the elections and details are supplied on request by the election commissions. They usually serve only one term, and most of them have previously been elected by constituents who know them personally or by reputation as to truly represent the common interest. They are not career politicians, they must have frequent meetings with constituents (called "accountability sessions") and they are subject to recall at all times. Where expert information is necessary, it is supplied by special commission or workers' parliaments rather than lobbyists, and proposed legislation (such as the recent imposition of an income tax on some) is voted on, up or down, in order of presentation. The peoples' representatives make the decisions, and once made, they move on to new decisions. In the elections held January 2003 over 93 per cent of eligible Cubans voted valid ballots, electing a National Assembly which truly represents their common interest, without the intervention of electoral parties.

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Four "Models" of Liberal Democracy
The four models of liberal democracy are designated as "Protective
Democracy", "Developmental Democracy", "Equilibrium Democracy",
and "Participatory Democracy." The first, which makes its case for
democracy on the grounds that it alone can protect the governed from
oppression, is found in the utilitarianism of Bentham and James Mill,
reluctant democrats who simply felt that the needs of an essentially
capitalist economy in the then prevailing conditions demanded such
political reforms as the extension of the franchise. The "developmental"
model, which Macpherson divides into two stages, is a more humanistic
one. The model is best represented by J.S. Mill (although Macpherson
recognizes the anti-democratic elements in Mill) who first articulated
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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

Read this.

[ 27 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:

Canadian Network on Cuba A different link for those that don't use Amazon books.

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I meant the book, not the dealer. But thanks for posting the link.

[ 27 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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The Cuban democratic system is regulated by Chapter XIV of the Constitution of the Republic, which establishes that in every election and referendum the vote is free, equal and secret. Each voter has the right to only one vote. All Cubans 16 years old and above have the right to vote.

All citizens, men and women, who fully enjoy their political rights can be elected, including the members of the Armed Forces and other military institutions.

For its political and administrative division, Cuba has 14 provinces and 169 municipalities. These are in turn divided into 13,865 electoral constituencies, which are the bases for the elections. The voters directly propose the candidates and elect their Representatives to the Municipal Assemblies of the People's Power.

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