LOS ANGELES - Producers and directors in the pornography industry began receiving letters this week from Los Angeles County health officials who want them to make actors use condoms during sex scenes.

Secondly: the whole porn industry is about fresh faces, so even an out-of-control infection rate among veterans shouldn't make too much of an impact, except in the occasional instance where a big name gets infected; but that's usually kept quiet, or so I hear.

Edited to add: Actually, now that I think of it a lot of the anecdotal information floating around in my head on this topic may have come from a previous thread on babble on the issue. I'll look for it.

[ 09 October 2004: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

May 18, 2004. (AP) The nation's top adult moviemaker has resumed production nearly a month after several performers were infected with HIV, shutting down much of the multibillion-dollar porn industry.

[ 09 October 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]

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Originally posted by Hailey:
My own opinion is if the actors and actresses don't wish to use condoms for whatever reason - better pay if they don't, personal decision etc -that that is their choice and should be respected.

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There are three problems with that argument, IMO.

First, there is a strong 'aesthetic' objection to condom use, which means that it's not really the choice of the individual actor so much as an economic necessity.

Second, since condom use is only possible for male participants but primarily protects female participants, mandatory usage is the only way to provide women with that 'choice'.

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First, there is a strong 'aesthetic' objection to condom use, which means that it's not really the choice of the individual actor so much as an economic necessity.Second, since condom use is only possible for male participants but primarily protects female participants, mandatory usage is the only way to provide women with that 'choice'.And third, I believe that recent court cases have generated enough precident to show that it is not a 'choice' to refuse to protect sex partners when one is infected with HIV.

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The reality is that in any profession persons are going to pay more for certain conditions and it is a choice whether or not to follow that career path, to accomodate the wishes of your employer, to find other employment etc. In terms of choices for women I believe that female condoms are now available. As well, these women do have choices - don't have sex with someone who won't wear one. Lastly, I think that the courts are wrong about that. If you want to make sure you don't get HIV take responsibility and insist that the person you are sleeping with is a safe person to be with.

And to reply to the earlier question the flu and HIV are different illnesses. The flu is transmittable through general contact. HIV is less infectious and persons need to practice universal precautions. As a nurse I practice universal precautions with any individual when I am in contact with their blood. I don't take the position that if they were hiv or hep positive that they would necessarily know that or they would tell me. Women having sexual relations need to show equal interest in their health. If you want to rely on people's self report - be prepared to be sick.

[ 09 October 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]

This is not a question of confining infection within a single community -- that has been demonstrated repeatedly.

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Originally posted by Hailey:
I think that someone should be able to decline to do something they feel is unsafe without losing their job.

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Above all, the problem is a trusting husband or trusting wife or trusting other kind of permanent partner who has the same kind of unprotected sex with the partner s/he has been having sex with for years ... only to discover ...That is what has made the epidemics. Hailey, you may be in denial about how these things spread; you may believe that either distinct communities or robotic individuals can contain the infection absolutely -- but history would seem to be weighing in against you.

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Yes, there are people that are in relationships that aren't monogamous when they believed they were. Life has no guarantees and that's a tragedy. I think that the best you can do is assess the person's history before marriage and their general character to get a sense that are capable of monogamy. If they have a crazy sexual history that they are unapologetic for - you think they are really going to settle down? That's a russian roulette decision. If you doubt your spouse you have the right to have condoms as a regular part of your married life.

[ 09 October 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]

2. Of HIV as of all infectious diseases, it is true -- and there is only one moral and truly Christian position on these issues:

As long as one person on earth has HIV, I have it.

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Originally posted by Hailey:
Oh, to clarify, I *do* think that the the industry has the right to pick a candidate who is willing to not use condoms if there is a stronger market for it. They have the right, like any employer, to pick the best candidate in their books.

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So by that logic, you also support the mining industry hiring people who are willing to work without hardhats? Millworkers who are willing to work without hearing protection? X-ray technicians who are willing to work without lead aprons? Welders who are willing to work without visors? Police officers who are willing to work without Kevlar vests?

As well, your second point suggests that I have a lack of compassion for someone who is HIV positive. I don't. I have cared for babies with that illness. I never balked at treating them, I never wanted to put a sign up that said they were hiv positive (some nurses if allowed would do this), and I used the same precautions as I did with a child that I had no reason to believe was HIV positive. I have also worked with parents who are HIV positive and not ONE of them would say that I treated them without dignity.

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So by that logic, you also support the mining industry hiring people who are willing to work without hardhats? Millworkers who are willing to work without hearing protection? X-ray technicians who are willing to work without lead aprons? Welders who are willing to work without visors? Police officers who are willing to work without Kevlar vests?

Condoms are a basic work-related safety item for the sex industry, just like basic safety protections in other industries. The western world has worked long and hard to ensure that industry cannot exploit workers by creating an environment where workers who are willing to threaten their health and safety are more desirable than those who are not. Why should the porn industry be any different?

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Originally posted by Hailey:

There would be no reason for a mining company to want their employees to not wear hants. There is a reason to want condom free sex - there is more of a market among viewers for it.

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Originally posted by Mandos:
I find Hailey's concern about life at conception and her lack of concern about working conditions for adults to be rather peculiar.

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Yeah, that whole "love your neighbour as yourself" can be difficult for some in application.

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Oh, to clarify, I *do* think that the the industry has the right to pick a candidate who is willing to not use condoms if there is a stronger market for it. They have the right, like any employer, to pick the best candidate in their books.

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Thanks, Hailey. You've just demonstrated that market forces are more important in practice than workplace safety. But, hey, they're just porn actors, right?

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
*shrugs* she's just being live and let live, much like we want the world to be about SSM or Pot really.

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You don't believe that you are your brother's keeper, do you, Hailey.

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To some extent. For example, I don't have any concerns about free condoms being distributed in appropriate settings and in public education on the topic including everything from abstinence to safer sex. I just don't believe in forcing individuals.

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There's a market for snuff movies too. Just because there is a market for something does not mean it is legal, moral or justified

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I don't know what that is so I cannot comment but I'd agree that you can't judge exclusively based on what there is a market for.

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I find Hailey's concern about life at conception and her lack of concern about working conditions for adults to be rather peculiar

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I am concerned about adults and their conditions. I just believe that people have the right to make choices that I don't agree with.

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Yeah, that whole "love your neighbour as yourself" can be difficult for some in application.

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I'm a very loving person. Anyone who knew me in person would characterize me in that way. That's unfair to say about me based on a handful of posts.

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But, hey, they're just porn actors, right?

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I never said that.

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What if it was a private hospital that claimed their patients dislike gloves and gowns? Would you want such a hospital to have the right to recruit nurses who knowingly put the their lives and the lives of their families at risk?

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I personally know nurses that work outside of hospitals that withdraw blood without gloves. They ask the person if they have an infectious disease, accept the self-report, and then proceed. I think they are very foolish but I also think it's their choice. They believe that they have better fine motor skill functions without the gloves (that's true) and that it makes the patient feel awkward to wear gloves. I'd fire their ass if I was their employer and they did it because I wouldn't want the liability of it all but it's not on my watch or my responsibility.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
[QB]Above all, the problem is a trusting husband or trusting wife or trusting other kind of permanent partner who has the same kind of unprotected sex with the partner s/he has been having sex with for years ... only to discover ...

That is what has made the epidemics.

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I just felt moved to observe that unless both partners were carrying on extramaritally, that would make for a pretty neatly contained little epidemic.