Thoughts?

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: paxamillion ]

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: paxamillion ]

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

Whenever you get lousy service, or you buy a lousy product--even if it happens every time you have to deal with some monopoly--always be nice about it. From the clerk to the manager to the CEO, these people are working.

I have, however, in the interest of pissing of and costing money to comapnies that annoy me, started following a tip I got through an email with a nasty way of dealing wiht telemarketers at the top - I take advantage of every piece of unsolicited mail I get that has a return stamped envelope to send the company some of my other junk mail. Banks that send me credit card apps get the local pizza specials, dating service questionnaires get returned with drycleaning coupons, And any magazine that puts the damn things in so that a few fall out everytime I pick it up get them sent in as well.

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I have, however, in the interest of pissing of and costing money to comapnies that annoy me, started following a tip I got through an email with a nasty way of dealing wiht telemarketers at the top - I take advantage of every piece of unsolicited mail I get that has a return stamped envelope to send the company some of my other junk mail. Banks that send me credit card apps get the local pizza specials, dating service questionnaires get returned with drycleaning coupons, And any magazine that puts the damn things in so that a few fall out everytime I pick it up get them sent in as well

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Or anyone in the CA.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: swirrlygrrl ]

Bittersweet, you're totally taking my position and twisting it, but I guess someone who feels it's okay to dump all over the most vulnerable workers in society wouldn't have a big problem with that.

You're damn RIGHT I don't believe in hurting people's feelings when those people most likely are working there because they can't get anything else, or because a big industry in their small town shut down and that's the government's idea of "attracting new business to the area". Basically, you're fucking around with the mind and feelings of someone who is in a shit job. But hey, that's okay, because they took one minute out of your precious day to do what they have to do to put food on their table.

Say, the next time you're walking down the street, why don't you kick the next homeless guy who takes a few seconds out of your day to ask for money? They're inconveniencing you, and of course your convenience is of paramount importance.

Or better yet, why not be rude to the server the next time you go out to eat? Boy that'll really stick it to the man, won't it?

People who are nasty to telemarketers are nothing but big cowardly bullies who get their jollies out of harassing people who can't fight back and are not in a position to change the policies of the place they're employed by.

I can think of one sort of circumstance, though, where I'd happily be rude to a telemarketer. That's when they're rude to you, which is especially likely when they're not just unfortunate drones reading a script*, but professional salespeople.

In Vancouver, Pacific Press, which publishes the ProvinSun and is now part of the CanGlog Megalith (tm), started aggressive telemarketing efforts a few years ago -- when the Pest came out, I suppose. They called often -- once a month, say. For the first while, it was evidently just the aforementioned UDRAS types who made these calls.

After a while, though, PacPress evidently decided to hire trained professionals, who to a man (and I do mean man) were smarmy, condescending, rude, you name it. So I had no problem rattling off all my objections to PacPress and all its works, my feelings about aggressive telemarketing, etc., to these guys. They started it, and they deserved it.

If you don't want to hear from me, put a note in the return envelope and tell me. I will just continue to mail to you if I don't have your name and address to know that you are someone who doesn't want to deal with direct mail.

Its a huge waste of paper (mostly lovely, bleached, non-recylced stuff), and an annoyance, that I never requested. And if we make it expensive enough for the companies, eventually they will stop doing it. I know, they do it cause it works, like telemarketing (non-profits know, its a sure return on the dollar). But its yet more creeping commercialism, and while there are some orgs that are good about taking people off the list, some aren't.

It shouldn't be my responsibility to make sure companies know I don't want their junk mail - I refuse to be bombarded by ads!

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I used [Layton] because he actually does sell his lists. I'm not sure if any of the other candidates do.

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Are you opposed to all forms of advertising? Would you prefer to only find out about stuff from friends? How will they hear about stuff? I mean, when I read some of my favourite magazines, like BUST, and they give my name to a company, it's likely to be a company that will be of interest to me. And ditto with the advertising contained within. I like the stuff in there.

Thus, telemarketers hear the voicemail, skip it, and head on to the next unfortunate soul.

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Say, the next time you're walking down the street

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why don't you kick the next homeless guy who takes a few seconds out of your day

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why not be rude to the server the next time you go out to eat?

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nothing but big cowardly bullies who get their jollies out of harassing people who can't fight back

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let me guess, you think it would be a much more principled choice for those people to starve on welfare or become homeless rather than to break into your precious little world, right?

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The Golden Rule is not the Iron Rule. I'm a human being, not a walking principle for Good. I'm assaulted every minute of the day by a maddening crowd of salesmen, even in my own home. Moreover, in the face of all this, I'm absurdly restrained. If I say that it's all right to express my feelings to a telemarketer, you take it to imply that I must be rude when I do it. That I am necessarily "hurting their feelings" when I express mine. Those exaggerations suggest that you value niceness above reason.

Too much empathy is paralysis. It's born out of a paranoia that to assert one' s "negative" feelings will cause someone, somewhere, whether by intention or by accident, a grievous injury. That they will starve, or become homeless, etc. Political Correctness comes from the same weak root. Yet all I'm willing to do when I express my feelings--as I mentioned--is to risk hurting someone else's. I don't try to hurt them. In actual practice, I'm nice to a fault and don't reveal my "negative" feelings often enough.

She hates it.

I used to be polite to telemarketers until I realized that they have a skript that helps them take advantage of your politeness.

I've noticed the same thing when being prosleytized by Church of Later Day Saints people. They switch to a new patter when you say "Sorry, I'm not interested."

That's the part that gets my goat-- the taking advantage of your politeness. It trains you to be rude.

When it comes to telemarketers, I just say "sorry, I'm not interested" and hang up as they are still jawing into the mouth piece.

I am still firmly on the side of being polite. While they do have another script to switch to if you say you aren't interested, its 45 seconds out of your life! And its this other person's life 8 hours a day.

As for telling the telemarketers how you feel about them invading your privacy, its like complaining to the person at the checkout about the price of toilet paper - they can't do anything about it! Get the name of the company they work for, and call or write to them complaining and asking them to remove your name from their list, or ask to speak to their supervisor, to complain and ask them to remove you from their list. It takes more time and energy than slamming down the phone (or even hanging it up nicely after the first "no, thank you"), and may not give you that instant emotional gratification, but in the long run its the best way to stop them from calling.

And I'd much rather do that than pay my monopoly, bad service, evil empire phone company another $3.95 a month for technology to help screen. And since I subscribe to the theory "if its important, they'll leave a message", I also use my answering machine to screen (drives my partner crazy. There's something about a ringing phone that leads him to scamper across a room, dropping whatever he is doing in the process. Very Pavlovian. Or am I just that boring?)

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If I say that it's all right to express my feelings to a telemarketer, you take it to imply that I must be rude when I do it. That I am necessarily "hurting their feelings" when I express mine.

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I think bittersweet pretty much nailed it. I'm frequently not nice, but I am unfailingly polite about it, until pushed. Then I feel justified in pushing back.

1) If a telemarketer or pollster calls you, ask politely if they're unionised, and if they say no, tell them you only take unsolicited calls from unionised workers. That will remind the worker on the other end of the line that there are unionised call centres, and, maybe, encourage them to bring in a union at their own.

2) If you want to rant about being disturbed, don't rant at the person who called you. Ask to speak to their manager or supervisor and tear a strip off them instead. When I worked in a call centre I was GLAD to transfer angry people to my supervisor. In fact, I'd usually offer that as an option to every angry person on the other end of the line.

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Terry Johnson ]

You guessed it, not long after we started getting one, sometimes up to three telemarketing calls an evening.

What finally tore it for me was an automated call that tied up my phone for about three or four minutes. This was in the days before legislation required automated calls to disconnect when you hung up.

I found out through Bell Canada that there's a clearing house kind of place where you submit your name (sorry, I forget the details) and that supposedly takes you off everyone's list for a year.

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There's something about a ringing phone that leads him to scamper across a room, dropping whatever he is doing in the process. Very Pavlovian.

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I supported myself as a phone soliciter while finishing high school, so I'm never rude to telemarketers or pollsters. If I have time, I'll participate in opinion polls that don't have anything to do with marketing a specific product. If the person on the line is specifically asking me to lighten my wallet, a polite but firm "no thank you" is all they get.

People coming to my door - rare, as I live in an apartment - get the same polite but firm treatment. If they get aggressive, well, I have a door for a reason.

Oh, fun among the denominations!

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Freakin' TELL me about it! People I know who have cell phones feel compelled to jerk the things out of their pockets even if they're having a conversation with me. Like, hel-LO? That's what voice mail's for!

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Oh please.

First of all, often people with cell phones (like mine) don't have to pay for incoming calls, but they have to pay for outgoing calls. I was out with a friend the other night when my father called long distance on my cell phone. I politely told my friend that it was long distance from my father, and it was just fine with him.

I also answer it on the bus (if other people are allowed to talk to each other on the bus, then I don't see why it's any more annoying for me to talk to someone on the phone on the bus as long as it's not too personal a conversation), I answer it if I'm eating alone in a restaurant or food court (again, why should other people be offended when they're talking to each other?), and yes, if I'm visiting a friend, or a friend visits me, I will answer the phone while they're there. It's no different than having a land line in your house - what, you're never supposed to answer the phone if someone else is in the same room with you?

I don't know if the Jehovah's Witness' have been trained to do this, in responce to the general public fedupedness of their proslytising. (someone correct that spelling-- I used to know how to spell that word, now it escapes me)

Oh, I was going to respond about Jehovah's Witnesses and LDS members. I have never minded having them knock on my door, I usually just tell them I'm not interested after making polite conversation with them for a moment.

But I know this one guy at my church, he's really funny. He's a retired guy who is very, very strong in his faith, but not the type to go door to door about it. But he'll share it with anyone if the conversation in any way turns to religion. Anyhow, when JWs or LDSs come to his door, he invites them in, and has a nice theological discussion with them. And since he has studied about the background of many of the more "heretical" Christian sects (heretical to the mainstream, that is) like JW and LDS, he usually questions them about all sorts of inconsistencies. He says that here and there he'll really make someone waver, at which point, he'll give them his phone number and tell them to call him sometime if they feel they want to learn more about it.

I find the bus thing amusing, because cell phones used to have snob appeal, and seeing some immigrant kid from my neighbourhood chatting on the phone on the bus really brings it down to us common folk...

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cell phones used to have snob appeal

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I know they did, but I never got that. I guess it's my attitudes to phones in general. When I go out to enjoy myself somewhere, the last thing I want is a phone call breaking into it.

I'm having second thoughts, there are reasons why having a cell phone would have some utility for me sometimes.

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My favorite story realtes to a friend of mine whose father was a Greek Orthhodox (minister? whatever they're called), who whenever other people would come to spread the good news, he'd invite them in, then offer them his Bibles and literature, and try to convince them to come to his next sermon or church outing.

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A fellow I know tries to recruit telemarketers into his multi-level marketing business when they call. That usually ends the call quickly.

I also keep my cell phone mapped to a pager if I can't pick it up. The voice mail message on the pager tells folks to tap in their number if it's an emergency or just leave a voice message if it's not. That way I can turn off my phone with a reduced risk of missing something pressing. Of course, a few folks I know think that *everything* they want to discuss is pressing.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: paxamillion ]

It's the damn rings that get me! When people have the Lone Ranger theme (whatever symphony its from) or (my personal ironic favorite) Ode to Joy just CRANKED on their cel so that everyone in a five block radius gets to hear the shrill, annoying, totally unmusical tones, it DRIVES ME CRAZY! If everyone would just turn the volume down, or better yet, put it on vibrate, I think there'd be a lot more goodwill towards many a cel user.

Of course, this is clueless behaviour (or possibly self-aggrandizing, entitlement behaviour), and it drives me just as crazy in teh non-tech fields - people who don't say excuse me or sorry, people who sit on the subway when pregnant women or old men are standing a foot away from them (or my personal favorite, I saw a young guy sit down in the spot a woman had vacated for a pregnant woman!). Talking too loud or about too personal an issue is horribly rude if you are ona cel phone or with a live person.

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Snerk. Well, I guess it is pretty rude to talk for a long time on the phone when you're with someone else.

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It's the damn rings that get me! When people have the Lone Ranger theme (whatever symphony its from) or (my personal ironic favorite) Ode to Joy just CRANKED on their cel so that everyone in a five block radius gets to hear the shrill, annoying, totally unmusical tones, it DRIVES ME CRAZY!

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Hahahaha!

Oh, I know. My phone ring is just the continental ring - two short rings in a row.

My mother tells this hilarious story about having to fill in briefly in another office. Apparently there was this one woman at the office with a cell phone, and she used to drive her one deskmate crazy, because she had some fugue or something programmed for the ring. And apparently it just went on and on and on. Mom heard it one day and thought it was hilarious (probably all the more because it was so over-the-top and so amusing to see the other woman's reaction), but the other woman was like, "Could you PLEASE answer your ^$@^%&$@ phone!?"

I have about 20-30 melodies I can use on my phone. Everything from Hava Nagila to Rondo Alla Turca to the Barney Theme Song (I love you, you love me, etc.). I was entertaining my father and his wife on a trip to his place with the different rings. I kind of wish I could program the rings for different callers, so for instance if my mother calls, there's one ring, and if my friend calls, there's another ring, etc.

I decided when I got a cell phone that I would make it as least annoying as possible, and I vowed not to wreck any of the compositions of the masters. There's nothing I hate more than hearing Beethoven's "9th Symphony", or "Fur Elise", or Bach's "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" or Mozart's "Rondo Alla Turca" butchered by mechanical beeps.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Secondly, when the blond guy travels, it's easier to keep in touch. I can check in with him much more easily, and without as much long distance charge if I generate the call.

What I really hate are people who don't turn their phones off in workshops, seminars or screenings. When somebody's trying to address a roomful of people, it's just rude to be taking calls.

However, the other day I didn't put it on "vibrate" because the screen on the phone read "no service" (it does that if you're deep inside some of the large buildings at Queen's). And no one usually calls me during school days, so I wasn't worried.

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It's someone's job to invade your privacy.

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What's so hard about saying, Sorry not interested and hanging up the phone?

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I agree and do it all the time. With pollsters I always first ask who is the polling data for and when they say no I can't tell you I say thank you good bye.

With Jehovah's and other people like that I just say thank you I've already been saved. It tends to leave them speechless.

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You want silence while you're eating then stay home.

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*snork*

I might suggest if people want it smoke free when eating, they should stay at home.

One cell phone call in such circumstances isn't a transgression. However, at one meal some time ago people sat at a table, and between the bunch of them, a cell phone was going off every minute or so at one point.

Evil acts like a plasma sometimes. You do something shitty to me, I do it to someone else. It happens without thinking, a lot of times. I wish I was stronger, but sometimes I do it myself.

But, you know, "good" is a plasma too.

Perhaps my time is not as valuable as others on this thread but I'm still polite.

Always.

What does it cost ?

I smile and make up excuses that are unassailable.

Call display is not always helpfull. "Private name Private number" can trick me sometimes so when I get duped into answering I just do the old "CANT HEAR YOU" deal.

Hello

This is Roger from the Ottawa Sun I was ....

Hello ???

This is Roger from the...

Hello ????

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But anyway........I see both sides and I'm sure that regarding phone solicitation neither party wants to be there.

Manners and politeness .

For all door to door charitable requests I politely tell them that a relative died of Alzheimers and thus my donatations go towards that. This is the truth.