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Author Topic: Things that piss me off . . .
animal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1890

posted 05 August 2002 12:31 AM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, call me crazy, but I think a grrl has a right to go out at 8:30 on a Sunday evening without being harrassed. I just got back from my local convience store, where the following exhange occured . . .

Me: ". . . and a pack of Benson and Hedges."
(yes, yes, smoking is bad)
Clerk: "That's $10.50."
Guy in line: "I'll have to see some ID."
Clerk: "Hehe, yeah, she looks like she's 16, eh?"
Guy: "You know, you have to be careful these days."
Clerk: "She's alright, I like her." (wink & smile)
Guy: "Hehe, well it's okay if you like 'em, eh?"
Clerk: "Hehe, of course."

I forced an obviously fake smile, took my purchase, and left.

Now, some would say I should just take it in good humor or even be flattered. I really was asking for it, you know, what with being all dolled-up in my t-shirt and jeans. But guys rarely (if ever) have to put up with this kind of shit, and when I do it really pisses me off.

Actually, it's really more of a cumulative pissed-off-ness. I don't know whether I've just become hyper-sensitive to it or whether there's something in the summer air or whether guys have a sixth-sense to tell when a girl is single, but *literally* every time I've gone out by myself after 7pm in the last few weeks something like this has happened. Every single time.

"Hey girl, what are you doing out all alone?"

"Hey baby, want a ride?" "No, thanks." "Ohh, someone thinks she's too good for us."

"Looks like you need some company."

"Mmmmm, looking good."

I don't live in a bad area of town . . . I live by the university, near a trendy shopping and bar strip. Under other circumstances, I would probably even consider most of these guys to be decently attractive. I'm sure they don't have any problem finding girls, so what on earth possesses them to behave in this manner? Why is it amusing? Do they ever think of the effect it has on women?

Yes, I've read some books, I've heard some of the theories behind the behaviors, but when it happens again, and again, and again . . . I can't help but think what the hell is wrong with these people?

I'm sure all women out there have to put up with similar shit. What are your experiences? What do you say to these creeps? And how do you deal with it? (other than venting on babble, which, by the way, is highly cathartic )


From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 625

posted 05 August 2002 01:22 AM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm sure they don't have any problem finding girls

Judging from what you've said, I wouldn't be so sure

But I agree, that's just totally annoying (not that it's happened, but I've seen it happen). I think I've slapped a few guys (up-side the head. real hard) for being asses like that. One time, we had to break up into groups in civics class, to work on a project. In my group, there was only one girl, and she was having a really bad day- she hadn't slept in something like 26 hours, and had a shift at work after school, to boot. Plus she was sick. So she puts her head on the desk, and tries to just wait out the class (which I don't mind- she had a really freakin' bad day, and the project was super easy) What does one of the guys in our group do? He starts hitting on her! She kept telling him to leave her alone, and he kept it up. At one point, he actually said "They say they wanna be left alone but all they really need is a little honey in the hive."

AAAAAAARGH!!!!

So while the other guy in the group is laughing his ass off, I just give the other one this evil glare and say, with some force "You are a fucking. Moron!". That stupid faux-machismo really gets on my nerves.

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: meades ]


From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2832

posted 05 August 2002 01:49 AM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The withering retort.

Next time.


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 August 2002 10:29 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, c'mon, flotsom: Great idea, but give us some good lines.

Actually, I suspect a lot of women often wouldn't use the great lines even if they could think of them at the time, for the same reason they wouldn't carry a weapon. Depending on the circs, it can be moderately to intensely frightening to be hit on, and the last thing anyone who's unsure of how aggressive a guy is gonna be wants to do is give him a reason to continue.

Thirty years of Take Back the Street, and we still haven't taken back the street. I know. It's frustrating.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 05 August 2002 01:18 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I used to carry a shoulder-bag with a really big buckle, to swing at the most persistent creeps who would follow me and my friend down the street, asking our names and where we were going. (Obviously, this was a long time ago, but things haven't changed much.)
Oddly, it only seemed to happen when we were out together, not when i was alone. Maybe because, alone, i tend to walk fast and purposefully, while my friend is a slow walker....
...or maybe because they assumed we were sauntering down Yonge St on a Sunday, hoping to meet boys.

Here is a problem in our society: No generally accepted mating-rituals. No generally accepted - and taught - etiquette of becoming acquainted. My mother never had this problem when she was young. It simply wasn't permitted for boys to approach girls they hadn't been introduced to. In social settings, where young people got together (by invitation only: everyone there was known to somebody in your circle), there were well-defined rules and limits to flirting. Of course there have always been ignorant and rude people, but you didn't have to mix with them.
With greater freedom comes greater risk of annoyance.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2832

posted 05 August 2002 01:54 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey, c'mon, flotsom: Great idea, but give us some good lines

I've not been on the recieving end of any withering retorts - ever - 'cause I'm a brother and a son, and not some aggressive baboon who's just escaped from the African Lion Safari.

(apologies to family Cercopithecidae)

One time my girlfriend (fierce Galway girl) said to a drunken lout at an open stage - from the stage: "hey buddy, cool it, I'm with him."

Now that's withering enough, I would think.


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 05 August 2002 03:01 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now, some would say I should just take it in good humor or even be flattered. I really was asking for it, you know, what with being all dolled-up in my t-shirt and jeans. But guys rarely (if ever) have to put up with this kind of shit, and when I do it really pisses me off.

Oh heavens! Someone found you attractive? That is just not right at all is it? So they could use some manners, they could use some new lines.

What's the alternative? To be ignored? Maybe that is the thing you really want but I bet it isn't.
There are times when people just aren't in the mood for that bullshit. Fair enough, if it really means that much to you then to hell with the fake smile. Sound off like you have a pair of balls for a change and quit hiding behind the computer. Tell them directly and in no uncertian terms that you will brook none of that nonsense and that they best watch their Ps and Qs when they talk to or about you.

I am sure that should sort things out with those boys. Further, you would do well to remember that sexual attraction isn't something men turn on and off when it's convenient. No more than it is for a woman. As well I don't much like the way women walking down the street check out what I'm packing.

Hello my face is up here too!

So men and women aren't much different in that both sexs are prone to atleast window shopping.

But then think of it this way, if not for sexual attraction, we would never have made it out of the trees.

So if you don't like some guy putting it on for you tell them to fuck off.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1845

posted 05 August 2002 05:10 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
And I am sure their response to being told to fxck off would be equally nice, unintimidating and accepting of her right to go about her business without being harassed in such a demeaning manner. You shouldn't have to point out to others not to treat the opposite sex like they are human rather than a sex object... and the fact that we humans are more than sex objects to each other is exactly why we are not in the trees. We are more than that, most of us can be so, we don't have to spend the day with our tongues dribbling spit onto the counter as we ogle the customer in our shops, why should these people be allowed to do it first, purely so a woman can feel like she is desired for her body rather than her mind, I mean, gee, that is like so complimentary...

And if your 'packet' is being checked out all the time, maybe you should stop stuffing it with tissues, Slick!!


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skadie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2072

posted 05 August 2002 05:37 PM      Profile for skadie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The I.D. issue really pisses me off. I am almost 30 and I still get I.D.ed for cigarettes. (And no -- I do not take it as a compliment. How many eighteen year olds have laugh lines?)

In my bar-going days I found as a single woman wearing a skirt I could get in anywhere. As a woman wearing work clothes or a woman entering with a man I'd have no end of problems getting into bars or clubs. The door MAN (how many female bouncers have you seen in you life) is supposed to use his discression, but I have had many arguments and been kicked out of many places based on my problems with their discression.

It seems in men age is revered, in women it is ignored.

quote:
I don't much like the way women walking down the street check out what I'm packing.

Yes, but do you feel a physical threat? I don't think many women would have the "balls" to stand up to an offensive man they don't know.

There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING, complimentary about being sussed by a bunch of strange men.

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]


From: near the ocean | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 August 2002 05:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well said, Apemantus.

Look, Slick, I'm not proud of being a wimp, and I admire women who've learned to fight back -- to a degree. But you are flat-out denying that aggressive behaviour is alarming to most women -- most people, I should think. Who knows how dangerous any particular jerk is; who wants to find out? The onus is on the aggressors to clean up their act, not on women to learn how to be just as brutal and stupid as your average smart-mouth twerp.

And about women checking out your whatever that was, Slick ...


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
animal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1890

posted 05 August 2002 05:48 PM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fair enough, if it really means that much to you then to hell with the fake smile. Sound off like you have a pair of balls for a change and quit hiding behind the computer.

Ha! Like I have a pair of balls?!? No thanks . . . I'm pretty happy acting in accordance with my current set of genetalia .

Seriously, though, be it a withering retort or an outright Fuck Off, the last thing I want to do is engage them in conversation. I don't feel it's worth my energy to try to enlighten these creeps, and as skdadl said, depending on the circumstances it can be pretty frightening.

Besides, my experience is that their reaction is rarely "Gosh, I didn't realize it, but I'm really being an insensitve pig. Sorry." Usually it falls into one of two categories . . .

1) "Hehe, looks like we've got a live one on our hands . . . isn't that cute." or
2) "What a bitch. Looks like someone hasn't gotten layed in a little too long. I know how to solve that problem . . ."

Either way, what have I accomplished? A feeling of self-righteous indignation? Great. I've also showed that I react to their idiocy (thus, their strategy has worked) and I've opened up the door to more conversation.

quote:
Oh heavens! Someone found you attractive? That is just not right at all is it? . . . Further, you would do well to remember that sexual attraction isn't something men turn on and off when it's convenient.

Great excuse. "Gosh, I just saw you and my willy could hardly contain itself, so I really had no choice but to approach you." What, am I supposed to be flattered? Somehow I manage to contain my lust when a guy with a really great ass walks by, though I'll admit I'm sometimes guilty of taking a nice, long look .

Nonesuch, I like your strategy , know where I can get one of those bags? I also really like your analysis . . . I suppose there really aren't any clear rules out there. I'd just like to think that there's a common standard of decency that would make men realize that a woman alone at night is in an inherently threatening situation, and is therefore off-limits for these kind of approaches. *Sigh*

BTW - in most other situations (with friends, at parties, even at a bar), where I feel I have a bit of a safety net, I rarely hesitate to tell people what's what.


From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 05 August 2002 06:13 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1) "Hehe, looks like we've got a live one on our hands . . . isn't that cute." or
2) "What a bitch. Looks like someone hasn't gotten layed in a little too long. I know how to solve that problem . . ."


Don't forget "Must be a dyke."
quote:
I'd just like to think that there's a common standard of decency that would make men realize that a woman alone at night is in an inherently threatening situation, and is therefore off-limits for these kind of approaches.

No kidding. If I end up walking behind a woman at night -- and we're the only ones around -- I usually speed up to pass her or slow down enough so it doesn't seem like I'm following her.

It's not like these yahoos who make comments to women actually think she's going to turn around and give them her phone number. It's just a power trip to let her know her place (and often to show off to their male friends who are hanging about).

There's nothing wrong with flirting or complimenting women on their looks, but there's a time and place. Doing stuff like yelling out a car window, "Wow, nice tits," is just pathetic. Even if you think it, you don't have to shout it out.


From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
animal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1890

posted 05 August 2002 06:26 PM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's just a power trip to let her know her place (and often to show off to their male friends who are hanging about).

EXACTLY! Jerks . . .

From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 05 August 2002 08:19 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, the guys are doing their chitchat.

The gal finally looks right in the clerk's eyes and says, "Oh, on second thought, I won't be getting any of these things in this store right now. You won't mind if I leave them here on the counter for you to put back, will you?" Smiles. And leaves.

Not an obvious confrontation, but the dude has a chance of getting the message.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 05 August 2002 09:49 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You shouldn't have to point out to others not to treat the opposite sex like they are human rather than a sex object

Earth to apeguy. Yes yes it should be a fucking utopia. It isn't, it is full of all sorts and some of them are the kind that think unwarranted remarks are both aceptable and endearing.

As for the rest of you, I guess you feel that it is someone elses job to sort them out. Well if momma didn't do it then good luck with waiting for someone to come along and sort that out.

No not everyone is going to kill women should they look alive. Aparently most here think fuck off can only come in the form of saying the words fuck off.
Ok so maybe some people need help with the details.

If you don't like it ask those who are offending you to please stop. This is instead of using the chain saw to ask the question people. Nor do you need to arm yourself with the 12 gauge just yet. We are still in the negotiation stage okay?

After you explain that the way they talk to you is not polite, nor do you find it enjoyable. In this way a clear message has been sent to them and I am sure they will stop as you have requested.

If on the other hand you find that your request has been refused then take it up with the management of the store. I am sure that most store owners will want to keep their customers happy and will find some other person to fill the position.

Skdadl sorry you're a wimp. Don't be, it's one of the things that makes you a target. Learn to be aware of your surroundings and the people in them.
As well it takes about 3 seconds to figure out if someone is a real threat or full of shit. You just have to learn how.

Finally, the idea that women aren't just as bad as men when it comes to looking at people is a joke. Perhaps you need to have alook at the faces of the people around you as you walk down the street.
Perhaps you don't think women go to strip bars either. Wake up and quit being a victim.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 05 August 2002 10:46 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Finally, the idea that women aren't just as bad as men when it comes to looking at people is a joke.

This thread is about verbal harassment, not looking. There is an enormous difference. In terms of harassment, men are definitely much worse than women. The example at the beginning of the thread is pretty tame compared to what a lot of women go through.
quote:

Perhaps you don't think women go to strip bars either.


Some women do, but not nearly as many as men, and not as often. Otherwise there would be a lot more strip clubs for women. Even most of the clubs with male dancers are for gay men. (That's at least in the Toronto area; it may be different in other places but I doubt it.)

From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2845

posted 05 August 2002 11:47 PM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i thought this was a forum in which to "discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view."

quote:
Skdadl sorry you're a wimp. Don't be, it's one of the things that makes you a target.

you might want to consult the facts.


From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 06 August 2002 12:08 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find it really interesting that Slick's response comes after my scenario, where a woman deals with the situation starting the thread all by herself and without saying the mean mean f-word.

And yes, anna_c, you're right. Willy should take his "boys will be boys, and girls should be polite about it" somewhere else.

Gee Willy, thanks for giving us gals tips about harassment. It's not like we haven't been dealing with it our whole lives. And no, you obviously can't understand what it has meant to live with the chronic comments, digs and subtle threats, seeing as you've stated that we should take it all as flattery.

Bosh.

Ever had a guy pull up in a car and throw his passenger-side door open, ask you for directions then tell you to get in at four in the morning, streets otherwise empty? I have. It's scary. But then, I shouldn't have been out at that time, being a woman, eh? Or maybe I misunderstood and he was just being cute.

Gosh, won't it be nice to actually experience what it feels like to live in a free country, goils?


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2474

posted 06 August 2002 04:16 AM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As well it takes about 3 seconds to figure out if someone is a real threat or full of shit. You just have to learn how.
Besides the obvious condescension, this advice is wrong. It's being typed by a person who has misinterpreted these kind of situations. Anyone who can type this
quote:
if not for sexual attraction, we would never have made it out of the trees
demonstrates that he's already confused an expression of sexual desire (which might indeed be an issue of mere "manners" or the need for "new lines") with an expression designed to intimidate. Couching a need to dominate in the form of sexual innuendo does not fool many women into thinking it's merely a botched compliment. The men expressing that need obviously know their targets aren't fooled; in fact, they rather enjoy the sensation of transparently humiliating women when they have the chance. Having the chance is not dependent so much on assessing a woman's status as "victim," but on whether the men outnumber the women, and therefore have greater moral support. It takes "about three seconds" to understand the real intention, the unspoken message (for example, the tone is blatantly condescending--coincidentally, even when typed) but it's not possible to know in that time how great a weak man's "desire" may compel him to impose it.

From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1845

posted 06 August 2002 04:45 AM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am sure they will stop as you have requested

Yes, because they showed by their earlier comments how considerate they really are... And we can tell, they are the type who respect women's wishes. Who is living in cloud cuckoo land?


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 387

posted 06 August 2002 12:38 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I live on a street where the corner store is between two bars and these kinds of guys are around day and night. No, you do not answer them when they're playing these games. I'm not bad looking and dress well, but I don't look like a hooker plus I'm over 50 and overweight, so what's your excuse for me getting this kind of treatment, Slick?

Some men think any woman is fair game, even more so if she's even slightly attractive and alone. Sometimes they're just joking and sometimes not. A woman cannot afford to take that chance. Some idiot followed me to my apartment door at 8:00pm one night and tried to grab me. If it wasn't for one of the regular drunks that's often on my street, who knows what would have happened. Women have been beated up for talking back to some of these idiots. One young mother was stabbed in a grocery store parking lot for just telling a guy she wasn't interested.

Some men simply assume that any woman alone is looking for a man and so desperate that she will take anything in pants. Sorry, that's not the case. Our corner store people will tell the guy to lay off and threaten to call the police if they do this kind of thing. They've also been know to keep a guy there until the woman is safely home.


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 August 2002 01:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
i thought this was a forum in which to "discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view."

This is true - but there are different types of feminism. I'm not sure what I think on this issue, but Slick seemed to be saying that women should empower themselves and stop seeing themselves as victims, and I tend to agree with that.

Personally, when I am in a situation like the one that started this thread, if the guy is just engaging in some friendly banter I will smile, accept it the way he most likely intended it (as a compliment) and go along my way. Maybe it's because I don't have the type of gorgeous looks that stop traffic, so it's not like I deal with unwanted advances every day. But I've never been afraid to walk by myself at night, and I've never been afraid of guys who are flirtatious, even if I don't know them - unless, of course, they say something threatening. I don't consider a shop-keeper saying, "she's all right, I like her" or winking to be threatening, but then we all have different thresholds for that kind of feeling. And I agree, people don't need to be discussing your looks in the third person with you present. But even that doesn't really bother me if they're saying something nice - to me, if it's meant as a compliment or even as a slight flirt, then that's how I take it.

Of course, that could be because I grew up knowing what harassment with cruel intent was like in school where I was taunted mercilessly by both boys AND girls about my weight And the girls were a hell of a lot nastier about it than the boys - at least the boys were straightforward about it, the girls played really nasty mind games. I suppose I could try to put a slightly flirtatious comment or a wink on the same level, but to me, there's no point. I know what it feels like to be a victim of harassment, and it feels a lot different to me than being on the receiving end of flirting or compliments. Why would I try to make myself feel bad about something someone said to me by telling myself he just victimized me, especially when he probably was completely ignorant of how I felt about it?

Also, having someone yell "Hey, show us your tits" from a car window is a lot different than having a clerk in a store tell you that you look nice today, or even that you look younger than you are. I would agree with Slick in this case - for me to get offended at something like that would be a case of me turning myself into a victim when it's likely that no offense was intended.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 06 August 2002 01:42 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that it's the third person context that bothers her Michelle. I think it would have bothered me too, however, if I had been bothered by it (tone, inflection, body language all play a huge part) I would have point-blank said "Excuse me? To whom are you reffering?" That would address the rudeness of the third person objectification with "misinterpreting" a "compliment".

Slick, I don't think many people would have much of a problem with "you look nice today". There's a difference between that and what some of these folks are talking about.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 06 August 2002 02:01 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Flirting is a real skill, even an art. It's not an invitation to sex or dating necessarily, but rather an acknowledgement of friendly mutual attraction and/or interest. And to be successful it has to be welcome and a mutual social exercise. I'd put the exchange between the clerk and the guy in line under the heading of "annoying drivel". Clearly they imagine themselves witty and charming, but only a couple of morons would think a woman would be flattered by such condescending crap. As for the other variety of unwanted sexual attention, as someone has already pointed out, it's not about attraction or flattery. Being yelled at from a car, having vulgar noises made in your direction as you walk by some ape, these aren't misguided dating strategies - they're behaviors designed to intimidate and humiliate women. Men who genuinely like women just don't behave this way. And women should be, and have every right to feel, uncomfortable about confronting a man who so obviously dislikes her simply because she's a woman. Because sometimes being non-controntational, doing everything possible to keep yourself safe, will still end up with you being sexually assaulted by one of these angry misogynists.

No, I don't think being discussed in the third person by a couple of charmless goofs is any big deal. Some people just don't get it, and there are far better places to expend one's energy than trying to politically enlighten the socially inept. Not everyone knows how to flirt graciously. Being harassed, bullied, intimidated and humiliated as one walks down the street is another matter entirely and should be treated as the form of assault that it is.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skadie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2072

posted 06 August 2002 04:26 PM      Profile for skadie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's read this again:


quote:
Me: ". . . and a pack of Benson and Hedges."
(yes, yes, smoking is bad)
Clerk: "That's $10.50."
Guy in line: "I'll have to see some ID."
Clerk: "Hehe, yeah, she looks like she's 16, eh?"
Guy: "You know, you have to be careful these days."
Clerk: "She's alright, I like her." (wink & smile)
Guy: "Hehe, well it's okay if you like 'em, eh?"
Clerk: "Hehe, of course."


In my opinion this is less a flirtatious situation than a demeaning way to treat a woman alone as a pawn. The clerk has the power to sell or not to sell this woman cigarettes. The clerk is making certain the woman knows he has that power over her. The clerk is assuming the woman at his counter is younger than the man behind her and that the man behind her has some sort of right to have a say in the decision on whether or not to sell her the product.

That is a piss off. Animal didn't ask for solutions to the "problem." She was venting, and I for one can completely understand her anger.

Why should looking sixteen be taken as a compliment? Especially in a situation where being sixteen limits your choices. Why should the fact that the clerk likes her be considered a compliment? Especially in a situation where his like or dislike is crucial to his decision on whether or not to serve her.

Michelle, if the clerk said to you, "she looks sixteen and she's fat, let's not serve her." wouldn't you be pissed off? I don't see any difference. Animal didn't walk into the store to be rated. She walked into the store to purchase a product.


From: near the ocean | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 06 August 2002 04:45 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skadie, animal *wasn't* "just venting" -

quote:
I'm sure all women out there have to put up with similar shit. What are your experiences? What do you say to these creeps? And how do you deal with it? (other than venting on babble, which, by the way, is highly cathartic )

From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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Babbler # 184

posted 06 August 2002 04:46 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
so what's your excuse for me getting this kind of treatment, Slick?

Since when did I become the poster child for every rude comment directed at a woman?
I started another thread so as not to disrupt this one. For those who know me and Trisha you surely should be one of those, I am supportive of feminisim (that is the promotion of equality between the sexes) and have never seriously tried to say anything to degrade or intimidate women here.

It has become pretty obvious that there are a few people here that have little interest in feminisim and rather would preffer to stand behind feminism as a cause to lash out at me for their own short comings. I invite you to the other thread as what I have to say has nothing to do with discussing feminism in a positive way.

Trish, all I can tell you is that if you feel these men are a real threat, one that if you actually said something like "I don't like the way you're talking to me so please stop" would result in a physical attack then you should be going to the police and making a complaint.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 06 August 2002 04:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In the thirty-plus years I've lived in Toronto, I've been grabbed three times on the street, twice in broad daylight. Twice I was able to beat the guys off by reflex action -- that is, I struck out before I fully realized what was going on (at which point, of course, I got scared -- but luckily there were people close enough that the guys backed off). Once I needed help, and luckily it was close enough.

I somehow don't feel that the solution to this stuff is to lecture women like me on how much more work WE have to do. When I called myself a wimp above, I was doing it in a spirit of generosity, expecting that some women would come along who'd thought of smarter measures than I have. Women -- and some men -- talk with one another that way. It's supposed to encourage and nurture discussion. Well: until some self-important show-off comes along and decides to ignore my tone, take a self-deprecating admission as evidence of vulnerability (always to be pounced upon and exploited, eh?), and sell me a seminar in self-defence, like a bleeding snake-oil salesman.

You want me to "stand up" for myself, Willy? ("Standing up" -- the title of the second thread Willy started on this topic in another forum: geez, Willy, you have a hard time spitting out any rhetoric that isn't phallic, don't you?) How'm I doing? And gee, I didn't even have to be foul-mouthed -- or worse, coy ("my packet" -- please) -- like you. Although I could do that. I'll go think about whether or not to tell you to impale yourself on a sharp stake and rotate.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 06 August 2002 04:59 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Last time I went to police (sexual assault squad) I had a cop in my face asking why he should believe me. This after I'd been ... wait for it ... sexually assaulted! For some odd reason, I don't think of the (mostly) boys in blue fighting my battles for me.

Yes, yes, there are some good cops, but as those who follow the deaths of women who have restraining orders out on their murderers know, police often don't help a lot in the most extreme situations.

What would they do when they hear, "This guy made me uncomfortable. I don't know his name, but he was on the street over there about half an hour ago." Or, "The guy in the store talked about me in the third person, and I got a really bad vibe about it."

Unfortunately, we live in the real world not "some utopia." The cops are likely to shrug and say nothing can be done about it, because no law had been broken.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 06 August 2002 05:01 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is true - but there are different types of feminism
Isn't THAT the truth. I must say I do get irked whenever someone tries to claim I'm anti-feminist because I don't swallow their particular variety of feminism.

While acknowledging that not everyone is capable of the kind of bootstrap feminism that some of us may favour, I do think that the more robust of us (read: the more ornery of us) can stand up for ourselves, and extend an umbrella over our sisters who may not, for a variety of reasons, be as sure of themselves. A good-natured, "oh, fuck off, you know I'm not [16 years old/a bitch/your bitch/a sexy bitch/whatever pisses you off] which translates as, "I know you're trying to rattle my cage and I'll play along so as you don't push it too far and force me to embarass you in front of all these people" works well for me.

[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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Babbler # 2776

posted 06 August 2002 05:17 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One can never underestimate the power of the simple, pure mesSage that is conveyed through pepper spray.

"Hey baby! Nice...ARRRGGGGGHHHHHHHRRRH! MY EYES!"


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 August 2002 06:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle, if the clerk said to you, "she looks sixteen and she's fat, let's not serve her." wouldn't you be pissed off? I don't see any difference.

I do. In one case the guy is making a complimentary comment (she looks 16 and I like her) and in the other he's saying something uncomplimentary (she looks fat and I don't want to serve her). Sure, we can talk about how it's sexist to base whether or not you "like" someone or you want to serve them on their looks. I would even agree with you about the underlying implications of his comment. But somehow, I don't think this guy was getting too deep into anti-feminist theory here when he made the comment. I don't think he was seriously saying, "If I didn't like your looks I wouldn't serve you." I think he was just trying to banter.

And speaking of which,

quote:
Animal didn't walk into the store to be rated. She walked into the store to purchase a product.

Yes, I know, she wasn't going to the store to engage in banter. I don't really go anywhere with the specific intent of engaging in banter except perhaps into babble banter - but I banter with lots of people every day, including strangers, just the same.

You are right, the joking about her age is not what she went there for, and I'm not saying it's a huge compliment that someone "likes you". I'm just saying that if it happened to me, I would just take it as a harmless joke, like the guy probably intended. Or, if I was annoyed or not in the mood for it, I would either do what Rebecca West suggested above (pointedly telling the guy in a "funny" way to fuck off) or what writer said (leaving the stuff on the counter and walking out).

quote:
Animal didn't ask for solutions to the "problem." She was venting, and I for one can completely understand her anger.

Animal asked us what we would do in the same situation. So I put what I said I would do and explained why. Sorry if it doesn't conform to what you think I should say, but allowing you to dictate my feminist response to the situation to me is hardly what I would consider empowering. And I'm into empowerment feminism, not victim feminism.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
animal
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Babbler # 1890

posted 06 August 2002 06:18 PM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you skadie . . . I think you picked up on the subtleties of the situation a lot better than most. Yes, re-reading it, it doesn't seem like such a big deal. Depending on the tone of voice you read into it, I can see how it could simply be taken as simply "couple of charmless goofs" engaging in harmless banter. Being there I can attest that the it was more a power trip on the part of the guys than anything else.

Read it with slimy, overtly sexual, intimidating voices, then take into account the power dynamics of the situation, as described by skadie, and I think most people could understand why I'd be pissed off. Besides, after being treated that way in the store, I had the pleasure of walking outside, past the customer's friends who were waiting by the door, and then walking home alone creeped out and angry.

I'd like to note that I am not the kind of person who likes to take the role of victim. In fact, I wouldn't say that I was victimized in that situation at all. I was simply pissed off and irritated by the situation and at having to constantly put up with that kind of sexist bullshit. My intent was more to comment on the state of our society, than to whine about a specific situation.


From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
animal
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Babbler # 1890

posted 06 August 2002 06:19 PM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One can never underestimate the power of the simple, pure mesSage that is conveyed through pepper spray.
"Hey baby! Nice...ARRRGGGGGHHHHHHHRRRH! MY EYES!"


Yeah! Pepper spray rules .

From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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Babbler # 1845

posted 06 August 2002 06:25 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
if you feel these men are a real threat, one that if you actually said something like "I don't like the way you're talking to me so please stop" would result in a physical attack then you should be going to the police and making a complaint.

A complaint of what?? Verbal harassment that felt intimidating, that felt it was gonna lead to an attack?? And how often have you seen that come before the courts?? Can you imagine if all the women in just the next hour did exactly what you suggest, Slick Willy!?? How many do YOU think would get anywhere past the police looking bemused??

Utopia, you live in a different universe!!!


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 06 August 2002 06:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And I'm into empowerment feminism, not victim feminism.

When were those invented? Who invented them? What are the distinctions? What's "empowerment feminism" -- Eleanor Clitheroe?

I'm sorry, Michelle -- I'm really really sorry -- but I think that was a cheap shot. And for what?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 August 2002 06:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hee. Point well taken, skdadl. It's a distinction I made off the cuff - and frankly, I don't think you have to have an established school of feminism in order to add adjectives to the word.

To me it's the difference between feeling threatened or victimized by every stupid or sexist comment a guy makes or feeling confident enough to be able to look down your nose at guys like that and shrug off stuff that doesn't harm you. It's the difference between feeling victimized by everything or only feeling victimized by things that have actually harmed you. We can talk about psychological harm caused by men who act like this clerk and the other customer did, and it's true, it could be annoying. But you can choose your reaction to that kind of thing - you can choose to brood about it and feel victimized and upset and angry, or you can choose to shrug it off, think to yourself, "what a dope", and move along with your life. I personally find the second option much more empowering.

P.S. I just read animal's last post, and it's true, it can be a lot more slimy than I've considered it. I guess I was thinking about the times I've had clerks flirt in a sexist way that was meant to be friendly and projected that onto yours. I'm not saying that this is okay behaviour on the part of men. It's true, a lot of guys act like idiots that way. I was just talking about my reaction to it when it happens to me - I feel more like a victim of bad taste than a victim of harassment when some guy flirts with me in a sexist or condescending way.

I more wrote that part about victimization or empowerment out of pique after reading skadie's comment that I was just supposed to read and affirm rather than offering my opinion on the situation if it had happened to me. Upon reading your elaboration of the incident, I think you're right - if there were a bunch of guys there who were all sneering as you walked out, then yeah, I can see where that would be intimidating. I don't like those situations either, nor do I find them funny. I guess I just didn't see that dynamic clearly when I read your original message. My apologies. I didn't mean to belittle your experience.

[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 06 August 2002 06:43 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Truce. With Michelle. For now.

Because it's pumpkin hour.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 06 August 2002 07:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One can never underestimate the power of the simple, pure mesSage that is conveyed through pepper spray.

"Hey baby! Nice...ARRRGGGGGHHHHHHHRRRH! MY EYES!"


Were you actually advocating violence against a man in response to something he says or were you just making a joke?

See, I took it as a joke and laughed, but someone who was really serious about hating violence might see that as a terrible thing to say. They might even feel threatened by it.

(Okay, not the same thing. But if we joked about ways to physically harm a woman who said something offensive, I'm sure there would be at least one person who would see it as an indirect threat rather than just a joke as the writer intended. I wouldn't be one of those people, of course.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 06 August 2002 07:24 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joke, joke, joke. I'm a guy, and I've been known to cast a lascivious eye about every now and then, so I certainly wouldn't want to have it filled with pepper spray.

I had no idea that rude remarks to women were so prevalant. I thought it was mostly the domain of construction working, mulletard types and young frat boys.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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Babbler # 826

posted 06 August 2002 07:30 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I once thought that every 16 yearold girl should be given a gun.

But then I chilled out, realising that it wasn't feasible, and now subscribe to pepperspray.

It REALLY hurts, but doesn't permanently damage their eyes. I've not yet had to use it, knock wood, but if I do, I won't feel bad about hurting their feelings.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
animal
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Babbler # 1890

posted 06 August 2002 07:35 PM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But you can choose your reaction to that kind of thing - you can choose to brood about it and feel victimized and upset and angry, or you can choose to shrug it off, think to yourself, "what a dope", and move along with your life. I personally find the second option much more empowering.

I think the second option is much more empowering to. As my grandpa used to say, "Consider the source." However, sometimes a girl just has to bitch, y'know?

quote:
I don't like those situations either, nor do I find them funny. I guess I just didn't see that dynamic clearly when I read your original message. My apologies. I didn't mean to belittle your experience.

No hard feelings! Besides, I'm far from the sensitive type . Actually, it's really great to get some moral support from a bunch of cool women who know where I'm coming from on this.

You girls rule! (and guys too . . . well, some of you anyways )


From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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Babbler # 1402

posted 06 August 2002 07:54 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
, expecting that some women would come along who'd thought of smarter measures than I have.

There is no smart way to handle this.
This is not an intellectual encounter; these are not intellectual adversaries.
Depending on the situation - numbers, relative sobriety, tone, intent, nouance - you can laugh it off and walk away, refuse the purchase and walk away, laugh and run, insult and run, just run, confront and walk away... or confront and fight.
Karate classes were a good idea. Too bad most of us quit when the instructor became patronizing, romantic or sadistic.

I hate to say this, but there isn't all that much a lone woman (especially if young, small and unarmed) can do in a situation where several yahoos make her the target of their fun. Walk softly and lead a brace of Rotweilers?

The education of males is women's country up to the age of 8 or 10; after that, it falls in the masculine domain. Their fathers and uncles have to whap them upside the head when they're disrespectful; their peers have to shun them when they're embarrassingly stupid. We simply can't do it all on our own.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
animal
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Babbler # 1890

posted 06 August 2002 08:02 PM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nothing helps put a little extra boost of confidence in your step like a nice compact canister of pepper spray!

I haven't ever had to use mine, but I did have just an itty-bitty tiny taste of what it's like and it's not nice. I left mine in my then-boyfriend's car and (I will never be able to fully understand some boys ) he couldn't help but try it out. I think he sprayed it at a tree. He said the spray was dyed red and it was "cool". Yeah. He was, um, 24. Anyway, when he gave it back to me (without telling me what he'd done) there were some traces on the container and I unknowingly got some in my eyes. Mmm hmm. That was fun .

I now defintely have more respect for the power of the stuff. I certainly wouldn't use it indiscriminately, but it's nice to know I have it on me . . . just in case.


From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 06 August 2002 08:20 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So do they. Arms-races suck.
Still, i keep getting flashbacks of Thelma and Louise.

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skadie
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Babbler # 2072

posted 06 August 2002 08:31 PM      Profile for skadie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In one case the guy is making a complimentary comment (she looks 16 and I like her) and in the other he's saying something uncomplimentary (she looks fat and I don't want to serve her).


Once again:
WHY is looking sixteen a compliment???? ESPECIALLY in a situation where youth will limit your choices. And WHY is a guy saying he likes you (without knowing you) a compliment? Who the hell cares if the store clerk likes you or not? You're only going in there to get a product. Not to be rated worthy or unworthy of his services.


quote:
I more wrote that part about victimization or empowerment out of pique after reading skadie's comment that I was just supposed to read and affirm rather than offering my opinion on the situation if it had happened to me.

Sorry if that is what you took from my post, Michelle. It was unintended.


From: near the ocean | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 06 August 2002 10:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, no problem.

And you have a point - frankly, I'm quite happy to be getting out of my 20's this year, and was more than happy to get out of the teen years, so looking 16 isn't the biggest compliment in the world for me either. Then again, a lot of men THINK that's a great compliment, so if some guy who thinks looking young is a great thing tells me that I look young (ha, that practically never happens since I don't look young) then I take it as a compliment. As for a clerk telling you he likes you, well, when I was a cashier, I would occasionally joke around with the customers too. Apparently that wasn't the case with animal since she said they were sneering over it, and I'm a great believer in listening to your gut and acting accordingly in situations like that as well.

quote:
However, sometimes a girl just has to bitch, y'know?

Hey, I know all about it. I do enough of it myself.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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Babbler # 387

posted 07 August 2002 12:49 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I got the impression that Animal felt she had reason to feel threatened, especially when it was the guy in line who wanted to see her ID. I want to clarify something here too. I live in a rough neighbourhood. There are some guys I would not feel threatened by, even using the same words, and some I would. Our corner store guys tease with the women around here all the time, but we've also known them a few years. If a stranger banters us, their reaction can often tell us if it's harmless or not.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
dee
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Babbler # 983

posted 07 August 2002 11:19 AM      Profile for dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nothing helps put a little extra boost of confidence in your step like a nice compact canister of pepper spray!
I haven't ever had to use mine, but I did have just an itty-bitty tiny taste of what it's like and it's not nice. I left mine in my then-boyfriend's car and (I will never be able to fully understand some boys ) he couldn't help but try it out.

HA! Something similar happened to me too. I was at a friend's party and someone had brought some pepper spray and for some reason took it out to show us. One of the guys (think macho Cuban type guy) at the table couldn't resist so he sprayed a tiny bit onto his hands. He smelled it a bit and said that he didn't think it would be too awful. Then he went inside to wash off his hands. The next time I took a sip of my drink I found that some of the particles of pepper spray had blown into my drink. It was pretty spicy!

I went inside to give the guy hell for ruining my (newly poured) drink, only to find him reeling in pain in the kitchen. Seems that he had rubbed his face with his hands before he washed them off and got an eyeful of the stuff.

Luckily my friend who was giving the party had been a street medic at some protests and new what to do. He never thought he'd have to treat anyone for pepper spray in his own house!


From: pleasant, unemotional conversation aids digestion | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
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Babbler # 2193

posted 07 August 2002 02:06 PM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems to me, that along with the passage of time and the evolvement of the street whistle, the cheesy come ons have evolved too. Used to be a woman walked by a construction site, she got whistled at. (and still do). But now, having evolved from the simple whistle, we get men, who likely don't get the girl very often, using cocky language and sexual innuendo. What a shock! street whistles have evolved with time too!

And women are not so innocent. They may be quieter about thier leers and jeers, but they do it too. They check out guys like they are buying a side of beef, no different than a man who runs the eyes up and down a woman. I've seen women whipser to their friends about a guy who walked by and they all turn and leer and usually make comments like "I wouldn't throw him out of bed for eating crackers" or something equally cheesy.

I don't understand getting all bent out of shape over comments made out of macho bravado. Odds are, these same guys, if alone, are not nearly so brave with their comments. I know it's terrible to be noticed and there is something you can do. If you don't like the comments you can ignore them and move on or you can retort and keep the cheesy conversation going even after you leave. Your choice. No pepper spray needed for that one.


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
dee
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Babbler # 983

posted 07 August 2002 02:24 PM      Profile for dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Absolutely, Shelby, but how often do you think that comments made by women feel threatening to the men they are speaking to/about?

There is a huge difference in being appreciative of someone's looks and showing it in an annoying way and being threatening and/or intimidating by making sexual comments.

Of course women look too. But how often do women follow unknown men home? How often do they tell an unknown man that their only problem is that they need to get laid? Or yell out that some guy probably has a great dick?


From: pleasant, unemotional conversation aids digestion | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
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Babbler # 2845

posted 07 August 2002 03:06 PM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm into empowerment feminism, not victim feminism.

without wanting to belabour this point, i see this as a false distinction, and even as a harmful one. which "school" of feminism is into victimizing women? i don't think that pointing out the ways that our misogynist culture makes victims out of women is inconsistent with an empowering feminist analysis. if anything, having the "facts" is the first step to combatting one's oppression. i do not view feminism as a homogeneous, monolithic intellectual and political movement. and individuals have the prerogative to invent their own feminisms: as ani difranco sings, "every move i make is a woman's movement." what compelled me to remark that i thought this is a forum for discussion from a feminist point of view was this statement:

quote:
Skdadl sorry you're a wimp. Don't be, it's one of the things that makes you a target.

not only does this diminish the experience of women (and men) participating in this discussion, it reflects a mentality that is not informed by the facts, let alone by feminist principles. the statistics are harrowing. "street smarts" (which i presume is what this post is recommending we develop) will only get you so far in a social context where a woman is more likely to be assaulted in her home than in some dark alley. the proliferation of violence against women, both in "real" life and in our cultural products, requires feminist attention, not anti-feminist wisecracks. i view acts that violate women as falling along a continuum. it may seem innocuous for a store clerk to infantalize an adult woman making a transaction, until you consider that this is not an isolated incident, but part of the panorama of trivialization, sexualization, truncation, diminishment, abuse, violation, that constitutes the background of women's experience. such moments of being interpellated as an inferior other serve to remind me, at least, of the existence of this subtext.


From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
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Babbler # 2193

posted 07 August 2002 06:18 PM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Men, not all men, but a great portion of them, are and always have been the agressors. Why is this such a shock to women! Of course women don't usually follow strange men home, but I've known more than a few who've stalked some poor guy who they deemd to be a total hottie. And how come women get away with hitting thier male counterparts? There's a court case you don't see very often! Give me a break, Lorena Bobbit slices off her husband's penis and she get counselling and essentially a slap on the wrist? Had the tables been turned, he would have been jailed for attempted murder.

My point was simple. Men who are agressive be it verbally or physically will exist until the end of time. You can either fight it until then, or let it drop and not feed the fire. Sure you have a right to be peeved when a target of such slimey stuff. But why rave about it for years! Jeez, let it go already! I'm not saying women who are being abused don't deserve help in getting out. They do. But why is it that there are special rules for women who are abused, but not for men? If all things are supposed to be equal, then all rules should apply evenly. I get so peeved about "Take Back the Night" or "Street" when men are not allowed to participate even in support. It implies that all men are evil and should discluded from "Women's" events. That's ridiculous. I read about an all women's rock and roll concert, if men tried that there would be hell to pay!

So no, we aren't the innocents we seem. Perhaps we have better manners in our leers and jeers, but how is that men's fault?


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 07 August 2002 06:38 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
I find your posts in particularly bad taste, Shelby, because they imply there is some sort of equality between men and women and how they treat each other. All the power structures pretty much
seem male-dominated or male-oriented, and domestic violence and rape is so overwhelmingly male against female that there is a real big problem and it is, practically without exception, male.

Often the women who do become violent (not all) have been maltreated and abused by the men they attack.

In addition, there is a basic physical difference that means identical words said by a woman to/about a man WILL feel different when said by a man to/about a woman.

Sure, women shouldn't be victims and shouldn't let this ruin, or as much as possible, even affect their lives, but frankly, that still avoids the main issue and again puts the responsibility back on the women to change how they react and feel rather than the men to change their attitudes and how they act, which is the real and actual problem.


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 07 August 2002 07:00 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting notion: these types of advances (I'm speaking mostly of the wolf-whistles, cheesy "hey baby" come-ons and such, not the genuinely threatening, being-followed-down-the-street variety) are not actually intended as sexual advances. The men who do these have no intention or expectation of "getting' the girl. Mainly it's a display, similar to the chest pounding among young primates. These young fellas (and the older ones who haven't, ahem, evolved) are trying to impress the other young males around with a display of bravado and, as they see it, sexual confidence. So they don't really consider it as a threatening gesture, just a "Dude! Check me out!" kinda thing. Again, that's some, not all. To sum up, as a wise man once said to me: "When you're young, you've got balls the size of grapefruits and brains the size of walnuts."
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 08 August 2002 01:02 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But the guys who get away with this while young and strutting rarely seem to learn not to continue this behaviour when they get bigger and more threatening-looking. That's part of the problem. We aren't talking about innocent teasing here, we're talking about things that appear threatening to the woman.

As far as men participating in take back the night, a large number of the women have had enough abuse to be afraid of all men and might feel just as threatened by a man being supportive. Many who were abused as children were told things like it was to help or teach them or for their good. There is no room for trust for them until the healing is done. They shouldn't have to have men intruding on their space when they're trying to do something for themselves.

If men want to support that movement, why can't they stage something of their own, a men-only march or something in a different part of the city?


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skadie
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posted 08 August 2002 01:48 AM      Profile for skadie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My point was simple. Men who are agressive be it verbally or physically will exist until the end of time. You can either fight it until then, or let it drop and not feed the fire.

Feel free to "let it drop" Shelby9, I for one will fight it until the end of time.

A web page linked to earlier by anna_c might enlighten you a bit.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]


From: near the ocean | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 08 August 2002 02:05 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We have no choice but to keep fighting against violent acts, no matter who they are against. The data supports women having been victimized more often and more severely than men. In order to do this, we also have to fight against the belief that women deserve derogatory treatment and "boys will be boys" mentality. Don't forget, the majority of males who have been abused have suffered because of the same type of thinking that causes the abuse of females.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 08 August 2002 02:19 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Objectively speaking, I agree that this behaviour is intolerable. When approached with a complaint of "This man made me feel uncomfortable" a policeman SHOULD react.

Subjectively speaking, I knew a girl who bought pepper-spray to ward off offenders and started using it in the hallways of school to get people out of her way. I know another girl who found come-ons offensive from unpleasant looking men, but welcomed from "hot" men. The men were never told which category they belong in. I personally have been in a situation where I was at a table with a group of hetero females and gay males who were ogling and cat-calling men. It sickened me.

How can we mend the rift between objective and subjective? How can we ensure the police and society listen to every harrassment complaint and at the same time ensure that the complaints are all real and not made up (which does happen from time-to-time).


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
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posted 08 August 2002 03:01 AM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't expect to be agreed with.

It just seems to me that ranting about the injustices men have placed on women with their catty calls and less-than-tactful come-ons has gotten women nowhere. The more women complain, the worse it seems to get.

I've been both physically abused and verbally abused. I am on of the least violent people I know. I know first hand what those kinds of abuses do to a woman's mind. But I also know violence solves nothing. Be it physical or verbal.

Being maltreated or abused is no excuse for violence in my book. That's just my humble opinion. There is no excuse for violence, period. I don't care what your gender or what your excuse is.


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
skadie
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posted 08 August 2002 04:21 AM      Profile for skadie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

There is no excuse for violence, period. I don't care what your gender or what your excuse is.


Well, we definitely agree on that.


From: near the ocean | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 08 August 2002 04:54 AM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
Excuse is different from reasons - we can at least understand why a woman abused over years and years at home may eventually turn violent against their oppressor. The law, I believe, has provocation as one of its defences, so there is legal precedent.

quote:
When approached with a complaint of "This man made me feel uncomfortable" a policeman SHOULD react

How?


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
dale cooper
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posted 08 August 2002 11:28 AM      Profile for dale cooper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was speaking more generally. I don't know if a policeman should go and arrest a store clerk for making harrassing comments, but I do think that we should be on high alert for when these situations pop up. Is anything going to be done to the clerk whose comments started this string? No. Despite the fact that he WAS abusing his (limited) power and purposely making a fellow human being feel uncomfortable.

I'm suggesting that something should be done, no matter how seemingly harmless it was. Start out by once saying that his actions make you uncomfortable, because some people are pretty ignorant and don't understand how this could be. Once this has been made known, and if he still refuses to be pleasant, then something more drastic should be done. Blow up his house, picket the store until he is fired, put him in a women's jail for a day with a sign explaining his crime, who knows. But something.


From: Another place | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 08 August 2002 12:03 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If we're talking about involving the cops, I think we need to make some distinctions between genuinely threatening behavior and general boorishness.

I understand hoots, hollers, catcalls, etc. can make a woman feel uncomfortable, but going to the cops because a construction worker whistled at you is a case of overkill.

I don't like the involvement police already have in our lives (see the case of the condom bearing Catholic at WYD for an example), and I have no desire to give them any more leeway. I also expect that involving the cops in a case like, say, animal's encounter at the counter (a great name for a title fight BTW) devalues those cases where genuinely threatening behavior is exhibited.

I'm sure most people can pick up when someone's bahavior goes from obnoxious to dangerous. And of course it depends on the situation as well.

One last thought: if I'm walking down the street and a group of males starts talking shit to me, could I then go to the cops if such behavior made me "uncomfortable"?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 08 August 2002 12:04 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like the women's jail. Good idea.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 08 August 2002 12:15 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In addition, there is a basic physical difference that means identical words said by a woman to/about a man WILL feel different when said by a man to/about a woman.

So what would that basic physical difference be?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 08 August 2002 12:57 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I personally have been in a situation where I was at a table with a group of hetero females and gay males who were ogling and cat-calling men. It sickened me.

What you saw was an example of giving back in kind. It works with some guys.

I don't like violence in any situation but when it's a matter of life or death, any avenue is acceptable. One of the problems with women fighting back is that they get charged with assault as well or even instead of the abuser. There have been a few newsworthy events of this in recent months but none available as a sample right now. We're told in defence classes that you have to totally disable the abuser but in reality, we are charged for undue force or some such thing.


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 08 August 2002 12:59 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what would that basic physical difference be?

Men, on average, are bigger, more thickset, more muscular and taller than women.


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
dee
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posted 08 August 2002 01:08 PM      Profile for dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly, Apemantus. As a small woman I don't think that any obnoxious words from my mouth would be terribly threatening to a stranger (not that I'm generally overly obnoxious). It feels much different when the other person is twice your size.
From: pleasant, unemotional conversation aids digestion | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 08 August 2002 01:09 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slick, if you can't name even one basic, physical difference between women and men, that might explain the dirty looks you get in the women's washroom
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 08 August 2002 01:13 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been away for awhile and missed the interesting discussion!

I live in the same area as Animal and am treated exactly the same way.( I even smoke the same brand of cigs )

I honestly think that the Whyte Ave area where we are treated to this kind of nonsense is unique. Sure it used to happen when I was 16 and living in Suburbian Calgary, but it wasn't as scary, and wasn't nearly as frequent.


Whyte Ave is a young, urban party stroll where anything and everything can happen. It's like the twilight zone where people feel free from the norm, even though there are more cops per capita on Whyte than flies in shit.

When walking over to Animals place, I consciously try to dress poorly and to appear invisible so that nobody notices me. I know I should be happy for myself that I am noticed, but what do we discuss feminism and human rights, and equality for? People just want to be treated the same as everyone else. If I wanted to get noticed and gawked at by slimy varmits, I'd fucking go naked down the street. It is most definitely a power trip on behalf of the "perps".

I HAVE told people to shut the fuck up when shouted at. Once they actually did shut up and looked like fools, but most of the time I get called a bitch. Everyone else around me thinks I am some crazy girl. I know it is not the right approach and I ma scared shitless while doing it.

I've tried the other as well. When aguy shouts " hey baby, you go girl!" I'll just politely say " hey" and smile. That is probably the easiest way to deal with my fear. You can't always respond to some of the comments though, especially when they are overtly sexual.

Animal has spurred a great discussion and from all the things I have read and learned on this thread, I am still convinced that having a competition on who can look the most unattractive while walking to the farmers market is the current solution. I want to celebrate who I am, but it is too scary.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 08 August 2002 01:25 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Men, on average, are bigger, more thickset, more muscular and taller than women.

So how is a small man being intimidated or threatened by a large woman different?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 08 August 2002 01:25 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My elder daughter is 17, and considered exceptionally attractive. Yesterday we drove up to Wasaga Beach with a friend, and while my friend and I hung out on the beach and chased my baby daughter around the 17 year old went looking in the shops along the strip.

When she got back, she told me: one guy followed her as she went from store to store, then finally sexually propositioned her. Male clerks in at least one store came on to her. Another guy walking by her intentionally touched her in a provocative way. Numerous men ogled her.

Sure, Wasaga Beach is a cheesy kind of place, but the unwanted sexual attention my daughter receives is almost constant whenever she goes out in public. Sometimes men even try to pick her up when she's with me (and boy do I give them the sharp edge of my tongue, the stupid fuckers). Sometimes they're older men who try to lure her to their homes with promises of booze and drugs. It's been happening since she was about 14, and she's learned to deal with it, mostly because the sheer volume of attention has forced her to deal. It annoys her mostly, and on occasion it makes her nervous (at which point she will let a 'safe' person know that she's being harassed). She's as street-proofed as she can be, careful and aware of where she is and what time it is when she's out alone. I've lost alot of sleep worrying about whether she can handle herself, even though I know she's pretty tough and has a powerful instinct for self-preservation.

I had to deal with much of the same when I was her age, but my own non-scientific comparison study seems to indicate that this kind of public harassment as become more pervasive and more aggressive. It makes me wonder what my youngest daughter will have to deal with when she's older. Roving rape gangs?

I suspect that the sheer influx of confusing sexual images in advertising, the comodification of sexuality, the overt sexualization of young girls (think Britney Spears as a 16 year old sex moppet), the music industry's overuse of sexual imagery in the marketing of pop music. It frankly amazes me that any child coming of age in the 21st century hasn't been irrevocably warped by all of this crap, considering that they are constantly exposed to sexual imagery, yet probably only have a passing acquaintance with healthy sexuality.

Sometimes I'm so disgusted that I want to go all medieval-commando-terrorist feminist and firebomb ad agencies and major record labels, because that's the only thing I think would register with those soulless greedy bastards who are warping society and its children. Our future, by the way.

But I digress. And rant.

By the skin of my teeth, I've managed to produce a nearly-adult young woman with a healthy attitude towards sex, and an almost-healthy body image and self-confidence. I've been lucky. I didn't have any boys, but if I had I wouldn've done my best to raise a man capable of liking and respecting women. But surely, given the corruption of consumer society, my efforts wouldn't go far in changing male violence or women's victimization or passivity in the face of it.

Even strong, self-confident women get raped and beaten.

It'll require a much bigger effort to address male violence against women, a unified effort of men and women who care about the kind of world our children will inherit, who won't buy products peddled by a scantily-clad anorexic 14 year old, who'll pay attention to what their boys (and girls) are exposed to. Maybe then we'll begin to scratch the surface of why a small percentage of men harass and inflict sexual violence on a large number of girls and women.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 08 August 2002 01:31 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So how is a small man being intimidated or threatened by a large woman different?

It isn't necessarily, but there is a long history known to both sides of men intimidating women, there is an awareness that female violence against men is extremely rare in comparison to male against women (thus women already may feel more intimidated and men less so, just because of the effects statistics have). Many of the power structures and many of the images of power are male-oriented, all of which may inform the response.

A small man being intimidated by a big woman is pretty fucking rare, the opposite is far too common. That is the main difference.


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 08 August 2002 01:43 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A small man being intimidated by a big woman is pretty fucking rare, the opposite is far too common. That is the main difference.

So why is it excusable if it is rare?

Why isn't getting rid of violence the goal rather than getting rid of violence against women?

Little is said against violence between men or violence between women. Male children are raised to be violent in our society and as they get older it is glorified, it pays well and tough guys and more often now girls are portraied as heros and winners,
as Dee mentioned.

So why should vilifying an aspect of something we glorify going to solve the problem?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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posted 08 August 2002 01:47 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough that men can be subject to the same abuses as women are. However, I don't see any constructive solutions coming from you Slick. And please, don't tell me the playing field is level.

And even if it was, abuse is abuse and it is not a nice thing.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 08 August 2002 01:58 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
Slick, policy is always having to make choices at where to target resources. Sadly, not all things can be dealt with at all times. Violence is indeed a problem (and men against men is frighteningly high, especially linked to alcohol), but when considering both where to target resources, it must also be considered what is the most pressing, most urgent problem, and what will be most effective in reducing it.

Reducing violence in men is essential to both violence by men against women and against men. Both of those are major, huge problems. Violence by women against men is in comparison, minute. Concentrating resources on reducing female violence would be resources wasted IN COMPARISON to concentrating it on reducing male violence. Unless we have unlimited resources, choices have to be made, and they have to be made on sensible choices about what can be achieved and what needs to be achieved.

So, sorry, but violence by women against men is pretty much a nonstarter on that basis.


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 08 August 2002 02:28 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Levels of violence among girls and young women have risen over the past 10 years. Any efforts to decrease the level of violence in society would be best served by directing them towards both boys and girls. As already pointed out, we live in a violent society - I'd go so far as to say that we, as a species, are murderously violent and destructive. We don't need to be, but we haven't yet devised a way of cultivating our species leading, eventually, to a non-violent society of humans, even though we really don't have any practical use for physical violence anymore. Arguably, we're no worse than we've ever been, but I think it's about time we did something about it. As much as I loathe the concept of social engineering, I don't think a little engineering with the aim of decreasing violence would be amiss.
From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 08 August 2002 02:54 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're totally right Rebecca. This culture needs an enemma.

Y'know. I don't think we'll own a tv if we have children. I'm going to run away and live in the woods.

Work has been really bad lately, just had some poor guy with terminal cancer call in. His IE is running out in less than six weeks, and his disability won't kick in for four months or so. HRDC is refusing to extend his EI. He's paid into it for over 20 years, and there's a 31 billion dollar surplus, but this guy can't get a few weeks extension... and I don't think I can help him either. I've had three similar calls today, and this is the "slow" session. I can't imagine being a nurse or a firefighter, I'd lose it.

Parents who are concerned about violence and the warping of our society: how do you stay sane ???

I'm seriously considering not having any after working here and learning all I have.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 08 August 2002 02:58 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Folks might find the discussion on this thread informative. It's directly related to the issue at hand.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 08 August 2002 03:06 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for that!! You gotta give Slick credit for one thing (and one thing only!):

he does persevere in the face of some pretty fierce opposition!!

That was the thread I was hoping to read.

And Skdadl, it is exactly that potential leap to "she was asking for it!" that worries me about people who put the responsibility for preventing violence on the victims rather than the perpetrators. Glad someone else made the point!!


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 08 August 2002 03:54 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Parents who are concerned about violence and the warping of our society: how do you stay sane ???
You learn that there are some paths you don't travel when it comes to thinking about some of the more horrible things that can happen to your child. You JUST DON'T GO THERE.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 08 August 2002 04:39 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sadly, not all things can be dealt with at all times. Violence is indeed a problem (and men against men is frighteningly high, especially linked to alcohol), but when considering both where to target resources, it must also be considered what is the most pressing, most urgent problem, and what will be most effective in reducing it.

Okay, but isn't consistancy a very good method of making change in behaviour? If you feel that is correct, then shouldn't the focus be on putting an end to all violence rather than glorify some violence and condeming other parts of it? To me that seems like a contradiction rather than consistancy. So if that is the case them isn't that going to make change all the harder to bring about?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 08 August 2002 05:00 PM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
What violence am I advocating should be glorified?? All violence should be vilified and I don't believe I have ever said otherwise, but when it comes to where resources should be targetted and where energy should be concentrated, there is a very specfic, nasty and lethal problem of male violence against women and it requires different measures than that necessary to stop female violence against men. Trying to stop all violence at all times is not only very difficult, it is a very vague goal. The less focussed the goal, the harder it is to achieve it. Domestic violence, abuse, rape - these are specific goals about which specific measures can be taken that have effects.

Trying to eradicate male violence against women is not easy, but it is easier than trying to eradicate all violence. More lives can be saved if we concentrate on the former than if we aim for the latter alone, without distinguishing. It's a shame but it is the reality.

If you can't understand that, well, I guess you are just a slick prick!


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 08 August 2002 05:06 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slick, jokes aside, I haven't seen anyone glorifying violence in this discussion. I think everyone can agree on a few basic points here:

1. Violence, regardless of the race, sex etc. of victim and perpatrator, is unacceptable in a civilized and elightened society.

2. Society as a whole is overly tolerant of violence.

3. It is the responsibility of each and every individual to do their part to work against violence in our society.

I think this is pretty fair, no?

I have to disagree with you here Apemantus. While all the issues you mentioned are very serious, I think a lot of that could be addressed by a broad based condemnation of violence. After all, you don't have to look far in the mass media to find examples of female-on-male violence being marketed as "empowerment." The "all violence is bad" message is one we need to get across, otherwise people have a lot of moral flexibility to decide "okay violence against women is bad, but violence against other men is okay."

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 08 August 2002 05:14 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After re-reading Ape's post, I can now that he's talking about tactical solutions to eliminating specific forms of violence, as oppossed to a strategic, long-range approach. Which is fine in it's own right. There.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
animal
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posted 08 August 2002 05:19 PM      Profile for animal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When walking over to Animals place, I consciously try to dress poorly and to appear invisible so that nobody notices me. . . I want to celebrate who I am, but it is too scary.

I think that's sad . I think women should be free to celebrate our beauty (and power!) in our society without fearing being harrassed.
quote:
Sometimes I'm so disgusted that I want to go all medieval-commando-terrorist feminist and firebomb ad agencies and major record labels, because that's the only thing I think would register with those soulless greedy bastards who are warping society and its children.

I'm with Rebecca on this one. Sometimes it's hard not to feel that way.

From: the boreal forest | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
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posted 08 August 2002 05:31 PM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Had the tables been turned, he would have been jailed for attempted murder.

just like o.j. simpson? andrea dworkin's comments on the murder of nicole brown simpsonhere.

from the ottawa rape crisis center newsletter:

quote:
In Canada in 1998, 82.6% of victims in reported cases of sexual assault were women and 98% of the accused were men (Juristat: Canadian Crime Statistics, 1998, vol.9.no.9). In 70% of the reported cases of sexual assault, the victim knew the accused; 62% of the victims were under 18 years of age. We must keep in mind however, [these] statistics refer only to the cases that have been reported, the reality is only 1 in 10 sexual assaults is reported to the police.

for the full text.

sexual assault, domestic violence, and rape are gendered forms of violence. i'd also like to comment on this statement:

quote:
After all, you don't have to look far in the mass media to find examples of female-on-male violence being marketed as "empowerment."

i would suggest that this is a distinctivelly anti-feminist trend.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: anna_c ]


From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 August 2002 05:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find it interesting in that link to the article about OJ and domestic violence that it was the women jurors who were indifferent to the violence and let the abusers get away with it.

You can bet your bottom dollar those would have been hung juries at least, had I been on them.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
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posted 08 August 2002 05:57 PM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i agree, michelle, it's very interesting. this is dworkin's explanation:

quote:
The governing reality for women of all races is that there is no escape from male violence, because it is inside and outside, intimate and predatory. While race hate has been expressed through forced segregation, woman hate is expressed through forced closeness, which makes punishment swift, easy and sure. In private, women often empathize with one another, across race and class, because their experiences with men are so much the same. But in public, including on juries, women rarely dare. For this reason, no matter how many women are battered--no matter how many football stadiums battered women could fill on any given day--each one is alone.

i think one other explanation is that a majority of women assent to or internalize misogynist values as an adaptive mechanism.


From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 08 August 2002 06:02 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I watched that whole trial and read two books on it. I'm still shaking my head.
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 August 2002 06:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you (and Dworkin) are probably right, anna_c.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 08 August 2002 08:01 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
i think one other explanation is that a majority of women assent to or internalize misogynist values as an adaptive mechanism.

Another possibility, which got some discussion at the time, was the fact that there were several black women on the jury. The prosecutor thought they'd be sympathetic to a victim of violence at the hands of a black man. In fact the opposite was more likely true, given that the victim was a white woman they were inclined to regard as an 'interloper.' I don't know whether it was actual jury members, or simply black women in LA who so characterized Nicole Brown Simpson, but it was said in the press more than once.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
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posted 08 August 2002 10:15 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The "all violence is bad" message is one we need to get across...

I would amend that to say all undeserved violence. Some people deserve to be hurt. Mass murderers, war criminals, serial rapists and child molesters for example.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]


From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
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posted 09 August 2002 02:58 AM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Another possibility, which got some discussion at the time, was the fact that there were several black women on the jury.

absolutely. this was a controversy in both feminist and mainstream discussions of the issue at the time, as i recall. the african american community was (at least in the popular press) calling the prosecution of simpson a persecution, indeed a vilification of a black man, and claimed that (perhaps quite correctly) were his alleged victim a black woman, the case would have been had been handled differently. however, racial politics do not overrule or negate sexual politics. what's interesting is that the effect of the jury's decision was to, in at least a symbolic sense, entrench male privilege. the legal and the social precedent this case set, the message it sent, did not in the least benefit black women.

From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
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posted 09 August 2002 03:17 AM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would amend that to say all undeserved violence. Some people deserve to be hurt. Mass murderers, war criminals, serial rapists and child molesters for example.

No, they don't. They deserve to be treated, locked up and prevented. Let's not go back to the dark ages, with public lynchings and crowds baying for blood! Child molesters (mostly themselves molested as children) have completely twisted thinking about their sexuality etc. They need help, treatment and prevention, not violence. The mark of a civilised society is how it treats its worst. Let's leave the middle ages where they belong.


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 09 August 2002 09:34 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What violence am I advocating should be glorified?? All violence should be vilified and I don't believe I have ever said otherwise,

I don't think that you personally are walking about with your sign that says "Hurt more people, it's glorious" Apemantis. When I say you and we some times it is meant in the "royal" sense you and we collectively or all of us as a society.

I hope that has cleared up the misunderstanding.

I fail to see the reason in promoting violence (as a society) and once the majority of people are hyped up about it, what we expect to accomplish when we (as a society) then say well violence is usually bad unless it is under some circumstance that no one is going to tall you about.

How many slasher movies are being released this year? How many pornos will be produced where women are shown in subserviant positions with violence against them added in (simulated or real)? How many video games will be released this year showing violent acts against women?

It is common place to see a man hit a woman in a movie these days but it seems to me that we (as a society) are told it is ok now because you know that grrl is going to step right up and do some nasty kung fu shit on that bad mother's ass.

Perhaps realism is the missing key. But isn't there real tv type programs available now that show real people fighting including women?

I always thought that if you watch a movie with violence in it, there would be no problem and actually I think that still is true. But the difference is that we (as a society) are flooded with it from the first hour we wake till the last hour before we go back to sleep.

As you may know, I have just resently quit smoking.
I know from first hand experience that in order for me to quit, I had to remove all the things that enabled me to smoke from around me for a while. Like ashtrays, cigarette packages, lighters, and most importantly, smokers. Now I am fine around a smoker as long as it isn't too long a time period.

My point with this is that I don't think we can stop violence against anyone while there is so much of it around us all the time. Further, like smoking, I don't think we can stop violence against women while a flood of violence against everything there is is going on all around us. I'm not saying it is impossible, I just don't think it will happen this way.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Apemantus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1845

posted 09 August 2002 09:58 AM      Profile for Apemantus        Edit/Delete Post
I'll agree with you on some of that.

But whilst we must campaign to try and end the abundance of violence on all levels of society, we cannot let what violence there is be an excuse for what some people do. Not all men have to be ignorant, oppressive, violent, macho show-offs, and it is as much the attitude (hidden under which is the objectification of women) as the actions that need dealing with.

I am all for ending pornography, violence, glorification of the female body over the female mind etc., but I don't think fighting ignorant male attitudes has to wait for that battle to be won. I think we can try and achieve something on all levels, at the same time. Sure, it makes the task a lot harder, but it doesn't mean we should stand still, and pessimistically wait for better self-censorship etc.

I am not completely sure, because some steps do seem to have been backwards, but when you look at a woman's life, on average, nowadays, compared to one 100 or 50 or 30 years ago, it seems there is a difference. Hell, in the UK, rape within marriage only became a crime in 1993!!! We are at the start of a very long struggle, not the end of it.

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Apemantus ]


From: Brighton, UK | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 09 August 2002 10:29 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am all for ending pornography, violence, glorification of the female body over the female mind etc., but I don't think fighting ignorant male attitudes has to wait for that battle to be won.

I think the battle is fighting ignorant attitudes rather than fighting ignorant male attitudes.

Racism is a problem. But it is being fought and racism is losing. Sure there is alot to do still but there has been progress.

I see this as a similar problem. Do you think that we would be at the point we are now with racism if we only said racism against Asian people must stop, yes racism against Black people is not very nice either but racism against Asians has to stop right now.

I know that sounds a bit goofy but this is what the argument to end violence against women sounds like to me and I am sure others. Of course for the full effect we would have to have hundreds of movies and tv shows each year showing how some bad ass Blacks team up with some sicko Whites roll into the peacefull Asian town to kill Asians and force them into poverty by refusing them work and such but I think you get the point here.

So aren't we as a society in effect saying "here have a cookie here have a cookie here have a cookie SMACK! You can't have that cookie you bad person! here have a cookie" And all the while thinking we are working at solving the problem?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 09 August 2002 10:57 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is now 100 posts, so I'm closing it.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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