The NDP policies posted on their website have been pretty weak this election compared to the last election. All the pages keep mentioning “After 12 years: The Liberal record”.

We've had Conservative trolls on babble since last spring asking, "how can you prop up this corrupt government?" To be sure, Liberals never have NDP's best interests at heart, but the Conservatives sure don't either.

Some of us didn't want this election. Some others are naive enough to believe that a powerless 25-seat caucus is better than a powerful 18-seat caucus.

The thing is, the election was never, ever about the NDP. I'm not saying NDP supporters should rush to the Liberals. It's the Liberal supporters who've gone to the Cons, and there's not a damn thing the NDP and its supporters can do about it but sit here and watch.

More importantly, we have the possibility of crystalizing the position of necessary support in a minority government. The more Canadians get used to that, the more the practice of "strategic voting" will lessen.

In a minority situation, there is also a solid prospect of electoral reform and proportional representation, a huge advance in Canada.

Of course, we might not achieve a minority situation. Majority government by one of the other parties is possible.

At a time when other parties are coming up with specific things to talk about, Jack isn't being specific enough. Candidates need detailed policies to run on. We can't keep saying "we had ONE budget". The Liberal budgets, as useless as they often are, have like 100 of them.

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Originally posted by snowmandn:

At a time when other parties are coming up with specific things to talk about, Jack isn't being specific enough. Candidates need detailed policies to run on. We can't keep saying "we had ONE budget". The Liberal budgets, as useless as they often are, have like 100 of them.

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With all due respect, where the hell are you getting this from??? Jack has talked tons of policy, at just about every campaign stop. He's laid out his plans for healthcare, post-secondary education, the environment, national pharmacy program, additional funding for military housing and increased pay, etc, etc, etc...

In any event, my point is that campaigns have ebbs and flows, and the polls reflect that. If the Cons have a six-point lead two weeks from now, then I'd be concerned.

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josh, be gentle. Some of us might be a little too excitable, but then, there IS something that separates voting in Canada from voting in the U.S. Who wins here can actually make a difference in how the country is run.
Heh.

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[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: josh ]

Where do you live? If you lived in Kootenay-Columbia you would get it easily as it's in the NDP's face when you talk to forestry workers, farmers and other working class people.

Dippers are in some sort of denial of how the world 'IS' as opposed to how it 'SHOULD' be.

The NDP should have spent all their effort between blowing holes in the CPC lies and policy nonsense, and pushing their own policies ... at worst it would have resulted in exactly what's happening now ... the most expected results would have been to discourage the CPC voters and give the Libs and NDP a larger number of combined seats ... at best it would have discouraged the CPC and allowed the frightened left leaners that only vote Liberal for fear of a CPC government to move towards the NDP.

Anyway, the NDP would royally fuck up the country. They'd pull us out of NORAD, NATO, NAFTA, OAS, and any other collective organizations out there except the UN. They'd jack up taxes on the middle class. They'd jack up taxes on businesses, which would just push them to Mexico or China. Paradoxically, the auto, mining, lumber, smelting, and other big polluters would be given all kinds of tax breaks to protect the union jobs.

I guess I'm more picky about certain areas. He has a lot of numbers out, a lot of policies, but I guess what I'm looking for is--

There's a ton of fiscal room in the next few years--how are we going to spend all that? Like we had the last time--"projected economic growth at W%. Tax X more dollars (not important this time), spend Y more dollars and where".

"Perhaps Jack has not gone about the best way when it comes to projecting the message,"

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Originally posted by RUredE:
Kevin Laddle "I really don't get it."

Where do you live? If you lived in Kootenay-Columbia you would get it easily as it's in the NDP's face when you talk to forestry workers, farmers and other working class people.

Dippers are in some sort of denial of how the world 'IS' as opposed to how it 'SHOULD' be.

Go out ont he street here and say two words 'Svend Robinson' and it sums up how out of touch those 'who don't get it' are. It's not Svend alone but NDP just isn't on the same plane of thought as most working people.

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As far as foreign policy goes, I'm not sure President Gore would agree with you.

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Vice President Lieberman might, though. And he's actually hung on to some power, and shown us where his heart beats. What Gore would have done had he insisted on there being a democratic election is anybody's guess now. Including Gore's.

But your point is well taken. Especially about polls, etc. All this doom and gloom about going now ... what would be so different in a few months' time? Was the Jack Love-In leading to Layton-o-mania scheduled for the spring?

[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: writer ]

By contrast, the NDP pharmacare plan does neither. You pay 50% of everything over $1,500.00 per year. This is not really a comprehensive pharmacare plan (more like catastrophic drug care), so it does not appeal to people's self-interest and some will be left wondering if you will pay 50% over the $1,500.00 or if you spend over $1,500.00 per year, the government will pay half of everything. The same thing happened with the inheritance tax proposal. A tax that will benefit a majority of Canadians was successfully depicted as a tax grab on most middle-class Canadians. Jack is great, but he needs to dumb things down IMO. Tommy Douglas was excellent at this.

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Originally posted by Peter North:
Anyway, the NDP would royally fuck up the country. They'd pull us out of NORAD, NATO, NAFTA, OAS, and any other collective organizations out there except the UN. They'd jack up taxes on the middle class. They'd jack up taxes on businesses, which would just push them to Mexico or China. Paradoxically, the auto, mining, lumber, smelting, and other big polluters would be given all kinds of tax breaks to protect the union jobs.

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Originally posted by Cartman:
At some point, there was gonna be an election whether we wanted one or not.

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Originally posted by No Yards:
I think wasting time fighting against the Liberals was the wrong strategy ... they were doing a fine job all on their own discrediting themselves, and the CPC were more than willing to help them along ... there is no need for the NDP to get involved in that exercise.

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I agree with you for the most part, No Yards. I think the initial part of the campaign needed to be devoted to attacking the Libs. But certainly the last couple of weeks would have been better spent attacking the Cons. They are the deepest threat to Canada and Canadians in my opinion and a minority consisting of them would be a terrible mistake and a quick return to the ballot boxes, I think.

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Originally posted by Albireo:
But, fortunately, the current election is *not* yet a disaster; the Conservatives are peaking too early. There are 4 days until the 2nd English debate, and 2 weeks after that. Plenty of time for some close scrutiny of Harper and the gang. I don't believe that they can avoid fuck-ups or embarrassments right up until e-day.

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Right-O, Albireo! The Cons will NOT be able to keep their big, fat mouths shut from now until e-day. And they are peaking far too early, in my opinion. The debates should put a twist on things too --- All very good points!!

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I wish everyone would calm down for a second instead of acting as if the election was already over. We have almost three weeks to go. We have debates next week and 80% of the public is only just tuning in. For all we know the NDP may do extremely well.

Let's save the recriminations for when and if there is any need for them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peter North:
Ever read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

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Originally posted by greyflannel:

Don't forget raining down sulfur, annhilating the sun with a giant red laser and a ban on oxygen.

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I wish everyone would calm down for a second instead of acting as if the election was already over. We have almost three weeks to go. We have debates next week and 80% of the public is only just tuning in. For all we know the NDP may do extremely well.
Let's save the recriminations for when and if there is any need for them.

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Your location says

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Proudly supporting the NDP on January 23rd, 2006

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I submit that supporting the NDP is a long time commitment, since it is a smaller-financed party often dissed by the "Main Two" and the media.

That leaves a lot of polling suspect and we dont really know who they will eventually vote for.

Now is the time to help out your candidates however you can

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Originally posted by Peter North:

All this to say that the NDP will never be the government, but if you are going to vote don't waste it by voting NDP. Vote Green, and know that you voted for an environmentally sustainable future. The greens aren't going to be the government either, but they are a more ethical party than the NDP.

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Originally posted by Peter North:

All this to say that the NDP will never be the government, but if you are going to vote don't waste it by voting NDP. Vote Green, and know that you voted for an environmentally sustainable future. The greens aren't going to be the government either, but they are a more ethical party than the NDP.

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Originally posted by lonewolf2:
CTV News reports that undecided voters are 40 per cent

That leaves a lot of polling suspect and we dont really know who they will eventually vote for.

Now is the time to help out your candidates however you can

It's still "wide-open"

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Amen to that, brother.

Let's all say a little prayer now:

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Martin volleys at Layton – Layton volleys right back

“I fail to understand how Mr. Martin cannot know where we are coming from. We sat down together and I told him exactly where we are coming from earlier this fall. We want to protect public health care, take action to help seniors across the country, invest in young people, clean up politics,” Layton said. “He refused, and that is why his government fell.”

Layton continued:

“We are running against both Conservatives and Liberals all across this country. People don’t have to vote for ideas that they disagree with – the Conservatives. They also don’t have to vote for a Liberal government that hasn’t earned their support.

“They have a third option. They have got the NDP that actually works for them,” Layton said.

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Originally posted by RUredE:
Where do you live? If you lived in Kootenay-Columbia you would get it easily as it's in the NDP's face when you talk to forestry workers, farmers and other working class people.

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Has anyone else solved this puzzle?

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:

Has anyone else solved this puzzle?

If not: Tallyho, weren't you banned earlier?

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Originally posted by No Yards:
I think wasting time fighting against the Liberals was the wrong strategy ... they were doing a fine job all on their own discrediting themselves, and the CPC were more than willing to help them along ... there is no need for the NDP to get involved in that exercise.

The NDP should have spent all their effort between blowing holes in the CPC lies and policy nonsense, and pushing their own policies ... at worst it would have resulted in exactly what's happening now ... the most expected results would have been to discourage the CPC voters and give the Libs and NDP a larger number of combined seats ... at best it would have discouraged the CPC and allowed the frightened left leaners that only vote Liberal for fear of a CPC government to move towards the NDP.

Oh well, maybe after the NDP try the same strategy a few more times, someone will get a clue.

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I agree. So far the NDP has made a huge strategic mistake attacking the Liberals and being relatively quiet about the Cons.

The Liberals would take care of themselves, and the Cons would concentrate on them.

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Originally posted by Kevin_Laddle:
The guy is an idiot. Don't waste your time on his "puzzle", he's really not worth the trouble.

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I practically spent no time on this puzzle. This guy posted, and off the bat I noticed enough similarities to Tallyho that I had a suspicion.

ETA: Michelle pegged it over here.

[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: Aristotleded24 ]

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"With all due respect, where the hell are you getting this from??? Jack has talked tons of policy, at just about every campaign stop. He's laid out his plans for healthcare, post-secondary education, the environment, national pharmacy program, additional funding for military housing and increased pay, etc, etc, etc..."

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I've just noticed that none of the parties have done what I think they'd do with a detailed and costed platform (at least not readily available).

The funnest part of the 2004 campaign was when I went up to the Conservative candidate and tell him Bay Street found his party's platform is the only one with a deficit.

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Originally posted by West Coast Tiger:
Funny. I always thought of the Cons more as The Borg. *shiver*

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:
The Conservatives are Species 8472.

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Originally posted by Kevin_Laddle:

What the fuck do you know about working peoples' interests? Working people WANT universal healthcare, working people WANT post secondary tuition lowered, working people WANT a universal prescription drug plan, working people WANT a clean environment, working people WANT a progressive, tolerant society. However YOU WANT a Conservative gov't, and as such oppose all of these things. You are a neo-con, and likely just trolling. However, don't dare claim to speak for "working people".

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Originally posted by Makwa:
I thought the Conservatives were Ferenghi?

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Originally posted by TCD:

Kevin, as a working person, I can say I don't want a corrupt government that lies. I don't want the Liberals to win. Conservatives, held to a minority, I can live with. Liberals, I can't.

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Originally posted by Makwa:
I thought the Conservatives were Ferengi?

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Who will direct Conservative Policy? the same people who direct the secretive NCC. Bye-bye Social State! Hello "Free Market"!

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What's the point in even asking that, as an NDP supporter? If you support the NDP, you support the NDP.

I don't see much point in worrying about how the Conservatives or Liberals do since you can't control what happens to them, nor would want to if your physically, financially, or intellectually helping the NDP. You can't control it so why worry unessecarilly? Unless you want wrinkles, or pimples, I don't see the point.

Besides, if the Cons really do have such a hard right agenda that people like Rob Anders get woodys just thinking of what they'd do if they could get their hands on a cabinet post, and say that makes them so hated that people turn on masse to the Liberals, who don't do anything to stop it once they get back in, doesn't that mean the Libs really aren't worthy of support then?

To be fair, I'm not saying you said support the Liberals. But I remember you describing German politics, and essentially comparing the SPD to the Liberals, and that lefties should support the Left Party regardless of the CDU/CSU, because of that. Well, doesn't the same apply here?

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]

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Originally posted by Kevin_Laddle:
[QB]I have now came to one conclusion, and whether or not they will admit it, I think most New Democrats would agree; this election was an enormous mistake, and our absolute best case scenario is now what we had before we called this bloody election!

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It is so very Canadian to hug the center-line and I think there exists a natural proclivity to head for the center, when in doubt. The LPOC has oozed in that direction, as a fail-safe reaction to almost anything. That is when they are not electioneering, that they do noticeably to the left, but once in power, ooze back to the center to govern. This way it doesn't look so bad when they scoop ideas from the parties to the rightward of them.

I expect the dippers suffer the same beaver-like tendency, to heave closer to the center. Not being a socialist, I can only go by experience with their systems of govt (and I live in the home of Socialist Govt. in North America, and lived through the Dave Barret era in BC) and my interactions with dippers on a personal level. I don't believe they would, in a blind reaction, run away from the center, but again, would run to the center as a fail-safe tactic. So would lib supporters but they are going to eventually get into the conservative part of the spectrum and that means a vote for Stephen Harper. Hmm, going to be some soul searching shortly.

No dilemma for the Conservatives of course.

But the real dilemma is for the dippers who attempt to run to center and find the libs in the way, and I have no doubt there are many honourable Canadians, who are fervent socialists, that will refuse to endorse the libs and their past 12 years of governance. But if they vote for their first choice, NDP, then they split the left vote and the Conservatives win first past the post. If they vote lib to ensure the defeat of the Conservatives they end up rewarding paulie and the gang for blatant corruption. I think it is important to hold one fact in your mind in the voting booth; Never in our history was a government defeated in a straight vote of non-confidence. To me that speaks directly to the (lack of) moral authority vested in the LPOC.

So, whats a dipper to do? hold their nose and vote lib, hold their nose and vote con, hold their head up high and vote dip, or just hold their vote?

Oh and btw, I am one of those 'working people' mentioned above.

[ 08 January 2006: Message edited by: Gislison ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Kauppinen:

Now, now, calm down. Everything will turn out ok.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kevin_Laddle:

Fuck off. I don't want or need the sympathy of someone who supports bigotry.

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Regarding your PM to me:

quote:

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Kevin_Laddle

--------------------------------------------------

Hey, you fucking bigot. I checked you out, I know you are a troll from
FreakDominion. I've already sent Audra a PM...

Don't think for a God Damn second your disgusting party of bigotry and hate is
going to be able to implement its evil and immoral agenda. Decent people don't
support the theo-cons. Your party is pure shit.

--------------------------------------------------

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Kauppinen:

Ever heard of the word "decorum"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Kauppinen:

Ever heard of the word "decorum"?

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
RB and YSB, I don't think it's possible to shove it up and blow it out at the same time. Could you try to coordinate your rebuttals, so as not to cause any confusion to trolls?

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Originally posted by Banjo:
I remember this guy, Kauppinen, from the discussion group, 50plus. Though his web site listed him as a student, there he had to pretend to be over 50 years old to be elegible.

He attempted to feign condescension in that group as well.

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He's also the president of the Kingston and the Islands Conservative riding association.

Vice-president is the psycho-freak Connie Wilkins.

Her shack-up buddy, that gay-bashing Mark Fournier is also on the exec, in charge of media and communications.

Should the CPC win a minority, I am willing to put money on the table that those extremist MP's (Rob Anders, Jason Kenney, etc) are not going to be at the cabinet table. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF the CPC win, they will have their eye on securing a majority in the next election and they will do their utmost to ensure that MP's who torpedo their own cause with extremist statements will be as far from the media spotlight as possible.

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
This time, the percentages look about the same, better if Martin doesn't manage to force a last minute shift, but the NDPers are all "Oh no! We're doomed! It's the end of life as we know it!"
Hopefully, we will be pleasantly surprised by what actually happens.

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Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
To be fair, I'm not saying you said support the Liberals. But I remember you describing German politics, and essentially comparing the SPD to the Liberals, and that lefties should support the Left Party regardless of the CDU/CSU, because of that. Well, doesn't the same apply here?

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I want to know why Mr. Hargrove endorsed Paul Martin's Liberal. Hargrove said that he wanted Canadians to vote NDP unless the Liberals had a better chance at beating the Conservatives. The Liberals had a better chance in most of Canada. It was de-facto Liberal support.

Does Hargrove want Martin to appoint him to the Senate? (It ain't gonna happen now.)

Was Hargrove mad at a January election? (Brrr!)

Are there internal problems that is now affecting the NDP campaign?

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oh Jack why did you side with the Bloc and CP? To try and win a couple of measly seats?

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Originally posted by BigLebowski:
The NDP will be the biggest loser in this election oh Jack why did you side with the Bloc and CP? To try and win a couple of measly seats? As the CP gains strength some NDPers will waver and vote Liberal, good luck...

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http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=606974&highlight=#606974

quote:

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
For the umpteenth time, the LPC and NDP didn't have enough combined votes to ward off a defeat, anyway.

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Originally posted by Privateer:

Either you are a Liberal troll or a sorry pathetic excuse for an NDPer. Have some courage, you gutless wonder.

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Originally posted by BigLebowski:

You remind me of the band that kept playing while the Titanic was sinking....

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Has the culture of entitlement gone so far that they can't even accept the blame for their own mistakes? If they lose the election it won't be because of scandals, but because NDP voters won't switch to a party whose economic policies are against almost everything the NDP stands for.

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Originally posted by retread:

Has the culture of entitlement gone so far that they can't even accept the blame for their own mistakes? If they lose the election it won't be because of scandals, but because NDP voters won't switch to a party whose economic policies are against almost everything the NDP stands for.

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Originally posted by Albireo:
Also for the umpteenth time: Martin himself committed to calling an election within 30 days of the release of Gomery 2 in February. So we would have had a March or April election anyway, instead of a January election. If the bottom is falling out of the Liberal wagon now, it surely would have also done so in 2 or 3 months. There is really no difference.

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[ 11 January 2006: Message edited by: Left J.A.B. ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hawkins:
I am more concerned about how many Canadians did not feel this election was warrented.

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I think that's all forgotten now. Was an issue; isn't any more.