http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226549_muslim_cleric_backs_execution_of_gays.html

quote:

---

A ROW has blown up over a claim a prominent Manchester Muslim has defended the execution of sexually-active gay people as "justified".

Arshad Misbahi, a junior Imam at the city's Central Mosque is alleged to have confirmed that it is an acceptable punishment in Iraq and Iran.

His comments are said to have been made to psychotherapist Dr John Casson who is researching the persecution of gays in Islamic states.

---

If you follow one of their links you can read about his leaflets talking about “crimes against humanity”

The problem isn't Islam or Christianity,it is fundamentalist conservatism that refuses to accept the premise that respect for all people is universal.

While researching the Canadian Muslim Congress,I came across some sites and chats with Muslim gays.They not only have to deal with homophobia and Islamophobia but also the cultural disapproval of conservative families.

quote:

---

Originally posted by scribblet:
http://www.ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/2006oct/2002.htm
a gay website says pretty much the same thing

If you follow one of their links you can read about his leaflets talking about “crimes against humanity”

Is it politically correct to criticize this kind of extremism.

---

Being gay does not by the fact exempt one from being a bigot in other matters.

The fact is that some opressed people also accept a great deal of other socially normalized bigotry. For instance, however much the Nation of Islam quite correctly critiqued racism in the USA, this did not mean that Elijah Mohammed was a bright light of gay liberation, quite the opposite.

In fact, it is often the case that more marginalized sectors of society often overcompensate for their own marginalization by becoming the most virulent advocates of other socially accepted bigotries as a means of gaining entry into the mainstream of public thought, and building social alliances.

This is an essential mechanism of scapegoating, in fact.

My point really is that being gay, or black, or whatever doesn't make one automatically "politically correct," as you seem to be suggesting.

That said people are quite right to condemn this idiot.

[ 27 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jester:
Well,resorting to Islamophobia to address concerns of homophobia don't do much for either.

The problem isn't Islam or Christianity,it is fundamentalist conservatism that refuses to accept the premise that respect for all people is universal.

While researching the Canadian Muslim Congress,I came across some sites and chats with Muslim gays.They not only have to deal with homophobia and Islamophobia but also the cultural disapproval of conservative families.

What this cleric said is no different than what some Canadians say every day.It is a reflection of cross cultural fundamentalism,not Islam.

---

To me, any Christian that really knows what Christianity is about should be up in arms opposing the execution of homosexuals. Instead, some (a large vocal minority I hope), of these people seem to take great pleasure in quoting Leviticus, where stoning of homosexuals was mandated. Even if a Christian thinks that homosexuality is sinful, you would think they would remember what Jesus taught when he intervened at the stoneing of a prostitute. (He who is without sin should cast the first stone).

Christian groups should all be condeming the execution of homosexuals and lobbying (and perhaps praying) against it.

quote:

---

Well,resorting to Islamophobia to address concerns of homophobia don't do much for either.
The problem isn't Islam or Christianity,it is fundamentalist conservatism that refuses to accept the premise that respect for all people is universal.

---

The problem is the bigots who are willing to take such extreme measures as murder to create thier own perverted fantasy world where everybody has to be straight, or where were told when or who to have sex with, or where women are held "in thier place", or where someone is repressed for their race or ethnicity, or where people are told what church to go to.

And when people start preaching that, they should have thier ass thrown in jail.

And the other thing is when we start saying that so and so group is bigotted, we start to become bigotted ourselves (unless I suppose, if bigotry is literally one of thier key principles (KKK, etc.)).

So I'm just going to say that this cleric is a f**kwad.

[ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: West Coast Greeny ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

Are you suggesting that in order not to be misinterpreted as being "Islamophobic" we should refrain from publicizing or criticizing Muslim clerics who spew hatred towards gays and lesbians. If so, I guess we should also stop publicizing and criticising any homophobic comments by fundamentalist Christains since it might be "Christianophobia".

---

Not at all. As long as the criticism is directed at the utterer of the comments,not criticism of a whole culture or religion because the utterer may hold a position of note.

As this particular loon has verified and taken ownership of the remarks,he is open to criticism whereas others who may be misinterpreted in fact as well as intent should be given the benefit of doubt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alberta Guy:
This might be one of the few areas where Moderate Conservatives, Liberals, Socialists, and most mainstream religious groups could come together and make a joint statement and hold a united front.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kevin_Laddle:

The fact that you had to write "Moderate Conservatives" rather than just "Conservatives" tells you a lot about the present conservative movement that is devastating Canada, the USA, Australia (not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan).

---

Agreed, there are some out there that actually seem to think that this is justice. I don't know how many, but I can only hope they are a very small but very vocal minority. In my mind this issue should be a no-brainer for any Canadian Citizen regardless of Political and Religous affiliation.

quote:

---

We know for a fact that several "Islamic Republics" routinely execute people for being gay. I don't know of any countries ruled according to the principles of any other religion that do this - at least not in this century

---

Sure. And the first act of "Islamic Republics" on coming to power is to either kill off or scare off the educated and professional sector.

I think that the executing of gays in these places can properly be blamed on ignorance and fundamentalism,not clerics or religion.

When the majority of a state has no other education than religious instruction,the religious "instructors" have considerable sway indoctrinating their flock that is not probable in an educated secular country.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
All religious fundies should seriously keep their religion to themselves, as well as their hateful opinions. This nut bar reminds me of a few of the Christian fundies south of us who have advocated for and wished death upon homosexuals. Where is the difference? I see none.

---

There's no difference between those particular "Christian fundies south of us" and this cleric.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jester:

To lump clerics and the religion itself together with the fundamentalist proponents of medieval savagery is disingenious. Like blaming Buddism for Pol Pot's extermination of the educated.

---

quote:

---

Muslim clerics urges "execution of gays" -Stockholm

---

Stockholm,

This practice of finding anything negative some pseu-Muslim has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called in Muslim Canadian circles the "Fatah-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Tarek Fatah.

It is a toughtlessly juvenile, mean, ill-motivated practice, tantamount to moral vandalism, welcomed only by right wingers and Islamophobes.

A similar news, for instance, of a GLBT killing (or other punishment) originating from a theocractic government (Iran, Saudi Arabia or Taliban types) would be suited for discussion. But in this case, a "cleric" (for lack of a more suitable qualifyer since there is no clergy in Islam) has said something stupid in the UK. Now How many GLBT have been persecuted by UK Muslims ? By Canadian Muslims ? By US, French, Italian.. Muslims ?

What is exactly your point ?

Yes, maybe if this guy were in Canada he would be charged... But if we are going to base our discussions on the "Ifs", we would be more like children iffing in a sandbox than a thoughful group discussing serious and real issues in which most of us are hands-on.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: sidra ]

quote:

---

This practice of finding anything negative some pseu-Muslim has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called in Muslim Canadian circles the "Fatah-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Tarek Fatah.

It is a toughtlessly juvenile, mean, ill-motivated practice, tantamount to moral vandalism, welcomed only by right wingers and Islamophobes.

---

This practice of finding anything negative some pseudo-westerner has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called the "Sidra-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Sidra.

quote:

---

Originally posted by brookmere:

Yeah but what if the proponent of the "medieval savagery" is a cleric himself, like the subject of the post? That's the whole point isn't it?

Pol Pot was not a member of the Buddhist clergy - indeed he disavoved Buddhism. He was an officer of the Cambodian Communist Party, and that ideology can rightly be associated with his crimes.

---

What you have actually done is prove, once again, is that the evil is rarely found in the ideology itself, but in its application, and that regressive, repressive, and reactionary elements are capable of turining anything on its head and perveting it to their own screwball ends.

Rios Montt was a an adeherent of Jerry Fallwell's Church of the Word, a Christian organization.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sidra:

Stockholm,

This practice of finding anything negative some pseu-Muslim has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called in Muslim Canadian circles the "Fatah-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Tarek Fatah.

It is a toughtlessly juvenile, mean, ill-motivated practice, tantamount to moral vandalism, welcomed only by right wingers and Islamophobes.

A similar news, for instance, of a GLBT killing (or other punishment) originating from a theocractic government (Iran, Saudi Arabia or Taliban types) would be suited for discussion. But in this case, a "cleric" (for lack of a more suitable qualifyer since there is no clergy in Islam) has said something stupid in the UK. Now How many GLBT have been persecuted by UK Muslims ? By Canadian Muslims ? By US, French, Italian.. Muslims ?

What is exactly your point ?

Yes, maybe if this guy were in Canada he would be charged... But if we are going to base our discussions on the "Ifs", we would be more like children iffing in a sandbox than a thoughful group discussing serious and real issues in which most of us are hands-on.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: sidra ]

---

But, Sidra, you seem to be arguing that a person should not post the words of a member of an organization or religion unless that member also has the legal and governmental authority to act upon his or her words.

The title of the thread is:

quote:

---

Muslim clerics urges "execution of gays"

---

I agree with you as long as you are talking about an individual, regardless of his religion, sect or lack thereof.

You have to admit though they did have an interesting route to the heart of the matter.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Moral Vandalism? I like the sound of that but what does morality have to do with rampaging Germanic tribes from Silesia? -Cueball

---

My attempt to distinguish between physical vandalism as in the Germanic tribes' rampage and non-physical (but moral) vandalism.

Has nothing to do with morality. I must be lacking the proper word.

The Ostrogoths got completely lost as you can see, but the Vandals snuck though Andalusia and came up from behind after a rest stop in Carthage.

Certainly made Mohamed's job a lot easier. Should give credit where credit is due.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

You have to admit though they did have an interesting route to the heart of the matter. -Cueball

---

Very interesting. You, got, me, THERE, Cueball

WARNING: This website is vile (SO VIEW AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION) but it is an example of an extremist Christian church advocating death for homosexual "sinners".

"Founded in 1978 by Gary DeMar, one of America's most prominent proponents of Christian Reconstructionism, American Vision produces a wide variety of "educational resources" designed to "restore America's Biblical foundation." Like R.J. Rushdoony, the founder of Reconstructionism (see Chalcedon Foundation), DeMar contends that the U.S. was founded as a "Christian nation" and that its democracy should be replaced by a theocratic government run by Christians who will strictly impose certain Old Testament prohibitions, including passages they interpret as opposing homosexuality and abortion.

"The Bible is clear on moral issues that are culture-killers: homosexuality, homosexual marriage, and abortion," says DeMar, who is closely allied with D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries, where he frequently speaks.

While DeMar insists that homosexuals wouldn't be rounded up and systematically executed under a "reconstructed" government, he does believe that the occasional execution of "sodomites" would serve society well, because "the law that requires the death penalty for homosexual acts effectively drives the perversion of homosexuality underground, back into the closet."

ETA: This sounds an awful lot like the theocracy of Iran.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]