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Topic: Muslim clerics urges "execution of gays"
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Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
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posted 27 October 2006 07:57 AM
If this creep was in Canada maybe we could have him jailed for hate crimes.http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226549_muslim_cleric_backs_execution_of_gays.html quote: A ROW has blown up over a claim a prominent Manchester Muslim has defended the execution of sexually-active gay people as "justified".Arshad Misbahi, a junior Imam at the city's Central Mosque is alleged to have confirmed that it is an acceptable punishment in Iraq and Iran. His comments are said to have been made to psychotherapist Dr John Casson who is researching the persecution of gays in Islamic states.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
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scribblet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4706
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posted 27 October 2006 01:38 PM
http://www.ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/2006oct/2002.htm a gay website says pretty much the same thingIf you follow one of their links you can read about his leaflets talking about “crimes against humanity” Is it politically correct to criticize this kind of extremism.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2003
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jester
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Babbler # 11798
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posted 27 October 2006 09:12 PM
Well,resorting to Islamophobia to address concerns of homophobia don't do much for either.The problem isn't Islam or Christianity,it is fundamentalist conservatism that refuses to accept the premise that respect for all people is universal. While researching the Canadian Muslim Congress,I came across some sites and chats with Muslim gays.They not only have to deal with homophobia and Islamophobia but also the cultural disapproval of conservative families. What this cleric said is no different than what some Canadians say every day.It is a reflection of cross cultural fundamentalism,not Islam.
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 October 2006 09:23 PM
quote: Originally posted by scribblet: http://www.ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/2006oct/2002.htm a gay website says pretty much the same thingIf you follow one of their links you can read about his leaflets talking about “crimes against humanity” Is it politically correct to criticize this kind of extremism.
Being gay does not by the fact exempt one from being a bigot in other matters. The fact is that some opressed people also accept a great deal of other socially normalized bigotry. For instance, however much the Nation of Islam quite correctly critiqued racism in the USA, this did not mean that Elijah Mohammed was a bright light of gay liberation, quite the opposite. In fact, it is often the case that more marginalized sectors of society often overcompensate for their own marginalization by becoming the most virulent advocates of other socially accepted bigotries as a means of gaining entry into the mainstream of public thought, and building social alliances. This is an essential mechanism of scapegoating, in fact. My point really is that being gay, or black, or whatever doesn't make one automatically "politically correct," as you seem to be suggesting. That said people are quite right to condemn this idiot. [ 27 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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scribblet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4706
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posted 28 October 2006 01:02 PM
quote: Originally posted by jester: Well,resorting to Islamophobia to address concerns of homophobia don't do much for either.The problem isn't Islam or Christianity,it is fundamentalist conservatism that refuses to accept the premise that respect for all people is universal. While researching the Canadian Muslim Congress,I came across some sites and chats with Muslim gays.They not only have to deal with homophobia and Islamophobia but also the cultural disapproval of conservative families. What this cleric said is no different than what some Canadians say every day.It is a reflection of cross cultural fundamentalism,not Islam.
I don't know of any other group which actually advocates executing people for being gay. there is no doubt that that would be hate speech and against the law.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2003
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Alberta Guy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13419
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posted 28 October 2006 01:26 PM
This is one subject area where I really do not understand the attitude of the far right.To me, any Christian that really knows what Christianity is about should be up in arms opposing the execution of homosexuals. Instead, some (a large vocal minority I hope), of these people seem to take great pleasure in quoting Leviticus, where stoning of homosexuals was mandated. Even if a Christian thinks that homosexuality is sinful, you would think they would remember what Jesus taught when he intervened at the stoneing of a prostitute. (He who is without sin should cast the first stone). Christian groups should all be condeming the execution of homosexuals and lobbying (and perhaps praying) against it. There are several countries that still detain and execute Christians for their beliefs, you would think there would be some empathy there.
From: Fort McMurray | Registered: Oct 2006
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West Coast Greeny
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Babbler # 6874
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posted 28 October 2006 03:43 PM
The problem here isn't Islam or Christainity. The problem is the bigots who are willing to take such extreme measures as murder to create thier own perverted fantasy world where everybody has to be straight, or where were told when or who to have sex with, or where women are held "in thier place", or where someone is repressed for their race or ethnicity, or where people are told what church to go to. And when people start preaching that, they should have thier ass thrown in jail. And the other thing is when we start saying that so and so group is bigotted, we start to become bigotted ourselves (unless I suppose, if bigotry is literally one of thier key principles (KKK, etc.)). So I'm just going to say that this cleric is a f**kwad. [ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: West Coast Greeny ]
From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004
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jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798
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posted 28 October 2006 04:41 PM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm:
Are you suggesting that in order not to be misinterpreted as being "Islamophobic" we should refrain from publicizing or criticizing Muslim clerics who spew hatred towards gays and lesbians. If so, I guess we should also stop publicizing and criticising any homophobic comments by fundamentalist Christains since it might be "Christianophobia".
Not at all. As long as the criticism is directed at the utterer of the comments,not criticism of a whole culture or religion because the utterer may hold a position of note. As this particular loon has verified and taken ownership of the remarks,he is open to criticism whereas others who may be misinterpreted in fact as well as intent should be given the benefit of doubt. I don't know much of Islam but I do know that every English expression of Islam is open to interpretation and cannot,in many cases be directly translated.
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006
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Alberta Guy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13419
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posted 28 October 2006 06:43 PM
quote: Originally posted by Kevin_Laddle:
The fact that you had to write "Moderate Conservatives" rather than just "Conservatives" tells you a lot about the present conservative movement that is devastating Canada, the USA, Australia (not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan).
Agreed, there are some out there that actually seem to think that this is justice. I don't know how many, but I can only hope they are a very small but very vocal minority. In my mind this issue should be a no-brainer for any Canadian Citizen regardless of Political and Religous affiliation. I would not say that the Conservative movement has "devestated" anything, at least not yet. Canada is one of the most socially liberal countries in the world if I am not mistaken and is not showing any real signs of reverting. (I tend to lean right when it comes to economics, but I take a hard left when it comes to protection of human rights)
From: Fort McMurray | Registered: Oct 2006
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jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798
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posted 28 October 2006 09:00 PM
quote: We know for a fact that several "Islamic Republics" routinely execute people for being gay. I don't know of any countries ruled according to the principles of any other religion that do this - at least not in this century
Sure. And the first act of "Islamic Republics" on coming to power is to either kill off or scare off the educated and professional sector. I think that the executing of gays in these places can properly be blamed on ignorance and fundamentalism,not clerics or religion. When the majority of a state has no other education than religious instruction,the religious "instructors" have considerable sway indoctrinating their flock that is not probable in an educated secular country. To lump clerics and the religion itself together with the fundamentalist proponents of medieval savagery is disingenious. Like blaming Buddism for Pol Pot's extermination of the educated.
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006
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sidra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11490
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posted 02 January 2007 09:54 AM
quote: Muslim clerics urges "execution of gays" -Stockholm
Stockholm, This practice of finding anything negative some pseu-Muslim has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called in Muslim Canadian circles the "Fatah-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Tarek Fatah. It is a toughtlessly juvenile, mean, ill-motivated practice, tantamount to moral vandalism, welcomed only by right wingers and Islamophobes. A similar news, for instance, of a GLBT killing (or other punishment) originating from a theocractic government (Iran, Saudi Arabia or Taliban types) would be suited for discussion. But in this case, a "cleric" (for lack of a more suitable qualifyer since there is no clergy in Islam) has said something stupid in the UK. Now How many GLBT have been persecuted by UK Muslims ? By Canadian Muslims ? By US, French, Italian.. Muslims ? What is exactly your point ? Yes, maybe if this guy were in Canada he would be charged... But if we are going to base our discussions on the "Ifs", we would be more like children iffing in a sandbox than a thoughful group discussing serious and real issues in which most of us are hands-on. [ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: sidra ]
From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
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posted 02 January 2007 11:05 AM
quote: This practice of finding anything negative some pseu-Muslim has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called in Muslim Canadian circles the "Fatah-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Tarek Fatah. It is a toughtlessly juvenile, mean, ill-motivated practice, tantamount to moral vandalism, welcomed only by right wingers and Islamophobes.
This practice of finding anything negative some pseudo-westerner has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called the "Sidra-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Sidra. It is a toughtlessly juvenile, mean, ill-motivated practice, tantamount to moral vandalism, welcomed only by pseudo leftwingers and Occodentophobes.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 02 January 2007 12:07 PM
quote: Originally posted by brookmere:
Yeah but what if the proponent of the "medieval savagery" is a cleric himself, like the subject of the post? That's the whole point isn't it?Pol Pot was not a member of the Buddhist clergy - indeed he disavoved Buddhism. He was an officer of the Cambodian Communist Party, and that ideology can rightly be associated with his crimes.
What you have actually done is prove, once again, is that the evil is rarely found in the ideology itself, but in its application, and that regressive, repressive, and reactionary elements are capable of turining anything on its head and perveting it to their own screwball ends. Rios Montt was a an adeherent of Jerry Fallwell's Church of the Word, a Christian organization. [ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
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posted 02 January 2007 03:48 PM
quote: Originally posted by sidra:
Stockholm, This practice of finding anything negative some pseu-Muslim has done or said in any corner of the world and splashing it far and wide for further propagation is called in Muslim Canadian circles the "Fatah-esque" practice, to its pioneer (the native informer) Tarek Fatah. It is a toughtlessly juvenile, mean, ill-motivated practice, tantamount to moral vandalism, welcomed only by right wingers and Islamophobes. A similar news, for instance, of a GLBT killing (or other punishment) originating from a theocractic government (Iran, Saudi Arabia or Taliban types) would be suited for discussion. But in this case, a "cleric" (for lack of a more suitable qualifyer since there is no clergy in Islam) has said something stupid in the UK. Now How many GLBT have been persecuted by UK Muslims ? By Canadian Muslims ? By US, French, Italian.. Muslims ? What is exactly your point ? Yes, maybe if this guy were in Canada he would be charged... But if we are going to base our discussions on the "Ifs", we would be more like children iffing in a sandbox than a thoughful group discussing serious and real issues in which most of us are hands-on. [ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: sidra ]
But, Sidra, you seem to be arguing that a person should not post the words of a member of an organization or religion unless that member also has the legal and governmental authority to act upon his or her words. An individual extremist Xian (cleric or otherwise) in the USA may not have the power of the government to have gays executed but if such an extremist is advocating the execution of gays, it seems to me that shining a light on that speech is bloody well appropriate.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
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sidra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11490
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posted 02 January 2007 06:51 PM
Sven, The title of the thread is: quote: Muslim clerics urges "execution of gays"
I agree with you as long as you are talking about an individual, regardless of his religion, sect or lack thereof. A Muslim said, a Muslim did, a Muslim said a Muslim did... (You change Muslim with Christian, Jew, Sikh and so on..) we get into wichhunts and Fatah-esque thougthless juvenile moral vandalism.
From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 02 January 2007 07:28 PM
I don't know. Smashing up the Roman Empire is probably something I would have supported.The Ostrogoths got completely lost as you can see, but the Vandals snuck though Andalusia and came up from behind after a rest stop in Carthage. Certainly made Mohamed's job a lot easier. Should give credit where credit is due. [ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
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posted 02 January 2007 10:28 PM
Here's an excellent article (an "Intelligence Report") published by the Southern Poverty Law Center. It exposes a vile extremist Christian organization, "American Vision":"Founded in 1978 by Gary DeMar, one of America's most prominent proponents of Christian Reconstructionism, American Vision produces a wide variety of "educational resources" designed to "restore America's Biblical foundation." Like R.J. Rushdoony, the founder of Reconstructionism (see Chalcedon Foundation), DeMar contends that the U.S. was founded as a "Christian nation" and that its democracy should be replaced by a theocratic government run by Christians who will strictly impose certain Old Testament prohibitions, including passages they interpret as opposing homosexuality and abortion. "The Bible is clear on moral issues that are culture-killers: homosexuality, homosexual marriage, and abortion," says DeMar, who is closely allied with D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries, where he frequently speaks. While DeMar insists that homosexuals wouldn't be rounded up and systematically executed under a "reconstructed" government, he does believe that the occasional execution of "sodomites" would serve society well, because "the law that requires the death penalty for homosexual acts effectively drives the perversion of homosexuality underground, back into the closet." ETA: This sounds an awful lot like the theocracy of Iran. [ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
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