This is the first major co-ordinated demonstration in the US since the election last fall. The double-whammy of the Bush victory, on top of the disorientation caused by the Kerry pro-war campaign, left the US anti-war movement demoralized and confused.

This will be an opportunity to regain the momentum, now that public opinion is solidly against the war.

Rally and march
Saturday, September 24
1:00pm
US Consulate
360 University Avenue
Toronto

quote:

---

Momentum for the UFPJ September Mobilization is building
August 25th, 2005

Dear Friends,
Recent developments in the anti-war movement have brought new energy and focus to the call for ending the war in Iraq:
•    the Out Of Iraq Caucus has been formed by members of Congress;
•    the AFL-CIO passed a resolution calling for a rapid withdrawal from Iraq;
•    new public opinion polls show flagging approval of President Bush  and more opposition to the war in Iraq than ever before; and
•    Cindy Sheehan and other Gold Star Parents for Peace & military families at Camp Casey in Crawford, TX have received great publicity, raising the visibility of the anti-war movement in the media and drawing support from people around the globe.
The UFPJ September 24-26 Mobilization in Washington, D.C. is coming at just the right time! We are poised to tap into the broad antiwar sentiment in every corner of the country and to bring massive numbers of people into the streets of Washington…but we can’t do it without your support!   
With just a month remaining before the UFPJ September Mobilization, we have an incredible amount of work to do, and we need your help to make this mobilization a success!
Here’s how you can support the UFPJ September Mobilization in Washington, D.C. on September 24-26:
1.    Donate Now.  
Now, more than ever, we need you to make the most generous contribution possible in support of our work.  This mobilization could be the biggest ever, and in order to maximize our outreach we need to be able to pay for posters, flyers, buttons, stickers, and other materials.  We also need to pay for the stage and sound equipment, port-o-johns, and other items that will help make the weekend a success.  Please give as much money as you can afford — we will use it efficiently and effectively.  Click here to donate online or call our NYC office at (212) 868-5545 to contribute over the telephone.
2.    Become a Sustainer.
By becoming a sustainer, you will not only support the September Mobilization, you will provide ongoing support that will enable us to follow-up on the momentum generated by the UFPJ September Mobilization.
3.    Offer Housing or Transportation.  
There are many people from outside of the D.C. area who want to participate in the UFPJ September Mobilization, but who cannot afford to pay for travel expenses.  If you live in the D.C. area and have a spare room or couch to offer, please post it on our Housing board.  If you’re driving or your member group is chartering a bus and you have an extra seat, please post it on our Transportation board.
4.    Volunteer. 
If you are coming to D.C. during September 24-26, we will need your help!  Please sign up to volunteer in D.C. during the weekend of the September Mobilization.  You can also volunteer today by downloading leaflets and distributing them in your community.
Thank you for being part of the peace movement.  We couldn’t do this important work without your help.  And thank you in advance for your generous support!
Yours, for peace and justice,
Leslie Cagan
National Coordinator

---

i still think an Area51 Run needs to be considered....tens of thousands of people should mobilize around that base and march en mass towards that secretive installation....there's no way the authorities would be able to stop or contain such a movement...if the protestors used a couple of hundred horses, bikes, ATV's and PPUL's to storm the perimeter...it would be interesting to see how the authorities react....would they pull a Tian Square and start killing people?

quote:

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would they pull a Tian Square and start killing people?

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Legally, they could.

quote:

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Originally posted by fern hill:
Ummm, what's an Area 51 Run?

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quote:

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Originally posted by obscurantist:
A cardio-vascular workout that the whole galaxy can enjoy! (Or at least those species with a cardio-vascular system.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
what was the purpose of the Boston Tea Party?..."no more taxation without representation"

Area 51 Run?..."no more secrecy under the guise of security"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
the wick effect -produced by beeswax- is very similar to a nuclear explosion...both are chain reactions that scale with materials used

---

an "Area 51 Run" could be a protest where people infiltrate one of the greatest symbols of the military industrial complex....people could meet around that base and ignore all the death threat signs surrounding the perimeter and storm the complex

protestors wouldn't even need to "run" all the way to the base buildings...they could simply walk past the nasty warning signs to show that they're upset and not afraid to challenge government authority...a symbolic "run" against a symbolic base

quote:

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September 23-25: Anti-war days of action in Vancouver

On September 24 there will be major rally in Washington D.C. calling for U.S. troops to withdraw from Iraq. There will be solidarity actions internationally, and across Canada.

In Vancouver, StopWar.ca is organizing an extended weekend of anti-war action. Below you'll find a schedule of events, including a special event we are encouraging all to attend on Sunday, September 25, organized by NeWorld Theatre.

If you are able to volunteer for any of these anti-war activities, even if it's just for one hour, please email us at [email protected].

Friday, September 23

Banner drops during rush hour traffic. Join us as we take our anti-war signs and banners to be seen my thousands of commuters around the city. We
hope to have teams for the morning and afternoon rush hour. Call 737-1299 or emai [email protected] if you are interested in participating.

Saturday, September 24 Day of anti-war education all over the Lower Mainland.

Join a roving visual protest, as we take educational materials to the city and suburbs. Lots of volunteers are needed throughout the day. Assemble at
10a.m. at Grandview Park (Commercial Drive).

Sunday, September 25

An evening with Nicholas Kent of England’s Tricycle Theatre, organized by NeWorld Theatre

In conversation with Jerry Wasserman with musical guest Sam Shalabi

7:30pm, Vancouver East Cultural Centre (1895 Venables Street),
Vancouver

Admission is FREE

Nicolas Kent, Artistic Director of Tricycle Theatre in Kilburn, London, is
best known as the driving force behind the “tribunal” plays, dramatizations of edited extracts of court or tribunal transcripts. Past plays include Half
the Picture, a reconstruction of the Scott inquiry into the arms to Iraq
affair; The Colour of Justice, created from the investigation into the wrongful death of Stephen Lawrence; Justifying Death, based on the Hutton
Inquiry into the death of Dr. David Kelly, as well as Srebenica and excerpts from the Nuremberg war crime trials. Most recently, Guantánamo: Honour
Bound to Defend Freedom – created from new interviews with detainees, their relatives and lawyers as well as public testimonials politicians and commentators – transferred to Broadway and continues to tour to Tucson (Arizona), Boston, New Zealand, Italy, Sweden, Germany and London (UK).

---

after looking at the picture you posted, one thing intrigued me....whose jurisdiction is Area 51 under?....3 of the signs (2 white and 1 red one) seem to indicate the base is under control of the federal government (hence "U.S.C." designation on the 3 signs)....2 of the purple signs seem to show that the base is under state legal control (hence N.R.S. designation (does N stand for Nevada?))....

if there was a "run" on the base...what would be the outcome if arrested?...$1000 fine and 6 months jail?...OR....$5000 fine and 1 year jail?....

'lance---

btw...i'm not saying those housed within G-Bay in Cuba deserve to be freed...but they at least deserve some sort of internationaly accepted, legal recognition

[ 10 September 2005: Message edited by: CourtneyGQuinn ]

The poster for the event is pasted below as well as the demands and email list announcement. Below the email announcement I have also included the announcement for the events on campuses in the next two weeks - the third annual Student Week Against War and Occupation.

Vancouver's demonstration is very important for the antiwar movement and we look forward to a successful mass rally and march. We look forward to seeing all rabble-Vancouver-ites at this demonstration.

If we are interested in contributing to the international anti-war movement in an effective way to end war and occupation then we MUST continue to rally and march in mass actions all across Canada against war and occupation - against the occupation of Iraq, AND Afghanistan. This is true for the anti-war movmement everywhere, all the time - but is especially true on international days of action.

- Ivan

------------------------------
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF ACTION!

US/UK OUT OF IRAQ!
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!

SEPTEMBER 24 2005
RALLY AND MARCH
3PM | VANCOUVER ART GALLERY

Self-Determination for Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan,
Haiti and Indigenous Nations in Canada!
US/EU Hands Off Iran and Syria! US Hands off Cuba and
Venezuela!
Bring All Troops Home Now! Stop the War at Home and
Abroad!

FEATURING:

TIM LOUIS (Vancouver City Councilor)
KYLE (US War Resister living in Vancouver)
BUD OSBORNE (Renowned Poet and Activist)
... and representatives from the BC Labour and Student
movements,
Indigenous and Muslim communities.

******************************************************
Mobilization Against War and Occupation (MAWO)
www.mawovancouver.org | [email protected] |
604.322.1764
******************************************************

Mobilization Against War and Occupation Presents:

The THIRD annual Student Week Against War and
Occupation!

10 Days! (and beyond!)
14 Campuses!
31 Events!

US UK OUT OF IRAQ!
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!
SELF DETERMINATION FOR PALESTINE, HAITI, IRAN, SYRIA &
INDIGENOUS NATIONS IN CANADA!

***************************************
Schedule of Anti War Action and Events:
***************************************

Campus Listing (Detailed Schedule Below):

UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA:
Sept 12 to 15 and Sept 23

SIMON FRASER UNIVERSITY:
Sept 20 to 22

CAPILANO COLLEGE:
Sept 19 to 23

LANGARA COLLEGE:
Sept 19 to 22

DOUGLAS COLLEGE (2 campuses):
Sept 12 to 14

KWANTLEN COLLEGE (3 campuses):
Sept 12 to 15

UNIVERSITY OF VICTORIA:
Sept 15

VANCOUVER COMMUNITY COLLEGE (2 campuses):
Sept 16 and 22

UNIVERSITY-COLLEGE OF THE FRASER VALLEY:
Sept 20

BRITISH COLUMBIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY:
Sept 19

**Monday Sept 12th:

DOUGLAS COLLEGE:
Iraq: Over 2 Years Under Occupation
Forum and Discussion
2pm | Douglas Students’ Union Lounge

UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA:
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive
Co-Sponsored by the AMS Coalition Against War on the
People of Iraq and Internationally (CAWOPI)

KWANTLEN – Langley Campus
Canada Out of Afghanistan Petition Drive
10am to 4pm | Main concourse

What do Iraq and Afghanistan Have in Common?
Forum and Discussion
4pm | Student Lounge

**Tuesday Sept 13th:

DOUGLAS COLLEGE
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive
Co Sponsored by the Douglas Students' Union

What is Canada Doing in Afghanistan?
Forum and Discussion
4pm | Douglas Students’ Union Lounge
Co Sponsored by the Douglas Students' Union

UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
Iraq: Over 2 Years Under Occupation
Forum and Discussion
12pm | Room 207/209
Co-Sponsored by the AMS Coalition Against War on the
People of Iraq and Internationally (CAWOPI)

KWANTLEN - Newton Campus
Canada Out of Afghanistan Petition Drive
10am to 4pm | Main concourse

**Wednesday Sept 14th:

DOUGLAS COLLEGE (David Lam Campus)
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive
Co Sponsored by the Douglas Students' Union

UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
Afghanistan and the Canadian War Drive
Forum and Discussion
12pm | Room 207/209
Co-Sponsored by the AMS Coalition Against War on the
People of Iraq and Internationally (CAWOPI)

KWANTLEN – Richmond Campus
Canada Out of Afghanistan Petition Drive
10am to 4pm | Main concourse

What do Iraq and Afghanistan Have in Common?
Forum and Discussion
4pm | Student Lounge

**Thursday Sept 15th:

UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
From Campus to Combat: UBC Connections to War
Forum and Discussion
12pm | Outside SUB North Side
Co-Sponsored by the AMS Coalition Against War on the
People of Iraq and Internationally (CAWOPI)

KWANTLEN – Surrey Campus
Canada Out of Afghanistan Petition Drive
10am to 4pm | Main concourse

What do Iraq and Afghanistan Have in Common?
Forum and Discussion
4pm | Fish Bowl Student Lounge

UNIVERSITY OF VICTORIA
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive

**Friday Sept 16th:

VANCOUVER COMMUNITY COLLEGE (King Edward Campus)
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive

**Monday Sept 19th:

CAPILANO COLLEGE
Is Iran the Next Iraq?
Forum and Discussion
12:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

“Fallujah 2004” – Brand New Film on the Occupation of
Iraq
Film Showing
3:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

LANGARA COLLEGE
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive
Co Sponsored by Langara Students United Against War
and Occupation

BRITISH COLUMBIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive

**Tuesday Sept 20th:

CAPILANO COLLEGE
Capilano Students Support War Resisiters
Forum and Discussion with KYLE - A US WAR RESISTER!
12:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

“Hearts and Minds” – On the Vietnam War and Antiwar
Movement in US
Film Showing
3:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union


LANGARA COLLEGE
What is the Government of Canada Doing in Afghanistan?
Forum and Discussion
1:30pm | B Building (Room TBA)
Co Sponsored by Langara Students United Against War
and Occupation

SIMON FRASER UNIVERSITY
Canada Out of Afghanistan! Canada Out of Haiti!
Petition Drive
10:30am – 3:30pm | AQ Building
Co Sponsored by the SFU MAWO Club

UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF THE FRASER VALLEY
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive

**Wednesday Sept 21st:

CAPILANO COLLEGE
Hip Hop Against War and Occupation
Show with local MC’s and DJ’s
12:30pm | Library Square
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

“A Caged Bird’s Song” – On the Fight for Education in
Palestine
Film Showing
3:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

LANGARA COLLEGE
Iraq for Iraqis: Why students should demand an
immediate end to the Occupation of Iraq
Forum and Discussion
1:30pm | B Building (Room TBA)
Co Sponsored by Langara Students United Against War
and Occupation

SIMON FRASER UNIVERSITY
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive
10:30 am – 3:30pm | AQ Building
Co Sponsored by the SFU MAWO Club

**Thursday Sept 22nd:

CAPILANO COLLEGE
Canada Out of Afghanistan!
Forum and Discussion
12:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

“Kanehsatake: 270 Years of Resistance” – On the
struggle at Oka against the theft of Indigenous land
by the Government of Canada
Film Showing
3:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

LANGARA COLLEGE
The War at Home Since Sept 11: Anti-Terrorism or
Terrorizing the People?
Forum and Discussion
1:30pm | B Building (Room TBA)
Co Sponsored by Langara Students United Against War
and Occupation

SIMON FRASER UNIVERSITY
Money for Education Not for War! Canada Out of
Afghanistan, US/UK Out of Iraq!
Forum and Discussion
2:30pm | Forum Chambers
Co Sponsored by the SFU MAWO Club

VANCOUVER COMMUNITY COLLEGE (City Centre)
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive

**Friday Sept 23rd:

UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
Antiwar, Anti-Occupation Films
Featuring: Fallujah: 2004 and A Caged Bird’s Song
11am | Location TBA
Co-Sponsored by the AMS Coalition Against War on the
People of Iraq and Internationally (CAWOPI)

CAPILANO COLLEGE
Canada In, Canada Out! Student Antiwar Network
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN! RECRUITERS OFF OUR CAMPUS!
Petition Drive
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

**Tuesday Sept 27th:

CAPILANO COLLEGE
Free the 5 Cuban Heros Held in US Jails!
Forum and Discussion
12:30pm | CSU Lounge (Maple Building)
Co Sponsored by the Capilano Students Union

**Saturday October 1st:

CULTURAL NIGHT, WRAP-UP PARTY & FUNDRAISER FOR THE
STUDENT WEEK AGAINST WAR AND OCCUPATION
El Cocal Restaurant (1037 Commercial Dr)
Doors: 7pm | Show: 8pm
Tickets at the door, by donation
Hip Hop and anti-war performances to be announced -
see www.mawovancouver.org for updates

********************
Saturday Sept 24th:
********************

I N T E R N A T I O N A L D A Y O F A C T I O N!

US/UK OUT OF IRAQ!
CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!

Self-Determination for Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan,
Haiti and Indigenous Nations in Canada!
US/EU Hands Off Iran and Syria! US Hands off Cuba and
Venezuela!
Bring All Troops Home Now! Stop the War at Home and
Abroad!

FEATURING:

TIM LOUIS (Vancouver City Councilor)
KYLE (US War Resister living in Vancouver)
BUD OSBORNE (Renowned Poet and Activist)
... and representatives from the BC Labour and Student
movements, Indigenous and Muslim communities.

SEPTEMBER 24 2005
RALLY AND MARCH
3PM | VANCOUVER ART GALLERY

quote:

---

The occupation may not be great, but it's infinately preferable to pulling forces out and letting these countries descend into violence and chaos.

---

Yes, and that was the standard right-wing argument about why the Vietnam war had to go on forever; there would be a "bloodbath" if the troops left.

But the troops perpetuated the bloodbath.

It's the same in Iraq. The last poster says that Iraq will "descend into violence" if the troops are removed.

But here's what's happening in Iraq, today, because of the occupation:

quote:

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Up to 100 people were killed and more than 150 injured in Baghdad today by a suicide bomber who enticed a crowd of labourers to his minibus with promises of work before detonating 500kg of explosive...

---

That's only one of several bombings....

As for the idea that Iraqis want the troops to stay, here's what the Iraqi President said yesterday:

quote:

---

The US could withdraw as many as 50,000 troops from Iraq by the end of the year because there are enough Iraqi forces ready to begin taking control of parts of the country, Iraqi President Jalal Talabani told the Washington Post.

In an interview with the newspaper that was published yesterday, Talabani said he would discuss reductions in US forces during a private meeting with President George W. Bush and said he thought the US could pull some troops out immediately.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andrew_Jay:

The occupation may not be great, but it's infinately preferable to pulling forces out and letting these countries descend into violence and chaos.

---

Do you think you are the first person to express this idea here?

News flash: Iraq descended into violence and chaos quite some time ago.

And you honestly think things will get better without foreign forces in the country trying to provide security?

100+ people were killed today, not because U.S. forces are there, but because a state which houses ethnic groups full of animosity towards each other has broken down. The Sunnis aren't going to suddenly love the Shi'ites when the Americans leave.

We owe it to the people of Iraq to see them through this tragedy (the April 2003 invasion), help bring about some order, and give them the chance to put their constitution and government in order.

quote:

---

Andrew_Jay: And you honestly think things will get better without foreign forces in the country trying to provide security?

---

Translation: the Iraqis can't govern themselves and they need Uncle Sam to permanently occupy the country and control the Iraqi oil supply take "charge" and give the Iraqis "lessons" on democracy since, as we all know, the US is such a good example of a democratic country.

quote:

---

A_J: ... a state which houses ethnic groups full of animosity towards each other has broken down. The Sunnis aren't going to suddenly love the Shi'ites when the Americans leave.

---

Translation: Divide and rule worked for the Romans. It worked for the British in India. Why can't it work for the Byzantine Empire of the USA in Iraq?

quote:

---

We owe it to the people of Iraq to see them through this tragedy (the April 2003 invasion), help bring about some order, and give them the chance to put their constitution and government in order.

---

We owe it to the people of Iraq to help drive these new barbarians from the west, that call themselves "Americans", our of their country forever and let the wealth of Iraq go to the Iraqi people. The USA needs a good shit-kicking again, just as they got a shit-kicking in Viet-Nam. But it would be a good idea to drive them out of Iraq faster than they were driven out of Viet Nam. Then the USA might be able to clean up the goddam mess in the Mississippi delta and New Orleans area that they should have done a long time ago.

Uncle Sam needs to wipe his ass and clean up his own goddam mess and keep his long, stinking nose out of other countries. All other countries. And may the USA learn this lesson sooner rather than later; that will save the lives of many people, not the least of which are the cannon fodder of US troops themselves.

quote:

---

A pull-out would destroy Iraq and Afghanistan.

---

Hey George Orwell! We got a live one here!

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

100+ people were killed today, not because U.S. forces are there, but because a state which houses ethnic groups full of animosity towards each other has broken down

---

quote:

---

We owe it to the people of Iraq to see them through this tragedy (the April 2003 invasion), help bring about some order, and give them the chance to put their constitution and government in order.

---

quote:

---

Uncle Sam needs to wipe his ass and clean up his own goddam mess

---

quote:

---

Security forces inside Iraq borders would have to be at the invitation of Iraqi citizens for it to be acceptable - perhaps the US could just write the cheque to pay for it all?

---

[ 14 September 2005: Message edited by: Andrew_Jay ]

quote:

---

A_J: The democratically elected Iraqi government is for the time being quite satisfied with the American presence.

---

quote:

---

Monthly Review: Notes from the Editors: The U.S. rigging of the elections—for example by reportedly funneling millions of dollars and other support into Allawi’s campaign—has been impossible to hide. Given that the Sunnis were already effectively shut out of the election by the nature of the occupation itself, and that most candidates’ names were kept secret during the electoral campaign, the election in Iraq has to be regarded as one of the most bizarre and fraudulent in all of history.(See Seymour M. Hersh, “Get Out the Vote: Did Washington Manipulate Iraq’s Election?,” The New Yorker, July 25, 2005.)

---

Try again, minion ...

[ 14 September 2005: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

Try again, quisling.

---

Yes, my support for a continued foreign presence in Iraq in the hopes that it can stem the violence that is targetting the Iraqi people is identical to supporting the Nazi take-over of Norway. Identical

[ 14 September 2005: Message edited by: Andrew_Jay ]

So let's just cut to the chase. In your "objective" view, has the US done anything wrong in Iraq? How do you feel about the torture that's gone on there in Abu-G? How do you feel about the lie that was the justification for the invasion of Iraq in the first place? Where are those WMDs anyway? How do you feel about the sovereingty of states anyway? How do you feel about an election where the names of the candidates are kept secret from the population? [Oh yea - you think that's a "democractic" election. ] Or did I hurt your feelings too much and now you can't argue about anything except what bad words you've been called?

Here's a hint: If you haven't got anything useful to help the anti-war effort to get the US troops out of Iraq then maybe you're in the wrong thread. Or the wrong website.

[ 14 September 2005: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

However, in the real world, we're stuck with choosing between the lesser of two evils - a continued U.S. presence in Iraq until the government and security forces are on their feet versus an Iraq abandoned to the violence that has broken out in it.

Hint, one of these are worse for the Iraqi people - at this point infinately more civilians are being killed by insurgents/terrorists than American troops.

Also, I'm very sorry for making the rash assumption that this was a forum for discussion. I have no idea how I made that mistake

Do I want American forces out of Iraq? Sure I do. Do I want them out tomorrow, or next month? Definately not. That's what really annoys me when the anti-war movement takes this form - it does nothing to help the real problem and is instead a selfish appeal to your own distrust of American motives.

[ 14 September 2005: Message edited by: Andrew_Jay ]

Sunnis and Shiites have be at odds for a very long time (hundreds of years). For a more western perspective, think Ireland and the Catholic and the Protestants. The only reason there was a relative peace under Saddam, was he knew his people (somewhat) and ruled them with an iron fist.

It would seem that most people have missed or ignored the fact, that the 150+ people killed in the latest round of suicide bombings in Iraq were for the most part Iraqis. The Americans were not targeted. The majority of those killed had nothing to do with the Americans (a very small percentage of the Bahgdad population works for the Americans). These are not the actions of insurgents fighting an occupied force. These are the actions of terrorists trying to exert their own control on the country.

Yes the Americans have fucked the whole thing up. They were wrong to go in on the pretenses that they did. They did lie to the world on the reasoning. Yes, they have commited crimes which would (and do) have me frothing at the mouth screaming war crimes.

But, let us now stop at the accusations and look at more facts being overlooked. We always remember the bad that people do to us, and others, and we almost always overlook the good (this is true in my life, and yours). So, we will always remember the reserve MP detachment in Abu Gharib. We will forget that the coalition have brought in food, medical supplies, and have been rebuilding the infrastructure (hydro, communications, hospitals, schools, roads etc).

Frankly, given the size of the American force in Iraq, if all American soldiers were bad, or even a sizeable percentage, we would be reading about such things as Abu Garhib on a daily basis, and more then half the Iraq population would be dead or dying now.

Did the Americans fuck things up? Most definatly, and the world must not forget that ever. For them to leave now, cold turkey, would be as big a crime though. The "insurgents" as some here like to call them are not partial to the idea of an Iraq of equals. They want a Sunni Iraq.

For the US to leave now, they would have to divide the country, the Sunnis get their part, the Shiites theirs, and the Kurds theirs. The question is, how do you divide a military that includes Sunnis and Shiites, and to a lesser extent the Kurds in a way that all are mutually protected?

Yes, the president of Iraq has suggested that some of the American forces can go home. He does now have a military force, and police. I am curious to see how the Americans react (I can not find the source at the moment, and unfortunatly will not get a chance till Sun or Mon night now). Please do note that I said some, the number I beleive he said was 50,000. (I have friends in the 10th Moutain Division who would be thrilled to find out they do not have to go back to that place, so I hope it is correct, and that the Americans heed this suggestion.)

[ 14 September 2005: Message edited by: Reason ]

Followed closely, of course, by Why don't you address my argument?, as if Babble were some Monty Python skit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Transplant:
[qb]Ad Hominem has got to be the No. 1 favorite phrase of trolls.

Followed closely, of course, by Why don't you address my argument?, as if Babble were some Monty Python skit.

Hmmmm, errr, never mind.[/QB]

---

In all fairness, it is not Andrew that started with the name calling, nor did he return the favour. Beltov did attack Andrew personally, and very little of the substance (if he had a point to make, he failed). He has not acted in the least bit trollish to date...

Is what he saying uncomfortable to you?! Well, yes, and it bloody well should be, it is to me (and I am on the "right" side of the fence so to speak) and it appears to be to Andrew.

quote:

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A_J: Of course the U.S. presence has been one disaster from another, I have never said anything in support of the war in the first place. It shouldn't have happened, it was conducted terribly, there is little good to say about it.

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Except you ARE saying things in support of the US war of aggression in Iraq. For example, you've defended the fraudulent "election" held there and you've used that to justify the continuing occupation there.

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However, in the real world, we're stuck with choosing between the lesser of two evils - a continued U.S. presence in Iraq until the government and security forces are on their feet versus an Iraq abandoned to the violence that has broken out in it.

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In the real world, false dichotomies are developed in order to justify continuing atrocities. The biggest cause of violence in Iraq is the continuing US occupation. And the solution is for the US to get out of Iraq. Now.

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Also, I'm very sorry for making the rash assumption that this was a forum for discussion.

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It's a forum for progressive ideas. Anti-war ideas, in this case. Don't pretend you're being progressive when the result of following your thinking and advice would be to demobilize the upcoming demonstrations and mass actions against the US occupation of Iraq. What disingenious crap.

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That's what really annoys me when the anti-war movement takes this form - it does nothing to help the real problem and is instead a selfish appeal to your own distrust of American motives.

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The US doesn't have "the right" to occupy any country other than their own. Unless, of course, you believe that they can do no wrong and, therefore, are entitled to rampage across planet Earth at will. In which case, you're still acting the part of a "minion" for US imperialism and my so-called personal remark is a statement of fact.

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

As Linda would say "It's the crude, dude."

PS: Not to be construed that I don't support the march - I do support it and wish I could be there. But one must be realistic about the Bush administration.

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: Américain Égalitaire ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Nothing is cast in stone, friend. There aren't any US troops in Viet Nam anymore, are there?

damn. Work gets in the way of a good babbling...

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I guarantee you if there was significant oil discovered in Vietnam today, the US would become very interested again.

Look, don't get me wrong - I hate the war and everything associated with it. I just believe the real reason we're there and the criticality of that oil to our "non-negotiable" way of life makes it impossible to ever leave all that oil to fate to the Chinese.

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N.B.: The biggest cause of violence in Iraq is the continuing US occupation.

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There are very deep ethnic divisions in Iraq, between Sunnis, Shi'ites, and Kurds. Do you actually think that the terrorists carrying out bombings - 26 policemen were killed today, 150+ civilians yesterday - are going to suddenly stop when the U.S. leaves? They hardly bother even targetting foreign forces anymore, they'd rather terrorise the Shi'ite population in the hopes of a return to Sunni minority dominance and dictatorship.

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N.B.:The US doesn't have "the right" to occupy any country other than their own. Unless, of course, you believe that they can do no wrong and, therefore, are entitled to rampage across planet Earth at will. In which case, you're still acting the part of a "minion" for US imperialism and my so-called personal remark is a statement of fact.

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N.B.:It's a forum for progressive ideas. Anti-war ideas, in this case.

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I think it's great that people are still mobilised and energetic in questioning and opposing the U.S.'s actions. However, these demands to remove U.S. and foreign troops from Afghanistan and Iraq totally and immediately are hopelessly naive and display a real ignorance of the situation.

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: Andrew_Jay ]

The issue now is what is the best course of action from the point of view of the Iraqi peoples?

It seems clear enough that the American forces should withdraw at the earliest opportunity. The only question is what is the most humane way to manage this, with respect to the shredded Iraqi social fabric.

The replacement of one bloody tyrant with an equally sociopathic if less competent import has meant that factional tensions are boiling over and these will presumably not suddenly cease upon the invaders' withdrawal.

It must be said, that the anticipation of just such a filthy bloody mess was one of the strong cases against the war in the first place; that it would open a Pandora's box, and this seems to be playing out exactly as predicted. Which doesn't actually contribute to any solution, but the point needs to be underlined.

No...the Americans need to leave, they have no credibility, they're only in there for corporate oil interests and the darker grab bag of imperial/personal motives occupying the troubled minds of the ruling Bush clique; likewise, the so-called first steps towards democracy need to be rolled back so the process can be started afresh without the taint of superpower meddling - the millions funneled to Allawi's campaign, the consequent disenfranchisement of significant sectors of the population, etc - and perhaps this might best occur under a principally Arab peacekeeping force, carefully balanced with an eye to factionalism, etc.

Iraq itself, like so many non-Western states, is a bastard creation of colonialism so I suppose there is no overarching need to sustain it as a sovereign state; except that to supercede that would be to wipe away a century or so of facts on the ground which did bring the region up to a certain level...yes, its all rather complicated. More information needed.

But an IMMEDIATE withdrawal must be the goal. This does not mean decamping without paying the bill, rather, an orderly retreat leaving practical non-aligned civil structures on the ground to undertake the nation-building which has to follow. A tall order to be sure.

Likewise, what form the subsequent nation takes is frankly none of our business. From the sidelines we might call for representative democracy (just as we might call for that here at home)...the UN might have some useful ideas...but in truth it's really none of our business. I don't know that Baghdad has a lot of clout in the Canadian Houses of Parliament or in Washington, and why the obverse should be the case i cannot see.

Er, I see that all I have done is paraphrase Thwap, who puts it far more concisely. Well then, a simple 'Hear hear' will do.

[ 15 September 2005: Message edited by: Merowe ]

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Originally posted by nister:
Why is a bugout of Gaza the right thing to do, but a bugout of Iraq irresponsible?

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Sept. 24, 2005 - A FREE MUSIC FESTIVAL TO STOP THE WAR IN IRAQ!
 
THIEVERY CORPORATION - BOUNCING SOULS
LE TIGRE - THE COUP - STEVE EARLE - TED LEO + THE PHARMACISTS
WAYNE KRAMER OF THE MC5 WITH THE BELLRAYS
Sweet Honey in the Rock and The Evens.
HEAD-ROC - HOSTED BY JELLO BIAFRA
 
Join Operation Ceasefire, a new coalition of concerned musicians, for a massive anti-war concert/rally at the Washington Monument on September 24th. This event will be a centerpiece of what is expected to be 4 days of enormous protests in nation's capital in support of a full withdrawal of U.S. forces from the quagmire in Iraq. The concert will bring together musical acts such as: Thievery Corporation, punk rock and independent musicians LeTigre, Bouncing Souls, Ted Leo & The Pharmacists; country music artist Steve Earle, rock and soul band the Bellrays; latin musicians Machetres, socially conscious hip-hop groups The Coup and Head-Roc; and even long time activists Wayne Kramer of the MC5, Jello Biafra and Greg Palast will be involved in this event!
 
With over 60% of the public currently opposed to the war in Iraq, this concert is a fun way we can all come together and demand that this Congress and this administration bring our troops home and start a well over due Ceasefire!

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nister: Why is a bugout of Gaza the right thing to do, but a bugout of Iraq irresponsible?

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Why, because minions friends of the USA know that Israel, another good friend of the USA, is increasing the occupation of the West Bank while noisily pulling out of (the now encircled) Gaza strip. And pulling out of Iraq doesn't come with free oil fields in Iran, Venezuela or some other country for the USA. So they will just have to save face ....and keep occupying Iraq, keep stealing Iraqi oil and keep building the insurgency into a full blown war of National Liberation.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Why, because minions friends of the USA know that Israel, another good friend of the USA, is increasing the occupation of the West Bank while noisily pulling out of (the now encircled) Gaza strip. And pulling out of Iraq doesn't come with free oil fields in Iran, Venezuela or some other country for the USA. So they will just have to save face ....and keep occupying Iraq, keep stealing Iraqi oil and keep building the insurgency into a full blown war of National Liberation.

But for now, the US is content to sow discord among Sunni, Shi-ite and Kurd. It's the imperial way, dontcha know?

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I know this is lost on you, but it has to be said. The discord... No, the absolute hatred, and desire to remove each other from the face of the planet is the one thing the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis have had in common for the past coupkle of hundred years. This is not a new thing.

If by sowing discord you meant the colition insiting that any Iraqi government represents all of the Iraqi people, you are right. The Sunni insurgents do not want this (as with all things, not all Sunnis are not at all like this).

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Reason: I know this is lost on you, but it has to be said. The discord... No, the absolute hatred, and desire to remove each other from the face of the planet is the one thing the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis have had in common for the past coupkle of hundred years. This is not a new thing.

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Sounds racist to me. This is the typical sort of construction of apologists for US imperialism generally: the locals are unable to govern themselves, they're bloodthirsty killers of each other, etc. Of course the question about how it is that the US, or any other country for that matter, has the right to stick their fucking noses into the affairs of other people - all this is conveniently avoided by such racist sounding generalizations.

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If by sowing discord you meant the colition insiting that any Iraqi government represents all of the Iraqi people, you are right. The Sunni insurgents do not want this (as with all things, not all Sunnis are not at all like this).

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Then why were the Sunnis effectively excluded from the election? Why don't you address the issue raised by Monthly Review: the US funding of Allawi to the tune of millions of dollars, hiding the names of candidates during the elctions, etc.?

The bigger the anti-war movement the better. The more the US takes a horrible pounding in Iraq, the more the occupation of Iraq costs the US, the more Iraqis are united in their utter hatred and contempt for the US - the better. The more the world community rejects this crazed juggernaut the better.

The US seems determined to learn only through violence. For the moment, it is only the violence of Mother Nature that is teaching the US lessons. The political leaders of the US are like King Canute who was so stupid that he believed he could order the tide to stop and the sea to obey him. But the sea did not obey the maniac in the White House who, like his predecessor, cut infrastructure funding enough that the great birthplace of those original American forms of music, gifts to the whole world, of jazz and blues, is now buried under feet of toxic sludge and sewer water. USA! USA! How many homeless did you create today?

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Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
the wick effect -produced by beeswax- is very similar to a nuclear explosion...both are chain reactions that scale with materials used

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physics is a strange thing...nuclear/quantum (small scale), astro (large scale), gravity (small + large), meta (spiritual scale)....strong (quark) and weak (radioactivity) force...electromagnetism (+/-)....photon../particle/wave....radiation/spectrum/frequency/modulation....spin

true, true...a burning wax wick flame doesn't burn/use/change a mass equal to the energy produced in a nuclear weapon core that causes higher spectrum explosion in a relative timeframe...but both cause radiations in certain spectrums

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Originally posted by CourtneyGQuinn:
'lance---

ya, i've read about the t-mite potential for military...

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Wash Post - Demonstration Will Be the First Since the District Passed Arrest Law

D.C. police have canceled days off and are planning to deploy several hundred officers during an antiwar demonstration next weekend that will include a march near the White House, but officials said they expect no trouble.

NY Times - An antiwar speech by Cindy Sheehan, the mother of an American soldier killed in Iraq, was cut short yesterday after the organizer of the event was arrested and police officers confiscated his audio equipment.

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Top Bush adviser Karl Rove, in leaked off-the-record comments this week, reportedly challenged the idea that a new protest movement is building in opposition to the Iraq war. He is said to have mocked Gold Star mom Cindy Sheehan as a "clown," and to have said something along the lines of, "There is no real antiwar movement."
Whether by intention or not, Rove's comments challenge Sheehan and protestors around the nation to prove him wrong this weekend when a huge antiwar rally is scheduled to take place in Washington, D.C., along with companion rallies in other cities...

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Antiwar Protesters Hope to Turn Momentum Into a Movement

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Seeking to capitalize on the momentum, Cagan's United for Peace and Justice and the ANSWER Coalition have organized a rally and encirclement of the White House on Saturday morning that they hope will draw 100,000. That will be followed by Operation Ceasefire, an 11-hour concert featuring Joan Baez, Steve Earle, Thievery Corporation and the Coup. United for Peace and Justice is planning more antiwar activities for Sunday and Monday. The overall message: Bring the troops home now .

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Toronto Coalition to Stop the War

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On September 24, activists in the US, UK, and Canada will mobilize in their tens of thousands to demand an end to the bloody US occupation of Iraq. Since the war began in 2003, over 100,000 Iraqis have been killed and more than 1,700 US and UK soldiers have died. Torture by US forces is rampant. Cities have been levelled under US bombs.

This occupation is a disaster and opposition to it is growing. The anti-war movement is at a turning point. After recent terrorist attacks in London, it is now even more urgent to end the occupation of Iraq and to say no to a world of war and terror.

Join this protest to demand the withdrawal of US troops now and to urge the Canadian government to let US war resisters stay in this country like they were during the Vietnam War.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Top Bush adviser Karl Rove, in leaked off-the-record comments this week, reportedly challenged the idea that a new protest movement is building in opposition to the Iraq war. He is said to have mocked Gold Star mom Cindy Sheehan as a "clown," and to have said something along the lines of, "There is no real antiwar movement."

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More than 100,000 protesters flooded Washington for dual demonstrations against the US-led war in Iraq and economic globalisation, before coming together to demand that US President George W Bush bring troops home.

Thousands marched in London as well, and protests were planned in San Francisco and Los Angeles that called for an end to military action in Iraq nearly 30 months after an invasion ousted Saddam Hussein.

"We need a people's movement to end this war," said Cindy Sheehan, an anti-war protester whose son was killed in fighting in Iraq....

"We'll be the checks and balances on this out-of-control criminal government," Sheehan, who has become the anti-war movement's best-known face, told the group gathered at the Ellipse, a park behind the White House.

The crowds swelled throughout the day, and by late afternoon organisers of the anti-war demonstration said 300,000 people had assembled - exceeding an anticipated 100,000. Washington police declined to comment on the size of the rally.

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[ 24 September 2005: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Opponents of the war in Iraq marched Saturday in a clamorous day of protest, song and remembrance of the dead, some showing surprisingly diverse political views even as they spoke with one loud voice in wanting U.S. troops home.

The surging crowd, shouting "Bush out now" and "Peace now," marched in front of the White House and then to the Washington Monument in an 11-hour marathon of dissent.

They were young people with green hair, nuns whose anti-war activism dates to Vietnam, parents mourning their children in uniform lost in Iraq, and uncountable families motivated for the first time to protest.

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[ 24 September 2005: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Thousands protest against Iraq war

Staff and agencies
Saturday September 24, 2005

Anti-war demonstrators gathered today for a march in central London on the eve of the Labour Party conference to demand that the government withdraw all British troops in Iraq.
Scotland Yard estimated that as many as 10,000 people had joined by the time the protest had reached Hyde Park at 2.10pm, although organisers put numbers at anything up to 100,000.
Earlier, hundreds of protesters converged on College Green outside the House of Lords amid heavy police security.
Crash barriers lined the streets and surrounded Parliament Square where last year's protest against the foxhunting bill had descended into violence.
More campaigners continued to arrive as the protest prepared to start on its route through Whitehall and on to Hyde Park.
People holding banners inscribed with slogans including "Bush world no 1 terrorist", "No war, no nukes" and "Blair's taking liberties, troops home now" swarmed on every piece of grass available.
At 1.20pm a group of protesters holding hands around a banner demanding: "Troops home from Iraq," led the march past the war memorial and on to Trafalgar Square.
At least 50 policemen and three police vans watched as they marched past the entrance to Downing Street.
Some campaigners shouted towards No 10: "Down with Downing Street, " and "Stop the bombings."

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_
From Caitriona Palmer in Washington DC

_
THE biggest gathering of anti-war protestors in America since the invasion of Iraq came together outside the White House yesterday demanding the end of the war in Iraq and the immediate withdrawal of US troops.

Under the gaze of uniformed sharp shooters huddled on the roof of the White House, speakers rallied the crowd, estimated by police to be at least 100,000-strong, to frenzied cries of “Troops Out Now” and “No More War”. President Bush was not in the building at the time, having left to monitor hurricane relief efforts in Houston.

“We’re here to show our government and media that we mean business and that we’re not going home until every one of our troops is home”, shouted Cindy Sheehan to screams of approval from the crowd. Sheehan, who lost her 24-year old son in Iraq, has galvanized the anti-war movement by spending a summer in vigil outside the Texas ranch of President Bush.

She was supported yesterday by Scottish mother Rose Gentle, who travelled to Washington last Monday to join Sheehan on her US tour. Gentle’s 19-year-old son Gordon, a Royal Highland Fusilier, was killed by a roadside bomb in Basra last June.

Their anti-war message was driven home later by another Scot, George Galloway. The MP for Bethnal Green, currently on a speaking tour in the US, told the crowd: “My presence on this demonstration and peace activist Tom Hayden’s on the London rally is a recognition of the fact that our two leaders are the biggest rogue leaders in the world and that we are standing shoulder to shoulder, united in opposing them.

“We are the ones who love the soldiers. We love them so much we don’t want them to die for Bush and Blair’s pack of lies.”

As a festival atmosphere prevailed, families with young children picnicked on the grass while weathered anti-war activists held aloft peace signs and rainbow flags. Venders under white tents conducted a brisk trade in anti-war memorabilia. A woman in denim stood holding an apple pie and sign that read: “Mom, Apple Pie And Peace.”

Wearing a T-shirt that read: “My Man Is In Iraq And I Want him Back”, 25-year-old Katey Dyck held aloft a photograph of her husband, Scott Dyck, 31, who is currently serving in the US army in Baghdad.

“He hates it there,” she said. “It’s hard to be shot at every day and not know why you’re there to begin with. Why send my husband to a war based on a lie?”

I heard through the grapevine that the MAWO rally at the VaNcouver Art Gallery drew a crowd of about 200 people, mostly the usual supects. MAWO holds rallies on a monthly basis.

What's the Deal? Have Canadians stopped caring about the Iraqi people (to the extent that the Canadian population in general ever cared about the fate of the Iraqis)? And when the American people finally decide to stand up to their president, are we not willing to join them in solidarity? I am truly disgusted at the lack of mobilisation by the Canadian people on this global day of action against the war in Iraq.

[ 24 September 2005: Message edited by: Left Turn ]

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Originally posted by Left Turn:
Only about 100 people showed up to the Stopwar rally in Vancouver. The rally had not been widely publicized; only short notice had been given.

I heard through the grapevine that the MAWO rally at the VaNcouver Art Gallery drew a crowd of about 200 people, mostly the usual supects. MAWO holds rallies on a monthly basis.

What's the Deal? Have Canadians stopped caring about the Iraqi people (to the extent that the Canadian population in general ever cared about the fate of the Iraqis)? And when the American people finally decide to stand up to their president, are we not willing to join them in solidarity? I am truly disgusted at the lack of mobilisation by the Canadian people on this global day of action against the war in Iraq.

[ 24 September 2005: Message edited by: Left Turn ]

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I got the impression that this was mostly a U.S. event.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
800 in downtown Toronto is a handful? I thought the turn out was fairly decent, the speakers were amazing and yes, I have photos.

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I did read 150 in vancouver and 200 in Montreal but my shiny new subscription to the Mop and Pail does not even mention canadian demonstrations.

8oo you say? Out of a metro population of 5-6 million? Is this good?

The Bushies will continue until fate and inevitability stop them.

Outlandist, I think you need to look in the mirror before you accuse other people of snarkiness.

[ 25 September 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

I know that about 10-15 of us wanted to go but could not on Shabbat.

but i am glad we had a good turnout in Toronto.

[ 25 September 2005: Message edited by: miles ]

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800 in downtown Toronto is a handful? I thought the turn out was fairly decent, the speakers were amazing and yes, I have photos.

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I was at the demo and agree entirely with this coment. I think there were quite a few more than 800; certainly the marchers covered a number of city blocks when they were in motion.

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Hinterland: The Bushies will continue until fate and inevitability stop them.

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It's disappointing to read this on a progressive website. It's already clear that the Bush regime is in deep damage control mode and that former US government insiders are publicly expressing doubts about the current US policy on Iraq. Furthermore, the US is having to rely upon countries like Canada to relieve US troops in places like Afghanistan because the US is spread so thin. Imperialism is expensive.

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Hinterland: I just think we're all pretty sure the protesting won't do anything....Why would a protest, in Canada at least, contribute much to ending it?

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Don't you remember your first demonstration, Hinterland?

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Yeah, I remember it. It was to protest the police's ham-fisted treatment of customers during a raid on a gay bar in Montreal. Took 10 more years of AIDS deaths before the people who have power in this society understood they were facing a catastrophe acute enough to realise, in the grand scheme of things, that the social stigma that marginalised gay people was close to becoming a crime against humanity.

No, wait. I'm wrong. The first protest I went to was the walkout/protest I organised when the School Board to which my French-language high school belonged to (and which contributed 40% of the students under the Board) voted down a proposal to add a French-language version of its name. When that happened, the anglophone trustees stood up and applauded (which actually triggered the walkout). We were all suspended for 3 days. It took two Québec referendums before they changed the name.

I understand the value of protesting and I don't want to sound as if I support apathy, but I am quite convinced that power elites will rarely change their tunes unless a real threat looms.

At this point, the threat is clearly one of their own making, and inevitable. As Skdadl said, I'm just marking time.

[ 25 September 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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We were all suspended for 3 days.

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Outlandist, I think you need to look in the mirror before you accuse other people of snarkiness.

Mr. Hinterland. Moi? Snarky? Never. Your unprovoked personal attack on Happy Conservative demanded that I offer comment to defuse the situation.Sadly,your sensitivity to your own plight does not extend to others.In future I will utilise emoticons.

My appologies for the drift and I will not respond furthur.I leave you with the words of Mr. Hephaestion:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Oh, I agree, Andrew. Hinterland may be right: a lot of people are either feeling disheartened or they just feel as though we're marking time right now.

Unfortunately, there's that special squad in Afghanistan ...

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Very interesting that the new Chief of defense Staff general Hillier made political comments regarding the Taliban.

Lately,the government has allowed the MOD to release info on JTF2 and to admit the special forces commandos are in the Khandahar area,under US command and tasked with killing people.

If I were a cynical person, I would assume that the Liberals are posturing in order to sway right leaning voters and that General Hillier has willingly been set up as the fall guy if the political optics are unfavourable.

After receiving 6 month deployments to Afghanistan,Reserve CF members have been quietly informed that their rotation will be for only 3 months.

There is an election coming,most likely sooner rather than later and judicious saber rattling is just the ticket to entice moderate conservatives to vote liberal.

With the NDP pushing from the left, the Librano braintrust will move right to poach disillusioned conservatives.

---------------------------------

September 24: Global Day of Action - MAWO Mobilizes 900 in Vancouver Against Canada's Occupation of Afghanistan and War & Occupation in Iraq!

100ft Banner Dropped From Burrard Bridge!

PHOTOS: www.mawovancouver.org

September 24th 2005 saw hundreds of thousands of people across the globe come to the streets to echo the demands of the Iraqi people for an end to war and occupation. Over 900 people joined Vancouver’s antiwar coalition, Mobilization Against War and Occupation (MAWO) to demand: “US/UK OUT OF IRAQ! CANADA OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!”

Coast Salish Elder Kelly White welcomed the teeming crowd on the territory of her Indigenous nation. Kyle, a US war resister then took the stage with the most moving, powerful and passionate speech of the day. Kyle, having just served as a US soldier in Iraq, spoke of the transition he made to become an anti-war fighter and a War Resister seeking refugee status in Canada. The crowd of hundreds was silent, focused and enraptured with the words of this courageous young man.

Tim Louis began speaking with saying to Kyle and the crowd “As a Vancouver city Councilor, without any authority, without the authority of the mayor, I pronounce you an honorary citizen of Vancouver!” The crowd erupted in cheers.

The program continued with Vietnam War draft dodger and renowned Downtown Eastside poet Bud Osborn, followed by Rain DeGuzman of the Capilano College War Resisters Support Committee, Tamara Hansen of Vancouver Communities in Solidarity with Cuba, soul poet Adeline and Nita Palmer of UBC Coalition Against War on the People of Iraq and Internationally.

News media from Global BC, CTV and other local and community based radio, newspapers and television were present to cover the program and rally.

Kicking off the march was the local hip-hop crew Influents, who opened their set chanting “Education Not Occupation!” and went on to play an anti-war themed set which energized the crowd.

Marchers then poured onto the street and chanted non-stop down Robson St, Burrard St, and onto Sunset Beach. Upon arrival they were greeted with the sight directly in front of them of 100ft banner as it began to be unfurled from the Burrard St. Bridge, finally stretching 2/3 of the way down to the water: “US/UK Out of Iraq! Canada Out of Afghanistan!”

Speakers closed the rally, including Michael Van Fleet, Aboriginal Liason with the Kwantlen Students Association and Nicole Burton, Coordinator of the MAWO Canada Out! Campaign. MAWO members Max and Janine, then read a resolution against war and occupation, which was passed by cheers and chants from the crowd.

The words of the MC’s Alison and Shakeel brought it to a close “We are standing here in Vancouver, but we are not standing here alone – we are a small part of something much larger. Across the world people are marching today, and in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, and Haiti, people are fighting on the front lines of this struggle against war, for humanity and the possibility of a better world.”

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Ivan Drury ]

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"There are a lot of people here who are wondering, where are the Democrats?" said Tom Andrews, a former Democratic House member from Maine who's now the national director of Win Without War, one of several groups that are organizing three days of protests against the war in Washington starting Saturday.

"The Democratic Party has an identity crisis on this issue. We need voices. We need leadership," Andrews said. "But fear is driving them."

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As we head into the rally, I run into Susan, a social worker from the New York area, and ask her to stop so I can copy down her sign. Its front says: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" The back reads: "What if they had a hurricane and nobody came because... They were all at War!!"

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"After receiving 6 month deployments to Afghanistan,Reserve CF members have been quietly informed that their rotation will be for only 3 months."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article314977.ece

An Iraqi judge yesterday issued arrest warrants for two British soldiers, presumed to be SAS men, whose detention by Iraqi police and subsequent rescue by British forces in Basra last week has thrown an unprecedented spotlight on Britain's role in Iraq.

Early yesterday a flurry of rockets was fired at buildings occupied by British troops, but police said the only injuries were suffered by an Iraqi family in a house hit by one missile. Tensions aroused by last week's clashes remain high, with Basra's governor refusing to co-operate with British forces until the local authorities receive an apology and compensation for the damage caused when troops stormed the al-Jamiat police station on Monday.

The arrest warrants issued by Judge Raghib al-Mudhafar, chief of the Basra anti-terrorism court, have "no legal basis", according to British spokesmen, because of the agreement giving British forces legal immunity. "We have a legal obligation to investigate the allega- tions ourselves," said a Ministry of Defence official. "That is being done as we speak. We will continue to work with the Iraqis on the inquiry which the Iraqi government has begun."

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Originally posted by Webgear:
outlandist

"After receiving 6 month deployments to Afghanistan,Reserve CF members have been quietly informed that their rotation will be for only 3 months."

Do you have a link for this information?

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No,sorry. I read this in an article regarding a quiet effort by MOD to reduce expenditures on the Afghanistan mission. It mentioned the dissatisfaction of Reserve members who had put personal lives and careers on hold for 6 months who were informed their deployment would be reduced to 3 months. I assume they would also lose that 3 months income,including the danger pay and tax exempt status of that income.

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Originally posted by outlandist:

No,sorry. I read this in an article regarding a quiet effort by MOD to reduce expenditures on the Afghanistan mission. It mentioned the dissatisfaction of Reserve members who had put personal lives and careers on hold for 6 months who were informed their deployment would be reduced to 3 months. I assume they would also lose that 3 months income,including the danger pay and tax exempt status of that income.

I can't find where I read this.In future, I will bookmark interesting comment for future reference.

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