This thread is for people to share their negative experiences with porn, and to talk about ways we can stop it from hurting us in the future.

Personally, I have found that with men who are mean to women, porn helps reinforce their worldview that women should be sexually available at all times, and all women should look and act like porn women. My ex-husband had porn all over his computer, with naked women in sexual poses being the backdrop to pretty much every window he opened. He also treated me like crap, calling me names, expecting sex on demand, expecting me to be open to any kind of degrading or painful sex he wanted, etc. I don't necessarily think that porn MADE him that way, but I do think his heavy consumption of porn really reinforced his attitude toward women as commodities, women as his personal sexual gratification tools, women as objects.

As a result, a whole industry that I used to think of as benign and sexually titillating has become disgusting and sickening to me.

I used to think of mere pictures of naked women in sexual poses as "light" porn and pictures of men and women in the actual act of intercourse to be "hard" porn. But I see it differently now. I think just the plain, naked pictures of heavily made up women staring sexually at the camera for the mere whacking enjoyment of men is just as "hardcore" as the intercourse scenes, because at least in the intercourse scenes, we are enjoying watching a man and a woman, both naked, both engrossed in what they're doing with each other (as long as the intercourse is done in a way that would generally turn both men AND women on rather than just men). But pictures of naked women are different. It's all about a woman being vulnerable to an unseen viewer at any time the male viewer chooses. It's about the woman being sexually available all the time, about the male viewer being able to own her naked body and use it in any way he wishes in order to be sexually serviced.

Well sure if the girl next door happens to be silicone enhanced and air brushed and regularly sits or lies in positions that aren't the normal behaviour of anyone I know.

All the emphasis on female availability IS having an impact on the youth as well.

Now girls are expected to preform oral sex on their boyfriends and it isnt even considered sex.

Apparently Billy wasnt alone in his belief.

There is also sharing of girlfriends and other wonderful things that I don't remember being part of dating when I was young.

As a kid, I found my dad's stash and was grotesquely curious and appalled at the same time. I wondered what it meant about my dad that he had this stuff, and it wasn't until these last few years that I started to make the connection between his use of the porn and the arguments I'd overhear late at night...

The guy I dated before the guy I'm with now was a bit creepy about it. He'd swear up and down to be a feminist, but then would snicker and giggle at the porn he saw on the net, the freaky, ugly pictures he'd get emailed to him from friends (gags, mostly: photoshopped images of women to make them "funny"). He pressured me often to do things I didn't want to do, and made me feel guilty about being 'boring' or 'prudish' in the bedroom or about not wanting to have sex 'often enough'--"everyone else does stuff like this all the time", was generally the gist of his argument. He's the same guy who told me that I should go to the gym more often and wear different clothes, because it was my responsibility to look good when I was with him...

I've been lucky in that the only Playboy or Penthouse magazines I ever found were my grandfather's, not my father's. If my father had had them and left them where I could find them, I think I would have been really freaked out. The generational remove was a blessing.

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When I was little, a pedophile showed me pornographic pictures and told me that it was beautiful and that it was how I was going to look someday. He used it as a precursor to molesting me.

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I like that!

here's one for you:

My previous BF's bs might not have worked on me quite as well as it did, perhaps, if I weren't already somehow conditioned to think of myself in relation to the spread-legged big-boobed, shiny gymnasts in those magazines. And if sex hadn't been so shameful and out of my control and scary (because believe me, the thought of being or doing that terrified me) right from the get-go.

edited to add: (((((everyone)))))

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

Oldgoat, I tried to make sure that it wasn't just women welcome to share their stories, by not specifying a gender when it comes to stories or opinions. Your story is more than welcome, and I'm glad you shared it.

Note how oral sex places all the performance demands on women and none on the man - one cannot receive oral sex poorly - one can only give it poorly. Theoretically a guy can complain about oral sex the same way a bigshot customer can complain about the food at the restaurant sending it back three or four times until the waiter/waitress gets it right.

The girl next door issue is so that a man can fantasize about women that would otherwise not give him the time of day. The average office worker, librarian, neighbour across the hall would not give the guy the time of day. However, it does not feature "trailer trash" (low income people or minorities) because these women are considered more assessable and a lower commodity.

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when a kid finds the stuff and looks at it and doesn't know very much about sex at all yet, these images and scenarios become the foundational knowledge about sexuality.

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That is the beginning of my porn story. A friend and I found a really explicit magazine when I was about seven in the forest behind my house. We were so curious we poured over the photos of huge breasted women acrobatically splayed all over the pages. The only images of men were of penises, I'm not even sure I knew what they were. That was the first image I had of sex. After 23 years I still remember every one of those photos. I didn't have anyone to ask about what I had seen. It wasn't til a couple of years later that I learned this had something to do with making babies, and I decided then that I'd never have kids.

So moving onto adolescence I tried to relate those women in those pages to me, my life, and my sexuality. Not a simple undertaking.

In highschool there were two guys who singled me out and began to whisper disgusting, violent, sexual comments in my ear. "I want to slice your nipples off with a hot knife" is the one that really sticks out. I wonder if this could be considered a natural progression for boys? I wonder if they thought all of those comments up on their own or if at thirteen they were flipping through some magazines? I wonder if those boys have any idea today, as men, what effect those comments had on me? I stopped wanting to go to school (surprise) I began to think of sex as dirty and bad (suprise) and I wanted to know why these guys were picking on me. I changed the way I dressed, I changed the places I hung out, I changed the way I acted, but they still found me. If a boy asked me out I ran the other way. I was thirteen. I was angry.

I think that my biggest shock was not looking through those naked cartoon books where you see a drum with a pillow on it and a guy uttering "Let's make beautiful music together" but "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" when you had the choice of seeing yourself as the enemy or vacatious window dressing. Until those women came on the scene you could pretend you were an equal - one of them. It was the presence of the female slot machines that made you realize that it was an all male club.

That nurse with the orange lipstick was too much like teachers I hated for me to identify with her. It was the students against the evil teacher until that point.

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Actually, if you think of it porn reflects what girls and boys were taught. Girls were taught that they were nothing without a man and that they were to devote their lives to making their man happy. Men were taught that women were a sideline and real life took place elsewhere.

Neither the prostitute nor the madonna will challanged the man's "rightful" place at the top of the totem pole - and neither are competition in the job market or any place else.

Ever notice the attempts to present women in suits as Nazis and women in sports as being masculine?

I was sheltered somewhat, my mother was a nurse and thus clinically factual about anatomy and procreation, but there was a very strong undercurrent of disgust and loathing beneath it. She is the daughter and sister of preachers, and her grandmother was once beaten because she waited a few minutes after taking a bath before getting dressed. I really have a wonderful family, don't get me wrong, but wonderful isn't perfect.

As children, those of us in the neighborhood would find pornography discarded in roadside ditches. Much of it was simply repulsive, and I never ever grew to like domination, torture, rape, humiliation, or "enhanced" sexual characteristics. But the remainder was compelling, and the pull was stronger because it was so far removed from my life, nevermind the lure of the forbidden, making sex something of a "holy grail". Pornography is an addiction, and it tends to reinforce its own influence. In my case, my criteria for physical attractiveness are much stricter than I am at all comfortable with. I count myself very fortunate not to have picked up coercive or aggressive sexual habits.

But that, too, has its downside. What I found repulsive then has influenced what I find abhorrent today. I've seen the violence, degradation and objectification of women depicted in pornography brought to life, enacted by "normal" men upon women. My closest female friend and I had running arguments over whether men or women were more destructive. I still think that men are worse. I view other males with distrust, and this has been reinforced and expanded to the point that I can barely stand to have my hair cut "normally", or wear a suit, because I don't want to ever be seen as a symbol of so much that I find evil. While I think this is better than becoming evil, perhaps, it's definitely not very healthy.

It is so frustrating to be surrounded by wonderful, beautiful people, but to not be able to find them sexually appealing because they don't meet some ridiculous set of unrealistic requirements, to the point that I have seriously considered trying to ruin my eyesight. Blindness is not a gift, and it's perfectly ridiculous to be in a position to see it as such. I was agahst to read of a blind boy who worked out a system of hand signals to let him know if a girl he was talking to was unattractive. "Just because I'm blind doesn't mean I don't have standards." Appearance, physical attractiveness, has so very little to do with what makes a person truly beautiful.

Pornography teaches, even if subtly, that appearance, sex, and conquest are of paramount importance. I can't and won't agree that pornography is the cause of these behaviors. But it is at least a poster child for them.

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Daoine ]

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My closest female friend and I had running arguments over whether men or women were more destructive. I still think that men are worse.

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I think men are worse because they're given more opportunities to be destructive. I don't believe - don't want to believe - that it's innate.

Have you tried looking at erotic pictures of women who don't look like the typical silicone-enhanced porn star, or reading stories that describe those women in an erotic way?

People we love are always beautiful, and yet often, when we first meet them, we don't see them that way. We're drawn to one or two things we find compelling - the sway of hips, a particular sparkle in the eyes, a way of walking, an energy, a vibe. We pick people we find basically pleasant-looking, and the rest follows. Or can.

It's pretty rare to be sexually attracted to a person the first time you see him/her, I think. I mean, it happens, but the people who turn you on at first sight are a tiny subset of the people who can turn you on. Or I hope so.

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

One part incest (porn is a good warmup)
One part drugs

Stir.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: disobedient ]

My own negative experiences with porn don't compare. They involve mostly developing insecurities, reinforcing unhealthy views of sex and relationships, and emotional and sexual confusion and pain.

I agree with Daoine in that I don't think porn is the source of this ugliness. However much of it is a "socially acceptable" reinforcment of it.

Daoine - I haven't heard your name before. Your post makes me think you might be interested in an article we had discussed a while back...

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/pornography&masculinity.htm

It sounds as though you might be struggling with some of the same things Jensen is. Personally, I found the article really enlightening.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: rosebuds ]

Edited to specify that the boycott would be limited to the stores selling this regular, mainstream garbagey porn.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

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Originally posted by Trisha:
In the early 1050's, the girl was always to blame.

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"Obviously a typo, but in all honesty, were the social attitudes any better?"
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I'm afraid you'll have to ask Ratzinger ... er Pope "Eggs" Benedict.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
If you have never had any negative experiences with porn, screw off and start your own thread.

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What about sympathizers? I have not personally experienced some of the terrible things others have, but I do have a lot of concern about the effect that porn has on society...

I re-read this thread earlier and it's amazing how my feelings have changed, the further away from my bad experiences I have gotten. Now, although I'm not uncritical of porn, I feel a lot more like I felt about it before my marriage. Probably because porn is no longer in a position to hurt me, and I am again in the position where I can choose to consume it or not, and if I do choose to consume it, I can choose only the stuff I like. And I no longer have a partner (nor recent stinging memories of a partner) who buys into the degradation of women from it.

So, I feel somewhat differently now. I guess overall, I feel that as an adult, it's up to me to stay out of situations with men who use porn as a tool of degradation for both the women in the porn and the women around them. (And yes, I know it's not always possible for women to leave men who degrade them in this way if the relationship is abusive in other ways.) But I also know that two different men who look at the same image can react very differently.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
And how about the explosion of penis spam? Sure people, men and women, have always had feelings of inadequacy, but couldn't the outsized members in porn mags and videos have something to do with the penis expansion market?

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[ 20 April 2005: Message edited by: verbatim ]

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I'm not sure what my position on porn would be if that hadn't happened. I think that it is often used by pedophiles as a tool and that bothers me greatly.

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I never thought of that. And I'm very sorry that happened to those in the thread that shared that difficult experience.

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the prevalence of child sexual abuse never ceases to amaze me. I don't know if it's because it is so alien to me, or that I don't want to believe it is so common. But I feel for all of you. And it's a testament to your strength that you are able to deal with it in such a forthright manner.

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I agree.

I have never viewed pornography beyond what's popped up on my internet or what's been on the front cover at 7-11 stores so I don't have vast experience with it by any stretch. I never used to pay attention to pornography at all. I'd just sort of turn my head if I was in the store and the magazines were too visible and if someone asked me I'd say it was wrong but beyond that it got little attention from me.

A couple of weeks ago though we were in a convenience store and I went to go and get something that I had forgotten. I returned to the cash register and rather than interrupt my husband I waited for a natural opportunity to interject in the conversation. I am not sure whether or not the cashier thought I was the next person in line or recognized that we were a couple. He asked my husband whether or not he would like cigarettes or a lottery ticket or a magazine pointing to an array of porn magazines behind the counter. My husband answered no straightforwardly and pushed his credit card forward on the counter to prompt the purchase to proceed. I found that my eyes fixed on the magazine more than they had previously and I noticed how strikingly thin and beautiful the person was on the cover. Comparative analysis filtered through my mind then and throughout the evening. My long-stable eating disorder has been rocky the last month and I spent most of the evening trying to do a lot of self-talk with myself about making good decisions for my health and my eating.

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Originally posted by FabFabian:
How else do you explain why a guy would suggest ejaculating on your face and thinking that you would seriously enjoy it.

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[ 21 April 2005: Message edited by: verbatim ]

I think in future relationships (and hopefully there will be some ) I would prefer to take a softer line, but be more rigorous about discussions of fantasy vs reality, coercion vs consent, and the far-reaching effects of chauvanism etc.

I also think it's really important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Speaking from my position of anonymity (hi skdadl, hope I'm not embarassing you Oh and HI MOM) I can say I've done most of what goes on in mainstream porn and enjoyed it, although I admit that I felt a little pressured the first time with some things, with bfs who *really* wanted to act out their little fantasies fuelled by porn.

But I don't think participating in someone's sexual fantasy has to mean objectification, or subjugation, or coercion. And even if it does, it doesn't mean that the act itself cannot be enjoyed *ever* with *any partner*. Even if the person got the idea for a particular act from porn.

I found my uncles stash when i was young but didnt do anything about it(same as when I found my dads loaded revolver at age 8) but porn was used in my sexual abuse when i was in my teens.

I am fond of porn, personally, but while I think it can be damaging as described, I think it is also something that reflects societies attitudes towards women.

So is the problem porn (as the thing in itself) or is it how porn is manufactured and put to use as a commodity.

Also, I have gone out with women who have taken great pride in their ability to ejaculate I personally do not find getting ejaculate on me degrading. Nor do I think coming on any part of the body, including the face, is degrading, necessarily. Jeeze.

Its messy, but what the hell, its sex, and sex is messy,and weird sometimes.

What are u supposed to do? Not come in them and not come on them? A lot of these things are read symbolically. The way some people "read" these things, and the way they are represented seems to be the issue.

For my part, porn was most damaging to me because my mother used it as a means of not talking about sex issues ever, ever. Minor in comparison to some of the stories recorded here, but nonetheless indicative of my ratehr cold relationship with my mother.

[ 21 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I think it also might be appropriate to invert the question as well and ask, how has the reigning patriarchal ideology damaged porn.

I am fond of porn, personally, but while I think it can be damaging as described, I think it is also something that reflects societies attitudes towards women.

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Good points, Cueball.

What if it's porn that doesn't involve women at all, though? Is there still a "patriarchy" issue there? Personally, as long as it's two consenting adults, I have no problem with gay male porn. If you don't like it, don't look at it.

Maybe we should have a thread, "How has porn positively affected you?"

Magoo seems to be our resident Devil's Advocate. Maybe he'd be interested in that discussion...

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edited for spelling and clarity

[ 21 April 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

That might not be so uncommon a viewpoint - and I would have to place the blame for that on porn...not on your mother and not on sex.

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Magoo seems to be our resident Devil's Advocate. Maybe he'd be interested in that discussion...

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As for porn, I haven't had any negative experiences beyond boredom. Nothing but nothing compares or even comes close to real human intimacy. I actually find it quite amazing just how huge the porn/sex industry is in North America (and elsewhere). My few encounters with it have moved rapidly (within minutes) from mild titillation to boredom.

That being said, different strokes for different folks. I have difficulty with the idea that living out the fantasies of our partners is a necessarily negative experience, and would suggest that the negativity in such an experience has more to do with the relationship as a whole than the existence of porn. I have little doubt that there are very healthy sexual relationships out there that have porn as a component, as well as the undeniably unhealthy relationships described above.

Similarly for all the adults who have suffered negatively from others' porn-fuelled ignorant and selfish behaviour.

I see how fortunate I've been in having extremly limited exposure to either porn or porn-consumers.

I am wondering, with respect to porn, how much of the awful behaviour and attitudes of porn consumers is cause, and how much is effect.

Someone with an innately degrading and selfish attitude to sex will seek out that type of material, yet that material will re-inforce and form an even more selfish and degrading attitude. Someone who sees that sort of thing and their reaction is "Yech!" is not likely to want to view more of that material.

Like I'm thinking it is the same phenomenon as mental sports training. I've read sports psych books that talk about how you can mentally visualize yourself doing your sport (tennis backswings, various gymnastics moves, whatever) even while you are injured. Sports psychs have apparently found that injured athletes who do this visualization-training end up way ahead training-wise versus injured athletes who don't do the visualization thing, once everyone gets back on their feet again.

Can't this be extrapolated to degrading porn? If you visualize degrading porn stuff over and over again, doesn't it make you better able to degrade people during sex vs. people who don't spend time viewing degrading porn?

Once a person gets sucked into a degrading cycle of porn, acting out, more porn, more acting out---doesn't it just get worse and worse? One needs ever more wild stuff to give you the same thrill?

It's hard to discuss racism when one person is thinking of the assumption that Asians are good at math and the other is thinking of black men dragged behind a truck by 5 hillbillies.

Similarly, it's hard to really get anywhere discussing porn when you could mean a woman in a leather mask with a dozen needles through her nipples, plasticized strippers appearing in formulaic straight-to-DVD drek like "Big Bust Babes #42", or you could mean a 40-something couple who like to take pics of themselves, fuzz out the faces, and post them on the 'net.

I can't say I'm a big proponent of the multi-billion dollar a year industry, or the greasy frat boys who run it, but when someone's in it for the fun and not the billions I find it harder to criticize them. Problem is — if you consider it a problem — mom & pop porn is just as likely to feature "icky" things as the commercial stuff.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:
I'm not sure I understand, Cueball - are you saying that for your mother, all sex is porn?

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No. I am saying that my mother who is by the way well known to some here as a feminist was dealing with a number of WASP sexual hang-ups. As an 'intellectual liberal' she realized that she had this horny 13 year old who needed an education, but as an 'emotional protestant' she could not bring her self to actually discuss sex. This cunudrum she solved by giving me Penthouse and Playboy and that was the end of the issue... for her.

For me it meant that I lived in a weird world were I was taught certain kinds of things about how women should be tough and respectable as persons but coupled that to a decidely traditional mainstream fetishization of female sexual archtypes.

Summary:I was raised to live in the new society, but living my life in the old one.

I was looking for tough but traditionally sexy. As opposed to tradionally sexy by being demure. Needless to say such combinations of persons are rare, given that so many women either adopt traditional role models, or divorce themselves entirely from them.

Fortunately someone invented punk rock, wherein sexual archtypes were a thing of grotesque play.

Actually, I think it is very likely that one of the themes of punk rock style may be a direct derivative of a generation trying to define new feminist ideals of empowerment within the framework of the sexual norms relentlesslyimputed to people through the images manipulated by capitalism to sell beauty products, while at the same time rebelling against it in the context of the post 60's sexual revolution.

See the problem is that I was taught to like the trim of a mini-skirt. The sexual connectivity to this image is indelibly marked in my sexual desires by constant assimilation of the visual imagery I have been exposed to. I felt guilty about that for a long time. Now I dont. Punk allowed for a perversion of tradional sexual styles, wherein those hard-wired fromulaic sexual responses found some kind of satisfaction while at the same time attacking the absurd aspects of mainstream fashion industry and corporate capitalism.

Or so I like to tell myself. Tee hee.

Do I feel damaged? Perhaps I am. But can I spend the rest of my life feeling guilty because I have been hard wired to immediatly identify mini-skirts with sex?

[ 21 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Gosh, not me. I saw Carmen Electra's nipples in a Playboy magazine once and promptly went out and sexually assaulted the first woman I saw. It was nearly 3 weeks before I could stop calling women "bitches". Never again.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
If anyone's really interested in discussing porn, wouldn't a working definition be a good idea?

Do amateur smut sites have some obligation to women, or to humankind, to NOT live out their personal fantasies in that way, for fear that it might make some jackass start hounding his wife for a three-way?

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Yes a defnition would be nice. What's your's Mr Magoo?

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You should be ashamed of yourself for making this a joke. Would you think it was funny if your wife were assaulted by a man who had been using Playboy or Penthouse or the SI Swimsuit issue? Would it still be funny then?

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Why do people always talk about "using" these magazines. People read or look at magazines. There is this weird kind of language that seems to come up in these conversations that seems to be about distancing. Also, "using" is a term more commonly applied to drug use.

[ 22 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

I'll tell you though, Bacchus made a very good point...the ubiquitous sexualisation of teenagers has got to stop. Not so much because the introduction of sex at that age is deliterious or anyting, but because the commodification of teenage sexuality for profit is repugnant.

I'm so sick of seeing 12-year old mid-riffs and pre-pubescent boobies on television.

Corporate America, for all its lip-service to "family values" doesn't even come close to portraying teenage sexuality frankly and unhypocritically. Instead, they give us the innapropriate sexualisation of children.

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Alex: And the first thing that flashed into my gulliver was that I'd like to have her right down there on the floor with the old in-out, real savage.

last line:
I was cured, all right! - Alex, A Clockwork Orange

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Kids in this country are free to make all kinds of moral choices in their formative years, but when it comes to our appalling rates of child poverty in North America, I think the statistics speak volumes about whose economic freedom it's really all about.

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I'm calling a "cease and decease" to your constant references to child poverty. I'm sure you mean well, Fidel, but bringing up child poverty over and over again doesn't make kids any less poor.

What parents in North America have control over is their own children, and, as a gay man with no children, it behooves me to say:

...Man, you het parents are screwing up your children's lives, but good. Really, I sometimes find this a bit of a joke when three ill-mannered, mouthy adolescents pass me in the street. These children are not being brought up with any sense of boundaries, or respect for any kind of experience or wisdom, or any acknowledgment of who they are and their place in society.

No, on the contrary, I get the impression that most parents today are just simply finding ways to entertain their children; renting them videos, shoving food into their faces, excusing them completely from any household chore, etc. etc.

In any case, I find it galling that I, as a gay man, might be considered an unfit parent, when parental failures are occurring all around me.

....oh, and that is how porn has affected me negatively.

[ 22 April 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

But, Fidel, if I insulted you or hurt your feelings, I apologise.

[ 22 April 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

But I do believe that kids will become products of their environment. I believe Marx's 'life chances' was an accurate assessment. The porn, the poverty, the lack of positive stimulus in general, they all end up being parts of the total experience and outcome. I think I read somewhere that there's a link between pornography and sexual deviancy, esp among pedophiles. Porn is a phase that pubescant boys go thru, like I did. I think it's normal to move on to other interests at some point.

[ 22 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

It's funny, the one kid in our old neighborhood who I knew kept a stash of porno mags was caught peeping thru hotel windows later in life. And then he latches on with a real swell looker not too many years after that incident. I feel sorry for her though.

[ 22 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
OTOH, it's OKay for women to do these things (DP, TP, BDSM) and some would be willing to be photographed doing it, all becuase some women want the chance to do some really rough sex to please their men.

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Not all sex acts performed by women are done to please their men, though this may be surprising to you.

Pretending I don’t like it rough is bad for my self-image -- I've always been a bad girl, especially when it comes to sex, so don't expect me to take it soft and gentle when I really want it rough

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Recently someone I'd brought home for the first time threw me off.

"I like it nice and gentle," he said.

I felt like saying, "Do I look like a nice, gentle girl?" Instead, I said something to the effect of "Uh, OK."

I understood that he'd put out a need and that I should respect his request. I also honestly didn't know how to be any nicer or gentler.

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Originally posted by Suzette:
The images of women I see in pornography -- air-brushed; enormous breasts; completely free of cellulite, body hair, blemishes; etc -- make me feel like a complete dog. Oh, and it kind of gives me the idea that perhaps quite a number of the men I encounter in my day-to-day life are assessing me as worth sticking their dick into or not. I guess you'd call that a negative.

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Thank you, Suzette. Being over 50, my perspective on how porn impacts younger women is just from memory, so it's good to hear some one say "You're damn right it hurts>"

Even if a person totally dismisses all the scientific evidence that pornography does indeed incline men to be more accepting of rape and violence towards women, the simple degradation of being leered at, whistled at, gestured at, in public places is enough to significantly harm a woman's quality of life.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Why do people always talk about "using" these magazines. People read or look at magazines. There is this weird kind of language that seems to come up in these conversations that seems to be about distancing. Also, "using" is a term more commonly applied to drug use.

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Please, Cueball, tell me this is an attempt at humour. Please.

Do you think I am so naive that you can suggest to me that men actually "read" men's magazines? Perhaps you would like to try telling me that centrefolds are one of the materials shown to people in standard literacy tests to see how well they can read a picture of a naked, spread-eagled woman's body.

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I know women down south in Vancouver who are environmentalists and opposed to the use of single occupant vehicles, but who have made the choice to drive to work because they cannot stand the harassment they get from porn consuming men on public buses and the Skytrain.

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Why do you assume these men are porn consuming? Or more particularly, why do you assume that it is the porn consumption that causes this behaviour?

The problem is real, however, linking it to strictly to porn seems unlikely. I would suggest that public behaviour needs to be confronted directly.

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Do you think I am so naive that you can suggest to me that men actually "read" men's magazines? Perhaps you would like to try telling me that centrefolds are one of the materials shown to people in standard literacy tests to see how well they can read a picture of a naked, spread-eagled woman's body.

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Please do me the courtesy of reading what it is that I wrote, as opposed to looking at it and "seeing" what you want to see. The quote was:

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People read or look at magazines.

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Obviously, I am aware of the function of porn magazines. There doesn't seem to much point in continuing this discussion when you seem unable to confront what is actually being said.

And, actually a number of magazines go to great length to provide entertaining written content, which is not all pornogrphic. This is probably because even if you are completely consumed with looking at the world through the prism of what appears to be a kind oversexed repression, not everyone else is, and pictures of naked women gets boring.

Frankly, the women in Playboy and Penthouse leave me cold, very much because the I find the hi-gloss faux-women that Suzette describes a-sexual.

quote:

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Not all sex acts performed by women are done to please their men, though this may be surprising to you. I actually find the presumption that women only want gentle vanilla nicey nicey and men are generally drooling monsters to be quite offensive. Sexuality is unique to individuals, and if they are equal adults in consenting relationships, they often explore a lot of things.

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I think that the whole idea that women only want what you describe as "gentle vanilla nicey nicey" sex is really deeply ingrained in that whole concept of dividing women up into "good girls" and "bad girls".

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The images of women I see in pornography -- air-brushed; enormous breasts; completely free of cellulite, body hair, blemishes....perhaps quite a number of the men I encounter in my day-to-day life are assessing me as worth sticking their d--k into or not. I guess you'd call that a negative.

---

I have to say that when I see the packaged covers of the magazines with strikingly beautiful women on the outside who reflect perfection it adds to any insecurities I have.
I don't, however, take it to the next level and think strange men on the street are evaluating me in comparison to that image. They have wives and girlfriends that I'm sure they are thinking of instead.

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Even if a person totally dismisses all the scientific evidence that pornography does indeed incline men to be more accepting of rape and violence towards women, the simple degradation of being leered at, whistled at, gestured at, in public places is enough to significantly harm a woman's quality of life.
I know women down south in Vancouver who are environmentalists and opposed to the use of single occupant vehicles, but who have made the choice to drive to work because they cannot stand the harassment they get from porn consuming men on public buses and the Skytrain.

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I'm not familiar with the literature but I can see how it makes women easier to objectify. I do think though that some of those behaviours pre-dated pornography.

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I will ask you this: Are there any cirumstance in which someone could photograph, film or write about sex acts that would not fit within your definition of pornographic opression?

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[ 24 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Then what is it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I will ask you this: Are there any cirumstance in which someone could photograph, film or write about sex acts that would not fit within your definition of pornographic opression?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hailey:
I am not MD so I can't answer for her but I would hope anyone would think that married people can do whatever they want.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

In practice there is no such material available in the consumer marketplace today.

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
"whatever they want"? Meaning anything at all, including mysognistic stuff, like forcing the woman to be constantly available, expecting her to strive for bodily perfection, dressing in erotic fashions that make her a whore, requiring her to adopt degrading postures so that she can be photographed, and the photographs shared with other men, swinging with other married couples. Where does it end, how far can it go before marriage is no longer an excuse big enough to cover what's being done.

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You keep using that word 'force.'

Is there no room in your philosophy for the notion that there are men-- even some who like porn-- that actually communicate with their spouses and are concerned about their feelings?

edited to add: the moral of the story for me is that hitch-hiking at night was incredibly dangerous for teenagers; probably still is. If teens *have* to hitch a ride, then always travel in pairs, *never* alone. Better yet, give your kids a lift when they need to go somewhere, if there's no public transit.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

Oh. THAT kind of porn.

quote:

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"whatever they want"?

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Notice the word "they"? Not "he", but "they".

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dressing in erotic fashions that make her a whore

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I always thought that having sex for money was what made you a whore.

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"whatever they want"? Meaning anything at all, including mysognistic stuff, like forcing the woman to be constantly available, expecting her to strive for bodily perfection, dressing in erotic fashions that make her a whore, requiring her to adopt degrading postures so that she can be photographed, and the photographs shared with other men, swinging with other married couples. Where does it end, how far can it go before marriage is no longer an excuse big enough to cover what's being done.

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You are framing sexuality as a male-led experience and while it can be there are a number of women who enjoying having intercourse and sexual expression that may not be your cup of tea.

And YES, MD, whatever they want. If people within their relationship conclude that they want to do quite a range of sexual acts that's just not my concern.

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like forcing the woman to be constantly available

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Again, I said *they* want..that would imply both people...

and no loving relationship is inclusive of force...

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dressing in erotic fashions that make her a whore

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I think you'll find that lingerie is more of a female interest than a male. I'm fairly sure if they did a study they'd find that most men would simply prefer nudity.

I also don't think that looking beautiful or erotic when you go to bed with your husband would ever make you a whore. If someone thinks you are a whore you are really in bed with the wrong person.

I am genuinely disturbed that you wrote that. It actually makes me feel just sick.

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requiring her to adopt degrading postures so that she can be photographed

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Again I said what THEY want and your response is thematic of women being required to do things. I don't think anyone should ever be required to do something under duress and certainly nobody should be breaking out a camera if that's not of mutual interest.

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and the photographs shared with other men,

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I said they..remember?..what they want...that would be two people....

I grew up in a community that lots of people here envision as being anti-sex. I can honestly tell you this is the most anti-sex information that I've heard in the duration of my life.

I waited a long time for it to be the right time in my life to be able to have sex. I happen to enjoy sex, can't think of a better way to spend my time.

I also am curious. I apparently don't have the cognitive capacity to consent to sexual relations with my husband or my capacity to consent is limited to certain sexual activities. As soon as it involves wearing something pretty it gets blurry! I'm wondering if someone could share the list of sexual activities that I and other women are allowed to consent in before needing community input? And if we decide to expand from that list is there someone we should email for permission? I'm missing an important part of the protocol for getting permission. I always thought it was between my husband and I!

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

MD seems to utterly discount the idea of an equal, caring, loving relationship that includes sexual exploration and sexual activity outside a very narrow range of practices. MD also seems to imply that women are simply incapable of adult decisions, desires and consent. I find that concept quite sexist and disturbing, and I reject it utterly. I have no idea what would lead MD to these offensive opinions.

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I know women down south in Vancouver who are environmentalists and opposed to the use of single occupant vehicles, but who have made the choice to drive to work because they cannot stand the harassment they get from porn consuming men on public buses and the Skytrain.

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Wait. Lemme guess. After a man leers at them they have a short little Porn Usage questionnaire for them to fill out.

ed'd to remove the offensive part, and to keep this thread from popping up when someone googles sp*nking.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]

Any attempts to even suggest a world where women might like something she, personally, doesn't are dismissed in favour of imaginary scenarios wherein loving wives are being forced into "whore" clothing by cruel husbands, drunk on PornLust and egged on by Larry Flynt and the porn industry.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:
Magoo:
That was totally uncalled for and ultimately unhelpful.
Why does it upset you so much that someone is upset by the negative effects of porn?

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I agree but MD more or less started it by calling Magoo a liar and psychologizing his testimony.

Here in the other now aging thread on this topic MD said:

quote:

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Your arguments are cleverly constructed, trying to make everything sound a matter of opinion, even making up an imaginary male friend who likes it when his partners (are they men or women?) pinch his nipples. How would you even know, since men don't talk about their actual sexual experiences with each other, they only brag about their conquests, real or imagined.

It's so utterly dishonest. Mr Magoo has a male friend who (Magoo says) likes having his nipples pinched, so that must mean that some women actually do give informed consent to being bound, gagged, blindfolded and whipped with a riding crop or other equestrian implement, and then of course penetrated -- what? -- once?... twice?? ... three times???

What's your specialty Mr Magoo? Are you on the DP train, or do you hold our for full blast TP??? Which one of the female victim's bodily oriffices do you prefer? Do you and your buddies have a system for trading spots around so you can all get a taste of each?

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Perhaps everyone could refrain?

Although I do get a perverse kick from reading their pornographic imaginings at play.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

And I am totally against porn, so it has not influenced this gal's preferences, go figure!

Nor do I think he is whore for wearing such things.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: remind ]

In my own defence I would just say that I am extremely upset that just days after Andrea's passing we are being treated to a kind of post-modern or Third Wave view of pornography that I for one cannot accept.

quote:

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I apologize if I have improperly questioned Mr Magoo's intellectual honesty. Looking back that was inflammatory and rude.

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My apologies as well. I think I forgot what forum I'm in.

You do, however, seem eager to jump from the specific (your particular distaste for certain activities) to the general ("nobody could possibly want that!"). Surely you see the inherent dangers in this kind of assumption?

To me it seems a no-brainer that nobody would ever want to jam a piece of metal into their genitals. But they do. "Why on earth would they want that kind of pain?", I have to wonder. "Surely they're being pressured into it by their peer group or something?"

But my wonderment doesn't change the fact of their existence. And no matter how much I, personally, would avoid having a piece of metal jammed into my penis, that doesn't mean that others must either agree, or be "brainwashed". They simply like something I don't.

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

Why? Because of my experiences working with real women who have been victims of violence, including eroticized violence, in intimate relationships, whether married, common law, or just dating. No doubt that does raise my emotional blood pressure beyond where it should be. And yes it may be constricting my world view of what alternative possibilities there are, but I still believe that actual experience is not a thing to just ignore for theoretical reasons.

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I've followed this thread for a bit. And, I'm six-foot four. Actually, I'm three-foot six. Actually, it's impossible for you to know. My point being, your words below ....

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Why? Because of my experiences working with real women who have been victims of violence, including eroticized violence, in intimate relationships, whether married, common law, or just dating. No doubt that does raise my emotional blood pressure beyond where it should be. And yes it may be constricting my world view of what alternative possibilities there are, but I still believe that actual experience is not a thing to just ignore for theoretical reasons.

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.... might be true, and probably are true. If so, I respect your anger and your experiences, and the truth in what you say.

But for the record, I disagree from a theoretical perspective. Like others, I believe it is the deeper problems of individuals and society, that distorts our depictions of sexuality, and how these depictions subsequently impact us as individually and in society.

quote:

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In my own defence I would just say that I am extremely upset that just days after Andrea's passing we are being treated to a kind of post-modern or Third Wave view of pornography that I for one cannot accept.

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This makes it sound like people have been trashing Andrea Dworkin in the days following her death. When in fact, all they've been doing is expressing opinions that disagree with hers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Who is Suzie Bright?

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Porn to me is the production of graphic sex art, as opposed to erotica, which is not so graphic...a lot of the real problems [are about] the end use of the product.

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So we all agree now that porn is "used"? OK, there's a big grey area between porn and erotica; much is subjective. To me the distinction is a feeling. How to describe it? Erotica educates. Porn consumes. Porn is not a matter of degree of explicitness, not at all, not in the least.

Porn is like having a bag of Doritos and a Coke for lunch. Tasty at the time, but you feel like crap afterwards. Not to mention that you become less healthy and less desirable as a result of consuming it. Despite all that, for some funny reason you crave more of the crap.

On the other hand, erotica is like a nice organic meal that sits well in your stomach for hours afterward. The meal may have less flavor that dazzles the senses on first contact, but it takes time to develop appreciation for such finer things in life.

Another metaphor to describe the negative effects of porn: It's like drinking salt water. You start off thirsty - this is only human. But you choose the wrong drink. Instead of being quenched, you only become thirstier. You could substitute more addictive substances for the salt water image.

Porn sets minds down the wrong path, it promotes predatory, dehumanizing attitudes towards women. (Anyone got recent stats on trafficking of women for prostitution?) As porn becomes more mainstream, aided by easy internet access, we all lose, individually and collectively. Among the casualties are the quality of discourse about everything, not just sexuality.

Porn makes the world crass.

What antidotes are there to the negative effects of porn? I think we have to strive to cultivate the finer, subtler things that humans are capable of - music, poetry, literature (this doesn't include penthouse forum), etc.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: mimsy ]

quote:

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OK, there's a big grey area too, and much is subjective. Another metaphor to describe the negative effects of porn: It's like drinking salt water. You start off thirsty - this is only human. But you choose the wrong drink. Instead of being quenched, you only become thirstier. You could substitute more addictive substances for the salt water image.

---

I understand what you are saying and I really really appreciate the beautiful spirit of what you are saying but I dont buy it. I think this exactly becauae this grey area you describe is huge, and as varied as the number of indivduals on the planet. Your defintion is too subjective to be functional, if it is about feeling.

For instance, I know a woman who has a sexual fascination with food, and also plants in general. She makes up these phantasmagoric masturbation fantsies where she has sex with trees, more or less, which actively reach out their limbs and masturbate her. At least this is what she says.

Some people would find this gross and "poronographic" and emblematic of sick and neurotically inspired desires, others might see it as erotic. I think it fantastic personally. So no, I just see porn and erotica as mutually interchangable terms, and that one is just the polite form of the other.

And by "use" I meant in the commercial sense, in that any product has an end "use." I still think people read it or look at it.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: mimsy ]

quote:

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Originally posted by voice of the damned:
This makes it sound like people have been trashing Andrea Dworkin in the days following her death. When in fact, all they've been doing is expressing opinions that disagree with hers.

When Suzie Bright dies, will you stop expressing Dworkinite opinions for a few days, out of respect?

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I didn't say they were trashing Andrea Dworkin, just that they were ignoring some of her most important work at the same time they are eulogizing her. I think that's really tragic.

quote:

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Originally posted by thwap:
But for the record, I disagree from a theoretical perspective. Like others, I believe it is the deeper problems of individuals and society, that distorts our depictions of sexuality, and how these depictions subsequently impact us as individually and in society.

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So, you like the theoretical perspective while I like concrete personal experience. Well, there's a phrase that covers that:

"Pornography is the Theory, Rape is the Practice"

You may enjoy the theory, but I have witnessed the results of the practice.

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
I know about Suzie Bright, and I think she is barely 40, so I may well predecease her, making your question moot as well as insensitive.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I just avoid putting people down for what they like and dont like, and what they fantasize about...I think it is more important to let people know that you accept them for what they are, and they don't need anymore 'guilt' stuff

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My point is, it's not any particular sex act that makes something pornographic. Weird ain't necessarily bad. If the lady likes hugging wet mossy trees with all she's got, fine. But it could be depicted in an objectifying, pornographic way, or erotically, in a way that doesn't degrade. Porn degrades both the subject, most often women shown as sex objects, and its viewers, mostly men who dish out the money that in turn gives the porn world more power.

And I choose that definition because I think for instance in a film which was purely about sex I do not see how any of the subjects could be represented as anything but sex objects, even though it might not actually be specifically degrading. This would be true unless you believe that all sex, in order not to be degrading, must be emotionally contextualized in a 'loving relationship, and that people can not just be having sex in a movie.

Rather, I think of it is an form of expression which is put to bad use within the terms of patriarchy.

I don't think we disagree on the essentials just the semantic definition of porn and erotica.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

re:

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:

So, you like the theoretical perspective while I like concrete personal experience. Well, there's a phrase that covers that:

"Pornography is the Theory, Rape is the Practice"

You may enjoy the theory, but I have witnessed the results of the practice.

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Like you do with everyone else here, you missed most of my points. I shan't continue at this.

quote:

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Originally posted by mimsy:
Porn is like having a bag of Doritos and a Coke for lunch. Tasty at the time, but you feel like crap afterwards. Not to mention that you become less healthy and less desirable as a result of consuming it. Despite all that, for some funny reason you crave more of the crap.

On the other hand, erotica is like a nice organic meal that sits well in your stomach for hours afterward. The meal may have less flavor that dazzles the senses on first contact, but it takes time to develop appreciation for such finer things in life.

---

Oh my God! Get OVER yourself! All you are saying (in an incredibly snobbish manner) is "If I like it and approve of it, it's erotica. If someone I consider inferior to me likes it, it's porn."

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]

quote:

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Let me say once more though, that I respect the pain of the experiences that have produced your worldview.

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Now seems as good a time as any to mention that MD hasn't actually shared any of her own experiences or pain in this thread. Not that I'm asking for that, but the thread is entitled "How has porn negatively affected you?", not "How has porn negatively affected some friend-of-a-friend?"

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

I have to wonder how much of their language comes from their peer group or their siblings, not porn.com.

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...as well as TV, e.g. South Park.

[quote=Cartman]"Well, my dad says if you want to be a lesbian, you have to eat carpet."[/quote]

[quote=Kyle]"Dude! Don't call Jesus a pigf*cker!"[/quote]

And so on. At least as far as language goes.

Youth culture has become very misogynist as well, but I doubt that much of that comes from pr0n. I suspect, rather, that the omnipresent rap/hip-hop videos and music plays a role too. The whole "pimp" and "ho" lingo has really made a comeback as well.

EDIT: I should add, I guess, that ultimate responsibility for a lot of this stuff comes down to parents and pre-existing ideas about gender roles too. I'm not blaming rap music for this stuff...I just think it's a likely source for the specific references.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: Erstwhile ]

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Why does it always come down to the parents - where is society's role and responsibility in this?

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How are you defining "society" such that it's exclusive of the parents?

In other words, are you defining the parents as parents, and then "society" is everyone else (the bachelors, widows, childless couples, etc.)?

And when it comes to issues of child rearing, shouldn't it come down to the parents? If they want complete autonomy in raising their children (and I don't know many parents who like to be "told" how to parent by someone else) then don't these parents also take on complete responsibility at the same time?

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My point is, it's not any particular sex act that makes something pornographic.

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Actually, it is any particular sex act that makes something pornographic. Pornography, as a rule, is

quote:

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creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire

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quote:

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OK, there's a big grey area between porn and erotica; much is subjective. To me the distinction is a feeling. How to describe it? Erotica educates. Porn consumes. Porn is not a matter of degree of explicitness, not at all, not in the least.

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The distinction that has to be made, is mainstream capitalist pornography (such as most magazines in corner stores) and other pornography, like this (link is work safe). Mainstream capitalist pornography is the kind of stuff I think most of us in this thread are talking about, something like the Blow Bang series that Robert Jensen talks about, that has a purpose of socially controlling women and reinforcing the sexist status quo.

It is important to make this distinction because the demonization of pornography itself is unfair to pornographers such as 15 year old slash writing girls, or Heather Corinna, or Seska, who are just in it to make pornography; media that are sexually arousing. Pornographic media are not bad; the majority of mainstreat capitalist pornography, however, is vastly damaging and dehumanizing, as can be seen in this thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

How are you defining "society" such that it's exclusive of the parents?

-snip-

How, short of sanitizing the world, can "society" stop kids from viewing things that their parents apparently can't or won't?

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Nyeh. How did you read into my text that I was excluding the parents from "society"?

I'm not suggesting legislation, by the way, because parenting and sexuality are probably the hardest things to legislate, it's just looking for trouble. I'm thinking more in terms of the stuctures, opportunities and alternatives offered to kids, like increasing the availability of community programs, in arts, sports, etc. so that there's more out there for them, so that they have their space and so that it's respected and sanctioned by all of society - not just by small groups of anxious parents.

There is virtually no evidence that connects the consumption of pornography with violence or abuse. These claims have been discounted a number of times. Why then do people think the opposite?

What is interesting is that discussing pornography results in people relating these things rather than hiding them. So in this sense pornography is beneficial. It opens peoples minds and changes public debate although it is still a topic few people talk about.

The reason most likely is because pornography is a visual aid to masturbation. It is also an educational tool. In fact it probably inhibits sexual relations on a number of levels by setting absurd standards for both men and women.

SEXTV interviews pornstars and for my money they seem to be trying awful hard to make the case that the work is honourable. I think it is. Many of the production companies are now run by women apparently.

What is most striking is the relative progression of pornography over the years. You used to go into the local variety store and sneak a peek at Playboy or Penthouse in the old days and all you got was a flash of T&A. Over time there has been a gradual progression from the hairless torso to pubic hair to penises hovering flacidly near vaginas to erections and gynecological sites in full view, to today where you see people actually fucking in just about any grocery store that carries these old standard "girlie mags".

Is this a sign of the crumbling morality of Canadian civilization? I don't think so. But, as usual we have no porn industry of our own so we can wag our fingers at everyone else.

One of the psychological questions that needs to be asked is what does this progression signify socially? Are the baby-boomers just getting older and looking for greater visual stimulation to accomodate and assist the viagara and onslaught of male menopause?

On the other hand porn has been one of the big attractions of the internet - or at least the idea that the internet is without censorship.

I think sex is beautiful and pictures of it are beautiful when the people are having fun and are in a non-exploitive scenario. But most porn is not this type even if it is "legal". From my survey of it most of it is crude and gross and that is what its appeal is - to men at least - but not all men. I am often more shocked listening to weird things callers diecuss on Sue Johanssen's Sunday Night Sex show than the scripts of the porn I enjoy.

The thing about some of the "best" porn is that it is so ridiculous that it is funny. But there is still a woeful lack of imagination in the genre.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I predict a shit storm.

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Originally posted by Doug:
But nobody mentioned scheisse porn.

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The thing about some of the "best" porn is that it is so ridiculous that it is funny. But there is still a woeful lack of imagination in the genre.

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Originally posted by thwap:
MasterDebator,

Like you do with everyone else here, you missed most of my points. I shan't continue at this.

Let me say once more though, that I respect the pain of the experiences that have produced your worldview.

---

Perhaps I have missed the main point of what you were saying. However, I think yhou mised my major point in that last posint, which was the last part:

"We have a newstand here in Prince George, next to one of our Starbucks outlets, that provides an interesting clue to how pornography fits into our society. In that newstand, as you go towards the back, you're basically going towards the men's area. You're going past all the fashion and news and home reno and decoration and general sports magazines towards a pair of racks facing each other. On one side is the extreme sports material, hunting, guns, ammunition, weapons, martial arts, mercenary and military magazines. And on the rack facing it are the pornographic titles, the girlie magazines, many wrapped in plastic. What do you suppose this juxtaposition tells us about the men who buy pornography and their wider interests, inclinations, and proclivities? Do you think women have any legitimate cause to be nervous when they see a setup like that, or are they just being intolerant busybodies trying to ruin a guy's fun ... oh, ... and that of his consenting girlfriend/wife as well."

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Now seems as good a time as any to mention that MD hasn't actually shared any of her own experiences or pain in this thread. Not that I'm asking for that, but the thread is entitled "How has porn negatively affected you?", not "How has porn negatively affected some friend-of-a-friend?"

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My first husband, whose sexual wishes I did try to meet, pressured me into consenting to numerous attempts at anal intercourse. This proved to be a very painful experience for me, as he was extremely "well endowed", and quite athletic and vigorous as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
If MD knows women whose husbands forced them into a quintuple penatration orgy after watching "Quintuple Penetration Girls #12" then I'd much rather hear from those women directly.

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I'll assume your not asking for their names, addresses and phone numbers.

I knows two women personally and socially whose partners made major demands based on what they had seen in pornography. In one case, it was to share her with another man, including the now much discussed DP, and in another case it was an SM lifestyle that he craved. Both women put up with it for a year or two, before leaving the situation.

That being said, I'm afraid I have to disagree with much of what you extrapolate from your experiences. The experiences of those women, horrible as they are, are hopefully not the experiences of most women and men in healthy loving relationships.

People in healthy loving relationships will try a lot of things over the years, and like some of them while discarding others. I refuse to see experimentation in a healthy loving relationship as violence or brutality. I also refuse to apply my own ideas of what is appropriate to others who are in (yes, I'll say it again), healthy loving relationships.

The porn industry feeds a demand, and in part works to build that demand. However, it is not the only place people get ideas for sex.

quote:

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Originally posted by Boinker:
This entire thread makes me suspect the authenticity of Rabble as a legitimate source of bonafide opinion.

There is virtually no evidence that connects the consumption of pornography with violence or abuse. These claims have been discounted a number of times. Why then do people think the opposite?

---

In a posting in the RIP Andrea Dworkin thread I referred to two websites that help to support the view that porn and violence are indeed linked and that there is scientific support for that position:

http://www.dianarussell.com/furtherfindings.html

http://www.prostitutionrecovery.org/other_resources.html

As of tonite when I tried the first one was down, but I am sure that was only temporary.

quote:

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Originally posted by Raos:
Wow, now we're really getting into the credible scientific information. ...

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Raos, I found your reply to be dismissive and sarcastic, not a respectfull exchange of ideas at all.

I don't think this newstand is altogether unique, and by "extreme sports" I didn't mean cycling and running. I mean the magazines about guns, ammunition, weapons, etc., etc. The people who arranged this store's shelves did it with their customers in mind. Is it "unscientific" to ask why they figured the porn and the gun magazines should be placed next to each other?

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterDebator:
Raos, I found your reply to be dismissive and sarcastic, not a respectfull exchange of ideas at all.

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quote:

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Nyeh. How did you read into my text that I was excluding the parents from "society"?

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[ 27 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Criminal defence attorney Ronald S. Miller moonlights as porn star Don Hollywood. This 56-year-old has appeared in more than 90 films in the past seven years. His wife, a former accountant, is also a porn star. Ethics expert and attorney Arthur Margolis told The Associated Press there isn't anything more unethical about a lawyer doing this than if Mr. Miller were also a novelist.

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Nyeh. How did you read into my text that I was excluding the parents from "society"?

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Uh, because you asked why keeping kids out of trouble always comes down to the parents, and what's society's role in this.

If I asked why we're always focused on eating meat, and why we can't eat vegetables, I'm pretty clearly implying a distinction between the two.

At any rate, I usually treat any claims of "it's society's fault/problem/responsibility" with a grain of salt. Sure, we could institute all the changes you're suggesting (less porn in stores, more healthy outdoor activities to keep 'em occupied) but that will only replicate the world of my childhood, and while it was great to be carefree, riding our bikes, playing outdoors, throwing the baseball, playing at school, etc., we'd have dropped it all in a heartbeat to see some skin mag some kid swiped from his older brother. No, not because as 10 year olds we wanted to get a head start on disrespecting women, but because we were curious about what's behind the Forbidden Door of Mystery.

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Are you saying you don't think it's proper to even ask what such a shelf layout tells us about the consumer?

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Curiousity is good, but be honest here: you don't want to just ask questions, you want to issue conclusions.

Fact is, the layout you're describing sounds to me like simple gender segregation. Put the magazines that are mostly bought by men in the same place. Concluding that it's all of great significance, when you haven't ruled out the heavy possibility that it means nothing makes Occam's Razor cry.

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I knows two women personally and socially whose partners made major demands based on what they had seen in pornography.

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Really? My wife makes demands based on what she's seen on decorating shows. But since we're both adults, I don't feel as though I have to give in to anything I don't actually want.

If these women are being pressured to do something they don't want to do then that's a very definite issue between them and their husbands, but the problem here isn't the porn, or the existence of 101 different bizarre sexual positions in the Kama Sutra. It's the husbands pressuring their wives to do something the wives don't want to do. If their status in the marriage is such that they cannot decline to participate in any sex acts they should probably be seeing a couple's therapist, or considering a divorce.

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So most porn creates false expectations around sex the same way Martha Stewart Living creates false expectations around entertaining.

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Interesting you should mention that. I've always believed that Harlequin novels are Women's Porn. Granted, they don't have photographs (unless you count the cheezy painting on the cover) but I think the purpose is similar (make reader feel funny 'down there') and they introduce similarly absurd situations as though they're everyday normal events. I read a snippet of one once where the hero swooped in on his horse, picked up the fair maiden, and proceeded to have sex with her, on horseback while they made their getaway from whomever. That's no more and no less absurd than the pizza boy being paid in oral sex.

[ 27 April 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]