[ 05 November 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

So what does it mean to be anti-American? Isn't it just that we don't like the "system" any more than we like our own system? Some of my best friends may be American and some of my best friends may be Canadian and I am not anti those even the ones who support the "system."

Scandinavia hasn't legalised SSM since "the stone age", just because the neo-cons / libs state our health care is "in tatters" doesn't make it so and most of our ghg's are as a result of one industry's desire to be uncle sam's oil patch.

Yes Harper and others are a disgrace but I think a fact you're forgeting is that much of these problems are as a result of things such as NAFTA and a continual US interference in our affairs.

As with all empires, there are some good people in it(like our AE) but that doesn't mean I will love the empire or our nation's own wannabe colonials.

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These people don't have a lot of faith in American will for change. It's really quite a patronizing attitude.

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Unfortunately what most American progressives view as a change is to replace a neo-con with a neo-lib.

In many ways the Democrats are to the right of our own pathetic Liberals.

If a return to the glory days of another Bill Clinton is the best many hope to achieve, I will continue to look at other parts of our hemisphere for inspiration on what true good neighbours look like.

It's not patronising to look at better models than the only one offered as a benchmark but it sure is parochial to only look at the same one for guidance.

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CMOT if you're going to rant about how pathetic Canada is and how we should love Amerika at least get some facts straight:
Scandinavia hasn't legalised SSM since "the stone age", just because the neo-cons / libs state our health care is "in tatters" doesn't make it so and most of our ghg's are as a result of one industry's desire to be uncle sam's oil patch.

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OK, I was exagerating for effect. Our health care system isn't in tatters but it isn't in the best shape.

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Is there a single Babbler who isn't anti-American?

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Originally posted by navigator:
The conclusion was that French productivity was as high as the American because the French work smarter while the Americans work longer, not harder.

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I think it's safe to say that Americans work more hours per year on average with less time off than workers in other rich nations, yes.

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It does not though, mean we must dislike Americans.

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Let's agree for the purposes of this discussion, when we speak about "America" we are speaking about broad, general, lasting traits, beliefs, attitudes and assumptions about the world that are more likely to be held by Americans than non-Americans.

In my view, America reached its cultural and economic dominance in the world due to more than a rich land and a powerful military. An openess to innovation, a love of personal freedom, courage, generosity and idealism were characteristics of
America which made it not only an economic powerhouse (yes, pace, Fidel, I'm not forgetting the exploitation) but a society that other peoples genuinely looked to once as "the way it ought to be." What went wrong?

Well, in this type of discourse, if we're going to grant the "American mind/soul" some positive attributes, the horrible possiblity always exists that a good thing taken too far can become a very bad thing. The most poisonous thing a country or a people can believe about itself is that it is so superior that it has nothing of importance to learn from abroad. America has been cursed with its own self-sufficiency. It is simply possible to live in America, utterly oblivious to the rest of the world, in an isolation that is more or less impossible in any other country.

And America was birthed in violence, baptised in violence, confirmed and married in violence. The aggressiveness that makes America a world leader is tolerated celebrated, and sooner or later leads inexorably to Abu Graib, My Lai, Falluja, etc., etc. Like Stokley Carmichael said, "violence is as American as apple pie."

Now here's the thing, CMOT - when we're talking about anti-Americanism, I will be the first to admit to it, if by anti-American, you mean rejecting some of the central myths of the American psyche. I think it is not just the actions of America which are dangerous and mis-guided, but some of the American people's widely and deeply held beliefs about the nature of humanity and reality. The fact is, if a reasonable and peaceful person adopts and accepts some of these key and invisible assumptions, they start finding it sensible to keep a gun in the dresser drawer and maintain the largest military machine in history at the expense of all other human needs. Look at Michael Ignatieff.

These beliefs are crazy and destructive, and could only come to broad currency in a nation which maintains a careful cordon sanitaire around its cultural reality. So I don't know what other people mean by anti-Americanism, but to me it means a rejection of some wrong-headed views held by a large plurality, at least of the American population. Cultural arrogance is a big one, but a bigger one is gneralised fear.

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I don't ever remember saying anything anti-American. Do you CMOT?

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Originally posted by Brett Mann:

If I were an American, what I would want to do is win back America's best nature and good name in the world, the same way I want to reclaim the term "Christian" from those on the fascist fundamental right who have stolen and perverted it.

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I think British/English people once held similar sentiments about Queen and country and British empire. Some say remnants of that type of fervent nationalism can be observed at international soccer matches wherever hooligans go looking for confrontations with "the other side." The Brits, for example, are still not thought well of in some countries after all this time has passed, and I don't attribute their bad reputation for what were horrible atrocities in history to the British people who I am myself descended from. The British reputation has progressed from one of domineering imperialists to great social democracy of Europe looked up to by the rest of Europe, and finally to that of a nation still picking up the pieces from an era of neo-conservatism and willing partner in committing war crimes in the Middle East. The U.S. was also once looked up to as a great democracy and sanctuary for the world's tired and downtrodden in the last century.

I don't believe we have democracy yet in North America, and I'm not so sure we'll achieve it in this decade or the next with neocons trying to relive that golden era of William McKinley industrialism and wars of conquest at taxpayers expense. This isn't to say I don't have great hope for the future. Here's a bit of praise for American innovation - I think we can somewhat thankful to publicly-funded efforts in the U.S., like DARPA for providing us with the internet and several important technological advancements. Because I think internet communications will dwarf the significance of the railroad and automobile as tools of advancement. Significant changes will begin to happen at break-neck rates in just a few years from now but especially so in the next 20 to 30 years. Commodity-based capitalism will decline, and people-oriented service economies will evolve. The future is socialism.

[ 05 November 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Having grown up there, I was indoctrinated with the myths he described. There were some good myths and some not-so-good myths. The myths of individual freedom, generosity, decency, and openness were always the most powerful ones for me, and I can still get teary-eyed when I think of the noble inscription on the Statue of Liberty. (I'm sure Lady Liberty would be crying these days too, if she could.) These myths illustrate, for me anyway, the best of the American character, and keep alive in me a faint hope that the Yanks will come to their senses, hopefully soon, and realize how they have lost their way and are being led to hell by vicious psychopaths.

The not-so-good myths are that Americans are the best at everything, know everything,
and America is the greatest country in the world, and all others should acknowledge this and worship at America's feet. And the implied threat underlying that was if they don't, well then, America will show them the error of their ways, one way or the other. This attitude, along with the insanity of the Viet Nam war, is what sent us to Canada 40 years ago.

Ah, Canada. A decent place, full of decent people. We had both visited eastern Canada before, so we knew it wasn't filled with polar bears and igloos, but we were amazed and impressed by Canadian manners during our first visit to Montreal to suss out a place to live. We were waiting for a bus, and noted how the others who were also waiting were standing in a line. When the bus arrived, we, like the arrogant obnoxious urban Americans we were, went right to the head of the line and pushed our way in. Only later did it occur to us that the others were being - gasp! - polite!!!, and that that was how it was done there. We were blown away and thought wow! this is a pretty damn nice place with damn nice people! (Hey, any Montreal Babblers reading this? If so, do Montrealers still line up for busses?)

We still feel that way. Canada is still a pretty decent place, full of decent people (mostly). But, I have to admit, Canada has one egregious fault that has always bothered me no end, and that is its self-deprecating and subservient attitude towards the United States. I could never understand why Canadians would put themselves and their culture down as somehow being not as good as America's. I despise the pathetic cowardly bootlicking sucking up to American politicians and business types I see too often by our so-called leaders. I start frothing at the mouth when I hear about a North American Union. I want to scream out - WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU CANUCKS?????!!!!!!! This country IS better than America!!!!

So far anyway. Unfortunately, the worst of American culture, including its current political state, is spreading across our border like the foul effluent of an overflowing toilet. We are being infected by the germs of a very sick neighbor, one that should be quarantined away until it either heals itself or dies. But here's Steven Harper and his band of zombies, licking those diseased boots as fast and hard as they can, and exposing all the rest of us to the pestilence.

So I am filled with dread for the future of both my country of birth and my beloved adopted country. I've almost given up on America, but I still have hopes for Canada. With all its problems and faults, it is still a far better place to live in than the US. If we can resist being sucked into the American vortex and find our own way through the wilderness, Canada may eventually come to take the place of the used-to-be good-mythical America in the eyes of the world, and, more importantly, in our own eyes.

So, like Brett Mann, if by "anti-American" you mean a rejection of the worst aspects of the American psyche and present state of affairs, then I'm anti-American. But, more than that, I'm pro-Canadian, and I wish our politicians and so-called leaders would say the same.

The neo-conservatives have, I believe, invented a "new anti-americanism", much in the same way that zionists have invented a "new anti-semitism". The neo-cons and religious fundamentalists claim that any and all criticism of the US government is "anti-american". Part and parcel of this line of thinking is the belief that the American government always does the right thing, and that if you don't support it you are somehow against the American people.

To me, to me, real anti-americanism means either:

a) making ethnical slurs against americans, or ethnically steryotyping all americans or;

b) blaming the american people (as opposed to their government) for some or all of the ills of humanity.

I do not have anything against the American people. I believe that most american are decent, hardworking people who are badly disinformed by the powers that be in their country.

[ 05 November 2006: Message edited by: Left Turn ]

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Is there a single Babbler who isn't anti-American? There does seem to be an awful lot of anti US sentiment on this board. I share quite a bit of it, but at the same time, our record isn't blemish free, and I feel that we can't pretend to be the designated drivers of North America anymore.

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So who’s supposedly “anti-American?” there probably is a lot of “anti-American” sentiment out there—as in blaming all working class US citizens for the policies and crimes of the US government/Corporate America ruling cliques, even though, like in every other country, working class people have no binding control and very limited influence over what these institutions do.

But I don’t find that very much here. I see, quite rightly, anti-capitalist, anti-corporate, anti-statist, and anti-totalitarian sentiment here (these are all based on varying types of capitalist economics, so they are all related), that are expounded most vigorously by the US government/Corporate America, along with the resulting racism and other forms of bigotry and intolerance and oppression. But I don’t see much condoning of these policies and practices in other parts of the globe by similar institutions either (and I call people on it if I do see it, as others do here), including in Canada.

Actually, I find the term “anti-American” used mostly by US government/Corporate America brown-nosers, liars and apologists as a form of slander against any of its critics or opponents—an effort to put everyone on the defensive and therefore direct attention away from these institutions and their conduct.

I have heard US officials and their Canadian foot massagers use the term “anti-American” on every issue from world hunger, imperialism and war, corporate “globalization,” and dictatorship-propping to the softwood lumber dispute, NAFTA and even hockey. In these cases the term means nothing of value, and is just rhetoric and slander used by propagandists and hate-mongers that have no factual or ethical argument to defend what they stand for and do.

In fact, the term “American” being used by the US to describe itself has been criticized for being elitist and colonial, since the actual name of the state is the United States of America, and it is only one country among more than 60 others sharing the North and South American continents.

“America” is a name that’s derived from the famous Italian navigator and cartographer Americo Vespucci, who kept the Columbus missions from getting lost at sea (and led numerous other exploration missions after Columbus got jailed). The name was never exclusive to the US.

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...When Julius Caesar claimed his glorious victory over the Helvetii, he made it sound as if he had destroyed a vast army of 'wild and savage men'. Julius Caesar reckoned he had slaughtered more than 250,000 'insurgents'. In fact, documents found in the remains of the Helvetii camp showed that out of 368,000 people, only 92,000 had been capable of bearing arms.

In other words, it wasn't an army that Julius Caesar massacred, but a whole population including women, children, old and sick, which, I suppose, is one thing that George W Bush and Julius Caesar do have in common: pretending civilians are armed insurgents.

But there the similarity ends. One of the most fundamental differences between Julius Caesar and George W Bush is that Julius Caesar counted his dead, whereas George W Bush can't be bothered...

...And that is the biggest difference of all: Julius Caesar was an ambitious, vainglorious, would-be tyrant. George W Bush is a modest and self-deprecating one.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Well...

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This is idiotic, this board is not particularly anti-American. It was a mistake to say so. Very few people, with the possible exception of reality bites have actually said that the United States will never find its way to reform. The problem isn't so much with anti-American sentiment, but the form that sentiment takes in Canada in general. We comment on American ignorance about Canada, yet we ignore the fact that the average Canadian is probably just as ignorant about the rest of the world as the average American is about the great White North. Oh, we may know a little bit more about Southeast Asia, but when it comes right down to it, I think that many canadian citizens know very little about countries outside of the industrialized West.
The other thing that bugs is the hypocrisy in some anti-American rhetoric.
An old friend of the family condemns the American invasion of Iraq, dislikes Bush and yet supports Israel in their attempt to build a wall through the West Bank. He also favors the French initiative to ban head scarves in French schools.
Who is being imperialistic? Who is being Xenophobic?
I have had the thought that if large numbers of Americans started immigrating to Canada, it would cause the politics of this country to swing to the right, thus transforming the political landscape of this country and turning us into America's Twin, politically speaking.
I relize this thinking is extordinarily wrong headed, but there you have it.

[ 05 November 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

I agree with your assessment of Canada, generally speaking. Canada is a net beneficiary of US imperialism. The cheap fuel, and masses of consumer items we use to fill our days and convince ourselves life has meaning, are made possible by Canada's role as a junior partner in the imperialist project. First a junior partner to Britain (does anyone remember the Boer War?) and now a junior partner to the USA (Afgahnistan?).

And, yes, people are contradictory. All people are contradictory including you and I.

When it is all over the human experiment will have been a collosal waste. A single species, with self-awareness, gifted with both hindsight and foresight, and with great intellectual capacity, spent its time perfecting the science of death and destroying its own habitat all the while embracing superstition and fetishizing surface distinctions such as skin color or religious/political ideology. It would be a fascinating history if there was anyone left to write it or read it.

[ 05 November 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

When it is all over the human experiment will have been a collosal waste. ... It would be a fascinating history if there was anyone left to write it or read it.

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Keep yer positive attitude outta here, were' a bunk o' yank haters.

Seriously though, I would have to say, I'm sort of bi-polar on America. I agree with a lot of the statements on both sides here. The American people singly are typically great people. Even the i'gnant southerners, who really just don't know better because they've never had anyone explain to them how a properly run social society doesn't take money out of their pockets, it actually lifts up the whole culture. I think there's a lot of hope in the Americans as they get closer and closer to the wall. There are Hundreds of thousands of very progressive, very active socialists in the US, it's just a lot easier to hear the chorused screams of the radical rights shouting down "them faggots" and "them commies". It may not be apparent, but the progressives are there, and they're trying.

Then, on the other hand, every once in a while I hate the whole f'ing country and all the citizens who haven't overthrown their ridiculous government, because frankly, unless they do it for themselves there's only going to be massive disruption (see Iraq).

Then again, a lot of my "fellow Americans" wouldn't mind my being shipped over the border to join most of my fellow Babblers...

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Originally posted by quelar:

Keep yer positive attitude outta here, were' a bunk o' yank haters.

Seriously though, I would have to say, I'm sort of bi-polar on America. I agree with a lot of the statements on both sides here. The American people singly are typically great people. Even the i'gnant southerners, who really just don't know better because they've never had anyone explain to them how a properly run social society doesn't take money out of their pockets, it actually lifts up the whole culture. I think there's a lot of hope in the Americans as they get closer and closer to the wall. There are Hundreds of thousands of very progressive, very active socialists in the US, it's just a lot easier to hear the chorused screams of the radical rights shouting down "them faggots" and "them commies". It may not be apparent, but the progressives are there, and they're trying.

Then, on the other hand, every once in a while I hate the whole f'ing country and all the citizens who haven't overthrown their ridiculous government, because frankly, unless they do it for themselves there's only going to be massive disruption (see Iraq).

But tomorrows another day, and it will be just like the last, no matter which party manages to steal the election from the loser, who are, of course, the good people of Canada's Best Friend, no matter what we may think of them behind their backs.

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Some of my favourite relatives are American ... democrats ... and I join them in disliking their republican counterparts ... but then ... I haven't met many Canadian tories I liked either!

I think there is another aspect to our relationship with our neighbours, but this may relate to republicans too: Their historic "manifest destiny" campaign where they see themselves as rulers of all of north america.

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
For the record, I've never taken anything posted on Babble as "anti-Americanism".

Then again, a lot of my "fellow Americans" wouldn't mind my being shipped over the border to join most of my fellow Babblers...

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'kay, I think we should do a nation-to-nation swap: our right-wing whackos for yours, Ken. Divide N. America in two through a north-south longitudinal. We'll move to the California through Alaska left half, and the whackos can cheat and rob each other on their own time. Salinas-Monterey here I come.