Support our Troops

Stick this ribbon on your SUV!

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The war on terror is a phony war; there is no terrorist threat to go to war against. Washington, and its Canadian friends would have you believe the war on terrorism is legitimate: it is no such thing. It is a rationale to do things that would otherwise be considered illegitimate, such as invade other countries — Afghanistan and Iraq — creating fear and anxiety around the world.
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It is time to quit pretending that our NATO membership, or NORAD, or NAFTA, or whatever, requires Canada to participate in the war on terrorism. It would be infinitely preferable to announce that Canadians have no intention of living in constant fear, and that there is no such thing as a war on something that cannot be identified.

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The three detainees at the heart of multiple probes into allegations of abuse by Canadian soldiers have disappeared while in Afghan custody, a seemingly grave breach of the Canada-Afghan pact on detainee treatment, The Globe and Mail has learned.

That poses significant challenges for the criminal probe and raises new doubts about government assurances that all detainees are properly treated and accounted for.

Major Robert Bell, senior operations officer for the Canadian National Investigation Service, said in a brief telephone interview that NIS investigators have been unable to determine what happened to the three men, but said they are still working on the case.

When asked to confirm information that Military Police have been unable to find the three men Canadian troops handed over to Afghan National Police on April 8, 2006, Major Bell said: "No we haven't."

For almost a month, the NIS criminal investigation has been trying to locate the three prisoners as part of its investigation into allegations that detainees were physically abused by Canadian soldiers before being handed over.

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[ 02 March 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Continuing from this thread.

Support our Troops

Stick this ribbon on your SUV!

Hegemony & Yellow Ribbons

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[ 02 March 2007: Message edited by: Red T-shirt ]

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Originally posted by Red T-shirt:

The neo-conservatives and the MSM have really brainwashed a lot of people.

[ 02 March 2007: Message edited by: Red T-shirt ]

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That really is sad but not surprising Red T-shirt. I was shocked by the number of people calling in to our local CBC Radio programme about how they supported the "mission" and "troops". It was about local reserves being called up for duty in Afghanistan. You could hear the host nodding in agreement. Lots of follow-up editorializing about the bravery of the families left behind.

Link to survey

Also, I recently posted a link to an article on the case for withdrawal from Afghanistan here:

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Originally posted by laine lowe:

Am I paranoid or is this sudden patriotism a recent phenomena? Canada has had troops in Afghanistan since the beginning but it's only in this past year that the rah-rah support our troops and red friday shite has infiltrated our media and society. There are pro-military tie-ins with most sports events and the constant playing of that "FIGHT" ad on TV. It's a total brainwash assault.

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The really sad thing is that so many Canadians are falling for this jingoistic crap designed to eliminate critical thought and open discussion of the issue.

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When perusing the comments sections of leading media, I see critical thought and open discussion of the issue.

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Perhaps it is particularly galling to a generation of Canadians brought up on the Liberal Party's elimination of critical thought regarding our national psyche to realise that Canadians are a very warlike nationality.

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Originally posted by jester:

Look anywhere in this country and you will find an agressive people, not given to backing down.

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Oh, yeah?

Oh, yeah!?

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Originally posted by Red T-shirt:
Anyone who really gives a damn about our troops aught to want to see them brought home safe and sound, immediately.

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But there are many on both sides of the political fence who really give a damn about the troops. Those who oppose the "mission" say "bring 'em home", while those who support the mission say "give 'em better weapons and armoured vehicles and send them Tim Horton's coupons and fan letters from schoolchildren."

"Supporting the troops" implies neither one of those two positions, as it is consistent with both. That's why it's so politically useless to put such slogans on your clothing, cars, and other property if you are trying to proselytize against the war.

[ 04 March 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by Red T-shirt:
Sorry, but I just don't see giving them better weapons so they can kill and injure more innocent Afghan civillians as the act of someone who gives a damn about our soldiers.

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Now, they are shooting each other before they even leave their tent at base!

Canada's heroes are doing us proud:

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A soldier from Nova Scotia died Tuesday after being accidentally shot while in his tent at the military base in Kandahar, Afghanistan, CBC News has confirmed. [...]

His sister, Lisa Megeney, told the Canadian Press that the family received a call Tuesday morning from someone at the base.

They were told that he had been shot in his left lung, but was still alive.

"He was yelling for someone to call his mother," she told the Canadian Press.

Later, the family was told that he had died.

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“It is with great sadness that we mark the death of a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan. Across this country ordinary Canadians are deeply saddened by the loss of 25 year-old Cpl. Kevin Megeney from Stellarton, N.S., killed on Tuesday while serving our country in Kandahar.

“On behalf of all New Democrats, I extend our deepest and most sincere condolences to the family, friends, and colleagues of Cpl. Megeney. May the community of Stellarton take solace in knowing that Cpl. Megeney will be remembered in the hearts of all Canadians.”

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As I said, another Glorious Canadian Hero. I'm afraid Jack is approaching Election Mode. Could someone please remind him that our soldiers are not Heroes, but rather innocent young people duped into serving a misguided cause?

It wouldn't be quite so bad if Jack issued similar statements whenever our troops slaughter innocent Afghans going about there business in their own country.

[ 08 March 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by Webgear:
My guess is that Cpl. Megeney was most likely killed when someone was cleaning his/her personal weapon.

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Sometimes due to carelessness, being overtired, not thinking about the cleaning process can lead to mistakes being made.

I would compare this incident to driving a car everyday, sometimes people do not pay attention to what they are doing when driving. If you do not follow the rules of the road, you may get into a car accident and people may get killed.

Car accidents happen for the same reasons that I mention above.

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Was Megeney fragged?

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Progressive are surely apt to avoid such terms as "fragged", "friendly fire" and name things as they are: Blown away, killed by army-mates until at least accurately descriptive vocabulairy can be found.

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Am I paranoid or is this sudden patriotism a recent phenomena? Canada has had troops in Afghanistan since the beginning but it's only in this past year that the rah-rah support our troops and red friday shite has infiltrated our media and society. There are pro-military tie-ins with most sports events and the constant playing of that "FIGHT" ad on TV. It's a total brainwash assault.

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The patriotism has always been here, tis the first time something other than hockey has brought it out. The Conservatives are simply finding out that patriotism is quite easy to steer in the direction they need. It's quite sad to see the number of people that'll say they are supporting the troops/mission without having much knowledge of the mission beyond 'kill the evil and scary taliban'

Perhaps we should be more American? Support the troops, demand a tax cut!!

Frag has evolved alot too... It's more of an internet gamer room term now than anything mind you (I beleive DOOM was likely the first video game to make the 'frag' term popular).

[ 08 March 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]

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Originally posted by Webgear:
My guess is that Cpl. Megeney was most likely killed when someone was cleaning his/her personal weapon.

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In the tent?? What kind of cowboys do we send there? Do they not grasp that these toys are dangerous?

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Retired Maj.-Gen Lewis MacKenzie didn't know the specifics of this incident but said the early reports point to the accidental discharge of a weapon, the very kind of tragedy he said the Canadian Forces works hard to avoid.

"I would consider (the case is likely) a breach of discipline in taking care of the weapon," he said in an interview.

MacKenzie, who has visited with troops in Afghanistan, said no one walks around the sprawling Kandahar base without his weapons.

But he said it has been drilled into all personnel to clear their weapons – removing the bullet from the chamber – as well as removing the ammunition magazine before going into their sleeping quarters.

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Originally posted by unionist:

In the tent?? What kind of cowboys do we send there?

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I would say about 75% of the Canadians in Kandahar province are living in tents.

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Originally posted by Webgear:

I would say about 75% of the Canadians in Kandahar province are living in tents.

Unionist as I mentioned above, there could be any number of factors behind the accident discharge of a weapon. Maybe the person that fired the shot was exhausted, was not thinking about the weapon drills he was performing, or perhaps the weapon was defective.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Don't tell me that. Tell Lewis MacKenzie. He seems to think it's a whole hell of a lot more serious than someone being "exhausted", or "not thinking". I'll tell you what I think. I think the military are responsible for yet one more death in vain, and they dare to refuse comment about what happened. They should be totally transparent. Do you think it's a mystery what happened? They need forensic crime scene investigators? What a bunch of incompetent, bureaucratic, self-defending creeps you work for. And Ms. Jean calls them heroes. Sorry, Webgear, it's disgraceful.

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The event is just over 48 hours old, do you honestly believe that the outcome of the case will be made public by now?

There is likely weapon test going on, interviews of witnesses by military police, military lawyers speaking to suspects/witness, military police talking to lawyers and there are a lot more things taking place in the background. All this will take time.

Do you think that all this would happen this fast back in Canada with any event?

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Originally posted by Webgear:

The event is just over 48 hours old, do you honestly believe that the outcome of the case will be made public by now?

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Civilian dead are declared "Taliban" before the corpses are even cold.

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In an age when it’s hard to believe in heroes, the mythic “GI” of the American media is someone people want to identify with and emulate. When you can imagine yourself as the main character in the myth, that’s when the myth really grabs hold of you.

I suspect that is what’s happening to a lot of people who oppose the war but insist on “supporting our troops.” They see their soldiers as uniquely admirable role models. In the popular imagination, these soldiers are ordinary youngsters (thus easy to identify with) who have extraordinary character. They are “just plain kids” who have the kind of heroic virtues that most kids don’t seem to have anymore -- unless they go into uniform.

The mythic soldier’s virtues are all about caring for others -- buddies, the outfit, the service, the nation -- more than self. After all, no one forces them to serve. They volunteered. (The myth conveniently ignores the economic pressures that drive people into the military.) And the news media give us an endless parade of these uniformed heroes, all looking noble and handsome, telling us that it doesn’t matter whether or not they approve of the war. “I made a commitment. I have an obligation to serve. I have to do my duty,” is their constant refrain.

Identifying with such selfless heroes lets ordinary civilians imagine that they, too, might someday somehow rise to that higher level of virtue. It lets them believe that in a world so saturated with selfishness, selfless devotion to duty is still a possibility.

It also lets them believe that somewhere in this chaotic world, there is at least one institution where order still prevails -- where orders are given and carried out, where someone is in control and everyone knows it, where the concept of authority still means something. To people who feel that their own world is spinning out of control, it can be awfully comforting to have these uniformed, duty-bound heroes to identify with.

To people who feel that their nation is saturated with selfishness and spinning out of control, it can be equally comforting to see noble young people willing to sacrifice themselves for their nation. “Our troops” seem to care more about America than anyone else. So they send a reassuring message that somehow (even if we don’t know quite how) “America” is still worth serving, sacrificing, and even dying for.
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Death gets to the heart of the military myth. The absolute finality of death can easily give the myth an aura of absolute significance, making its messages seem like the absolute, final truth. In a predominantly Christian country, the story of a sacrifice of the innocent to save the rest of us (who don’t deserve it) makes the virtuous cause for which they died seem sacred, too.
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This all dovetails nicely with that other myth: We are so virtuous that we send our troops to Iraq to help save the Iraqis from themselves. According to one recent poll, 77% of Americans want to bring our troops home “if Iraq’s leaders fail to meet promises to reduce violence there” -- as if the Iraqis are creating all the violence; as if they are a bunch of ungrateful natives who could turn off the violence but just won’t; as if U.S. troops have no role in creating and perpetuating the violence.

Here on the homefront, it’s easy to believe such a myth -- and to see the whole war as myth -- because the stories about “our troops” are typically detached from any political context, as if Iraq were merely a stage on which "our troops" continuously perform their mythic deeds. It’s easy to let it all happen in our imaginations, where we can “die” heroically and still be perfectly safe.
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Understanding the mythic meaning of “our troops” does not in any way excuse the irrationality of funding a war that most Americans no longer want to fight. But it helps us understand why the public clings to such an irrational stance. It reminds us that, when it comes to war, political decisions are shaped as much or more by irrational myth than by thoughtful logic.

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Only 48% of southern Afghanis now believe their government and NATO can defeat the Taliban.

Press release

Meanwhile, right-wing Globe columnist Norman Spector (no relation, thank god) admits that the war in Afghanistan is about oil - not to build schools or promote women's rights. He says he's been hoping for some time for the NDP, the CBC, or some such pinko organization to point that out, in order to clarify the issue, but they haven't, so he is doing so.

Surprisingly, he even suggests that the US obsession with oil is responsible for the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks:

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Doubt the proposition that we're in Afghanistan because of oil? Just ask yourself if Washington would give a fig whether Osama bin Laden or King Abdullah were ruling Saudi Arabia if that country's main export were tomatoes. Does anyone believe the United States would have maintained its large military and diplomatic footprint in the Mideast and the Persian Gulf -- ever since the British pulled back in the 1940s -- if it weren't for the large reservoirs of oil? And, if there was no oil and less U.S. presence in that part of the world, is there any reason to believe that Mr. bin Laden would have declared "war" on Bill Clinton's America in a 1998 fatwa, or that 2,972 people would have been killed on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
A Senlis Council poll of 17,000 Afghan men in Kandahar, Helmand, and Nangarhar provinces conducted two weeks ago shows that 27% openly support the Taliban, and only 19% said they thought the ISAF/USA troops were helping them personally.

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Great find, M. Spector! I like this quote too:

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Canada’s current pledge for humanitarian support through CIDA is $100 million dollars per year – aid that has not been visible in Afghanistan - or about $3.40 per person per year; its military expenditures are estimated to be as much as $140 per person.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
A Senlis Council poll....

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From a related link:

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"We would support the Canadian military if we could. We would also support the Taliban if we could," an unemployed man in Helmand told the researchers.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Meanwhile, right-wing Globe columnist Norman Spector....

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Perhaps my expectations for that article were too high, but I thought it poorly presented. Neo-cons have been rejecting the argument that Afghanistan is about oil for going on 6 years now. Afghanistan is still the "right" war in their eyes and it is too bad Spector didn't follow the Unocal pipeline from Kazakhstan angle...

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Originally posted by unionist:

Don't tell me that. Tell Lewis MacKenzie. He seems to think it's a whole hell of a lot more serious than someone being "exhausted", or "not thinking". I'll tell you what I think. I think the military are responsible for yet one more death in vain, and they dare to refuse comment about what happened. They should be totally transparent. Do you think it's a mystery what happened? They need forensic crime scene investigators? What a bunch of incompetent, bureaucratic, self-defending creeps you work for. And Ms. Jean calls them heroes. Sorry, Webgear, it's disgraceful.

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Why do people on this board consistently seem to believe that they have a right to know ANYTHING about why/when/how the CF does ANYTHING? Wake the heck up, folks - it's WARTIME! Even during peacetime, as a member of the Canadian Public, you do not have the right to know ANYHING about this incident, or about any other information regarding the CF that they choose to "conceal" from you.

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Originally posted by Village Idiot:

My personal opinion is simply that someone got careless and someone else died. Accidents happen. Deadly accidents happen in deadly places. Someone will be charged, and someone else will be buried.

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You call sleeping quarters a "deadly place"? When loaded weapons are explicitly banned?

You think Cpl. Megeney's family has no right to know anything more than "someone got careless, deadly accidents happen"?

Did you read the account about how his parents got a phone call saying their son had been shot in the lung and was calling out for them? That call didn't come from the authorities, but from a friend.

It's one thing to send young Canadians to their death, but quite another to treat these horrendous incidents as state secrets.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Meanwhile, right-wing Globe columnist Norman Spector

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I was at least hoping for more silly conspiracy theories about the propsed Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline. Instead Spector erroneously conflates the specific reasons for being in Afghanistan with the general history of realtions with the Middle East. Occam would be highly unimpressed.

Is it necessarily wrong? Not really, though western involvement in the Muslim world pre-dates the issue of oil. It's merely pointless:

Oil -> Importance of M.E.-> U.S. presense in S.A. -> bin Laden gets upset -> 9/11 -> Canada is in Afghanistan

Why not blame Sudan for (eventually) kicking bin Laden out? Or go back and blame whoever it was invented the internal combustion engine? Or why do we assume 9/11 was launched in order to remove the U.S. from the Middle East and not draw it in?

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Originally posted by Free_Radical:
That's a pretty lame article.
I was at least hoping for more silly conspiracy theories about the propsed Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline.

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Instead Spector erroneously conflates the specific reasons for being in Afghanistan with the general history of realtions with the Middle East. Occam would be highly unimpressed.

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Far more effective would be for you to enlighten us with your pet theory as to why Canada and the United States attacked Afghanistan.

You could start by explaining why you think the “general history of relations with the Middle East” has nothing to do with it. You might then proceed to show how the Project for a New American Century had nothing to do with it.

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Originally posted by unionist:

You call sleeping quarters a "deadly place"? When loaded weapons are explicitly banned?

You think Cpl. Megeney's family has no right to know anything more than "someone got careless, deadly accidents happen"?

Did you read the account about how his parents got a phone call saying their son had been shot in the lung and was calling out for them? That call didn't come from the authorities, but from a friend.

It's one thing to send young Canadians to their death, but quite another to treat these horrendous incidents as state secrets.

As for you, Village Idiot, I do hope your callous attitude doesn't keep you awake at night.

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I call Afghanistan a deadly place - OBVIOUSLY.

It's not that I think Cpl. Megeney's family has no right to know anything more, it's just a fact that they actually have no right to know more - it's not MY fault, blame the CF/NIS!

I had not read the account, but I am hardly surprised. It's very sad. I hope whichever friend called them does not get into trouble for his kindness, though.

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Originally posted by unionist:

You call sleeping quarters a "deadly place"? When loaded weapons are explicitly banned?

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Originally posted by Grizzled Wolf:

Loaded weapons are not banned - rather they are mandatory. Readied weapons on the other hand (a higher state of readiness than loaded - basically a "round up the spout) are usually only required when "leaving the wire".

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So Major-General MacKenzie didn't understand the rules?

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MacKenzie, who has visited with troops in Afghanistan, said no one walks around the sprawling Kandahar base without his weapons.

But he said it has been drilled into all personnel to clear their weapons – removing the bullet from the chamber – as well as removing the ammunition magazine before going into their sleeping quarters.

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Or, as I suspect, are the "rules" unclear and the training worse?

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Originally posted by unionist:

So Major-General MacKenzie didn't understand the rules?

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Quite likely. He is retired after all, and on one of his visits (I was with him for much of that visit) he would not have had the opportunity to either observe or determine the weapons handling protocols for this theatre - which is significantly different from the last theatre of operations that he was in, over 15 years ago. Weapons are only readied (round in the chamber) upon leaving the wire, or on order. They remain loaded (magazine on, no round chambered) at all times inside the wire, hence there is no requirement to "clear weapons" upon entering the sleeping quarters, Dining Facility, etc.

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Or, as I suspect, are the "rules" unclear and the training worse?

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The rules are very clear, and the training is more than adequate - just my opinion, but based on many years of service and 4 operational tours with two different countries Army's.

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Two accidental shooting deaths in 6 months in non-combat situations make a troublesome statistic.

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