I've heard this said a lot, I'd say it's pretty widely accepted.

For that matter, I don't know if it really is that widely accepted.

And I don't know where to start looking.

In sum, I don't know what I don't know. I'm fishing. Ignore the ignoramus, perhaps.

[ 16 September 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

Just be careful not to O.D. on the subject, it's horrifying.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

Today's problems occurred when the meme made the jump into videogames, first in high-end graphics-intensive computer systems, then to the low-cost set-top box aimed at the average family.

All controls on age were bypassed, and the meme began hot-wiring itself into the brains of youth - actually becoming a requirement for success in the intensely interactive videogame environment. All social discretion and empathy programs are overwritten by a pervasive antisocial impulse to brutality. Inflicting the most damage as quickly as possible is the goal, and studies show that videogames impart such programming far better than military training methods.

[ 16 September 2005: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Today's problems occurred when the meme made the jump into videogames, ... and the meme began hot-wiring itself into the brains of youth ... All social discretion and empathy programs are overwritten by a pervasive antisocial impulse to brutality.

---

When it's Grand Theft Auto on a $300 dollar system acting as a babysitter for ten year olds whose parents are out 12 hours a day working multiple minimum wage jobs, the situation is more serious. GTA is rated for 17 years and older, btw, but most boys in my childens classes have played it.

No self-control--for anything. And you are mentally imagining that over and over.

Read a sports psych book a long time ago (may have been _The Inner Game of Tennis_ or something like that) which talked about training for your sport mentally whilst you are recovering from an injury. The more realistically you can imagine yourself serving, volleying, working on forehand and backhand shots, not only can you not lose out during injury recovery time, you can actually improve your skills---just using your imagination.

So if, with the aid of video games or pornography or both, you imagine perpetrating violent rape over and over again, more and more realistically, you are doing an excellent job of training yourself to do the act in real life.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
that study I mentioned about videogames being better conditioning to kill than traditional military training is real.

---

[ 16 September 2005: Message edited by: chubbybear ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

This one is interesting:

quote:

---

Two years ago, the IU team showed that brains of healthy teens, ages 13 to 17, reacted differently to violent video games than those of adolescents with a history of disruptive behavior.

Teens in the latter group had less activity in their frontal lobes, the area responsible for controlling behavior. Even among the healthy group, the IU researchers saw differences. Healthy teens who reported more exposure to violence than their peers also showed decreased activity in the frontal lobes.
...
Studies done elsewhere suggest that violent video games may affect more than the frontal lobes. A pilot study of eight preteens conducted by researchers at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio and Kansas State University confirmed the suspicion that violent clips would activate the amygdala, the brain's danger sensor.

The scans in this study revealed something even more perplexing - activation in the back of the brain, said John Murray, a Kansas State professor of developmental psychology and study investigator.

At first the researchers did not know what to make of this, but then they realized that the posterior cingulate, used to store long-term memories of significant events, was involved. Veterans and rape victims with post-traumatic stress disorder also show activity in this region.

But no one had realized that simulated trauma could have the same effect, Murray said.

---

Rape and power and research: Just go to Google Scholar and type in "rape" and "power" and lo! lots of information fills the screen (29,800 articles or citations).

For example, this snippet from the American Journal of Psychiatry is at the top:

quote:

---

Rape: power, anger, and sexuality

AN Groth, W Burgess and LL Holmstrom

Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs. (my bold)

---

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by WingNut:
And when some men begin to look at the issues of media and violence, other males discount them, possibly because they consume such media, and someone else suggests it trivializes rape to try and understand the dynamics behind it. .. Rather, I think it trivializes rape not to examine the role of men in the commission of rape or the reasons they commit that heinous act.

---

[ 18 September 2005: Message edited by: chubbybear ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chubbybear:

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but is the feminist forum being hijacked once again by a bunch of guys shouting their opinions again, hm?

---

To which WingNut replied:

quote:

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And that was not a self-serving comment coming from a male.

---

Did I say it was? Rather, I was expressing my appreciation for what he said!

Sure, video games and other violence in the media may certainly contribute to violence in society. And sure, as you say, other males discount them.

I did not say that these things are trivial, or that a discussion of them trivializes rape. What I'm objecting to is that the tread has what could only be charitably described as an attention-getting title, and that it started by someone asking whether there had been research on whether or not rape is about power & domination vs. sexual arousal.

I know that tone of voice is hard to convey over the internet. However, I struggled against thinking that the first post was flippant ("getting your rocks off"). I gave it the benefit of the doubt.

I also know that thread drift happens.

But this is a very, very difficult and emotional issue for a large number of women and some men who have been sexually assaulted, and for everyone else who considers rape abhorrant.

quote:

---

Rather, I think it trivializes rape not to examine the role of men in the commission of rape or the reasons they commit that heinous act.

---

No kidding. Isn't that what I was doing?

quote:

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So offer countering arguments. Real arguments.

---

Okay, I'm really, really biting my tongue. I'm going to assume you didn't mean to insult my intelligence. The original post asked for research rape and power and that's what I replied with, although a bit unwillingly because it's pretty darned easy for people to find that information.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

IMHO, there are three types of men.

1) Rapists, those for whom rape = power. They are not the majority but since their behaviours and actions multiply and often escalate, these men harm a great number of women.

2) Deniers/enablers ... call 'em what you will. They may not rape, but they use the benefits and privileges that the threat of rape / power over women brings them.

3) The men who love and respect women and who need women to love and respect them. They are appalled and outraged that other men have appropriated a virility that can be used for pleasure, joy, comfort, procreation ... and deploy it as a weapon.

All my life, I have chosen to be with men of the third group. My father is one, and his example set me to anticipate that all men were like him. Imagine my dismay and horror to encounter the other types.

[ 17 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

However....

quote:

---

Can we be honest about our deepest fantasies? Don't most of us dream of killing people who have hurt us? Isn't the social practice of rape and murder simply and extension of what most of us try to hide and deny day in and day out?

---

[ 17 September 2005: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]

Robin Williams does a very funny riff on power and how men and women abuse it differently.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

quote:

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Originally posted by WingNut: That says so much. Do some men think of their penises (peni? What's plural for a penis?) in terms of a weapon?

---

Can't speak for men, but I have friends and lovers who associated "the penis" with violence because of their life experiences.

As for your sentence

quote:

---

Do some men think of their penises ...

---

[ 18 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

quote:

---

posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus: I just have the one, but he's got multiple personality disorder.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deBeauxOs:

2) Deniers/enablers ... call 'em what you will. They may not rape, but they use the benefits and privileges that the threat of rape / power over women brings them.

---

*Men who deny that violence against women (which includes rape of course) is a systemic problem in which the perpetrators are almost always male.

*Men who think that since they aren't negatively affected by sexism/patriarchy that it's not their problem. Men who "understand" sexism theoretically but do nothing to change it.

*Men who catcall and leer at women in the street, in the workplace, in public spaces. Men who don't tell their male friends it's wrong to catcall and leer at women.

*Men who benefit from selling women useless crap to "protect" us from sexual assault.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]

quote:

---

posted by Publius: Could you (or someone else) explain what you mean by this? I'm not sure I understand how this occurs. Any insights would be appreciated.

---

Unsure about what to do, they gave it to the president of their campus chapter. Parallel to all this, there had recently been news articles about acquaintance rapes & the use of 'roofies' in bars and clubs, as well as the release of a book that studied similarities between sports teams, military units and fraternities, including the use of sexual assault as a 'bonding' mechanism.

The chapter president confronted the 'alleged' rapist who did not deny the fact that he had sex with women who were unable to give consent because they were drunk or drugged to a state of unconsciousness. In his defense, he said that all the frat brothers did this in order to get laid. He was expelled from the fraternity but unfortunately, the black book disappeared.

I heard the story from the young man who had voluntarily resigned from his position as president of the chapter because of this incident. Also reading the above-mentioned book, had made him painfully aware of behaviours and actions some fraternities implicitely and explicitely condoned.

He tried to bring the situation to the attention of the national association but it was suggested that expelling the 'errant' member was sufficient. This young man participated in the peer-helper sessions that I facilitated, for the purpose of gaining knowledge, training and skills to speak to fellow students (female and male) about preventing sexual assault.

Superficially, you could say that the owner of the black book belonged to 1(Rapists, those for whom rape = power), the fraternity association and all those who turned a blind eye to these practices to 2(Deniers/enablers who may not rape, but use the benefits and privileges that the threat of rape / power over women brings them), and the ex-president to 3(Men who love and respect women and work to stop violence against them).

Edited to complete information.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

Maybe it's the use of the words "power" and "control" which muddy the waters. Maybe we should just look at the word "bully". Or the word "vengeance".

I've read volumes, shelves of volumes, and worked with survivors and been on the board of directors of a woman's shelter and I am still horrified and uncomprehending each time some woman is brutalized.

A dear friend was ironing while watching the news on TV and there was a report about a guy in Victoria who was convicted of raping a two month old infant. she nearly died. He was deported back to England after serving a year. And my friend began to weep and said if he'd used a hammer on her they'd take it away from him and he'd never be allowed to use or own another, or if she used her iron for brutality, they'd take it away from her, but he'd used his dick and would still have it so he could use it again....

and one of my fantasies is that we get this hit squad of cranky women and go out and get payback on the ones convicted of rape...on a good day I just fantasize about trashing their cars and other toys , but on a bad day I think of straight razors, filleting knives and the deliberate removal of their weapon of choice.

They could then pee through a rubber tube. Or dribble down their leg.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tehanu:
Rape and power and research: Just go to Google Scholar and type in "rape" and "power" and lo! lots of information fills the screen (29,800 articles or citations).

---

Thanks for that, I had no idea there was a Google Scholar. I figured that if I just went into Google I'd get ~ million sketchy sources, probably 95% of them porn.

quote:

---

Originally posted by anne cameron:
I enjoy some violent fantasies!

---

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

quote:

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Originally posted by WingNut:
Also, Chubbybear mentioned fantasies about rape. As a man, I have never had a fantasy or a thought about committing rape. Such a thought is utterly abhorent.

---

All I meant to suggest was that some men who fantasize or act on sexualized violence are not a different species from that of the rest of men - it is a coninuum of violence and aggression which is partially inherited as a genetic survival mechanism and is otherwise perpetuated, nurtured and rewarded in a mysogynist society. To completely absent ourselves from the analysis or to point to external excuses such as television or video games is to deny the systemic problem of male violence.

I regret having jumped into this, as it has morphed into once again, a handful of men trying to hijack feminist analysis. Moreover, I am embarassed in that having an initial clumsy remark, I am suddenly feeling the need to defend myself from being perceived as a violent proto-rapist, unlike all the other oh so enlightened men.

quote:

---

I think that the womyn here have more careful and cogent analysis available than I could come up with, whatever reading and study I have done, because they live the experience in a way that I never can.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anne cameron:
and one of my fantasies is that we get this hit squad of cranky women and go out and get payback on the ones convicted of rape...on a good day I just fantasize about trashing their cars and other toys , but on a bad day I think of straight razors, filleting knives and the deliberate removal of their weapon of choice. They could then pee through a rubber tube. Or dribble down their leg.

---

quote:

---

Perhaps a person has to have been repeatedly, callously hurt, physically, emotionally and spiritually to start the destruction fantasies

---

Rape, though - I mean, what's the point? What kind of hurt could provoke, or justify, or whaddever word you want to use - to me, that's expressing your hate of the whole idea of life itself.

I'd like to caution everyone about the singular focus on the much-discussed penis. Sexual assault involves the whole beings of all involved. Penile penetration is *not* necessarily the main issue, and does *not* have to occur at all for an assault to have lasting damage.

I've been assaulted with a tongue. Would the world be a better place if that man's tongue were cut off? I say no.

Was I technically raped when not penetrated by a penis? What about those who are penetrated by objects other than a penis? What about those not penetrated at all? Definitions vary, but only those who haven't lived through an assault get caught up in this kind of semantic bullshit.

My soul was raped, even when my vagina, anal cavity or mouth was not.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

---

Rape is not about revenge.

---

I don't know if that's necessarily true. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of rapists hold women responsible for the disappointments in their lives and "vindicate" themselves by exerting power.

Happy, well-adjusted people feeling that their place in the world is acknowledged and affirmed do not violently attack other people.

Men who rape don't necessarily feel powerful. They *want* to feel powerful, and use sexual assault to reaffirm their place in the world. They feel their authority is threatened or that they are not being adequately respected or that their identity as a man requires putting others in their place (below them).

They might even have convinced themselves that they know what's best for other people, and they are only doing what is right and good.

There are many reasons men assault. I think video games are way down the list, as rape and sexual assault have been chronically and significantly with us for a very long time. Video games didn't play much of a role in Rwanda, Croatia, Germany, during Britain's imerialist drive throughout the world, in the assaults that have happened to me throughout my own life ...

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

I haven't heard any call to have conversations, including this one, be for women only, just chubbybear's thoughts that he can learn from women, as we can describe experiences, and fears, (since the "threat of rape" serves a purpose similar to the actual act of rape) that he hasn't experienced because he's a man.

And thank you also to writer for clarifying and reminding us that rape takes many forms.

2. Of course rape is about power, what on earth else would it be about? A rapist feels powerless for whatever reason, and asserts power over a weaker person (by weaker I mean physically weaker or in a position of vulerability). I have no doubt that there are reams of literature to back that up, particularly in the psychology field. To me it just seems to be self evident.

The fact that it is so apparent gives me some room for optimism, in that we may, someday, find a way to prevent it. Not in our current society, but I hope it is something we can work towards.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

As discomfited as a woman on a first date who is told an "off-colour" joke about how her otherwise nice date would like to squeeze her breasts just like the guy on the subway did the other day?

As upset as a woman whose boyfriend's best friend just made a drunken grab at her crotch during a party?

As creeped out as the woman who, waiting for her birth control prescription, overhears a man talking loudly to another man about how he'd like to fuck the pharmacist, who looks young enough to have a tight cherry, which he likes, because otherwise "it's like fucking a toilet bowl"?

As discomfited and upset as girls and women who hear about the mythology of family and safety all through the day in ads, TV shows, papers, conversations with friends and co-workers - girls and women with a secret they won't dare to spill out of themselves, for fear it will leave them absolutely empty, bereft and alone? A father, an uncle, a family friend, a brother, a cousin, an authority figure, maybe a combination - a thick thick layer of ignorance and denial spread between the generations and each other ...

Wingnut, in many women's world, all men are potential rapists. It is not comfortable. It is upsetting. It breaks my heart to type this. But it is - until both systematic and "random" rape, assault, verbal abuse, and sexual harassment end - the reality of our world.

Could we - just once - have a thread about rape in the feminism forum not become a discussion about sensitive men's feelings as they try to build a convenient safety wall between themselves and that reality?

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by writer:
Could we - just once - have a thread about rape in the feminism forum not become a discussion about sensitive men's feelings as they try to build a wall between themselves and that reality?

---

I cannot name a woman I know who hasn't experienced sexual oppression in a very direct way. Perhaps not raped, but given reminders that there are places they shouldn't go, ways they shouldn't dress, things they shouldn't talk about or do, unless they want severe punishment for not knowing their places.

And yet, as a society, we do not talk about an integrated response to this chronic threat and damage to half of our population. Instead, women are supposed to be street-proofed and learn how to smack a guy in the nuts if he looks funny. Not much help when you're drugged in your own bed, or assaulted at the age 8, with the world forever a distorted fun house version of what the status quo calls normal.

No, it's not like being anti-gay because you could possibly be assaulted by a gay guy some day. Not unless gay guys rule your world, taunt you endlessly, make creepy moves on you then ridicule you when you object, tell you you're prissy, or fucked up, or stupid if you don't put out from the age of 12 ... and a slut who deserves whatever is coming if you do.

Oh, but I could go on. No. It's not theoretical. It's based on our every-day lived experience of a patriarchal, oppressive mysogynist society.

Like a friend of mine who hitched a ride as a teenager - only a few blocks, and to school. Before she knew it, the guy's penis was in his hands, ready for her to service. She was a teenager. A teenager. And she said, "Put that away!" And he did. And she went to school, unscathed. Except that she had been given a reminder of who she really was, and that she wasn't free.

We accept this as common sense - that a young woman shouldn't be getting into a strange young man's car for any reason. Except a young woman getting into her boyfriend's car might be getting into something much, much worse, so the common sense becomes null and void in this world.

Stay at home: might get raped. Go outside: might get raped. Go to work: might get raped ...

Your place: you have no safe place.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:
*Men who benefit from selling women useless crap to "protect" us from sexual assault.
[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]

---

(It didn't come across, it was a Google ad for one of those devices, that appeared on this page. Irony!)

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

quote:

---

And yet, as a society, we do not talk about an integrated response to this chronic threat and damage to half of our population. Instead, women are supposed to be street-proofed and learn how to smack a guy in the nuts if he looks funny.

---

In a sense, that's our response to almost all crime. Put another, bigger lock on your door. Don't cut across the dark parking lot. Keep your wallet inside your coat. Get an alarm for your car. Don't go to that bar - it's a rough crowd.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WingNut:
it is equally important to recognize that not all men are capable of rape.

What is important, however, is that if the accepted wisdom is that all men are potential rapists and the only men welcome into the discussion are those who subscribe to that particular position, then the disussion is closed and progresses nowhere.

---

Who ever said this on this thread?

Wingnut, and other men struggling with this issue and this thread, please go back and read what women have said.

You know who first brought up the "I disagree with the notion that all men are potential rapists" phrase? You, Wingnut.

I can't speak for other women, but I have no interest in having that discussion.

.......

I wait alone for the streetcar by ads with naked women on them, ads that show only a woman's bra-covered breasts, etc, etc. I know where my keys are in my pocket and I know exactly how long it takes to get to my front door. I am aware of everyone who is within running/walking distance of me. This is not at night, this is all the time, and I don't even notice that I do it, and I'm not atypical. I don't think it's bad that I live in a world in which I do this, I don't "hate" society for being unsafe for women (stats show women are more likely to be assaulted by someone known to them). That's how life is.

Women do not need men to "appreciate" that we live in a different world than they do. We need men to listen to us. And when I say that I mean, what we actually say, not what some man here has said might be said about this issue. Our. Actual. Words.

I can't reiterate this enough: Rape, the potential of rape, and the male power dynamics of rape are not points for a hypothetical, academic discussion, not for women. That's what chubbybear gets that you appear not to, Wingnut.

I wish there were more men in the world like chubbybear, I really do.

To attempt to answer your questions, Wingnut, as I'm getting that you are trying to be an ally to women: Think about the power you hold in your life, in work, with family, in the streets, when talking to landlords, in stores. All men, esp white men, are taught that they are entitled to a certain level of power and control over others, and also entitled to a certain status in society just for being a man.

What if a man loses that power or fears losing it, or sees it always outside his grasp, or simply does not examine the violent and entitled culture that he lives in, and chooses to then enact that loss of power (or fear of loss) on the bodies and lives of women, as well as "lower status" men within his sphere of control?

quote:

---

Our whole lives are lived around crime, from the minute we lock the door in the morning until the minute we lock it again at night.

---

But you see, there's the difference: sometimes it's what's behind that locked door that is more threatening than the world contained on the outside. And yet the world on the outside keeps spouting this tripe about how friends, family and loved ones will protect you and make you safe. That crime happens elsewhere.

Fred West told his children: Don't tell anyone what happens in this house - there are dangerous people in the world, you don't know what they are capable of. And so, his children were silent in the face of hideous abuse for years. Silent when their eldest sister disappeared. Silent through rapes, beatings and mental abuse. And numb to the murders occurring in their own home.

Their sister was found under a patio stone on top of which the family had its BBQ. The skeletons of another sibling and several young women found in the basement and a couple of other locations.

When a monsterous parent or other loved one tells you there are even bigger monsters outside - a sentiment supported by our culture's popular mythology - where do you turn?

That's the world I'm talking about. *Not* the popular "random crime" shoved down our throats to be scared about. I'm talking about the real shit that goes on every day as a part of the underbelly of normal.

Not being ruled by the *possibility* of damage, allowing it to lead to fear and anxiety, but the state of being threatened, battered and oppressed at all times in the most unexpected ways and from the most shocking sources. And a culture that questions and denies the severity of the situation, or tries to make it an isolated incident that you, somehow, are responsible for.

It is systemic. It has a purpose. It is keeping women down.

As well, I reject the approach of looking at rape and sexual assault as things that are wholy separate from the other types of behaviour that inform many women's outlook that all men are potential rapists. They are only part of the whole.

Much of what I am talking about includes words and deeds that nobody would bother going to police about, it is such an invisible thread throughout women's lives. Much of it would not be considered criminal. And we'd be told that we were over-sensitive if we complained, and there'd be no legal instruments to apply to the behaviour.

For example, this was true for stalking until very recently. Now that it has a name, we can get restraining orders that often do absolutely no good.

Until recently, this was also true for a husband raping his wife: he wasn't actually legally raping his wife at all, just enjoying the fruits of the union. If she didn't want that part of the deal, she shouldn't have gotten married in the first place.

So, again, no, sexual oppression is not like every other crime, because so much of it is seen as not criminal at all, but simply as normal life that women should just get used to, and become "savvy" about, and learn to avoid bad situations, and change the channel if you don't like the commercial, and nobody forces you to read Playboy, and just shut up why don't you, instead of being such joyless feminist tyrants. It was just a joke. Where is your fucking sense of humour, bitch?

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

1. we have to rechannel men's tendency to search for power into some other venue than women's bodies

2. we have to reduce the search for power among men

if we want to end rape.

If (1), then we have to ask the question, why are women's bodies a place for seeking power in the first place? If there's a particular reason for it, then how do you substitute for it? If it's just a historical accident/catastrophe, then it should be possible to rechannel it: so who else becomes the next victim? Do we need victims to express power-seeking?

If (2), then how do you get 100% of men to reduce their search for power? Why would I say, 100%? If some men voluntarily choose not to seek power in general (and hence not power over women), then don't they simply leave opportunities for other men who don't make that choice? And doesn't the background of fear for women exist even if a just a few men rape? How do you get 100% of anything, when there are so many incentives to seek power? Even mechanisms that increase the costs of power simply give other people power...

Far be it from me to order people to argue this or that , but I think that this thread has gone in the direction of minutia about the mechanisms by which men justify rape to themselves. There are probably many ways in which such things happen, and I'm not sure it really gets to the causes.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: Mandos ]

quote:

---

Just from a logical level, it seems a fairly strong statement to make.

---

It is a strong statement and one that's both logical and well supported by social science.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chubbybear:
Um, Sure. An retired military Lieutenant (are there other kinds?) who is now hustling the lucrative speaker and consultant circuit and has no certification in psychology or sociology.

---

Well, actually, not quite true.

quote:

---

Civilian Education

M.Ed., Counseling Psychology, University of Texas, Austin, TX, Phi Kappa Phi, Kappa Delta Pi, 1990

---

And he's a psychology professor. In some provinces (not sure about the states) a master's degree is the educational requirement to be a psychologist or some other designation.

But you're right to be skeptical if the information for how the study was conducted is either unavailable or flawed.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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posted by WingNut: For me, the discussion I have been trying to have is about the power dynamics. I don't understand it or where it comes from but it seems to me critical to understanding why men commit rape.

---

quote:

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posted by Publius: There's a huge difference between revenge fantasies and rape fantasies in that revenge is reactionary. It is a response to a specific act. ... Rape is not about revenge. It is about, as the thread topic indicates, about power.

---

Rape and revenge are both rooted in violence. The ability to exert power and control over someone who submits because of physical, emotional, social, cultural or religious circumstances is intensely validating for an individual who chooses to act in a bullying manner.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

What I saw him say after that was that men may fantasize about violence, and also that society helps overcome any innate violent tendencies. No more, no less.

What I said to all the people on the thread was that I appreciated his intervening. Nobody said that only women can discuss why men rape, or that there isn't value in men analysing this topic or participating in the discussion.

I've had some time to cool down, which is helpful!

One of the reasons I was frustrated by the thread drift -- and, may I say, the subsequent joking about penises (I can joke about penises, too, but there's a time and a place) -- was that I, like many other women, have experienced sexual harassment and sexual assault, starting from childhood. I understand that men may find it difficult to hear from women that they can't understand the daily crap that we put up with, nor can they understand, unless they themselves have been assaulted, what it's like to live with it.

Including the personal feelings of guilt, that if only I had done or not done something, it wouldn't have happened. If only, at age 8, I had avoided that man, even though he was part of the household. If only I hadn't sat on that train alone. If only I hadn't trusted that man in that relationship. And then there's "well, it wasn't that big of a deal that he did XXX." Get over it.

That is what women are taught. It's taken a long time for me to get past that, and in the process this has affected my trust in straight men and my ability to let them into my life. I think a large part of me is still at "anger." I know that that's unfair to men who don't harass, who don't behave in the ways that bigcitygal, writer, and others have described ... but in my life I unfortunately have gone through six vivid separate episodes with six different men of varying levels of nastiness. And there are a lot of women in the same boat. So that's quite a lot of men.

I think all women welcome thoughtful discussion among men about rape and how it can be prevented. But that discussion has to have room for listening to women, not silencing them.

I grew up in and around New York City and was constantly sexually harrassed. One time a man two blocks from my said menacingly, "See you later" and I hurried home and locked my windows afraid that he meant it. It was, I kid you not, a near daily experience of having men force sexually-charged verbal interactions on me so they could get off on me and my reaction to hearing such things as "Bet your pussy tastes good" and "I'd fuck you in a heartbeat".

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I would feel a bit better, though, if you would go back and reread some of your earlier posts imagining you were a woman for whom sexual assault was a deeply personal issue, for whom it is difficult to talk about, and who is frustrated by well-meaning men -- not all, I know -- putting forth various theories, without owning the problem, and seeming to get defensive when asked to see the bigger picture.

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I mean, some of these crimes are so heinous that to "own the problem" means...what, exactly? And if one is not oneself guilty of such crimes, then what is all this but a (worthwhile and important) "academic" exercise?

Now I see the counterargument: that men in general are sufficiently conditioned and embedded in society that they cannot escape subtly reinforcing some of these trends (if not themselves being guilty). But then it becomes a matter of scale.

Similarly,

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It makes me feel sexually violated to have a man breathe into my ear, "My cock, your tits, it's a date" as I pass him on a bridge, but what can I do about it, what can any woman do about it except put up with it because we would be laughed at for suggesting there should be laws stopping men from forcing themselves psychically on women walking public streets.

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So when I say that it's a good thing for men to "own the problem" of rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment (as writer and others have so eloquently pointed out, these are on a continuum which women have to live with on a daily basis), what I mean is some or all of the following:

- understanding that women's experience of these things gives them a perspective you don't share;

- realizing that as a man you have the privilege of not feeling sexually threatened on a routine basis;

- understanding that power issues between men and women are also on a continuum, rape being on the extreme end;

- giving women the space to speak of these things and listening carefully to them;

- understanding that for women this is not an academic discussion, but rather one of deep personal significance;

- taking personal responsibility for working to shape a society where women don't feel sexually threatened and in which women aren't sexually assaulted;

- learning about the work that feminism has undertaken towards these goals, and respecting and supporting this work.

[edited to add: Also, understanding that for a woman verbal sexual harassment can be as bad as physical sexual harassment. If someone breathes in our ear "my cock, your tits, it's a date" how are we to assume it's not a prelude to a physical assault? How do we like to be reduced to an object of lust? How does that at all enable us to trust men? What does it say about our society that this is considered acceptable -- or at least, unpunishable -- behaviour?]

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: Tehanu ]

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: Tehanu ]

But..you will probably never "understand" a woman's point of view regarding rape and power.

Mr. Magoo reacted strongly when I shared , as honestly as I know how, violent fantasies of revenge. I cited the example of a two month old infant who was raped and damaged for life. Mr. Magoo did not react to that image, did not write of a visceral response, a feeling of horror that an infant of two months was rent asunder. He objected to my vengeance fantasy of cutting off the guys weapon of choice. And Magoo is not a male supremicist arstle, he is, much of the time, a very insightful man who can make some hilarious quips. The thought of a man having his dribbler cut off moved Magoo to react and respond. The thought of an infant ripped apart seems not to have caused any reaction or response.

Chubbybear honestly shared the fact of violent fantasies and was hopped on and stomped because he seemed to suggest "all" men were capable of rape. Men wrote in to hotly deny they were capable of rape.

Did those men have their dicks amputated? To many of us (I would almost dare say all of us but of course that would be stupid), to many of us if a figure walking down the street appears to be equipped with a penis we are looking at a potential rapist.

Sorry.

I don't care how nice you are, you've got the equipment and it is by your choice that you don't use it to rape. YOUR choice. Not because this nation provides severe penalties for rape, not because an eighty two year old woman in a wheelchair was raped repeatedly by "home invaders" and the justice system was so sickened it actually DID something. Not because we have courses and workshops in school which teach anger management and where to go to get help for power and control issues. Not because there is much of anything to make any of us safe but simply because you choose not to be a monster.

Thank you for making that choice. And I am sincere when I write that. I hope you will teach your children to make that same choice.

I wish this nation would DO more to support you in your choice.

I have a four and a half year old granddaughter who is so physically gorgeous that every time I see her I am struck with wonder that such beauty can just walk around on two feet, wearing blue jeans and learning to ride a bike. And a very nice man said "she'll be a heartbreaker". He did not realize that he has already sexualized that baby in his mind. He has projected ahead to a time when she will be...

And I am a bitchy old dyke with no sense of humour because when another nice man held out a foil wrapped candy and said "if you give me a kiss I'll give you a candy", I pulled her away and told him he was not to teach my grandaughter to be a hooker. I said to him that if he wanted to give her the fucking candy, give it to her. But don't trade it for a kiss. If she wants to give a hug of thanks, fine, but nobody is going to smile and teach her she can get something for her kisses.

And there are men who do not even realize what it is they are doing! The poor dolt was so hurt when I told my baby not to take his candy, Grandma would buy her an entire chocolate bar instead.

One day she might well be a waiter, working while going to university. I was recently in a restaurant and the waiter, who was maybe nineteen , went to a table of men, introduced herself and asked How may I help you. And one well dressed man said Well I'd prefer a blowjob but I guess a hamburger will have to do...the young woman gave him "a look", shook her head, and wrote his order .

When and if my baby is a waiter and meets up with that arstle or his twin I sincerely pray to Old Woman that she just fire a kick into his fuckin face. And he can eat that!!

And NOT ONE of the other men protested the rudeness, NOT ONE of them said Jesus, you're a rude prick, I think I'll move to another table, I don't want people to think I approve of the way you talk to women. NOT ONE of them said You're out of line.

You guys have to speak up. It isn't enough to SIT and be quietly embarrassed, it isn't enough to SIT and think oh god I'm glad my mom isn't here to hear that, it isn't enough to SIT, silent as the tomb and squirm inside.

Squirm. Most women with whom I have discussed and listened to them discuss this issue have a worm, or a snake, or "something" which lives in the very centre of their entrails. It is the result of conditioning, it is the result of experience, it is the result of actions and behaviours foisted on them by those born with the little withered root. And that "it" SQUIRMS when "jokes" like the one made to the young waiter are told, and squirms again when the men at the table do not protest. That thing squirms when we are walking home from afternoon shift and hear footsteps behind us. We can tell from the rhythm and the impact of those footsteps if it is a penis-person or a safe person coming behind us.

We often think of you as either "tame" or "not tame". If you are "tame" we can marginally relax around you. Some of us are able to relax enough to love you, live with you, have kids with you and be glad they are with you. Others of us never fully relax, not even with our sons and grandsons. Some of us will not fully relax all the days and nights of our life and will die with that "it" squirming. That "it" squirmed at the thought of my baby trading a kiss for a candy. That "it" squirmed when that fucker made that comment to that kid whose only sin was that she wasn't born rich enough to not need a minimum wage job. And when that "it" squirmed I said aloud "I hope your mother never realizes what a fuckin' pig you are.". Because I do not depend on tips to bring my take-home pay to a halfway reasonable level.

We are not interested in euphemism, we are not interested in cerebral contemplations, we are not the least bit interested in nit picking analysis of five times the square root of sweet fuck all. We are trying to explain to you and we reserve the right to do that on our terms with our language. And if our pain, our anger, and our distrust offends you, hurts you, or bothers you maybe you could take the time to examine the reason WHY.

Do you not have daughters? Do you not have nieces, sisters, mothers, grandma's? Have you ever held a newborn baby regardless of gender, felt that incredibly velvet skin, looked at the tiny stem of a neck, realized it is totally and utterly dependent on you for every breath it takes and felt that wave of humility and the fear that you were unworthy of being entrusted with such a treasure. Now get in touch with that feeling and contemplate the image of that two month old infant. And get real! Do not challenge us for using words which make you feel less than comfortable. Challenge the arstles who think they can talk like swine, challenge those who hear the sick filthy jokes and laugh at them. Get involved. This isn't just a trial run, this is your life.

Lard T'underin Jesus wrote of the amygdala and the posterior cingulate and how it stores long-term memories of significant events. And even "simulated trauma" can have an effect. Well, for us, empathy is where we live. We hear or read of that two month old baby or that eighty two year old woman in a wheelchair and to us it is a significant event, it is stored in our brains and it haunts us because it could happen to any of us at any time. It could happen to my grand daughters.

THAT doesn't seem to upset some of you. But when I write that I'd gladly slice off the fuckers equipment, boy the knee jerk reaction is almost immediate.

It's just a chunk of flesh, guys, it ain't the Holy Grail or the Godhead incarnate. You use it to pee, okay? It isn't something consecrated, it's just a dangling pisser, don't get fraught!

Put your energy into examining ways you can challenge the pigs who will one day be "relating" with your daughter.

The other night, at a party, a guy who would like people to think he is nice and respectable and a good family man was eating barbequed chicken wings and, laughing, he held out the gnawed wing and asked a woman "Hey, how'd you like to suck my bone?". Helaughed. A whole whack of men laughed. The woman told him to be careful or he'd find out exactly what she could do with a chicken bone.

She walked away and the opinion of the very nice men was that she was a humourless rude bitch.

I guess he's still a nice respectable family man.

Men like him make me sick. And men who just laugh as if that kind of rude tacky behaviour was acceptable make me sick. And men who SIT and say nothing in the face of such open hatred of even the infant females in this society make me sick.

Make a lot of us sick.

And we will discuss this issue on our terms, in our language, to and with each other and those men who have the jam to enter the discussion with respect. And the rest of them can go suck rocks.

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The thought of a man having his dribbler cut off moved Magoo to react and respond. The thought of an infant ripped apart seems not to have caused any reaction or response.

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Whoa. That's a little bit below the belt, don't you think?

I didn't react to the idea of some man being castrated. I reacted to the way you graphically recounted it, and took a perverse sort of ownership of it, and maybe even a pride in it.

If the man who violated an infant were here recounting it in the same manner I'd have been doubly shocked.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
And he's a psychology professor. In some provinces (not sure about the states) a master's degree is the educational requirement to be a psychologist or some other designation.

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A licenced psychologists:
Requires prior licensure as a Provisionally Licensed Psychologist
Requires a doctorate degree in psychology
Requires the passage of the Oral Examination
Requires two years of supervised experience

First, while I'm certain most men have violent fantasies, I'm not sure most men have rape fantasies. I personally have not had any... somehow mutual desire seems like something more exciting to think about it. Secondly, with respect to the comment that all men would commit rape if they could get away with it, I think that's based on a simplification of human nature, a view that behavior is based purely on subjective cost/benefit. Would I commit murder if I could get away with it? No, because I would spend the rest of my life feeling guilty and haunted, and that's hardly appealing. I'd also the action as a cowardly solution to a problem, violence is a tool of desperation. Even soldiers who mainly kill people they are consistently told are animals, people who are in a position to kill them, often feel a lot of guilt for the rest of their lives. The key point here is that the capacity for empathy makes up most of our identities. Empathy is seeing other people as concious and emotional agents, and being able to feel their emotions to some extent.

My own opinion is that some of the analyses posted on this thread are making the issue too complicated. I actually think the issue with most rapists might just be that they don't feel empathy or at least not as much, and as such the woman's concern is largely irrelevent next to his sexual cravings/addiction/pathology. In this sense I view a rapist as being part of the same family as a CEO who defrauds his employees and shareholders, among other examples. It's either not being able to recognize the human being(s) at the other end, or dissaciating from it, such as haters do. My own view on empathy is that people are as likely to have more or less of it as they are likely to have more or less of mathematical reasoning, height, sociability, memory or any neuropsychological trait.

Another aspect is education, I think there could be some benefit in incorporating rape discussion in sex education classes. They may have them in most for all I know, they didn't have them in mine. One thing I remember learning that surprised me, a couple years ago i read a stat which said 25% of women in college get raped during the college years. "wow, big number, shit." Any guy I've met who would strike me as an asshole I've dissasociated with, and as such the fact I can't see any of my male friends (re: I don't hang out with jerks) as being rapists partly led to the surprise. The other half is that of the women i know, if any of them did get raped, they would be discussing it with their female friends in all likelyhood. As such, it's more logistically difficult for men to became acquainted with this issue. Personally all the direct information I've learnt about it is from reading and introspection - and most people don't even read.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: fast_twitch_neurons ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Whoa. That's a little bit below the belt, don't you think?

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You ask how an idea can be rape: A boss saying, "Suck my dick or you're fired" to a female employee is threatening her sexually without touching her because it's not an abstract idea being put forth so much as an act of sexual abuse taking place in the speaking of it. Calling someone a nigger is recognized an act of racial discrimination, not merely "saying something that makes other people uncomfortable".

You'll never be able to answer how we make men stop verbally attacking women on the streets until you get to the place where "Whites only" isn't considered simply a discomfitting sign but an act of discrimination intended to dehumanize a group of socially oppressed people that will not be tolerated.

If a husband hears a strange man saying to his wife what I've had said to me and then punches the man, who would consider him in the wrong? No judge would convict that husband, but I lack the ability to commit the male violence that would be acceptable in this case so there's no recourse for me.

Why not question why men would pay 4 or 5 dollars a minute for sexual ideas over the phone? Connect how those sexual ideas are worth so much money to men that they pay no small amount of their hard-earned money for it to the men who get their verbal kicks by forcing themselves on women they don't pay for the selfish use of their female sexuality.

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: Thalia ]

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

edit: this was for Tehanu

[ 19 September 2005: Message edited by: Mandos ]

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posted by Mr. Magoo: But typically, just as a general rule, we don't fantasize about mutilating people on babble, male nor female, young nor old. That's all.

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There are times when the power of words, spoken and written with passion, urgence and honesty is the only weapon left against evil.

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posted by fast_twitch_neurons: ... One thing I remember learning that surprised me, a couple years ago i read a stat which said 25% of women in college get raped during the college years. "wow, big number, shit." Any guy I've met who would strike me as an asshole I've dissasociated with, and as such the fact I can't see any of my male friends (re: I don't hang out with jerks) as being rapists partly led to the surprise. The other half is that of the women i know, if any of them did get raped, they would be discussing it with their female friends in all likelyhood. ...

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but I have had fifty years of active involvement with women who have been brutalized. Not merely discomfited, not merely made uncomfortable, not merely momentarily embarrassed but brutalized, terrified and damaged. EVERY woman I have met who has been raped has said "I thought he was going to kill me".

And so if I am less than acceptable in polite and refeened society... so be it. I don't give a fat rat's ass for niceness. We've been told to be "nice" and to be "gentle" and to be very circumspect because, after all, we are the ones who set the first examples for the children, we are the nurturers, the care givers.......

well we are also the scarred and wounded, we are the traumatized who cannot go out of the house at night, we are the ones who feel the snake squirm if there is a knock on the door or a ring of the doorbell..and some of us go home knowing the fucking devil is waiting for us and if we don't treat him exactly as he wishes to be treated we'll wind up at the Emergency...

and you want to discuss it cerebrally? And you get very upset that some of us might be so goddam sick and tired of the evasion and gutless silence that we are ENRAGED and fantasizing acts of vengeance?

You want to nit pick about vocabulary?

Yes I am an angry old dyke. My one wish right now is that I was an angry young dyke with the energy to get as involved today as I was a few years ago.

But tempus fugits. I am no longer physically or emotionally able to help pick up the pieces. I have only my words and this machine.

If what I write bothers you, if it makes you squirm, then I can sleep tonight feeling that maybe, just maybe, my babies are a tiny bit safer than they were this morning.

I simply ask all the men to stop euphemizing and cerebralizing and think of one small female child they know...think of her, dammit! Is she not worth your discomfort? Is her safety not worth you finding your voice? WHAT has she done to you that is so horrible you will SIT and do nothing when some fuck says "if they're old enough to bleed they're old enough to butcher"... they are talking about that little girl...

Just speak out against the slime, the miasma of hatred that infects us and our society. As long as the men who aren't rapists just sit the rapists control the streets. As long as the men who are capable of empathy can disociate from the pain being inflicted on our babies the rapists and jokers have it all their own way. As long as all you do is cerebrally consider the possibility of a potential power imbalance which really ought to be discussed in more detail and a sub committee be appointed to bring some research to the next monthly meeting the arstles rule.

And our anger grows. And I bet I am not the only woman who has read or heard of an atrocity and blurted Oh Jesus, I wish I could.........

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Any guy I've met who would strike me as an asshole I've dissasociated with, and as such the fact I can't see any of my male friends (re: I don't hang out with jerks) as being rapists partly led to the surprise.

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You know, I didn't see the various men who have assaulted/harassed me that way either. Some of them were, in fact, "progressive." Nice to cats. Gave money to charity. Protested war. And yet they still assaulted me.

You can't always tell. It would be a lot easier if abusers wore a sign. Then we wouldn't feel quite as ambushed and betrayed if it's someone we trust.

Disassociating with men who strike you as assholes won't change them. It won't change anything. Standing up, as anne cameron says, and telling them their behaviour is unacceptable, that may make a difference.

See, when I tell off a guy who's just said something sexist or offensive, I'm a humourless bitch.

When a guy tells off another guy for the same reason, I have a sneaking suspicion he might (possibly) be listened to.

Mandos wrote:

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Most of your list really boils, in essence, down to "not being part of the problem"---talk of responsibility often seems to imply guilt.

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Actually what I was hoping you'd get from my list was to be part of the solution. I take responsibility for educating people, even though it's pretty damn exhausting sometimes. The women here who are sharing stories, emotions, anger, frustration, and really, a lot of patience ... they're taking on a LOT of responsibility.

powerfull men don't have to rape and there would be no thrill to forcing sex on a woman--or man

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and you want to discuss it cerebrally?

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So those are our two choices? We must either use the dry and detached language of the clinician, or else it's fantasies involving filleting knives?

We either stifle and silence anger, or else it's straight razors?

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Originally posted by anne cameron:

You guys have to speak up. It isn't enough to SIT and be quietly embarrassed, it isn't enough to SIT and think oh god I'm glad my mom isn't here to hear that, it isn't enough to SIT, silent as the tomb and squirm inside.

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I think this is a really good point. This is where men can really start to walk the walk. Merely understanding it, intellectually or emotionally, isn't going to help much if you're not challenging violent, pornographic, or sexually demeaning/exploitative language in your own circles.

A simple and so-common-as-to-seem-innocuous example is the current expression to 'bitch-slap' someone - what the hell does this mean?? I know both men and women use the term, usually humourously, with both men and women as the objects, but what's the difference between 'bitch slapping' and simply slapping? And why do we need that difference in our conversation?

You don't have to argue a feminist manifesto to challenge people on their language or attitudes. Sometimes just saying "what do you mean by that? why did you use that term/expression?" can be embarassing enough for them. And if it isn't, maybe you're hanging out in the wrong circles.

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You know, I didn't see the various men who have assaulted/harassed me that way either. Some of them were, in fact, "progressive." Nice to cats. Gave money to charity. Protested war. And yet they still assaulted me.

You can't always tell. It would be a lot easier if abusers wore a sign. Then we wouldn't feel quite as ambushed and betrayed if it's someone we trust.

Disassociating with men who strike you as assholes won't change them. It won't change anything. Standing up, as anne cameron says, and telling them their behaviour is unacceptable, that may make a difference.

See, when I tell off a guy who's just said something sexist or offensive, I'm a humourless bitch.

When a guy tells off another guy for the same reason, I have a sneaking suspicion he might (possibly) be listened to.

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You're possibly right. Men and women judge character differently though. Men also behave differently around women. It seems to me if I had that kind of behavior, I would put up a sociable front through ativities like donating to charity, owning cats or volunteering to help sick children. I think most men would be cynical of anyone who brags about their contributions to charity, not with respect to rape, but in terms of general behavior.

I'm kind of disturbed by what you wrote though.

I'm sure abusers do wear some sort of implicit signs, it'd be nice if there were research on that rather than on less practical issues, and that if the results were then taught in sex-education courses. One example of the financial-laundering aspect of the rape industry is rape-defense courses, apparently they continuously tell women to 'trust their instincts' with stories of how women who didnt want to be racist or prejudiced against the guy across the street got mugged. If I was collecting money from people I'd tell them soothing things like trust your instinct too. You tell people what they want to hear, and they'll like you as an authority figure. $$$$$$$$$$. But the fact is is that random street muggers are a small problem compared to acquaintance rape, which is where instinct fails.

Personally, I think I could be of much better help if I knew what to notice. I think language such as 'slapping bithces' is about as much a warning sign as grand theft auto. Pretty much the only time the word 'bitch' is used among my male friends and I is when somebody got dumped/lied to/rejected/cheated on/etc, in which case it's the female analogue of 'jerk.' I've seen other guys use it differently though, as a general-purpose noun. In that context I'd guess your point resonates more. I guess it was easier to ignore the behavior than to confront it, people already tend to think of me as self-righteous. I'll try and be more concious of the issue next time.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: fast_twitch_neurons ]

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I'm sure abusers do wear some sort of implicit signs, it'd be nice if there were research on that rather than on the ridiculous sex/power debate, and that if the results were then taught in sex-education courses.

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You really missed my point. Which was that it's often impossible to tell who is an abuser, and that abusers may well be perfectly nice people (not just using charity to "put up a sociable front"). Some of these men may not even recognize that what they're doing is assault, or perhaps they rationalize it away.

Teaching women how to better recognize who might be an abuser in a sex ed class again puts the onus on women, without addressing the bigger problem.

As has been said earlier in the thread, rape is NOT just a problem for the individuals involved. Writer put it beautifully:

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... one of the great lies being perpetuated right now is that rape is an individual experience. Rape, assault, harassment and their ilk have been used as tools against women for a good long time. They are tools used to oppress us.

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Rape will continue to be a problem for women as long as women are treated like sex objects to be used by men. There's a lot that men can do to change this, starting with challenging the sexism they encounter on a day-to-day basis, to working with women to change the structures in society that oppress them. There have been a number of threads on this forum (usually called something odd like "equality achieved, let's move on") in which there is discussion on what has not yet been achieved and what still needs to be done.

As a quick aside, I know you're new to this discussion, but please be careful when you say "ridiculous sex/power debate" as for many of us here, as you've gathered, it's very, very important. I'm sure your intention wasn't to minimize it but that's how it came across.

(Edited for typos and also to say thank you to the men who've come in and listened)

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: Tehanu ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: Tehanu ]

quote:

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Originally posted by fast_twitch_neurons:

Personally, I think I could be of much better help if I knew what to notice. I think language such as 'slapping bithces' is about as much a warning sign as grand theft auto. Pretty much the only time the word 'bitch' is used among my male friends and I is when somebody got dumped/lied to/rejected/cheated on/etc, in which case it's the female analogue of 'jerk.' I've seen other guys use it differently though, as a general-purpose noun. In that context I'd guess your point resonates more. I guess it was easier to ignore the behavior than to confront it, people already tend to think of me as self-righteous. I'll try and be more concious of the issue next time.

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Not to prolong this thread (it seems like the general consensus is to wrap it up): I thought after that I should have written men and women should be trying more to confront this kind of language. It's just as difficult for women to do as for men. Sometimes I'll hear gay men/gay male friends use expressions like 'bitch slap' with each other "affectionately", not even seeing that the roots of this expression are quite violent. Sometimes I don't know how to confront that, especially if I'm not involved in the conversation. I guess I could say: "ohh, that's kind of a harsh term to be using".

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: jas ]

quote:

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Originally posted by anne cameron:

If what I write bothers you, if it makes you squirm, then I can sleep tonight feeling that maybe, just maybe, my babies are a tiny bit safer than they were this morning.

I simply ask all the men to stop euphemizing and cerebralizing and think of one small female child they know...think of her, dammit! Is she not worth your discomfort?

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Of course. But have you heard anyone on this forum actually DEFEND rape? Or even defend degrading treatment and inappropriate comments? I don't believe I have. You're babies are not safer than they were this morning for the simple reason that nice, normal well adjusted people didn't pose a threat to them BEFORE your comments and sick, twisted, evil people will still pose a threat AFTER.

You stated earlier that the reason all men are potential rapists is that they have a penis. Are all women potential prostittes because they have a vagina? To use your words, they own the equipment. I have fists and feet, so does that make me potentially someone to physically assault someone else (male or female)?

No matter what, the good men stay good always always always and forever, and us angry bitter feminist assaulted people just can't find a way to LOVE the GOOD MEN ...

Please. Give it a break. Listen for a while. Stop with the knee-jerk need for reassurance. It. Doesn't. Help.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 21 September 2005: Message edited by: jas ]

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How about we acknowledge every single human being is capable of terrible evil and violence. Any man can rape. Any mother can drown her babies. Any child can crack the skull of a sibling. Any one of us can hunt down our neighbours, slit their throats, and empty out their refridgerators. We are all just one step away from evil incarnate.

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Jeepers, WingNut, are you trying hard to miss the point? Not everyone lives in a culture where women drowning infants is portrayed as normal and understandable. We don't live in a culture where women walk down the street and say to parents, "Wow, I'd like to grab your little one and stick a few pins in 'im." We don't live in a culture where employers casually say to employees, "I'll give you a promotion if you hand over your kid. I've got a few experiments I'd like to try."

This is what feminists are trying to draw your attention to: we live in a culture where the day-to-day oppression that women live creates this huge opening for predators to verbally abuse us, harass us and assault us. And when we point our fingers at the normal stuff that supports the extreme stuff that GOOD GUYS aren't any part of, we are called hypersensitive and devoid of humour.

In a culture where male friends and family can casually comment on what you wear, where you go, what you say, and talk about other women as objects ... in a culture where you go out the door and are prepared for any man to say any shit that pops into his mind about you as a sexual being ... in a culture where you don't earn as much, don't get equal respect, are drowned out by the opinion of men in popular media ... in a culture where incest is taboo, but incest survivors are more often than not forced to be silent and live a lie ... in a culture where date rape, casual assaults, coercive sex are EVERDAY REALITIES for MORE THAN HALF THE POPULATION ... THAT is the culture where the statement that "all men are potential rapists" needs to be dealt with in a more intelligent way than responding, "Well, everybody is capable of being bad, if you really think about it. So what?"

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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It's not an academic argument. It's a very emotional argument.

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That seems to excuse a lot.

quote:

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Originally posted by Publius:
you don't understand what it's like to to be a man completely in love with a woman who means everything to you, who you would do anything for, whose appreciation for a woman's honour and dignity and whose understanding of sex causes you to refrain from pre-marital sex, to know that if anyone violated your wife, you would devote the rest of your life to hunting down and killing that person...

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Dag, you have just put out one of the weirdest examples of irony I have seen in a long time. Not only do you decry womyn's lack of sensitivity to your understanding of womyn's issues, then you illustrate it with one of the most regressive caricatures of male-female relationships I have heard outside of Real Women of Canada.

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Chivalry: the pretty side of oppression.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jas:
Sometimes I'll hear gay men/gay male friends use expressions like 'b***h slap' with each other "affectionately", not even seeing that the roots of this expression are quite violent.

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quote:

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Jeepers, WingNut, are you trying hard to miss the point?

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[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

quote:

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quote:
Jeepers, WingNut, are you trying hard to miss the point?

Read your response to publius. You suggest any normal guy can suddenly become a monster. I submit that is true of any normal person. That is all.

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Read your own defensive, obfuscating posts throughout this thread. You are part of the problem.

Edited to add: Oh, now you can't, because you've *deleted* those posts. Cute!

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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Originally posted by chubbybear:
Sorry for the off-topic comment, but the use of this phrase grates me in another way as well, in that it is frequently an appropriation of cultural voice, as a caricature of what was originally a part of ironic African American slang.

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quote:

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Originally posted by writer:

Chivalry: the pretty side of oppression.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

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quote:

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posted by WingNut: You suggest any normal guy can suddenly become a monster. I submit that is true of any normal person. That is all.

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You have a choice. This is not about "protecting" invidual female human beings who are important to you and abandoning the rest of women to fend for themselves. No. This is about understanding and engaging, in the same manner that you may take ecologically responsible actions to save and respect our 'natural world'.

Most, if not all, cultural and social environments are deeply misogynistic. If you want this to change, pay attention to what has been said and written here. When women describe verbal and physical acts of sexual violence, as well as the lifelong consequences that exposure to this toxic environment produces - listen. Don't argue. Listen. If you argue, it says to me - whether or not that is your intent - that you are rationalizing or defending or justifying or objecting or denying or suppressing.

Now that you know this, you have a choice. Listen or accept that you are an enabler of violence against women.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

I mean, jeez, get real here! Yes,any woman can be a prostitite. You wouldn't believe how many women in Canada live with, sleep with, and fuck men they do not admire or respect simply because of economic dependency, of the need for a roof over their kids' heads and food to feed them. Some call it "marriage". It's still a form of prostitution.

As for chivalry..I'll open my own doors for the rest of my life if it guarantees some safety for the babies.

And Magoo is still worrying about the cod filleting knife and studiously avoiding any examination of the assault on a two month old infant in Victoria.

And yet Magoo can get bent right out of shape and wield his word-sword at a fat joke.

quote:

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Read your own defensive, obfuscating posts throughout this thread. You are part of the problem

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Sure. And you are opposed to police profiling, right?

As for the potential of any human being to engage in heinous acts of violence:

quote:

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A substantial number of women, and even girls, were involved in the slaughter in countless ways, inflicting extraordinary cruelty on other women, as well as children and men. Women of every social category took part in the killings. ... The extent to which women were involved in the killings is unprecedented anywhere in the world. This is not accidental. The architects of the holocaust sought to implicate as much of the population as possible, including women and even children. ... Some women killed with their own hands. ... Women and girls in their teens joined the crowds that surrounded churches, hospitals and other places of refuge. Wielding machetes and nail-studded clubs, they excelled as "cheerleaders" of the genocide, ululating the killers into action. They entered churches, schools, football stadiums and hospitals to finish off the wounded, hacking women, children and even men to death. Some women have been accused of killing or betraying their own husbands and children. Above all, women and girls stripped the dead -- and the barely living -- stealing their jewellery, money and clothes.

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Publius and Wingnut: Your ongoing refusal to acknowledge the reality of violence against women and the numerous specific ways that it is condoned and promoted

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And Magoo is still worrying about the cod filleting knife and studiously avoiding any examination of the assault on a two month old infant in Victoria.

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If you want to be a violent thug, be one. If you want to fight sickening violence with more sickening violence, help yourself. If dreaming of unthinkable acts of "revenge" on men who've done nothing wrong gets you through the long and lonely night, have at it.

quote:

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Written by WingNut and not deleted as yet:
As for the potential of any human being to engage in heinous acts of violence ...

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Yes, and those women lived in a culture that had *normalized acts of violence against the other.* Just as we live in a culture that *normalizes the day-to-day oppression of women.*

Thanks for proving my point. And answering the question: You ARE working hard not to get it.

Please, in future, do not waste what imagination you have reading between the lines of what I write. I have never written anything about your wee balls, and have no interest in them. I have never dictated what you should post. I have called you on your chronic self-obsession and sad little ego needs and demands in this thread. And outlined how your overweaning needs can hurt women.

You do not get it. Sadly, it looks like you never will.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jas:
Like a few other words I can think of... But what did you mean by ironic African-American slang?

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quote:

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Originally posted by anne cameron:
As for chivalry..I'll open my own doors for the rest of my life if it guarantees some safety for the babies.

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I have no doubt that you would. But do you honestly see a connection between men opening doors and a lack of safety for the babies?

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Please, in future, do not waste what imagination you have reading between the lines of what I write. I have never written anything about your wee balls, and have no interest in them. I have never dictated what you should post. I have called you on your chronic self-obsession and sad little ego needs and demands in this thread. And outlined how your overweaning needs can hurt women.

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But it seems my major crime is desiring to discuss it at all.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

quote:

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And there you go attempting to attack my masculinity -- a very male thing to do -- for merely expressing my opinion. And my opinion has not differed subtstantially from yours on the primary issues. In fact, I am not certain it has differed at all in that all I have asked for is a discussion as to why some males seek power over another.
But it seems my major crime is desiring to discuss it at all.

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Earlier:

quote:

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Because nature put balls between my legs and hence I am a potential killer with a dick looking for prey.

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Written by you, not me. You brought your masculine accoutrements into the discussion, not me.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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WingNut:
What makes me male is organs and the introduction of male organs in this discussion was made a long time ago by someone other than me.
And I was referring to the predictable attack on my "sad little ego", in any case.

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Yes, "sad little ego" a very, very male phrase for me to use. Totally not like a proper female for me to pull the whole "sad little ego" thing. Sorry, I forgot my place.

Anyway, enough of addressing your ego - sad or otherwise.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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posted by Mr. Magoo: If dreaming of unthinkable acts of "revenge" on men who've done nothing wrong gets you through the long and lonely night, have at it.

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I just hope everyone's clapping hands will be warmed up for the next time someone similarly shares their fantasies of jailhouse retribution, strange goings-on in the showers, etc. Might as well indulge everyone's anger, eh?

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quote:

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Originally posted by chubbybear:
Hm. Perhaps ironic is the wrong term. While I don't want to contribute to thread drift, this term, originally an AA term, meant a forehand or backhand slap to another male, as opposed to a full punch. It was mean (albeit in a sexist way) to "punch like a womyn." It does not refer to hitting womyn.

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Ahh, soo... thanks for the clarification. That kind of changes the meaning, although I'm sure the phrase is used in the other sense of its meaning too.

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Totally not like a proper female for me to pull the whole "sad little ego" thing. Sorry, I forgot my place.

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Listen or accept that you are an enabler of violence against women.

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Her fantasies are about reprisals and primal justice, sure, but only against those who commit violence against women.

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Then I guess it's getting worse. Now it's about just grabbing a guy:

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Yes, rape is a male issue. I have said for years more would be done about it if every time some woman was grabbed and raped the Hit Squad went out, grabbed a guy and castrated him.

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you have just deliberately trivialized the hearfelt anguish and yes, rage that women experience when they are violated or witness such acts.

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I'm not trivializing this anger. I'm suggesting that others feel anger as well. Women don't have any kind of exclusive ownership of anger.

If I were to angrily suggest some "jailhouse justice" for rapists (and it's been suggested on babble many, many times) I'd probably be told that that kind of thinking has no place here. What is it that makes this any different?

Yes, I have thought that the only way to make rape as much a male issue as a female issue is to do "tit for tat". Women are often randomly chosen..simply because they are women. If men were randomly chosen each time a woman was randomly chosen and raped...then rape would be a male problem and I would be willing to bed a loonie something SIGNIFICANT would be done, and done dam' fast.

Still and all, I am sorry if you have been upset. I admit it was my intention to have men who consider themselves "nice" be shaken by some small example of the reality of what rape means to women. I did not have you in mind, particularly, and if you are deeply upset I apologize. But only for upsetting you.

I do not apologize for being honest, I do not apologize for being deeply emotionally committed to doing WHATEVER it will take to stop the on-going brutalization of women and I will go to hell before I will apologize for detesting not only rapists but those men who sit , just sit, and say nothing when hatred is paraded.

Some of the responses make me think there are men posting here who really don't know why women are offended by "well I'd prefer a blowjob but a hamburger will have to do " or the chicken bone shit. Gosh, it was just a joke, why get so bent out of shape, eh?

My amygdala and posterior cingulate go into total permanent overdrive when I learn of an infant of two months shredded internally by an adult man. And I will never apologize for that.

With that particular rapist I think I would probably use my filleting knife vigourously.

In this safe place, we have disclosed and revealed our deepest feelings about being the target of specific and random male actions of violence against us and other women. We have shown the ugly, unladylike side of our anger and our pain. And your response is that you don't want to hear this and you don't want to read this.

Earlier in the thread, someone said - How do you know if a man is a potential molester / harasser /abuser /rapist ? They don't wear signs, do they?

Anne gave the powerful example of a man offering her grand-daughter a candy in return for a kiss. Without going into an insufferable po-mo deconstruction of that whole dynamic, just stop, and think about this for awhile.

This is simple, really. The need to interact with another human being is basic. My dad now lives in a long-term care facility. His neighbour, a craggy octonagerian, immobilized by a variety of ailments, including dementia, gazes upon me with great longing when I hug and kiss my Dad. So, I have started gently touching his shoulder and I caress him with kind words.

But deeply ingrained misogyny has corrupted most interactions; the simple expression of the need to be touched by an innocent, beautiful child becomes the site for displaying male power. And you may whine and proclaim that man who offered a girl a candy for a kiss is not a pervert and how dare we make these assumptions?

quote:

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"Why me? I'm not one of those .... Why threaten me because of my gender? Why take out your anger against me?"

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And I am accused of not listening. Not once have I disputed any of that. Not once. I have never asked, "why me?"

I have only asked why some men, people, have a desire to exert such power and control over others? It is all I asked. And I asked it in good faith and with a genuine desire to investigate it. I made no effort, none, ever, to minimize or trivialize anyone else's suffering. I was surprised when it was suggested all men fantasize about rape and I did take exception to that and the person who said it has since retracted it.

So what is so offensive about the issue I have sought to discuss, namely, why some men, people, have a desire to exert such power and control over others?

Writer says it is because we "live in a culture that *normalizes the day-to-day opression of women.*"

Good. I can accept that. I think I might want to discuss it further but I don't disagree with the basic truth behind it.

But it is the only issue I have made any effort to discuss. And yet here I am accused and condemned.

And I don't listen.

I do listen and I have heard a great deal.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

quote:

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Originally posted by deBeauxOs:
And you may whine and proclaim that man who offered a girl a candy for a kiss is not a pervert and how dare we make these assumptions?

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Even Ted Bundy worked at a Seattle crisis counselling clinic. (Ann Rule befriend him there - they worked overnight together two times a week. One of the U.S.'s most famous true-crime writers - and sheriff's granddaughter - didn't know who she was buddies with, and wrote "The Stranger Beside Me" in part as an exploration of that fact.)

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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posted by James: No one here has made any such "proclamation", not that I can see. .

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But I beg to disagree about

quote:

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Any adult who offers any child a reward for a kiss is, at best, disturbed

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[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

quote:

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Originally posted by deBeauxOs:
In this safe place, we have disclosed and revealed our deepest feelings about being the target of specific and random male actions of violence against us and other women. We have shown the ugly, unladylike side of our anger and our pain. And your response is that you don't want to hear this and you don't want to read this.

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I've hesitated joining in, partly due to the confusion of some of the posts (now made worse with the removal of several earlier messages), partly because I didn't want to add yet another man's voice to the discussion. However, now that it looks like the discussion has gone down the defensive, literalist, universalist road, what the heck, eh?

Someone shared her deep anger, and was drawn into a debate over whether or not she supported vigilanteism. Someone talked about the impossibility of knowing when women will be attacked, and by whom, and was drawn into a debate over just how "evil" anyone can be, regardless of gender. And now, someone who felt targeted because of the penis between his legs, has removed most of his earlier posts, making it impossible to sort through the comments, arguments and accusations thrown about here.

Oh, I know, these weren't men as a whole, just individuals acting individually. Yet cumulatively, they really did manage to derail (or at least dominate) a discussion about rape/violence against women.

quote:

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Oh, I know, these weren't men as a whole, just individuals acting individually. Yet cumulatively, they really did manage to derail (or at least dominate) a discussion about rape/violence against women.

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Anyway, thanks for bucking the trend. I'm glad you posted what you did.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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Earlier in the thread, someone said - How do you know if a man is a potential molester / harasser /abuser /rapist ? They don't wear signs, do they?

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And if so, then there is no future under which a man can act and talk as though women need not fear him and that interactions are not charged with this.

Now you can say that there's a huge cultural edifice that well-intentioned men have a responsibility to help combat. One that encourages, at its fringes, acts that keep women in line. But even if you cut down this edifice, you're still left with the basic motivations and opportunities from which the edifice spang.

And I think that's what underlies some of the conflicts in this thread. A lot of women are essentially pointing out that all the men they see have opportunities and motives, particularly enhanced by our culture. And the men are objecting, well, they aren't planning on taking the opportunity. So the women say, that's kind of not relevant to their overall experience.

quote:

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We have shown the ugly, unladylike side of our anger and our pain. And your response is that you don't want to hear this and you don't want to read this.

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No, my response is that this isn't considered acceptable anywhere else on babble, so it shouldn't be here either.

It's possible to "share your anger" without devolving into sickening revenge fantasies, or for that matter, fantasies of attacking innocent people.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with "ladylike", so for fuck's sake, don't even go there. This is not about expecting women to be sweet and pure. This is about what is or is not tolerated on babble, and with the exception of Anne's desire to grab men off the street and castrate them, this sort of vigilante-porn isn't. If you can tell me why we should start glorifying violent revenge, please do, but please also make it consistent. I don't want to read on some other thread that it's "not progressive" to wish that some rapist would be sodomized or murdered in prison. Either it is, or it isn't.

quote:

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A lot of women are essentially pointing out that all the men they see have opportunities and motives, particularly enhanced by our culture.

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No, mandos, that is a complete and utter misreading of what I - as at least one woman on this thread - have written. What I've written, essentially, is there for all to read, using the words I've chosen to use. Perhaps they are worth re-reading, if comprehension is a problem.

And so it follows that, at least in the case of what I've posted here, the body of your latest message is in no way constructive to this discussion.

Gosh, putting words in others' mouths must be so much fun. And that a man is doing it to women in a thread on the feminism forum is extra cute! Adorable!

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

quote:

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No, mandos, that is a complete and utter misreading of what I - as at least one woman on this thread - have written. What I've written, essentially, is there for all to read, using the words I've chosen to use. Perhaps they are worth re-reading, if comprehension is a problem.

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Have I misunderstood the male posters then too?

I mean "opportunities and motives" not in a personal sense---which may be the source of your discomfort. ie, it's been clearly stated that a lot of women have to live with the threat of violence even if a specific man doesn't intend any such thing. Then what I said has to logically follow, but you may have misread *me*.

quote:

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And so it follows that, at least in the case of what I've posted here, the body of your latest message is in no way constructive to this discussion.

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quote:

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Gosh, putting words in others' mouths must be so much fun. And that men are doing it to women in a thread on the feminism forum is extra cute! Adorable!

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You are always free to interpret what you read from others on this thread in the worst way possible. I rarely resort to jabs: but I've come to expect it from you.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: Mandos ]

quote:

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Publius: Objecting to being labelled a potential rapist is not defending violence and oppression.

Wingnut: Right. Like I tried to put you in your place. Hardly. In fact, throughout this thread, the effort seems to have been putting me in mine.

Wingnut again: And yet here I am accused and condemned.

Mandos: And while objectively women must treat all men as potential risks, if this is necessarily to be held against all men participating in this thread, then it makes it impossible for men to contribute a perspective from their own point of view.

Mandos again: ... the only thing that you in particular would see as being constructive is complete and unconditional agreement with the specific perspective you are presenting and robotic repetition of the way in which you stated it.

WingNut again: Well if I knew the way to be heard was to begin by misrepresenting what was said and grovelling, I could have done that.

---

To all of you: I've asked before and I'll ask again. I think I and a number of other women on this thread have gone well beyond our comfort level to share personal experiences and to relate our everyday realities. Please think about and respond to what we have said, rather than assuming we're accusing you.

Don't you see that your defensiveness just dismisses what we've said? You're ignoring the substance of a lot of posts.

I'm not accusing any of you of being rapists. I'm not even saying you're potential rapists. I'm saying that I can't tell by looking at a man if he's a rapist or not, and I know that because I've been betrayed by people I trust. I'm saying that men as well as women have a responsibility to address the issue of rape and sexual assault, and I, along with others, have openly talked about how you, as men, can do so.

Your reactions to women's posts seem to be that we're not allowing you space to be heard, that we're silencing you by saying you can't understand, and that you not being allowed to contribute to the discussion. This is the reality that women live with all the time. And yet, we've kept responding to you, even in the face of some pretty broad statements. And I've been silenced quite thoroughly by dismissive, aggressive and manipulative men, in a wide variety of contexts. I love babble, and I love the feminist forum, and I don't want to be dismissed or ignored here.

We have given you ways to make change. We have given you things to think about. We have shared stories in the hope that this will help you understand. But all you're doing is accusing us of not allowing you to participate in the debate.

And yet, you don't understand why we get upset and angry when we share a difficult story and the main reaction is to seize on a phrase like "owning the problem" to engage in a semantic debate. Do you have any conception about how hard it was for me to put my story on a public message board, even under the cloak of an anonymous nickname?

Don't you see that by ignoring what we have shared with you, you are silencing us? Can't you understand how hurtful this is? How personal and wrenching?

I'm asking, with all sincerity, for you to go back again through this thread. There are some incredible posts. However many times it takes. Read the posts that women have wrote, and imagine you are a woman who has been hurt, assaulted, harassed. Empathize.

Please.

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: Tehanu ]

[ 20 September 2005: Message edited by: Tehanu ]

I expect it is very difficult for some guys to find out how deep our anger is and how, like a river running to the ocean, the channel deepens with each insult, each put-down, each nasty joke, each everyday incidence of open hatred; and all those ordinary events of marginalization gather in that ocean and remain, unforgotten and unforgiven.

Frustration can lead people down some very dark alleys. Magoo, I'm not going to use my filleting knife on you; I haven't used it on anyone, ever. I have apologized to you for being the one who wrote something which deeply upset you. I wasn't aiming at you, or at any person who has written in this discussion. But when I learn of yet another absolutely horrible example of the on-going war against women, yes, I quite honestly wish I could...

I suspect it is difficult to learn that many of us are so used to appeasing men that we often don't even know we are doing it. And, to me, (and I speak only for me, not for all women), feeling that on the feminist forum, in a discussion of rape=power=rape=power I have to use only gentle language in order to continue to appease men who consider themselves to be "nice men".

I find it sad, and objectionable, and very very indicative of the general muffling and muzzling of women that some of the women who have dared be absolutely bluntly honest are being told to be "nice". We are quite sick and tired of being told in what language and with what vocabulary we are allowed to register our discontent with the dangers facing women, children, and particularly little girls.

Now now, there there don't worry your pretty little head about it, if you're nice, and if you speak softly and gently some gallant knight will ride up on a white horse and slay that nasty dragon for you.

Excuse me, Sirs, the knight is long overdue and the fucking dragons are everywhere in the kingdom! Some of them are living in this very castle and even as we speak, kind sir, one of them is devouring my left leg. Might one hope, sir, you will do something about it?

So, faced with the fact all the Knights in the kingdom were busy watching the pages polish the armour and were occupied with pointing out those areas insufficiently buffed, the Princess pulled her leg from the dragon's jaws, swore like a navvy, grabbed the closest available weapon and went at the leviathan herself.

And Sir Witherdick on his return from the spa looked at the splattered bits and pieces of what had been the most dangerous dragon in six counties and said Tsk Tsk, not too ladylike my dear, do you have my doublet embroidered yet and if not why not.

Thank you to all the men who have chosen not to be dickheads. Amazing that you feel threatened when it appears we are not grateful that you have chosen to be decent. So, yes, we are grateful. We might be more grateful if you were doing something about those other arstles. It is not enough to be "nice", not enough to have chosen not to be a monster. That is passive. You need to actively DO something about the fuckwads.

I think of MADD. Out here, for a long time, it was considered FUNNY to drive when drunk. People, mostly men, actually made jokes about Well, I've had more experience driving blasted than driving sober so I do it quite well, har har.

And MADD said ENOUGH. They simply showed the photo's of the victims of drunk driving.

In a remarkably short time people were saying "It ain't funny, McGee.". And now there is actually some shame attached to a conviction.

WAR (women against rape) painted sidewalks where assaults had taken place and in many municipalities officials were so upset they invoked bylaws to stop the practise.

And now someone will ask me to prove that. And I won't even bother trying. You disprove it. I am sick of being sidetracked by "provide link" , or "provide proof" or "cite research".

LOOK AROUND YOU. Look at the billboards, look at the TV ads, look at the magazine illustrations, the "comedy" shows.

And as long as you sit on your progressive duffs and do nothing about the people who look like you but are monsters, well, you can hardly expect us to swoon with gratitude or recognize you as a prince among men. Because if you look like the rest of the pack and never stand up to stand out from the pack then it's the old thing of lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

I truly do believe men rape because they can. And I know if I DID indulge my fantasy and cut off some jerks dick he'd find something else, a coke bottle or a hockey stick or... something.. because it isn't about sex, it isn't about penis, it isn't about overwhelming lust, it is about abuse of power.

When you and I are doing work of equal value to our society and you get a buck and I get seventy cents forgive me if I think that is economic rape. When I look at the government and see a phalanx of white male aging faces forgive me if I think it political rape. When I count the number of Supreme Court judges and see so few women and so many priviledged white wrinklefaced fuckers, forgive me if I feel little hope for justice.

When I read the well written, carefully crafted, fully honest, totally logical and PATIENT posts from women in this shitstorm today I am made proud, and very priviledged to have had the opportunity to see courage. And when I read some of the responses from a very few of the non-women I can only shake my head, sigh, and wonder what, in the name of anything which might be holy, we have to do to get a space of our own where we don't have to appease, appease, appease.

And we appease because it keeps them "nice". And we want them "nice" because when they aren't nice they are really capable of being horrible. And as long as the "nice" guys are busy telling women how we should think, fantasize, write, talk, express, and explain then they are too occupied and even pre-occupied to have any time to confront the monsters who might one day smash their own daughters face to pulp.

Should that happen we will be there for her. We, the angry, enraged, furious and impolite will provide Rape Relief services, will provide Feminist Counselling, will probably provide the medical care she needs. And we'll put her back together. And she will never again look at her daddy or her brother quite the same way as she did before the monsters got hold of her.

That is the heartbreaking part. While you bicker with us and do nothing to beat back the dragons the little princesses get savaged and then they can no longer climb on daddys knee and feel safe. Their posterior cingulates will forever hold the horror, and their ocean of life will be contaminated irrevocably. And they will cry because they have lost that innocent trust that daddy will make it right and keep them safe.

God, guys, my grandbabies are never going to have to ask me why I didn't at least TRY to keep them safe. I'll go down kicking and scrapping, cursing and swearing to keep them safe.

and my grief is rooted in the knowledge that I CANNOT KEEP THEM SAFE.

Chubbybear: "Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but is the feminist forum being hijacked once again by a bunch of guys shouting their opinions again, hm?"

Tehanu: "Word, chubbybear"

mersh: "Oh, I know, these weren't men as a whole, just individuals acting individually. Yet cumulatively, they really did manage to derail (or at least dominate) a discussion about rape/violence against women."

faith: "welcome to the feminism forum"

What really happened:

A man, RP, initiated the thread with what no one disgarees was an offensive title. There were a number of responses that were respectful and then Anne Cameron, not me nor any other male, initated the thread drift with a comment about "bitch stomping."

Me, I was shocked such a thing went on and wondered aloud what sort of societal sickness creates such monsters.

A discussion ensued. A discussion that involved Lard tunderin' jeesus, faith and fed and was derailed by a member of the Too Feminist For You Crew, Chubbybear as he dismissed the arguments and attacked "a bunch of guys shouting their opinions again" who at this point consisted of Lard Tunderin' jeesus.

But I am the bad guy who derailed this thread. And then you enter with word, Chubbybear, tossing your own hand grenade after reading the thread title and none of the ensuing discussion.

And clearly you have not read a word I have said as I have not disagreed with a substantive issue nor have I trivialized anything.

In fact, much of the discussion I wanted to have has been said but not in any coherent fashion because the Too Feminist For You Crew has been too busy attacking me for what? I have no freakin' idea.

But here, here is what has been said that I think is of importance not that I expect you are still reading:

Writer: "we live in a culture that *normalizes the day-to-day opression of women.*"

Lard Tunderin' Jeesus: "All social discretion and empathy programs are overwritten by a pervasive antisocial impulse to brutality."

faith: "I think that the message that often accompanies the violence such as the 'cool' guy is the violent guy, the successful use of violence as a cause for celebration, the immediate use of violence when confronted with a problem is as big or even bigger a problem than the violence itself."

fast_twitch_neurons: "The key point here is that the capacity for empathy makes up most of our identities. Empathy is seeing other people as concious and emotional agents, and being able to feel their emotions to some extent.

My own opinion is that some of the analyses posted on this thread are making the issue too complicated. I actually think the issue with most rapists might just be that they don't feel empathy or at least not as much, and as such the woman's concern is largely irrelevent next to his sexual cravings/addiction/pathology."

We could have been discussing these issues.

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Wingnut, I already said that I appreciated that you were posting more in the direction of looking at power and women's oppression, including in the context of bullying, but that's gone? In the most sincere, nicest way, I'd like to ask if you'd be willing to explain why?

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I believe, as has been said here by others, that the pathology of rape and the pathology of bullying if they are not the same are very similar and I would like to understand them.

I attempted to persue this discussion in good faith.

I have been told I am not listening. But I have seen one person come in here, dismiss a discussion and the participants, and be supported in that effort.

To me, that was bullying which is why I have persisted.

You know, I have been here on babble a long, long time and not yet have I been accused of being anti-feminist or not an ally. And anyone one of you could have contacted me by PM and indicated what, precisely, was wrong with my conduct or the discussion I was hoping to have.

That didn't happen. Instead I became like an enemy to be ridiculed and dismissed and made to feel, well, as an outsider.

I don't feel like an ally today.

I will excuse myself from this thread and this topic bid you goodnight and see you tomorrow in babbleland on another thread and another topic.

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It seems reasonable to infer that coitus also occasionally provokes or accelerates single ovulations, thus impugning some rhythm methods of contraception. But there seems no very good evidence that rape induces ovulation.

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Originally posted by anne cameron:
I truly do believe men rape because they can.

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I have not argued with you. I have not named you or demeaned you or your contribution. I have obviously upset the hell out of you.

Perhaps a good nights rest will help you see that we are , in fact, saying much the same thing. you in your way, and me in my way.

If my way offends you, please understand I don't really care except that it might upset you and cause you to be nasty. And non-women who get nasty often get very nasty, indeed.

Then they abuse the power they have in this society. And when they do it makes old dykes like this one get nasty as all hell, in protest.

I did not derail this thread, I did not hijack it. But I made no attempt whatsoever to appease the sensibilities of the non-women.

Now for the more precise details. Why do you think women get more traumatized from rape than men might from a physical beating, or even gay male rape or analogues? One time at a job a customer grabbed my ass, I let it pass, my female coworkers were shocked at how calm I was and told me they would have told the customer to fuck off. The only thing on my mind was "typical customer abuse, I better not get fired for it by complaining." The only emotional analogue among men for severity of emotional repercussions of rape is paternity fraud. Notice a trend? Our emotional responses are hardwired with a supreme goal being optimal reproduction, and a loss of control over reproductive freedom logically leading to negative emotions. A simpler example being the fact men feel more pain when kicked in the balls than when kicked elsewhere. Another good example, though just anecdotal, the first time I ever read a graphic book passage about castration (Kim Stanley Robinson, Years of Rice and Salt, around page 30) I almost fainted, I had to find a seat and close the book. I tried to read it again a few minutes later, and I the same thing happened again. I suspect a similar thing might happen to many women if they saw a 'artistically-competent' rape scene in a movie. So in conclusion, I highly doubt women evolved to be more receptive to rape sperm.

Anne Cameron,

Good analogy with MADD. Do you know what ever happened of WAR? I hope I don't come off too badly asking this, but I've never heard of Women Against Rape.

Wingnut,

I am sorry for my part in letting this discussion become hostile. It was not my intent.

To understand where I am coming from, I hope you will let me explain just a little.

When Anne Cameron described "bitch stomping", I found the idea of a group of people being able to treat another person in such a way as profoundly disturbing.

That does not mean that I don't find a personal attack, an assault or rape, equally disturbing. But for whatever reason, I always think that in a group there would be at least one person who would recognize the wrong, who would have a shred of compassion and empathy, and put a stop to it. I know that is naive. My own knowledge tells me otherwise -- that there is such a thing as a "pack mentality".

Also, I read something earlier this year that has really stuck with me. Harpers Magazine printed an excerpt of interviews with jailed Hutus who had participated in the genocide of Tutsis in Rwanda.

They spoke about how going in to the bush was like just another day in the fields, at work, only better because the day was shorter and the work easier. They spoke about how good those days were for them. They spoke how they lived better, had more to eat, were wealthier as they looted the bodies and homes of their victims. One spoke of how he would go home and make love to his wife.

They spoke about how their job was somehow less satisfying when their victims stopped resisting; stop pleading for mercy.

From their descriptions, from what they said, for the first time in my life, I think, I came to understand clearly what is meant by the term the "banality of evil" as used to describe the beuracratic routine of the holocaust.

That violence can be so routine is absolutely horrifying to me. Yet I do know that violence is routine for many women and children every single day. Not just in Canada but throughout the world and that rape is often used as a weapon of war.

But not only. Boys and men are also victims of violence, at home and in war, everyday and most often from other boys and other men.

This does not subtract from or seek to minimize in anyway the realities that women face everyday of their lives in a culture that is very often hostile to them and seeks through marketing and mass media culture to objectify and commodify female sexuality.

I suppose what comes into my mind is that in our society we will condemn and imprison rapists and child molesters. But the very same pathology that allows for rape, also allows for torturers, for brutal riot squads and prison guards, for executioners, for the head masters of residential schools and orphanages, for soldiers who kill and rape in the name of God, Queen and Country.

I remember reading about torturers in Chile who after a day of inflicting incredible pain upon victims of the regime, would go home to their families to be loving fathers and husbands respected in their communities.

In other words, given the right circumstance, are any of us immune from the banality of evil? Are we all capable of such violence if we had such authority and control, taken or conferred, over another? And if not, what sets us apart?

[ 21 September 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]

The war is already here, at home. Women and children don't have to wait for a Rwanda. It's in our beds now - or at least it can be, at any time.

Every day, there's a newspaper article, or a friend's confession about being abused, or an alert about a missing woman ... a missing child, or a helpful reminder from male - and female - family members, friends, strangers, authority figures, that we are the targets. We are not safe. The war is already here. Permission to act has been granted.

Look at the statistics: How many women say they've been raped in their lives? How many go to the police? How many charges are laid? How many convictions result? There is the window dressing of justice, but behind that thin window lies a chasm of unaddressed and unacknowledged pain and oppression.

[ 21 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

We all have frustrations, we all experience a string of unwanted, unwelcome incidents each day, and how many of us were brought up to know how to deal with the emotions which result?

I believe rape=power=rape and I believe men rape because they can. And I have little or no comprehension of what is going on in the head of a rapist. I know I have been enraged at times in my life and I have met aggression with my own aggression but never once did it occur to me to include sexual abuse as a "weapon" in my arsenal.

I think Iunderstand some small bit of why in Rwanda, Bosnia, etc., women and kids participated in the "ethnic cleansing"...when lunatics are running around chopping people up the best camoflauge might be to run around chopping people up in the hope the choppers will not consider you a target...but I hope I would not be capable of doing that.

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I'm not discounting what you have to say at all, but to be fair it's not like we treat crimes against women as unimportant, while tackling other crimes head on

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Bullshit! I am completely calling BullShit on this one. Magoo, do you have any idea of the way rape victims are treated? Do you have any idea what type of questions they ask you? Do you have any idea how fucking humiliating it is to sit in a room with a few big policemen while you are taped telling your story and the uncomfort you feel having to recount the story when, in the back of your head, you are wondering if these cops are getting off on your pain and humiliation? They treat crimes against women as just a fucking important do they Magoo? Bullshit! A guy whose store was ripped is likely to have this taken care of far quicker than a victim of rape is. Please. Spare me the bullshit. You have no idea what it is like to be a rape victim, clearly no idea how the system works, and clearly no sympathy or empathy with the victims of rape. I say this last one because from the beginning, and as per your usual style, you jump into threads that are of no interest to you, except to piss people off.

I don't know why you do these things - derail threads into debates about trivial and often semantic issues, but you do and I highly resent your telling me, as a rape victim, how the fuck crimes against us are treated the same.

FYI, I was raped in may of 2004 by a very visible person. It's now Sept. 2005 and not one fucking thing has been done except to have me on camera, talking porn to some cops.

Anne, brilliant posts. You are my hero.

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Please. Spare me the bullshit. You have no idea what it is like to be a rape victim, clearly no idea how the system works, and clearly no sympathy or empathy with the victims of rape.

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While you're looking inside my brain, can you see where I left the spare house key?

Seems to me that sexual assault is a little different from, say, robbery, in a number of ways:

1. People don't typically smash the window on a store in order to come inside and buy something. This means that if someone smashes the window on a store, we can be fairly objectively certain they're not a customer, but more likely a thief. In this sense, the difference between a customer and a thief is that smashed window.

On the other hand, people have sex all the time (BWAGA notwithstanding). The difference between sex and sexual assault is consent, and unlike the broken window, it's not a solid object that can be photographed and shown to a judge or jury. It's not likely to have been written down or recorded in any way. As a result, the issue almost inevitably boils down to "he said/she said". Do you not suppose this makes it just a bit harder to successfully prosecute than a burglary?

2. I doubt that most business owners would feel in any way violated or intruded upon if asked to provide details of how they discovered the burglary, what kind of alarm system they use, where they usually keep their deposits, etc.

On the other hand, it's perfectly understandable that a woman would feel violated or intruded upon if asked to provide details of a sexual assault. I certainly wouldn't suggest otherwise. But that's not the doing of the justice system so much as the nature of the crime in our society. I don't see how investigators can secure a conviction without asking necessary questions.

3. Unlike burglary, a sexual assault trial is highly charged in both directions. If a person is erroneously convicted of burglary that's certainly a miscarriage of justice, but they won't be stigmatized in nearly the same way as if they're erroneously convicted of sexual assault. It's unfortunately necessary to be just as vigorous in the defense of the accused as we are in the attempt to prosecute. Certainly one can look upon this as being "difficult" or "combative" toward the victim, but to do any less would be to deny the (officially) innocent accused his rights.

Pure conjecture like this:

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wondering if these cops are getting off on your pain and humiliation?

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and this:

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A guy whose store was ripped is likely to have this taken care of far quicker than a victim of rape is.

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... I cannot answer, since they're just that: conjecture.

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And Magoo, please, leave me alone on this. I have stated the truth, you have posited a fallacy.

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Uh, sorry, but you can't broadside me, then demand that I "leave you alone". If you wanted peace and quiet from me you had it before you posted this. The optics of getting too aggressive in my own defense would be poor, so I'll be as polite as I can when I say that the fact that you've been sexually assaulted doesn't afford you any special right to rip a strip off me and then demand that I not respond.

stargazer, thank you for your bravery and honesty. i don't know what it will take for some men to stop talking and really start listening. maybe your words will help.

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I know that in the past, sexual assault was routinely "poohpoohed", but with changes to the law, changes to police procedure, and an overall change in the public perception of sexual assault I have no reason to believe that we're still living in the 50's.

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Yeah, no reason to believe what those who've recently experienced the system might have to say about it. Might as well happily hum along to the contented sound of your own ignorance. Why stop? Why bother doing your own research, if you're so moved to post in a thread like this? Why not simply keep spouting trite dribble ... because you can!

I didn't cry after I was assaulted in 1999. I cried after I spoke with police about it. Not because the horror of the assault came back to me. Because the police officers of the specially trained sexual assault squad had very effectively victimized and humiliated me in a way I hadn't been in the first place.

Let's see: questioning my motives [check], asking me what I wore [check], fixating on what was "abnormal" about my behaviour at the time of the incident [check], essentially calling me a liar [check], telling me I had no right to tell others about what I had gone through, because it hadn't been "proven" yet [check]. 1999. 1950. That's 49 years later!

And I haven't even got to the reactions of those outside of the criminial justice system, and how many other supposedly sensitive and politicized people tried to shut me and my partner up and erase our experience (just like you did with your last post). When I say people, I mean men, with the notable exception of one idiot woman.

Let's put it this way: one feminist judge who I highly respect told me in no uncertain terms that I should *not* go to the police, as did a feminist lawyer. This advice was based on what they see going on with women, rape, and the criminal justice system. Somehow, I think they know more than you do, Magoo. Call me crazy. Then they were proven right when I decided to go anyway. Imagine!

[ 21 September 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

She's right.
You're wrong.

What you wrote is oppression by flawed logic.
And it's mean.
And it's ignorant.
And it demonstrates precisely what this thread is about, and how power is abused and used against women.

I had thought better of you.
Now pick up your shiny little word sword and slash at me. Attack me personally, impugne my ethics , cast aspersions on my morality and wax eloquent with sophomoric quips.

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Yeah, no reason to believe what those who've recently experienced the system might have to say about it.

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When did one person's experience define a whole system. That's like one dad, getting shafted over a support settlement, declaring the entirety of family law a "sham". Would we take his word for it, since he's just been through it?

I doubt it. Same thing here. I'm absolutely NOT telling anyone about their own lived experience, but their lived experience does not make them some kind of expert on the system. Surely you understand this.

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Why bother doing your own research, if you're so moved to post in a thread like this?

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Well, my first comment on this thread, and the comment under scrutiny now, was "it's not like we treat crimes against women as unimportant, while tackling other crimes head on."

I don't see that anyone's response to that has demonstrated that we, as a society, find sexual assault to be "unimportant". If it's so unimportant, why do we spend so much money on awareness programs, training, hotlines, posters, shelters, etc.? You may say we don't spend enough, but you certainly can't argue that we spend more when the crime is burglary. Ever been to a "locked means locked" seminar? Of course not. So how is it you feel my relatively innocuous statement is in any way over the line, or that it's been somehow debunked by someone saying "you're wrong"?

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and how they tried to shut me up and erase my experience (just like you did with your last post).

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I cannot "silence" anyone on this board, nor am I trying to. I'm suggesting that there are reasons outside of apathy or misogyny for why sexual assault is harder to prove than robbery, and suddenly I'm silencing you? If so it could only be due to some commitment on your part to believing that it IS only because of apathy or misogyny. You don't have to believe what I say of course, but it hardly silences you, and playing the "mean man silences women in the Feminism thread" is only going to make me more tenacious. If I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, I'll usually opt for "Ok then, let's go for it".

Disagree all you want, but once you start impugning malice and indifference to what I post here then expect to be challenged. And know that if were in any other forum you'd be challenged much less politely. As it is, I'd like it noted that I'm not telling anyone about their experience, I'm expressing my opinion about public policy and public opinion. Nobody has any special rights or authority in that regard, nor are there any "lines" for me to cross. If my opinion of public policy and opinion doesn't align with your personal experience of it then that's certainly noteworthy, but it hardly demonstrates that I'm wrong, full stop, followed by bad/uncaring/insensitive/jerky, full stop.

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She's right.
You're wrong.

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That seems to be the length and breadth of the rebuttal. That, plus home field advantage, means I'm unlikely to do better than a draw here, eh? I mean, even just responding to accusations, instead of "listening" to someone telling me what I do or don't care about, what I can or can't know about and what I do or don't think is already putting me dangerously close to being a misogynist, isn't it? I mean, one more response from me and then it'll be clear what kind of monster I am.

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What you wrote is oppression by flawed logic.
And it's mean.
And it's ignorant.
And it demonstrates precisely what this thread is about, and how power is abused and used against women.

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What I wrote is my opinion.
And I'm entitled to an opinion.
And it's not about anyone's personal, subjective experience.
And it was in response to being broadsided on a thread I'd left alone.

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when men argue that it is all the same for men and women and that men suffer violence too it is disingenuous to say the least.
Men do not suffer violence because they are men. Most men encounter violence because they choose to engage another man violently, leaving aside the violence perpetrated against children.

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For example, it is worth noting that the subjects of torture, male and females, are often both subject to rape or other sexual abuse.

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Women encounter male violence because they are women.

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Okay, but is it just because they are women or is it because women are perceived as physically weaker in a society that is permissive towards violence against women?

I ask this because, it seems bullying or rape is an excercise of physical power to force submission of another's will and because there is an actual or implied leniency toward, or a condoning of, violence.

For example, going back to Magoo's last comment, he fails to recognize that if a man chose to go out with two strangers and have a few drinks and was then beaten and robbed, no one would be saying he "asked for it." He wouldn't be interrogated over his spending habits and the criminal act would not be mitigated if it turned out he was an impulse spender. No one would say, "well, going out with two men he should have known they would want his money." And an argument like, "well, he opened his wallet so it was like he wanted me to have it", would be an admission of guilt rather than a statement of defence.

So, arguably, when it comes to sexual consent, there is a deliberate blurring of the lines that does not necessarily exist in cases of money and property.

Which comes to the age old argument of women as property.

In all cases of genocide or war, there is a requirement to dehumanize the enemy. To make them something else. Monsters, subhuman, vermin, whatever.

There is nothing less human than property that can be bought, traded, sold and disposed of at will and without regard.

Could this concept of women as property, of entire peoples as property in the form of slavery, be at the root of both violence against women and society's failure to yet eradicate rape and violence as a social evil?

Maybe if men actually made up part of that society or something, but...

I've had about enough of being pushed into a corner. I suggested that society treats sexual assault seriously and nothing more.. I'm not going to sit around idly and be cast as an insensitive misogynist for it.

[ 21 September 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]

Frankly, I don't ever "start listening" to anyone unless their also willing to give me the same benefit of the doubt. Out of politeness, I may refrain from arguing with someone in pain: but if they want me to respect their points, at some point they're going to have to agree that I might have a different perspective on it, and that perspective, honestly delivered, might indeed not be something they want to hear, no matter how well-intentioned I am.

It looks like there's a lot of women in pain on this thread, so out of politeness I won't participate in this discussion any more. But despite their pain, I can't also take the discussion too seriously, because I can't take any discussion seriously that isn't willing to respond to me in an intellectually honest way. It's hard for me to see how "listening" in this context means anything other than "full agreement with the entirety of the interpretation." I can't lie: I won't ever give that.

Since my honest attempts at interpreting what others are saying and giving my own opinions on the matter are instead met with accusations of "putting words in people's mouths" when the same is done to me and instead met with cries of "when will men start listening?" when I have indeed listened, it's clear that discussion is basically fruitless on this matter for the time being.