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Can you change the thinking of a gang of fairly conservative, careerist-minded graduate students so they would give up one end-of-term dinner and donate the money saved to a good cause? The suggestion was met with some hostility but auntie has some ideas on how this situation could be handled.

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I'm anything but conservative or conformist, but I'm rather wary of people who look askance at "l'esprit de la fête". Dour puritanism has never helped the left.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

Back in the 60's the equivalent would have been to invite a negro to lunch. Are we doing it feed the Black person or to show how liberated we ourselves are? "Gee, I'm not a racist, I had lunch with a Black person. Look at me."

Although some graduate programmes are very demanding, students still usually have greater flexibility in terms of time they can volunteer than people working 9 to 5 do, especially if the latter have children.

Without question, graduate programs run on fear and self-consciousness and, hence, conformity. I think that's almost a condition of that stage in one's training. One is at one's most obsequious, and that has everything to do with the purpose and structure of graduate programs and the gawdawful dissertation-supervisor/committee process. I don't remember its making me feel more competitive, but I certainly believe that it destroys many people's ability ever to write well or sensibly again. I speak with some authority on that subject.

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Without question, graduate programs run on fear and self-consciousness and, hence, conformity. I think that's almost a condition of that stage in one's training. One is at one's most obsequious, and that has everything to do with the purpose and structure of graduate programs and the gawdawful dissertation-supervisor/committee process. I don't remember its making me feel more competitive, but I certainly believe that it destroys many people's ability ever to write well or sensibly again. I speak with some authority on that subject.

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I think that might depend on the department. My experience was that I and my fellow students were much more conformist as undergrads (between end of term projects, weekly assignments, labs, and studying for 70% finals there wasn't time for much of anything but jumping through the hoops). Then as a grad student there was suddenly lots of freedom (quite common for master's students to change their thesis topic on just a whim, and because there were almost no classes you could always find a bit of free time to get involved in issues ... though the months of actually writing up the thesis is usually nose-to-the-grindstone stuff). As well, because the prof's want to put their name on any paper you write (the good ones only as last author), I found they went out of their way to be encouraging and flexible. Having TA's and RA's helped too ... there was actually some spare cash for beer and the like. A lot of us only became politically active during graduate studies...first time we had the freedom to do so.

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It seems pointless to me to try to shame others into virtuous acts;

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I didn't get the impression that Trying Hard was trying to coerce anybody to make a charitable contribution. Sounds more like she made a "suggestion", to which a polite 'no' would have sufficed.

If it turns out that the former is true, then my advice is to give up the goal of persuading them to contribute to a worthy cause and chalk it up to experience, and if the latter is true then perhaps the writer should work on developing relationships, mending fences, appealing to people in a different way?

Edited to fix a missed metaphor.

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]

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fossilnut - I always like a quote I once heard (may have been Churchill). 'There is nothing more empty than untried virtue'. Otherwise, easy to bathe in the glory of tokenism but when the rubber hits the road are you going to be reducing every meal expense by %75 and sending the money to feed the poor? When no one is looking? No one else to pat you on the back?

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Fossilnut, I don't think you have to get nearly that drastic. Most people can do something effective if they get together and decide to scale back the drinking on Friday/Saturday night (1 beer/drink instead of the 3 or 4 beers/drinks each person would normally have) and give the extra money to a Soup Kitchen, Shelter, Free Clinic (USA), or a Church which they know works a lot with the poorer members of the community. Believe it or not, not only would the poor benefit, but so does the person learning to get by on one beer a night. and, Since this is a Discipline, it isn't "Tokanism".

I also used to volunteer at a Soup Kitchen in downtown LA. One can help feed 500 or more people a nutritious lunch working in a Soup Kitchen.

You'd obviously have to find one in your neighborhood that accepts volunteers where you feel comfortable.

There are more things people can do, but the idea is to do something useful, not to wear oneself out.

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Bundtcake - "an insolent attack", "I don't take their views very seriously", "the students in this program are sheepishly conventional", "a gang of fairly conservative, careerist-minded graduate students (who I shudder to think will be our future professors)" -- TH's entire message drips with disdain, thinly-veiled condescension, and an elitist anti-intellectualism. I'd agree with others that shame, blame and dour Puritanism aren't exactly effective tools at transforming or politicizing one's colleagues.

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I see what you mean. Maybe she needed to alter her approach. The "End of Term Dinner" is probably something that everyone looks forward to as the celebration.

It may have been like asking a family to give up their Thanksgiving or their Christmas Dinners for an Abstraction. People will give up part of their weekly partying for people they know, but not something they've really looked forward to for an abstraction.

If you're trying to shame them, it's just not going to work. YOu'll just make them angry and defensive.