babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » Sheila Copps: "Sharia law is a danger to women"

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Sheila Copps: "Sharia law is a danger to women"
Tarek Fatah
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3541

posted 01 January 2005 11:43 AM      Profile for Tarek Fatah   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hello all,

If Sheila Copps can voice her opinion on the Marion Boyd Report permitting sharia in Canada, why are other Canadian Women's groups silent on this issue?

It seems poltical correctness has gone amuck in left/liberal circles while the religous right is having a blast.

Read and reflect.

Tarek Fatah
PS. The article is only available to National Post subscribers, so I have included the entire text.
-------------------------------
December 24, 2004

Sharia law is a danger to women

Sheila Copps
The National Post
http://tinyurl.com/5ac33

The report released this week recommending the use of Sharia law in Islamic family disputes in Ontario should send a shiver down the spines of women across the country.

The report's author, former Ontario attorney-general Marion Boyd, recommends widening the scope of current arbitration legislation allowing consenting parties to avoid court by choosing mediation or arbitration.

Specifically, she advocates broadening the provisions of the provincial Family Law Act to allow religious arbitration including -- but not limited to -- principles drawn from Sharia law.

Boyd has defended her recommendation on the basis that arbitration involving Christians, Jews and Ismaeli Muslims has been successful since the process was established 13 years ago.

But that argument would be a whole lot more convincing if allowing Sharia law wasn't opposed by the Canadian Council of Muslim Women and spokespersons for the Muslim Canadian Congress.

Boyd contends that it's offensive to suggest Muslim women are less capable of making choices than women of other faiths, and that because members of other religions have the option of mediation or arbitration, Muslims should not be excluded. What's needed, she suggests, is public education to ensure Muslim women understand "the consequences of choices."

What hogwash.

The problem is not with women failing to know about or understand their choices -- it's with economic, religious and familial pressures depriving them of those choices in the first place.

Boyd has failed to examine whether religious arbitrations meet the test of fairness. Does she really believe that a penniless mother with four or five children, no Canadian work experience and limited English or French language skills has choices? Is she naive enough to think there are choices when one party (usually male) holds all the economic power and the other party lives in a dependent situation?

When marriages dissolve, that balance of power becomes even more precarious -- which is why a civilian legal system is critical.

The real question untouched in the Boyd report is why civil society would agree to religious arbitration -- Muslim, Jewish, Christian or anything else -- in the first place.

Have we really done all we can to examine families' experiences since such processes were given the green light in Ontario, including how many arbitrations have resulted in decisions accepted by economic dependents with few real choices? Or is this really about finding a quick solution to the backlog in our courts?

Even aside from faith-based decisions and processes, secular society has hardly eliminated gender inequality: It starts when we're young and continues through all aspects of life, from the classroom to the boardroom and from the home to the House of Commons. Throw in the volatile mix of religion and the law and you have a Molotov cocktail that could blow up at any time.

A few months ago, I watched a powerful television documentary exploring the lives of women living in a British Columbia religious commune where their leader went through wives like hors d'oeuvres at a Christmas party.

One woman fled and was working to save those left behind, but repeated attempts to engage authorities -- from the local police to the judiciary -- achieved little. All were sympathetic, but they were either unwilling or unable to save women from physical and sexual oppression in the name of religion.

A personal experience, too, offered ample evidence of the dangers of taking religious freedoms to the extreme.

As a Member of Parliament, I was once involved in helping a woman whose children were spirited out of the country during a bitter divorce proceeding. Citing cultural and religious differences, her ex-husband fled with their children to his native Pakistan despite an outstanding Canadian court order requiring the children to remain in Canada.

Working with a private investigator and the Foreign Affairs Department, she tracked the children down and went to Pakistan to retrieve them. The only thing she received for her efforts was a severe beating at the hands of her husband's family.

A Canadian court decision could not protect the woman or her children. At the time, I wrote to two dozen family members who were in contact with the children, asking for their help in securing a safe return to Canada. But all of them, including the current president of a local Muslim organization, remained silent -- and that mother has never again seen her kids. There is no sugar-coating it: Those children were kidnapped in the name of culture and religion.

The B.C. commune and the ordeals of that mother are but two examples of how faith-based traditions and customs can clash with the values and principles our civil laws strive to defend. With the scales of justice already weighted in favour of the family breadwinner, why risk a further erosion of women's rights in the name of religion?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 January 2005 11:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tarek, you were just told in another thread that you can't post entire articles on babble due to copyright infringement.

What makes you think that if the National Post only allows their subscribers to read their online articles that this makes it okay to post their entire article on babble?

You can't do that here.

Also, you've already started a thread on this topic in another forum. Why start two threads on the same topic? This article and point of view from Sheila Copps can easily be incorporated into the other thread.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 01 January 2005 11:51 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But why pick on one particular religion. I find it offensive that abuses against Muslim women are somehow worse than abuses against Catholic, Protestant and Jewish women.

It's only "worse" because it is stranger to us, less familiar.

I would caution against political protest that's based on xenophobia.

The reasoned approach is to attack the Arbitration Act in it's entirety.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 01 January 2005 01:17 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I always thought that since women were 50% of the population that they more of a diverse group in terms of thinking and opinions than any other "minority" group.

It is shameful for one woman to speak on behalf of all women and suggest that she can comment on what is suitable or dangerous for others.

I believe that if muslim choose to use shariah law as a tool available to them that is their choice as a functioning adult. I don't believe that they need the permission of Sheila Copps or any like-minded woman.

And for those who are professing muslims who say that the shariah is not part of islam and is against islam. They are a minority with as much credibility as "christians" who say the bible is irrelevant. They have no respect amongst devout muslims.

[ 01 January 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 01 January 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
They are a crazy minority with as much credibility as "christians" who say the bible is irrelevant.

Hailey, that is a step too far. "Crazy" is definitely a step too far.

If I were you, I'd retract that insult, an insult to many Muslims, Christians, and to all people coping with mental illness.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 01 January 2005 01:41 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Skdadl, that's a fair point. I modified the post to reflect a more thoughtful response. Although it wasn't my intent it was a disrespectful term given the numbers of persons dealing with depression, anxiety, or other mental health disabilities. Thanks for drawing it to my attention.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tarek Fatah
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3541

posted 01 January 2005 02:02 PM      Profile for Tarek Fatah   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
It is shameful for one woman to speak on behalf of all women and suggest that she can comment on what is suitable or dangerous for others...I don't believe that they need the permission of Sheila Copps or any like-minded woman.

If it is shameful for Sheila Copps to speak on behalf of all women, why is it ok for Marion Boyd to do the same?

quote:

I believe that if muslim choose to use shariah law as a tool available to them that is their choice as a functioning adult.

What if a Hindu women wishes to commit suicide by jumping into her husband's burning funeral pyre? Would you allow such a choice? After all it is a "funtioning adult" woman making a choice she believes is ordained by her religion.

And what about the multiple wives being circulated among the Christian group in BC? Should we permit that activity?

Not to speak off the adult women who choose to be beaten by their husbands because in their minds, it is God himself who has permitted such beatings.

Tarek


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 01 January 2005 02:09 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. Tarek

It is shameful for any woman to profess to be speaking on behalf of all women - it's insulting. I had not understood that Mr. Boyd was doing that - I thought she was giving muslim women the same choices as their christian and jewish counterparts.


I actually believe that suicide is a personal choice so the example of the Hindu woman probably isn't one that you want to ask me!

I also believe that if people want to marry more than one spouse that isn't my concern so the polygamy BC example probably is not one that I want to ask.

I do, however, favour providing resources to women in abusive situations that want to leave or improve their situation. If they don't wish to make those choices as an adult I can't help them on an individual level but I can work towardds a social milieu that doesn't accept interpersonal violence.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
lacabombi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7014

posted 01 January 2005 04:19 PM      Profile for lacabombi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Tarek Fatah: If it is shameful for Sheila Copps to speak on behalf of all women, why is it ok for Marion Boyd to do the same?

Obviously Marion Boyd had the opportunity to hear and read various views and draw her conclusions. Hardly the case for Sheila Copps.


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 01 January 2005 04:26 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lacabombi:
Obviously Marion Boyd had the opportunity to hear and read various views and draw her conclusions. Hardly the case for Sheila Copps.

i have never defended Copps and do not like that I am about to. But how do we know that Sheila is not informed on this issue? Sheila was a senior federal Cabinet Minsiter for a decade and was as involved as almost any other politician.

WHy should she not be given the platform to speak.

If we limit our politicians to speak about only what they have learned during a travelling road show then to be fair no politician would be allowed to speak.

With regards to Boyd and her dog and pony show. I have heard compliments from those given and audience and complainst from those who were not.

WHat really makes her view that much better?

Sorry Lacabombi but to be fair if we really want to limit the debate to women that are informed then only Muslem woman should be allowed to comment since Sharia will only affect them.

If on the other hand we look at the issue of Sharia and the dangers to woman across Canada then any woman must be given the right to voice their opinion.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 01 January 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
double post....sorry

[ 01 January 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
lacabombi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7014

posted 01 January 2005 07:36 PM      Profile for lacabombi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
johnpauljones,

Sheila Copps was Minister of Heritage. If she ever was informed about an issue called "Sharia" it is certainly not to extent Marion Boyd has examined it. The latter was mandated by the government of Ontario to specifically hear and read various views and come up with a report and recommendations. About six months of time allocated specifically to this issue.

I do not think it is fair to equate Sheila Copps's understanding or possible knowledge about the issue to that of Marion Boyd.

quote:

Johnpauljones: Sorry Iacabombi but to be fair if we really want to limit the debate to women that are informed then only Muslem woman should be allowed to comment since Sharia will only affect them.

Any debate, if to be fruitful, requires that debaters know what they are talking about. If I am to partake in a debate about Canada's international aid, there is a minimal knowledge that I must possess. Otherwise, I am not debating, I am learning, getting informed. There is a difference.

Knowledge of Sharia is not the preserve of Muslim women or men, since, in our computer age, knowldge is relatively available.

Let me quote from the internet:

The modernist movement in Islam has opposed the traditional view of Sharia stating that the law cannot be changed by man, insisting that it should be applied to the actual situation and new ideas, meaning that new interpretations are allowed.

This means Sharia can (and should) be dynamic, changing with time and circumstances. And it is actually in many islamic countries. While orthodox Sharia -as in Saudi Arabia- saya that men and women should be segregated, the same Sharia (modern version) says that men and women can work, study and mingle together., that a woman's testimony is equal to a man's and on and on: Iraq, at least until thhe fall of Saddam Hussein, Algeria, Sudan, Egypt, Malaysia, Tunisia and many other countries.

The fear of Sharia is spurred by what happens in Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and a state in Nigeria in the name of Islam. Do we really think that that would happen in Canada ? For one Sharia criminal law (as appicable in these countries) is out of the question, here in Canada. Is that reason enough to deny those who want Sharia arbitration in their business transaction or family law their right to their faith ?

If I am a dieying Canadian Muslim single parent and wish for my children to be adopted by a Muslim Canadian, I can invoke Sharia with the adopting Muslim family so that they will not change my children's names and surname. (According to Sharia, an adopted child must retain his or her name and surname. A contract can be drawn to that effect before a Sharia tribunal and I should have the right that the state enforce the stipulation of that contract as it is not against any secular law.


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
planteater
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6753

posted 01 January 2005 10:38 PM      Profile for planteater     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
By Tommy_Paine: The reasoned approach is to attack the Arbitration Act in it's entirety.

I concur. The problem with the Ontario act is that the decision rendered by the arbitrators is the final legal verdict, as long as it doesn't conflict with regular secular laws.

That is problematic in cases such as divorce and child custody since those people who might have felt pressured (due to cultural, familial, religious influences) into going for arbitration in the first place would now be forced to abide by decisions that, despite being in conformity to sharia (or any other religious legal system), are inherently unfair, and would never have been pronounced in a regular courtroom. Note that while the discussion here is about sharia, this could be true of any other theological set of laws as well.

One way out of the quandry would be to disallow all arbitration or to do as Quebec does. Arbitration is allowed, but the decisions of the arbitrators are not legally binding. They are issued as recommendations which can only be made legal by a decision rendered by a regular provincial judge. At the very least, this makes the system more transparent and I feel fairer.

quote:
By Hailey: I believe that if muslim choose to use shariah law as a tool available to them that is their choice as a functioning adult.

What many detractors are worried about is that "choice as a functioning adult" isn't really an option available to many of the women who will be affected.


From: West Island | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 01 January 2005 11:10 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lacabombi:
certainly not to extent Marion Boyd has examined it. The latter was mandated by the government of Ontario to specifically hear and read various views and come up with a report and recommendations. About six months of time allocated specifically to this issue.

I do not think it is fair to equate Sheila Copps's understanding or possible knowledge about the issue to that of Marion Boyd.



I will accept that you are correct and I erred in my assumption.

Although it is unknown about her immediate knowledge on the Sharia issue you were a bit unfair to Sheila;s career.

She served as not only the Minister of Heritage but also was:
Deputy Prime Minister of Canada 1993 to 1997
Minister of the Environment 1993 to 1996
Minister of Communications 1996
Minister of Multiculturalism and Citizenship 1996
Minister of Amateur Sport 1996 to 1999
Minister of Canadian Heritage 1996 to 2003

More important you do raise an interesting problem. When is someone deemed to be properly educated on an issue to utter an opinion?

I have worked as a researcher to a provincial inquiry before. To be fair they read what we gave them. Yes they listened to depositions etc. But after the testimony was done it was up to us to prepare a synopisis for chair. If a presentation was provided ahead of time we summarized it prior to the days deliberations.

I can not speak to how Boyd is running her show. But it is very possible that she also is not getting an accurate gaugue of the issue.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 02 January 2005 03:16 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
More important you do raise an interesting problem. When is someone deemed to be properly educated on an issue to utter an opinion?


I don't think education automatically trumps everything else. We all like to make fun of Bush for being this blithering idiot, but the fact remains that many of the policy wonks who inspired and/or planned the current Iraq fiasco probably know a lot about the middle east. That doesn't stop me from thinking that they're wrong, however. Education doesn't help you much if you're blinkered by ideology, partisan considerations etc.

You used to hear Alberta progressives ridiculing Klein for not having much education, with the implication seeming to be that an educated person wouldn't implement such bad policies. The fact that Klein also had a whole shitload of univeristy-educated people helping him implemement these policies seemed to go unnoticed.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Negad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7863

posted 10 January 2005 09:38 PM      Profile for Negad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle,
in regard to this
"Tarek, you were just told in another thread that you can't post entire articles on babble due to copyright infringement."
If you don't like a thread why don't you just keep out of it all together. Each topic has a meaning in different context and as it seems people have a choice to open a new thread on this forum. You also have the choice not to read it if you do not wish. Is your problem really about the fact that this topic is mentioned in more than one place or there is something else, perhaps you need to reach deep inside and figure it out for yourself.

[ 10 January 2005: Message edited by: Negad ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca