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... Whatever the reason, it appears that there are only two ways to go about being female these days: You are either a midriff-bearing, gum-snapping, engagement ring-chasing girly girl or you are a probable lesbian.

We used to think of this dichotomy in terms of "separating the women from the girls." Perhaps you remember how this went. Teenagers and early twentysomethings wore nameplate necklaces and waited for the phone to ring, and adult women owned condos and knew how to unclog a toilet without losing their sex appeal.

But in a culture that's as allergic to subtlety as it is obsessed with youth, acceptable versions of womanhood seem to be melting away with the polar ice cap. You either get the Botox, the boob job, the bikini wax and baby doll dresses, or you take the radical step of looking and acting like a fully formed, grown-up female.

Once upon a time, these fully formed creatures were called "real women." Now they're called lesbians. This is especially true in cases in which the women in question are not known to actually be lesbians. What do Hillary Rodham Clinton, Condoleezza Rice, Christiane Amanpour, Oprah Winfrey and Martha Stewart have in common? It's not that they're accomplished, independent, talented, ambitious or rich, it's that they're all secretly gay! Ask anyone who reads Internet blogs.

I'm allowed to say this because I'm secretly gay too. Or at least I try to be. What choice do I have? Apparently "lesbian" is now the de facto label for any woman who asserts her own tastes and opinions and does not necessarily need to get married tomorrow. Granted, this might be confusing for people who lack opinions and their own tastes, and are desperate to settle down, but happen to be actual lesbians. But, according to the current cultural mind-set, a heterosexual woman who has her act together simply does not exist in nature.

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Article

for many women, middle age brings with it an invisibility that is like a strange blanket.
i have friends in their 50's who are brilliant and funny musicians, teachers, artists, mothers and grandmothers who are truly hitting their stride as huge human beings, just as society has decided that they are nonentities.

I have heard women complain that after a "certain age" they are considered asexual and invisible, from a sexual perspective, and that they become pegged as a stereotypical grandma-type.

But, considering that much of the "value" of women in our society is tied to our sexuality, I can see where it would mean that once we are seen as "asexual", then the stereotypical "older women" activities are not paid attention to all that much.

The very first thing I did when I left my husband was to take all my documents everywhere and change my name back to my maiden name. It felt so good to be me again.

Just to veer back to another aspect of this thread subject - I've been reading the New York Times online this morning (as you all can probably tell since I'm posting so many articles - but every one I've read so far reminded me of something we'd been talking about on babble!) and I found an article that touches on the whole "invisibility of older women" thing. It's a review of a movie about the phenomenon of older women going off on sex tourism vacations in Haiti because they feel invisible at home.

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A rave review by Stephen Holden in The New York Times called the movie “one of the most truthful examinations ever filmed of desire, age and youth.’’ Since it opened July 7, theaters have been packed with women about the same age as the ones on the screen. Some bought tickets in groups for a kind of middle-aged girls’ night out. Interviews indicated the movie has hit home with this audience because it affirms the sexual reality of women of a certain age, that even as they pass the prime of their desirability to men, libidos smolder. More than a few said they came seeking a hot night out.

“The whole notion of women’s sexuality fading away has disappeared,’’ said Marjorie Solovay, 63, a retired schoolteacher in Manhattan, after seeing “Heading South’’ on Wednesday. “Women’s sexuality carries on.’’

The next night a retired 62-year-old said: “Two friends of mine saw it over the weekend and said it is a must-see. They’re 60 and 72. It’s interesting that women feel they’re able to relate to it. So many movies are youth-oriented.’’

The film takes a hard look at the dearth of appropriate sexual partners for women like Ellen, its lead character, played by Charlotte Rampling, a single 55-year-old professor of French literature at Wellesley. Ellen says, “If you’re over 40 and not as dumb as a fashion model, the only guys who are interested are natural born losers or husbands whose wives are cheating on them.’’

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Libidos of a Certain Age

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Originally posted by morningstar:
. . . for many women, middle age brings with it an invisibility that is like a strange blanket.
i have friends in their 50's who are brilliant and funny musicians, teachers, artists, mothers and grandmothers who are truly hitting their stride as huge human beings, just as society has decided that they are nonentities. . . .

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What does this mean? Can't get a date? A job? A bank loan? If these women need more attention, then from who? Strangers in the mall? Family? Their students?

most of the world [except for other middle aged women and old people] pays very little attention to us and it's clear that we all look the same to them; at church, on the street, in stores, at functions of any kind we are dismissed out of hand as soon as eyes are laid on us.

fortunately, none of us are mate or job hunting because the societal attitudes about older women stink and we're always at a disadvantage in societal competition..

we all laugh at how we are regularily lumped together into a seemingly unrecognizable bunch of older women --i'm fair and blue eyed, my best friend is darker and semetic in appearance--we are regularily confused with each other, by most people who clearly find middle aged women uninteresting.
and it isn't just men---younger women pay even less attention to us--even the rudimentary courtesy that would be shown by them to any other sector of society is often not forthcoming. they don't want us around reminding them of what they will soon become.

at first, most of us were somewhat rueful about our public dismissal--now we rather find it an advantage.

we can move 'under the radar' with much less hassle and energy than in our pre 40 days
we are much wiser and more intelligent than we were in our youth, although total recall is a thing of the past.

we all find womens efforts at staying young and sexual silly and boring. the advantages of these 'crone' years are subtle, intelligent and well worth experiencing.
and ask any of us what we think of viagra---you'll get a rather scathing assesment of where we believe the aging male brain resides and what should be done about it.

our real bone of contention, is that our misogynist society promotes high maintainance sexual youth, long past what is humanly graceful, for men as well as women, and does us all a great diservice.

honouring the aging of women is an important piece of gender equality. it will make it much easier for young and older women to regain a natural and rewarding alliance---i believe that society has purposefully created the artificial and damaging antipathy between young and old women because it keeps women of all ages weak.

i believe that unless an older woman has been willing to function within a male corporate structure, be it political, acedemic, or business, she is purposefully devalued.

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just as society has decided that they are nonentities

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As Polly points out, she is labelled as someones wife or someones mother before she is her own person in many cases.

Capitalism tends to have an impact on this too... Since traditionally the ones with control over the money are the men in families (or single males often make the big money to spend) most advertising, manufacturing, and research is aimed at that audience. Guess who gets ignored?

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I guess what I am asking is what would have to happen to acknowledge and/or confer entity status on these women?

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Anyhow, this isn't too surprising. It's human beings natural tendency to seek to classify - and it's also pretty damn common that whenever there is a classification of people, most individuals fall somewhere within th two extremes.

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Originally posted by Noise:
Err, Farces, I think you're missing the point on this. It's not a matter of a bank loan or a date or a lil attention....
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It's not a simple matter of acknowledgement unfortunately... It's drilled heavily into our society and such a change would take mass awareness on the part of the people of a society.

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I am asking questions and listening. Still unclear on what sort of attention or courtesy is being sought here. I understand that society won't be fixed until every single male and female drastically changes her and/or himself, but, in the meantime, what is the proactive, problem-solving strategy at a personal level, you know, vis-a-vis the actual people in my actual life?

I understand the part about not mixing up people's names (as a male, I get mixed up with other males plenty and always have). But surely having your name mixed up or your face forgotten doesn't make one a "nonentity" -- that is just part of life. There has got to be more to it than that, but I don't know what it is. If I met a 50 year old woman, is there some way to do my bit to make her feel like an entity?

In the last 10 years my life has changed dramatically. It went something like this:

Scout do you have a boyfriend yet?
Scout, your boyfriend is lovely, when are you moving in together?
Scout, when are you getting engaged?
Scout, congrats on your engagment, when's the wedding?
Scout, you've been married almost 2 years, when are you producing some kidlets, you're not so young anymore you know?

I wonder what will happen after I sprog? And after people are done berrating me for only having one? I think that's when I will start to disappear.

Strangley enough the Boyscout faced far less grilling about getting married and surround events. People want to know "where he is these days?" So much more interested in his job and his golf game than mine and a real obsession with my uterus compared to his swimmers.

So 500_apples, most of my social interactions, even with dear friends and family have to do with prescribed goals set out for me as a woman, not to do with my career or my hobbies, but eventually all those milestones will be over and I don't see people suddenly asking me about my career or hobbies then if they aren't already interested.

I've been travelling the past few months. When emaling my friends about life on the west coast, I let them know about the hobbies, the fun stuff, but don't talk that much about the job. Jobs are very esoteric and specialized work doesn't make much sense in any non-superficial way to people outside the field, and as such most people don't care. Hypothetically if I had met a girlfriend here I'm sure most would have been curious, because that's something people relate to, it's a lot more universal than an esoteric career.

All in all I would suggest this is a generational difference with respect to gender attitudes and responses thereof rather than a reflection of generalized gender attitudes themselves. That being said, if ten years from now I'm a father and the mother of one of my child's friends meets me and says "oh, you're Michael's [made up name] father!" I won't take it as an example of anti-male sexism, I'll be very complimented in fact.

[ 17 July 2006: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

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I am asking questions and listening.

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I know Farces, I'm trying to help you along the way Hehe, plz don't take my post as an attack Besides, I'm one of the ones asking questions and listening myself.

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But surely having your name mixed up or your face forgotten doesn't make one a "nonentity"

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If it was simply that (or simply 500_apples quote below this), then you are correct.

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That being said, if ten years from now I'm a father and the mother of one of my child's friends meets me and says "oh, you're Michael's [made up name] father!"

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I think you need to take your example one step further although apples. Not only are you referred to by simply one mother as "Michael's father" just one time, but everyone refers to you as that (I guess interchangeable as 'someones husband' as well). Nothing is really directed at you as your individual person, but is directed to you as 'Michaels Father' or 'insert names husband'. Advertising isn't directed at you (besides pointing out how you're no longer young)... Well unless it's telling Michael to go ask Michael's father for something. You are no longer the 500_apples individual, rather an extention of "Michael".

i went through much the same---it was how we looked--nothing to do with things that we did,

my friends and i are largely invisible in public and it's how we look.

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Originally posted by Scout:
I wonder what will happen after I sprog? And after people are done berrating me for only having one?

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
That being said, if ten years from now I'm a father and the mother of one of my child's friends meets me and says "oh, you're Michael's [made up name] father!" I won't take it as an example of anti-male sexism, I'll be very complimented in fact.

[ 17 July 2006: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

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I thought that too, pre-children. I thought that I would be so damn pleased to have reproduced and delivered the next (insert name of nobel winner here) that I would LIKE to be known as Michael's Mom. In fact, I am sure for the first six months or so, I buried myself in the mom-ness, I was happy to be second best to this amazing little miracle I had brought forth. It was positively god-like. My husband worked, and I worked from home (see that? even I put my contribution second to his "real" workingness) and raised the kids.

Now my kids are people, they have their own lives and their own goals and their own friends and their own worlds. My foster kids come and go. My husband has a demanding and rewarding career.

I am learning how to step away from being Chris's wife, or Michael's mom. It's a steep learning curve. And when someone says to me, "oh, you must be Chris's wife...", I now ask, "Chris who?". They have to explain to me who they are talking about, and I let them until they have spilled everything they know about my other half. Then I say, "oh, that Chris...yes, he is my husband".

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Originally posted by Polly Brandybuck:
And when someone says to me, "oh, you must be Chris's wife...", I now ask, "Chris who?"

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Heh. You know when the berating for only having one child ends? When you get divorced. Works like a charm.

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But, the questions about when you're going to give junior a little sibling will definitely stop.

Seriously, that used to get on my nerves after a while too. The first question - "So, are you planning on giving him a little brother or sister?" didn't bother me. I'd laugh it off and say, "Oh, I think one's plenty!"

But so often, people would then be downright reproachful about it and say, "You're going to make him an only child? You're not going to give him any brothers or sisters?" as if you've just announced that you were planning on locking him in a box once he turns five, and letting him out when he's twenty. It got so that it annoyed the crap out of me.

At first, I would say, "Well, I'm an only child and I liked it - I'm happy," and then they'd be like, "Really?" and it would go on and on. Finally I just started saying, "No. I'm not," in a tone that implied "and MYOFB" tacked onto the end.

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Originally posted by morningstar:
my daughter has been battling being labeled . . . neither my husband nor 2 sons have ever had to deal with this. they've always been percieved as the individuals that they are,

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Maybe your sons have had to battle being labelled. Namecalling among boys and adolescent males was pretty common (and moderately hurtful) when I grew up. More specifically there was namecalling based on looks (acne and underweightness in my case) and brains (or lack thereof). I would be shocked to find out that that problem has gone away. This namecalling (or, labelling, if you insist) is a problem that is less about gender and more about bad adolescent behavior. This might also be an opportunity for improved listening.

[ 18 July 2006: Message edited by: Farces ]

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Maybe your sons have had to battle being labelled.

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