Here is my quandry: Something that I have been wondering since Stephen Harper first appeared: is he wealthy? Comfortable? Middle-class? One has to assume that, as a defender of private privelege and power, he must be well-off and have investments (proabably in energy and security?) in order to justify his Machiavellian devotion to The Rich. Or is it just pure power?

Has anyone ever heard of what he is worth? I know he was a lobbyist for the NCC, but I cannot find anywhere a report of how much he's worth. It would be a lot easier for me to criticize Harper if I knew whether he is simply rich or not.

What you are saying is: "I don't like the guy... sure I can criticize his policies... but I need some ammo to attack him as a PERSON, y'know... take it to a personal level."

Maybe we can dig up some dirt on his kids while we are at it.

Attack his policies, despise his politics, criticize his approach... lord knows there's enough material there to stay busy for years... but looking for dirt by diggin through his personal finances?

Lucas (and anyone who's wondering), let me explain: I am interested in Harper's finances because my research demonstrates to me that the powerful elite of the world are oppressing the majority poor. This is a pretty common, uncontroversioal "left-wing" political idealogy, I'm sure you'll agree, and I merely want to know if Harper is as immediately identifiable as "rich" as, say, David Emerson or Dick Cheney. That makes his motives easier to explain; I find behind almost all Neo-Conservative politics lies a stuffed coffer!

Second, my father is a devoted supporter of Harper, and a right-wing Christian. I wish to ask my father how he, as a Christian, can vote for people who defend the rich and powerful, instead of the poor, as it seems Christ suggests his followers should do.

Make sense? I would've thought not liking Harper would be uncontroversial here...but I guess not.

[ 11 May 2006: Message edited by: bduffy ]

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Originally posted by Sanityatlast:
Stephen Harper lives in a modest neighborhood in a modest home in Calgary...as does Ralph Klein. Their 'official' governmnet-provided residences are not of their choosing.

Harper is a decent fellow. One can disagree with his politics but he shovels his sidewalk like everyone else.

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I think you're missing my point. I know what he makes as a Prime Minister. I suspect he's tied into a larger network of investing and corporate welfare that is or will make him wealthy. Hence the policies about "cracking down on crime" (private security industry), "War on Terror" (Military Industry). I would think these grateful companies will thank the PM one day, as N.Beltov suggested.

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Originally posted by bduffy:
I am interested in Harper's finances because my research demonstrates to me that the powerful elite of the world are oppressing the majority poor. This is a pretty common, uncontroversioal "left-wing" political idealogy, I'm sure you'll agree, and I merely want to know if Harper is as immediately identifiable as "rich"
[ 11 May 2006: Message edited by: bduffy ]

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Well Harper is poor when compaired with Pierre Trudeau or Brian Mulroney, or Jean Chretien or even Paul Martin.

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One can disagree with his politics but he shovels his sidewalk like everyone else.

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Originally posted by bduffy:

Sure. The guy who pulled the lever at the gas chambers also went home and played with his kids. Could've been a perfectly nice guy.

I think you're missing my point. I know what he makes as a Prime Minister. I suspect he's tied into a larger network of investing and corporate welfare that is or will make him wealthy. Hence the policies about "cracking down on crime" (private security industry), "War on Terror" (Military Industry). I would think these grateful companies will thank the PM one day, as N.Beltov suggested.

I don't get it: I thought Rabble.ca was a leftist/progressive sort of place?

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Karl? Karl Rove? Is that you?

Your comment as to this board being accepting of Harper criticisms is incorrect. Criticizing Harper here is not contoversial in the least, I just prefer that we discuss the issues based on valid critiques. Harper's clothing choices, his weight, or any other ridiculous personal jabs only reduce the conversation to a silly schoolyard taunting session. Arguably his net worth may prove to ba a valid part of the equation, I guess we will have to see where this goes.

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Originally posted by johnpauljones:

Well Harper is poor when compaired with Pierre Trudeau or Brian Mulroney, or Jean Chretien or even Paul Martin.

Hmm 3 rich lying liberals and ich lyin Brian.

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Originally posted by lucas:
Fair enough, perhaps it was an overreaction on my part. I guess I am seeing far too many policy debates descend into personal attacks... which signal a lack of hard evidence with which to make a case.

Your comment as to this board being accepting of Harper criticisms is incorrect. Criticizing Harper here is not contoversial in the least, I just prefer that we discuss the issues based on valid critiques. Harper's clothing choices, his weight, or any other ridiculous personal jabs only reduce the conversation to a silly schoolyard taunting session. Arguably his net worth may prove to ba a valid part of the equation, I guess we will have to see where this goes.

Based on what I know of him, he is not wealthy in the Paul Martin or the Dick Cheney way. Likely loking for some pile of dough in his closet will not yield you much. He appears to be of somewhat modest background financially. As already pointed out, he is more of an academic than a career politician. This gig as PM (however long it lasts) is probably the most money he has ever made. I agree with the assetion that the payoff comes later... in the private sector. I just read today that Manley is now on CP's board of directors.

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OK, I PROMISE I am not one of those guys who attacks politicians based on looks. That is precisely the type of media coverage-style politics they want us to engage in! No, I don't care about that. I just want to be clear on his motivation, and like I said, for the religious right, they should not be backing rich people; it just does not make sense.

OK, let's see what others have said...

[ 11 May 2006: Message edited by: bduffy ]

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Originally posted by skeptikool:
Good one, L. T. J.

You may tell a lot about a person by noting with whom he chooses to consort. Getting in bed with an alleged war criminal is, to me, one of Stephen Harper's less endearing traits.

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Originally posted by skeptikool:
Good one, L. T. J.

You may tell a lot about a person by noting with whom he chooses to consort. Getting in bed with an alleged war criminal is, to me, one of Stephen Harper's less endearing traits.

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Once again I agree but the same has to be said about Chretien and Martin.

Look if we are going to attack then let's attack Harper for being a homophobic bigot.

ETA I could care less if Harper is worth a billion or a penny. It is his policies that I hate. no more no less

[ 11 May 2006: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

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Originally posted by johnpauljones:

Once again I agree but the same has to be said about Chretien and Martin.

Look if we are going to attack then let's attack Harper for being a homophobic bigot.

ETA I could care less if Harper is worth a billion or a penny. It is his policies that I hate. no more no less

[ 11 May 2006: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

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In that case, let's be productive, then. What do you think is the most effective thing to do right now for someone who opposes Neo-conservative domination? I tried writing Conservative MP's, and so far I got a near comical response from the PM office invoking baseball imagery!

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
The interesting thing is of course that Harper has never had a job outside of politics, academia or the NCC.

Not that there is anything wrong with that but its funny how a left winger with similar credentials would be described as an insider, out of touch with the common man.

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
The interesting thing is of course that Harper has never had a job outside of politics, academia or the NCC.

Not that there is anything wrong with that but its funny how a left winger with similar credentials would be described as an insider, out of touch with the common man.

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He was an MP from 1993-1997, Leader of the Opposition from 2002 to 2006, and now Prime Minister.

The pay for those positions today are $147,700, $215,500 and $295,400 respectively as of 2006.

Source

His other jobs have been:

Chief Policy Officer for the Reform Party
Legislative Assistant to Deborah Gray
President of the National Citizens Coalition

Source

None of the above strike me as ridiculously high-paying jobs.

Wikipedia has some bio info here

The house on Princess Anne Crescent is now probably worth between half a million and a million dollars. His father was an accountant for an oil company and probably earned a low six-figure income before he died.

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

How true that is, except it applies to centrists (aka "liberals" as well). If Harper were a Liberal/Democrat he'd be accused of being a pointy-headed intellectual!

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Tommy Douglas was a Bible thumping minister and a politician. Trudeau was a nothing and a politician. Perhaps some guy was only a farmer and a politician. A truck driver and a politician. A hockey player and a politician.

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Originally posted by bduffy:
Thanks, BlawBlaw - helpful stuff. I was just trying to figure out if money was a motivation, and, frightenly enough, it's not. He actually is a fascist.

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Fascist

"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

Which is why he is in favour of decentralization and economic liberalism. He's a moderate conservative according to the likes of PoliticalCompass. According to others he is a economic libertarian and social centrist, although his personal life choices are no doubt much more conservative than what he advocates as good public policy.

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Originally posted by BlawBlaw:

Fascist

"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

Which is why he is in favour of decentralization and economic liberalism. He's a moderate conservative according to the likes of PoliticalCompass. According to others he is a economic libertarian and social centrist, although his personal life choices are no doubt much more conservative than what he advocates as good public policy.

But he is a "true believer" in that he advocates many of the economic policies that he does because he has come to a reasoned conclusion that they are correct and in the best interest of society as a whole. I don't think there is an ulterior motive as he doesn't have millions of dollars on the line like Martin did with his shipping company, or GWB and his oil interests.

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Harper is a self-professed champion economic liberalism, as you say. Huge fan, agreed. Now when you think about the impossible levels of poverty, death and suffering that is caused in the world directly by liberal economics, and the fact that the kind of massive profits that business is accustomed to cannot be achieved without the secret manipulation of laws, state subsidies, subversion of public funds and the marginalization and exclusion of the public - what does that spell out to?
In other words: severe economic and social regimentation, suppression of opposition, and I don't think I have to explain the policies "that exalts nation and often race above the individual". The integration of capatilism and government is fascism, IMHO, just well-disguised.

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Originally posted by BlawBlaw:

The house on Princess Anne Crescent is now probably worth between half a million and a million dollars. His father was an accountant for an oil company and probably earned a low six-figure income before he died.

All of this indicates that he had a middle-class upbringing and now, setting aside his current residence and political duties, largely leads an upper-middle class life.

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OTOH -- who is this dude who presumes to rule over us? As others have pointed out, he has never had a 9-5 job (but maybe he flipped burgers in his teens?), seems to have been surrounded by intellectuals with whom he has always been in hearty agreement (the Calgary school, Alliance), has firm bonds with the wealthy in this country and in the US... He even sued the supreme court of Canada for the right of a 3rd party (the NCC) to have a say in elections. If a left leaning party had sued the supremes for the right of (say) the communist party to get their word out on electoral matters, wouldn't that be of some interest?

Martin's ties to the Canadian Steamship Lines were investigated quite thoroughly. I would argue Martin's ties made a large difference to the way he was viewed by voters. His interests may even explain why Canada has some of the weakest laws on the books re. divestment of steamship bilge water.

Speculative psychology may be best left to biographers, but knowing something about this man -- other than his own propaganda that he is writing a book about hockey -- that is in our interests.

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Originally posted by thorin_bane:

Wow my house is worth 140,000 tops and I make a good wage of about 60,000 a year and thought myself to be in the upper end of the middle class. I guess you have a different definition of what the "middle" is than I.
"yeah my dad was a doctor and my mom a lawyer, you know kinda like the cosby's...so I guess I am from the middle class." Not in my books you aren't.

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OK: that's a joke. I'm in the middle class.

[ 12 May 2006: Message edited by: bduffy ]

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Originally posted by thorin_bane:

Wow my house is worth 140,000 tops and I make a good wage of about 60,000 a year and thought myself to be in the upper end of the middle class. I guess you have a different definition of what the "middle" is than I.
"yeah my dad was a doctor and my mom a lawyer, you know kinda like the cosby's...so I guess I am from the middle class." Not in my books you aren't.

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Originally posted by BlawBlaw:

From that I would say you are looking at incomes between $60,000 and maybe $250,000 per year.

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Originally posted by Polly Brandybuck:

Damn, and here I thought I had made it to middle class...

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All those Newfies in the oilpatch are suddenly middle and upper class.

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Harper is a decent fellow

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In your world in Mike Harris a 'decent fellow'?

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

In your world in Mike Harris a 'decent fellow'?

That had to be the funniest comment I have ever read on a lefist forum. Hilarious in fact. Sort of like, 'George W., he's just s decent fellow.'

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

In your world in Mike Harris a 'decent fellow'?

That had to be the funniest comment I have ever read on a lefist forum. Hilarious in fact. Sort of like, 'George W., he's just s decent fellow.'

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Sure he is. Your kneejerk reaction against the guy isn't funny but more pathetic. Illustrates your inability to step back and discuss actual policies and separate them from the individual. I don't care that Tommy Douglas was a Bible thumping preacher and condemned homosexuality. His business. Tommy stands on his policies.

[ 12 May 2006: Message edited by: Sanityatlast ]

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Originally posted by Sanityatlast:

All those Newfies in the oilpatch are suddenly middle and upper class.

"What Bordeaux wine would you recommnend with the seal flipper?"

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Originally posted by Sanityatlast:

Sure he is. Your kneejerk reaction against the guy isn't funny but more pathetic. Illustrates your inability to step back and discuss actual policies and separate them from the individual. I don't care that Tommy Douglas was a Bible thumping preacher and condemned homosexuality. His business. Tommy stands on his policies.

[ 12 May 2006: Message edited by: Sanityatlast ]

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Originally posted by thorin_bane:

Wow my house is worth 140,000 tops and I make a good wage of about 60,000 a year and thought myself to be in the upper end of the middle class. I guess you have a different definition of what the "middle" is than I.

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Originally posted by bduffy:

but when someone institutes a program like Workfare, you gotta wonder how much of a sweetie he is

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Tough Love, but love nonetheless. :-)

[ 15 May 2006: Message edited by: BlawBlaw ]

Anyone below the line would be considered in the lower (lowest) economic class, while households above would be deemed in the middle class.

[Edited to fix typos.]

[ 12 May 2006: Message edited by: Naci_Sey ]

Generally, a middle class family will own a home and a vehicle and otherwise not want for any necessities.

A tale of two 'kids'. My wife's 24-year-old nephew came out from Ottawa 3 years ago with his girlfriend. He's not academically inclined and was floundering around in life. We hooked him up in the oilpatch up in Zama in northern Alberta. He and his girl friend saved 95 thousand in wages and per diem allowance after just over a year of hard work. They returned to Calgary and bought a modest house and in the last year the value of their house has increased just over 2 hundred thousand and together with their original investment now have about 3 hundred thousand in house assets. They've also since saved more and had that value increase in mutual funds. So they are now worth about a half million and have a good foundation for life.

Now here's the kicker. One of the fellows our nephew worked up in Zama with bought a 40 thousand Dollar Dodge Truck. Now worth less and cost him a fortune in insurance. Other than the few grand he earns in the oilpatch each month, he has no assets.