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Author Topic: Minimum wage in the hot Albertan economy.
bruce_the_vii
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posted 24 April 2008 03:16 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I take an interest in the labour market and would like to know what the defacto minimum wage in Albertan cities has become. The legislated minmum wage doesn't have much effect in a hot economy such as Alberta. (In fact even in Toronto it's hard to hire reliable people for minimum wage.) One reads media articles that Tim Horton's is paying such and such for the night shift. A review of the classifieds in Alberta suggest there are still sweat shop there. Does anyone have any information on this topic?
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 24 April 2008 03:27 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Statistics Canada has it's small cities and village census information on its Web site. You can look up any small town for it's vital statistics, say where you grew up or have some interest in.

I'm interested in the economy and use the adult participation in the labour force to judge the economic health of communities. The official unemployment figure doesn't tell you much, anything actually. The best communities have a participation rate of 72% - 74%, although the lack of old people in Alberta skews this up. I found the data very interesting. The communities in the territories, the far north are actually the best in Canada. People are working. Meanwhile some of the cities in Ontario's and Quebec's north are not as bad as suspect, are average.

Go to www.statcan.ca, English, and "Community profiles"


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Polly Brandybuck
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posted 24 April 2008 05:12 PM      Profile for Polly Brandybuck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Which businesses appeared to be paying sweatshop wages, bruce? Our closest city is Grande Prairie, and what I hear is that employers can't find staff unless they start over $13/hour. Tims does advertise 15 bucks for night shift, Superstore is advertising 16 bucks for night work. We were at a job fair yesterday with my son, and there wasn't any participating businesses offering less than 14/hr.

The cost of living here is pretty high - those wages are great for a kid living at home but not so much for someone who has to support themselves.

No end to the help wanted ads tho.


From: To Infinity...and beyond! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 24 April 2008 06:53 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for responding. I wanted to hear accounts like that. The help wanted signs are an index that things are tight. In a good economy some businesses that are marginal should actually close up and while this will be news it's actually healthy. Businesses that can't carry the freight of a competative wage will close and the basket of goods consumers purchase will shift. I looked at the classifieds on the Web and gas stations in Fort McMurray itself were advertising $11 an hour after 3 months.

In Alberta what drives the cost of living is the price of accomodation. This is driven up by the cost of new construction, and the oil patch is keeping all the constuction workers busy. If the rest of the country were to have their labour market tighten things might be better for minimum wage earners because better housing costs.

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 24 April 2008 07:34 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to the Census data at the above the Albertan towns and cities but also N. British Columbia and the territories will have labour shortages at the bottom. That is Medicine Hat, Calgary, Red Deer, Edmonton, Fort McMurray, Grande Prairie and Prince George will have tight labour markets. Also Whitehorse and Yellowknife. Lethbridge is slightly behind.

In the rest of Canada the Toronto suburbs are picking up, Barrie but also the Gatineau in Quebec.

I've discussed this at length with other citizens concerned about labour markets and they feel it's better just to have a recession and cool the labour markets than quench them with immigration and drive minimum wage down. Certainly labour in small business doesn't want anydown ward pressure.

In the statistics (available from the city of toronto but not from statistics canada) the Toronto suburbs went to considerably higher participation in the labour force than Alberta is now in 1990. Given a few years for people to adjust they get back into the workforce. The number of people working could go up another 4% of so. So this is exciting and I'm watching for Alberta to verify this behavior. This means higher family income, more government revenues and an economy better able to with stand buffeting by recessions and world competition.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 24 April 2008 09:45 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Polly:

I was reviewing your post and the question as to just what Tim Hortons charges for a small coffee in Grande Prairie comes up. In Toronto it went up from $1.12 to $1.18 recently because of the legistated raise in minimum wage to $8.75. I have long eyed Tims Hortons as a company that could pay better with only a slight raise in prices because it is so busy. In fact Tim Hortons is a national index of minimum wage because they absoltutely moil the labour force for worst cases, English speaking immigrant woman in Toronto.

The defacto minimum wage is critical to the working poor but even on rabble here the fact that it's $13 in Grande Prairie won't attract much interest. However, it's my thing. And my selling point.

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 26 April 2008 12:44 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When I was in Calgary over Xmas there was a HUGE help wanted sign at the Superstore. 10+ foot painted letters across the front glass over the doors: "Night Shift $16 something".

And when I was in the seafood section I had to try about 4 or 5 workers to find someone who had enough facility in english to understand my pretty simple question nad bring me to a product.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Skinny Dipper
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posted 26 April 2008 03:57 AM      Profile for Skinny Dipper   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would like to think that $15/hour sounds great. However, when one might pay high rent for a one-bedroom apartment, it's all relative.
From: Ontarian for STV in BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 April 2008 11:02 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that province needs to do something about the several thousand homeless Albertans living on the streets of Calgary, Edmonton etc. I read about a homeless man somewhere in Alberta recently who was beaten to death by drunken louts.

With all that oil wealth in Alberta, and being given away to wealthy foreigners, there shouldn't be any homelessness, or hard-working people crammed together in small and rundown apartments, or sky-high university tuition fees. And Alberta's conservatives have no business sending Canadians to the U.S. for medical care because they can't afford to build hospitals and hire a few doctors. Alberta's conservatives have no business allowing Exxon-Imperial and friends to transform that province into a toxic waste dump while producing so little to show for it.

At one time in Canada, political conservatives believed in public ownership and actually did demonstrate a keen business sense when in government. Not any more.

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 26 April 2008 11:39 AM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks again Polly. That was good information and complements my statistics canada files. I am going to clip it and save it.

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 April 2008 11:52 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bruce_the_vii:

The defacto minimum wage is critical to the working poor but even on rabble here the fact that it's $13 in Grande Prairie won't attract much interest. However, it's my thing. And my selling point.

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


I'm not sure what it is you're selling, Bruce. As a unique experiment in NeoLiberal ideology, our two old line parties have worked to divide Canada into a number of decentralized territoires and provinces and promoting North-South trade with the U.S. instead of East-West cooperation across Canada. Our NeoLiberal Central Bank policies reflect Ottawa's willingness to allow one provincial economy to soar while punishing all the rest if inflation leaks out of Alberta. It seems we have two wings of the same party working to maintain Canada's subserviant role as America's gas tank. And we have some of the developed world's worst child poverty rates to show for it.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Yibpl
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posted 26 April 2008 12:40 PM      Profile for Yibpl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
When I was in Calgary over Xmas there was a HUGE help wanted sign at the Superstore. 10+ foot painted letters across the front glass over the doors: "Night Shift $16 something".

And when I was in the seafood section I had to try about 4 or 5 workers to find someone who had enough facility in english to understand my pretty simple question nad bring me to a product.


I applied there and found out the advertised $16xx/hr was if you stayed for a certain number of months, received a certain performance rating ...


From: Urban Alberta, wishing I was in Kananaskis | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 26 April 2008 01:00 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for post about the superstore advertisement. These are interesting stories.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 April 2008 01:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The grand plan amounts to gentrification of rundown neighborghoods in feeding real estate speculation and phony-baloney economy. And let marauding multinationals siphon off more of our fossil fuels. Stoogeocracies are not very complicated.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 26 April 2008 01:37 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Fidel:

I'm actually selling myself as an activist. I have a plan for the economy, just-in-time immigration. It's pretty simple but would bring half the country up to Alberta's level of performance. I'm actually known across the country for this and have support in the federal caucuses, especially the Liberals. I'm actually in an interesting position. I come on Babble to practice my salesmanship.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 April 2008 02:13 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's swell, Bruce. Because the Liberals practiced anything but JITI. After twelve years in power, their legacy was several hundred thousand unprocessed immigration visas and too many well-educated foreigners underemployed and unemployed.

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 26 April 2008 04:57 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What I took away from my visit to Calgary is what a dynamite place to go if you are an immigrant with virtually no language skills.

Working for $13/$14 in Superstore as a starter job- with better opportunities withing months- sure beats being exploited in the garment districts, janitor and convenience store jobs of Toronto. Doesn't matter how much rents are- you live in a little dive until you can afford better.


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bruce_the_vii
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posted 26 April 2008 05:40 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's correct Fidel, they weren't exactly good managers. As a result they won't be talking in public.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 26 April 2008 05:45 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Ken:

What you say is correct. Conditions in Toronto are not good but apartments in Alberta are pricy.

However going forward there's room to be optomistic. Not only is there going to be growth but there is going to be mass retirement from good jobs. There is going to be a lot of people hired to good jobs but it may take time and effort.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 April 2008 07:57 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bruce_the_vii:
That's correct Fidel, they weren't exactly good managers. As a result they won't be talking in public.

No offense intended, but I think that's a poor choice of words to describe well educated people who've come here to work and live. But I am glad you're working for the Liberal Party.

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 26 April 2008 11:01 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You mean that immigrants not doing well should not be called economic management? As an activist I've talked to rather a lot of immigrants and they call the good life "reality". I was talking to one today and I said a $13 minimum wage was an improvement and he said "oh, thanks". I have some heated political support from the federal Liberal backbench, it's something of a scandal.

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 April 2008 11:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Canada is now and will continue to compete with other rich countries for well educated immigrants. Personally, I don't believe stealing highly educated and skilled immigrants from countries that need them can be good for those countries in the long run. But I also believe that free labour markets should include worker's rights to live and work in any country they want to. And there should be certain minimum standards of living for which no Canadian citizen should have to live below. Decent housing, access to education and health care are high on the list. But the right to participate fully in the economy and to use the skills they've worked hard to acquire should also be included. For certain professionals coming to Canada, the certification and accreditation process is too much a gauntlet of red tape and expensive bureaucracy.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
KeyStone
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posted 04 May 2008 09:00 PM      Profile for KeyStone     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's nice to see the general, starting wage going up and I realize there are plenty of jobs that pay a decent starting wage starting out.

But it really doesn't alleviate a need for a minimum wage. Sure, Alberta is the free market dream that every government chases after (albeit at the expense of the environment) but not everyone is going to get that job that pays $13. Some people will run out of time and get stuck at a job paying $6 an hour. Some employers won't bother giving out raises to employees who have been earning $8 for the past two years.

Relying on the free market to make sure everyone gets paid a decent wage may occasionally work in a fluke economic climate. But more often that not, someone slips through the cracks. And a minimum wage of $5 in a province that expensive is absurd.

If all the jobs pay 13$ then what's the problem with a $10 legal minimum wage?


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 May 2008 09:50 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by KeyStone:

If all the jobs pay 13$ then what's the problem with a $10 legal minimum wage?


You could be about to receive some strange answers to this question. But basically the two old line parties and their friends in big business want to be able to take advantage of wage disparities in Canada in a similar way they do in the thirdworld. They want to be able to play one province off against another. They want Albertans to think they're getting a good deal for the oil when, in fact, they're being robbed blind. It's all about maintaining inequality in a Canada while MNC's take valuble fossil fuels and raw materials off our hands for a song, and it's our two old line parties' jobs to make sure it happens and that we don't start dealing like shrewd socialists for what belongs to all Canadians. Divide and conquer, and Canada owning the second-largest low wage, non-unionized workforce among richest countries is a small part of that imperial-colonial arrangement we have with corporate America.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 06 May 2008 12:26 AM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Keystone:

The $13 an hour in Grande Prairie is the defacto minimum wage. It's generally available and people can move to a job that pays that if their employer is really backward.

In Toronto the minimum wage is actually $9 to $10. I work at a warehouse that pays that and they have to because people won't stay for less. Below that you get high turnover. The donut shops and gas stations pay a dollar less but they have to moil the immigrant work force for people who fit in.

Minimum wage has always been very low in Canada and just affects the worst off and the worst businesses. It's a low fence to give a little organization to the very bottom. In fact the market actually is a better bet for minimum wage earners like myself.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
huberman
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posted 06 May 2008 01:31 PM      Profile for huberman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here are professor(s) in Alberta making Walmart wages (or less than min. wage if you convert their salary per course to hourly wages?):

http://www.savedube.com/
http://www.savedube.com/Opinions.html
http://www.savedube.com/Important_Info.html

Also consider that these 'sessional instructors' do not have access to EI and maternity benefits (which Walmart workers can access).


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bruce_the_vii
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posted 06 May 2008 11:48 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a site that reports minimum wages around the world. I believe it's union funded. Certainly is comprehensive. Puts Australian minimum wage at $13.80

http://www.ilo.org/travaildatabase/servlet/minimumwages


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 07 May 2008 11:53 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The City of Calgary is moving ahead on a "living wage" policy for companies providing services to the city. Last I heard they were suggesting $13.25 an hour.
From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 07 May 2008 03:51 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the information. It's likely they pretty much have to pay that anyway. Sometimes these big organizations are a little out of the loop of the actual labour market.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 14 May 2008 03:18 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I waa looking at Statistics Canada data for Grande Praire and men are going much better than woman.

......Median 2005 earnings of
..... people with income

Men.....$49,719

Woman...$21,640

As a percent, men earn 230% what women make.

The $21,640 is not very strong showing even if a lot are voluntary part timers.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Nam
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posted 17 May 2008 02:57 PM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
The City of Calgary is moving ahead on a "living wage" policy for companies providing services to the city. Last I heard they were suggesting $13.25 an hour.

Well, actually this initiative is stalled at the moment - council ordered some review and it will be brought back in the fall.

The larger question of what the "real" minimum wage is, at least in Calgary, can be helped be some useful stats culled from StatsCan by Vibrant Communities Calgary. It shows that almost 75,000 Calgarians were earning less than $12.00/hour, and over 145,000 Calgarians were earning less than $15.00/hour. All this from a workforce of just over 560,000, so 26% of working Calgarians earn under $15.00/hour. These stats are from 2007. Quite frankly, all the streets are not paved with gold here, but you'd be hard-pressed to discover that as one must step over lots of people sleeping on the streets.

[ 17 May 2008: Message edited by: Nam ]


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 18 May 2008 04:02 AM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the data. I will look it up.

The labour market is actually tighter in Grande Prairie and Red Deer than in Calgary and Edmonton by a few percentage points. This might make a difference to minimum wage.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 19 May 2008 03:51 AM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read that report twice as it was very interesting. About 13% of the Calgary labour force is working for less than $12. This is quite high. These workers change jobs every four months, basically the worst employers live with high turn over in order to shave the wage $1 or $2. This indicates the labour markets in Calgary are not that tight, not as tight as Red Deer and Grande Prairie. It indicates that minimum wage is sensative to the tightness of the labour market.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 May 2008 03:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Should this thread be in the labour forum? This forum is supposed to be from a pro-worker point of view, and that's not what I'm seeing here. I'm seeing some neoliberal "selling" something, not sure what.

Should this be moved to the regional forum that includes Alberta, I wonder? Or should I just leave it here?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nam
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posted 21 May 2008 07:07 AM      Profile for Nam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bruce_the_vii:
This indicates the labour markets in Calgary are not that tight, not as tight as Red Deer and Grande Prairie. It indicates that minimum wage is sensative to the tightness of the labour market.

At least one other interpretation is available. Classic economic theory would hold that when the demand for labour goes up, with a low supply, prices (wages) should go up also. This has not happened widely in Calgary, at least at the low-wage end of the market. Many Calgarians are getting huge pay increases, but I feel it is a case of the rich getting richer while the poor stay poor. My belief is employers pay low wages because they can, it creates a permanent underclass of low-wage slaves and our government is quite happy for this to continue.


From: Calgary-Land of corporate towers | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michael Hardner
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posted 21 May 2008 09:15 AM      Profile for Michael Hardner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Fidel,

quote:
I think Canada is now and will continue to compete with other rich countries for well educated immigrants.

I suppose you're right, but the question is "why" ? They can't get jobs very easily here, and often end up in low paying jobs.

If you're in many industries, such as legal, medical, engineering then you might as well stay home.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yibpl
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posted 21 May 2008 02:40 PM      Profile for Yibpl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Should this thread be ... moved to the regional forum that includes Alberta, I wonder? Or should I just leave it here?

Hey, what's good for Alberta is good for Canada!

Surely the most local minutia in Alberta is of interest to the nation, I mean after all WE are the center of the universe, right? Are we not the cultural, educational, intellectual hub of the country?

[ 21 May 2008: Message edited by: Yibpl ]

[ 21 May 2008: Message edited by: Yibpl ]


From: Urban Alberta, wishing I was in Kananaskis | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 21 May 2008 03:14 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Nam.

I think the defacto minimum wage in Calgary for people that will stay a year would be $12 compared to $10 in Toronto. I got Alberta's median wage from Statistics Canada, you have to pay for it, and the $12 minimum wage indicates a firming relative to the median - as compared to Toronto. It's 58% compared to 51%.

The median wage in Alberta as on March is $20.51, $1.26 more than Toronto. Most people are living average wages.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 21 May 2008 03:17 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm selling tightening the labour markets to raise minimum wage. Grande Prairie and Red Deer's experience indicates it goes up from Ontario's $8.75 to $13 - a raise of 48%. Michelle is, like, this is not revolution. Revolution. And labour. Minimum wage has nothing to do with labour. We're proworker here. And Pro-Michelle. And about the difference between self absorption and moral superiority.

[ 21 May 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]

[ 22 May 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]

[ 22 May 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 21 May 2008 05:18 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm seeing some neoliberal "selling" something, not sure what.

Now a revolutionary like Michelle would call the forums funders and her benefactor, the unions, neolibs or even neocons. One day they'll just cut the board off as not particularly popular.

[ 21 May 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 21 May 2008 07:21 PM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's like 20 or 30 posters here that set the tone, extremism, and won't communicate particularly. That's out of a Canadian population of 33 million.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 May 2008 08:19 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
Hey Fidel, I suppose you're right, but the question is "why" ? They can't get jobs very easily here, and often end up in low paying jobs.

If you're in many industries, such as legal, medical, engineering then you might as well stay home.


I think part of the answer comes from a Ryerson Polytechnique study on Asia's "turtles" emigres to Canada. Since the mid 1990's or so, somewhere around 650, 000 first and even second generation immigrants have gone back to Asia, and many of them are well educated. The returnees cited similar reasons for leaving. One young couple came here from China with degrees in-hand, economics if I recall. He received a scholarship to go to Boston University for graduate studies. After that they moved to British Columbia and found zero opportunities in their field. They took up mushroom farming, but that flopped. The same Chinese-Canadian couple said they loved B.C. and Canada in general for its natural beauty and wide-open spaces. Nothing happening though, so they moved back to China. And there were similar hard-luck stories.

Since 2005, Canada has become a hewer and drawer economy, once again. So much for NAFTA. We need real leadership in this country, and as Duncan Cameron said, we need a Keynesian revival if we are to afford investments necessary for people and green infrastructure. In other words, those things which will support and drive a viable future economy. I think we need a competitive electoral system before we are able to make Canada's a top ten most competitive economy. Right now with our dual old line party system of governance, there is no incentive to create transparent government, and no incentive for Canada to be anything more than Uncle Sam's gas tank. Our big-huge country is just a vast repository of energy and mineral wealth for corporate America to raid at will. Our's has become a weak branch plant economy since FTA-NAFTA.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
bruce_the_vii
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posted 22 May 2008 01:42 AM      Profile for bruce_the_vii     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

[ 21 May 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]

[ 22 May 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ][/qb]


[ 22 May 2008: Message edited by: bruce_the_vii ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 23 May 2008 06:47 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
...study on Asia's "turtles" emigres to Canada.

Fidel, please stop with using insulting/racist terms. You have a tendency to insult and degrade minorities. Please stop.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 23 May 2008 10:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And I'm going to start complaining about you to the moderators if you keep it up.

Canada's immigration exodus

quote:
There's a word going around Canada's Chinese community these days: hai gui. It means "overseas returnees," and it is meant to sound like the Mandarin word for sea turtles, those creatures of the temperate seas that can travel hundreds, even thousands of kilometres, but are ineluctably drawn back to the beaches where they were born.

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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