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Author Topic: Criticisms of Obama from the left
Left Turn
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posted 07 November 2008 05:03 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There seems to be an opinion held by a lot of more liberal minded babblers, as well as some liberal minded writers, that criticisms of Obama from the left in the wake of the Obama victory, are just as bad as openly racist criticisms of Obama. I think this opinion is faulty.

The election of Obama does have symbolic significance, first and foremost for African Americans, but also for other marginalized groups as well. This significance needs to be recognized. However, it also needs to be recognized that the significance of Obama's victory is purely symbolic. Because of the platform on which Obama ran, and because the progressive social movements in the US overwhelmingly fell in line with Obama and the Democrats in this election cycle, the election of Obama represents a victory for the American ruling class in their class war against the American working class.

There is nothing wrong with pointing this out in the wake of the Obama victory. While racist critiques of Obama need to be opposed, Obama does not deserve immunity from all criticisms during the period following his election, simply because he is Africna-American. The American ruling class does not deserve the immunity from criticism that such an approach would grant them.

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: Left Turn ]


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 07 November 2008 05:19 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you have any examples where someone has equated criticizing Obama from the left, to criticizing him from a position of open racism?

I worked on the Obama campaign and as an American, I am really excited about his victory. Moreover, from what I have read on babble, I think that many of the posters who have criticized Obama from the left lack a sense of the pragmatic realities of U.S. politics. I think they have also failed to fully grasp the "symbolic significance," as you put it, that a nation originally founded on slavery has actually elected a black president.

That being said, I wouldn't call those posters racist, either, nor would I suggest their critiques were at all intellectually equivalent to such a position. Certainly those posters are horribly misguided, and probably irreconcilable cranks, too. But they're not racists.


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
genstrike
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posted 07 November 2008 05:25 PM      Profile for genstrike   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would agree that there is some symbolic significance, but I would argue that the negatives of that significance alone outweigh the positives.

The symbolic significance doesn't really help the average person of colour in the US, aside from maybe another person of colour has the opportunity and the support from the ruling class to run for President because (s?)he won't have to deal with that "Is America ready" shit. But other than that, the material conditions of people on the ground won't improve any just because of some symbolism.

On the other hand, this will only reinforce the widely held misconception, especially among white people, that racism is over and anyone who brings it up is just "race-baiting" because clearly there is no such thing as racism anymore, aside from perhaps a few silly people in northern Idaho. It could potentially encourage passivity in actual anti-racist organizing.


From: winnipeg | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 07 November 2008 05:30 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the record, I'm fine with criticism of Obama from the left, and will be engaging in it myself.
The need for pressure and mobilization, now that there's space for growth, is crucial.

From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 November 2008 05:55 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When Kim Campbell became Prime Minister of Canada it was of great symbolic importance also. For the first time ever a woman was permitted by the white male capitalist establishment to assume the most powerful political position in the country.

Now for the first time ever a black man has been permitted by the white male capitalist establishment in the United States to assume the most powerful political position in the country. This is also of great symbolic importance.

What will be Obomba's legacy for African-Americans? It remains to be seen whether it will be any different from Kim Campbell's legacy for Canadian women.

But great symbolic importance? Hell, yes.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 07 November 2008 06:16 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
There seems to be an opinion held by a lot of more liberal minded babblers...

Name three. Posts like this that pretend to counter some fictitious position held by "babblers" that remain unnamed are getting beyond tedious. This is baiting. In other words, your premise is dishonest.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 November 2008 06:59 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
Name three.
I can't speak for Left Turn, but I couldn't name one babbler, let alone three.

I could, however, name at least one babbler who thinks that white males who criticize Obomba from the left are merely doing so because they fear that he is a threat to white male hegemony, and that their criticisms can therefore be dismissed out of hand. That, to my mind, is perilously close to accusations of racism and seeking to preserve white privilege.

It's also highly insulting to the intelligence of everybody to maintain with a straight face that the election of Obomba poses the slightest threat to the white male plutocracy that runs the US Democratic Party (and financed most of Obomba's campaign), or US society itself.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 07 November 2008 07:06 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
I could, however, name at least one babbler who thinks that white males who criticize Obomba (sic) from the left are merely doing so because they fear that he is a threat to white male hegemony, and that their criticisms can therefore be dismissed out of hand.

That has nothing to do with what I posted. And don't use me as a prop in your grudge match with someone who hasn't even posted in this thread. That's dishonest, too.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 07 November 2008 07:11 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm certainly not a man (or "male") though I am mostly what is called "white". There is some African ancestry via the Carribean, and no doubt some Aboriginal ancestry via the Québécois branch of family, but I won't pretend to be of colour despite nappy hair.

But I have no truck with bourgeois politics, or USian exceptionalism. I have close ties with militants in the US, and I am well aware both of the searing wound racism is there for any working class movement or working class politics.

But working class politics means breaking with capitalist parties, eh? It saddens me to see people who were on the left falling into backing the party that got the US into Vietnam.

Hey Hey LBJ
How many kids have you killed today?

Yep, I'm old enough to remember that, though I was a young teen.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 November 2008 07:26 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
That has nothing to do with what I posted.
It has lots to do with the topic of this thread.

You were the one who asked for the naming of babblers. Now you respond with personal insults when someone complies with your request.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 November 2008 07:29 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta, I want to bear your children.

(But they're probably too heavy.)


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 07 November 2008 07:40 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Now you respond with personal insults when someone complies with your request.

Just 'cos it's an insult doesn't mean it's not true. You didn't respond to the question I asked. You made up a question and responded to that instead. I just happen to have the mouth you tried to stuff the question into. You do that all the time and that's why I mostly avoid you. It's a practice I believe I'll resume.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 07 November 2008 07:46 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ce qui frappe autour d'Obama, c'est la projection délirante que les gens font au sujet de sa mince victoire (6% du vote, surtout de nouveaux électeurs). Pour les Noirs, je comprends l'importance de ce passage, après des siècles d'esclavage, de discrimination et de mépris qui continuent. En fait, leur émotion n'est pas très différente des applaudissements de la collectivité noire américaine quand O.J. Simpson a été acquitté il y a 12 ans. Pour une fois, un Noir échappait au laminoir du racisme, un Noir "gagnait" contre le système blanc, même si tout le monde savait que c'était un assassin. Sa victoire rachetait le meurtre de tous les autres, condamnés d'avance à cause de la couleur de leur peau ou envoyés comme chair à canon au Vietnam.
Donc, ce n'est pas la qualité d'Obama qui a été réellement applaudie - c'est un conservateur populiste avec de bons speechwriters - mais bien un certain recul du racisme et l'avancée des espoirs du peuple afro-américain, bien plus loin que ce qu'avait autorisé la nomination de Clarence Campbell, Colin Powell ou Condoleeza Rice.
Mais il y a autre chose. Beaucoup de Blancs se réjouissent, malgré leur racisme - maintenant déplacé sur les Arabes -, du succès d'Obama. Pourquoi? Parce que la perspective d'un changement de cap nous déculpabilise. Elle nous rassure que ces États-Unis, dont nous tettons la culture et les valeurs comme un porcelet sa mère, ne sont pas ces fascistes finis qui emprisonnent des adolescents, bafouent les conventions internationales, torturent aux quatre coins de planète, écrasent des populations civiles sous les bombes, polluent la planète sans dérougir et sont en train de jeter à terre notre avenir économique en engraissant leurs banquiers et p.d.g. d'entreprises.
La mode Obama, c'est le retour d'un sourire sur le visage du père Fouettard, un leader charismatique pour faire passer la pilule. On veut tellement croire à une moralité des États-Unis - pour qu'ils n'aillent pas plus loin dans l'immoralité - qu'on affirme n'importe quoi, alors même que l'homme au sourire crédible annonce l'escalade des frappes américaines contre l'Afghanistan, le Pakistan, l'Iran?...

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 November 2008 07:55 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
You didn't respond to the question I asked.
You asked for the names of babblers who believe that criticisms of Obama from the left in the wake of the Obama victory, are just as bad as openly racist criticisms of Obama. I answered that question by saying I couldn't name any. I then pointed out that that doesn't end the matter because some babblers hold positions that are perilously close to that one.

I answered your question. You just didn't like the answer. I didn't try to put any words into your mouth at all. I take full responsibility for all the words I posted in that post.

quote:
You do that all the time and that's why I mostly avoid you. It's a practice I believe I'll resume.
Try to imagine my disappointment.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 November 2008 07:58 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
... bien plus loin que ce qu'avait autorisé la nomination de Clarence Campbell...
Clarence Thomas, peut-être?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 07 November 2008 07:59 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Martin, that's brilliant, great insight, I agree 100%.

Except it's Clarence Thomas, not Clarence Campbell - although that Freudian slip was brilliant too, given the Maurice Richard riot and the parallel with the phenomenon you're describing.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 07 November 2008 09:24 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks. I corrected that and e-mailed the piece to th dailies. (yeah, Mr. Campbell is still stuck in our collective throat...)
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 07 November 2008 11:10 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Ce qui frappe autour d'Obama, c'est la projection délirante que les gens font au sujet de sa mince victoire (6% du vote, surtout de nouveaux électeurs). Pour les Noirs, je comprends l'importance de ce passage, après des siècles d'esclavage, de discrimination et de mépris qui continuent. En fait, leur émotion n'est pas très différente des applaudissements de la collectivité noire américaine quand O.J. Simpson a été acquitté il y a 12 ans. Pour une fois, un Noir échappait au laminoir du racisme, un Noir "gagnait" contre le système blanc, même si tout le monde savait que c'était un assassin. Sa victoire rachetait le meurtre de tous les autres, condamnés d'avance à cause de la couleur de leur peau ou envoyés comme chair à canon au Vietnam.
Donc, ce n'est pas la qualité d'Obama qui a été réellement applaudie - c'est un conservateur populiste avec de bons speechwriters - mais bien un certain recul du racisme et l'avancée des espoirs du peuple afro-américain, bien plus loin que ce qu'avait autorisé la nomination de Clarence Campbell, Colin Powell ou Condoleeza Rice.
Mais il y a autre chose. Beaucoup de Blancs se réjouissent, malgré leur racisme - maintenant déplacé sur les Arabes -, du succès d'Obama. Pourquoi? Parce que la perspective d'un changement de cap nous déculpabilise. Elle nous rassure que ces États-Unis, dont nous tettons la culture et les valeurs comme un porcelet sa mère, ne sont pas ces fascistes finis qui emprisonnent des adolescents, bafouent les conventions internationales, torturent aux quatre coins de planète, écrasent des populations civiles sous les bombes, polluent la planète sans dérougir et sont en train de jeter à terre notre avenir économique en engraissant leurs banquiers et p.d.g. d'entreprises.
La mode Obama, c'est le retour d'un sourire sur le visage du père Fouettard, un leader charismatique pour faire passer la pilule. On veut tellement croire à une moralité des États-Unis - pour qu'ils n'aillent pas plus loin dans l'immoralité - qu'on affirme n'importe quoi, alors même que l'homme au sourire crédible annonce l'escalade des frappes américaines contre l'Afghanistan, le Pakistan, l'Iran?...


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 07 November 2008 11:33 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

Name three. Posts like this that pretend to counter some fictitious position held by "babblers" that remain unnamed are getting beyond tedious. This is baiting. In other words, your premise is dishonest.


I won't name three, but I will say that anyone who supports the arguments made in the Tim Wise article basically holds that position, because that is basically Tim Wise's position.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 08 November 2008 10:30 AM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The biggest danger and most scariest prospect is that Obama will turn out to be a Manchurian Candidate for the Liberal-Left (as opposed to a Manchurian candidate that right-wingers got themselves into a lather about). He will like Clinton, suck up all the oxygen on the Left, while giving fresh blood to Bush economic and foreign policies.

This has been demonstrated throughout the campaign where he has tilted further and further to the right when he came under attack by the corporate media or his own right-wing opponents. Now that he faces the toughest prospects of any incoming president since the great depression, we will see his true colours.

Oddly, his identity and the enormous goodwill he enjoys may in fact serve as an invulnerable teflon camouflage for this basic impulse, especially among the young generation who have their new rock star messiah. Black Agenda Report has been ringing this alarm bell for some time on this issue. Check them out.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 08 November 2008 10:33 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Thanks. I corrected that and e-mailed the piece to th dailies. (yeah, Mr. Campbell is still stuck in our collective throat...)

Martin, please - pretty please - when you have time, do an English version. I'd do it myself, but I don't want to miss any of the flavour.

All our previous disagreements are forgotten. Do it! You owe it to babble.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 08 November 2008 11:34 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No time today: I am mothballing the "chalet", packing up and moving back to Montreal for the winter... after a boar mechoui!
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 12:45 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The intellectuals who, in the name of ‘realism’, support a politician who publicly and openly embraces new wars, billionaire bailouts and for profit, private sector-run health programs are repudiating their own claims as ‘responsible critics’. They are what C. Wright Mills called ‘crackpot realists’, abdicating their responsibility as critical intellectuals. In purporting to support the ‘lesser evil’ they are promoting the ‘greater evil’: The continuation of four more years of deepening recession, colonial wars and popular alienation. Moreover, they are allies of the mass media, major parties and the legal system which has marginalized or outright excluded the alternative candidates, Ralph Nader and Cynthia McKinney, who do speak out and oppose the war, the pro-Wall Street bailouts and propose genuine large-scale public investment in the domestic economy, a universal single payer health program, sustainable and pro-environment economic policies and large-scale, long-term income redistributive policies.

What is crass and unacceptable is the argument of these intellectuals, (an insignificant pimple on the Democratic donkey’s rear-end) that for a single moment believe that their ‘critical support’ of the Obama political machine will open space for radical ideas. The Zionists and civilian militarists totally control Obama’s war policy in the Middle East: There will be no space for peace with Iran, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iraq. Wall Street controls the Obama’s financial policy: There will be no space for some Cambridge progressive to sneak in a handout for families losing their homes.

If multi-million trade union treasuries have spent a hundred million dollars on each presidential campaign have failed to secure a single piece of progressive legislation in over 50 years, isn’t it delusional for our progressive ‘public intellectuals’ to imagine that they, in their splendid organizational isolation, can ‘pressure’ President Obama to renounce his advisers, backers and public defense of military escalation, to see his way to peace with Iran and to promote social justice for our workers and unemployed?


James Petras

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
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posted 08 November 2008 01:46 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So i guess there is just no hope at all then.
From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 08 November 2008 02:01 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given the definition of hope on this board, not a lot in general, and almost none on foreign policy.

What can we hope for? The main thing is the clean up of DOJ. That will trigger the enfranchisement of a lot of people currently shut out of voting.

The shit may have hit the fan with enough force in the economy to send some people to jail and make it clear what is happening there. With luck Obama may be forced to go that route.

What we have avoided with Obama's victory is the road to Gilead.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 02:04 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hope is for the hopeless.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
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posted 08 November 2008 02:14 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really think you must have that backwards or something.
From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
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posted 08 November 2008 02:21 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I mean it sounds like what the Obama "realists" are saying, is that the election process is totally managed and controlled--meaning that no candidate who is not a corporate proxy could ever be elected. And that there's no way that any real progressive could bust into that system.

So that's it then right? We're all fucked, and there's no pointing in even trying? We may as well just all accept that we are under control. Change is just not possible.

Anyone want to endorse that?


From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mc'lovin
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posted 08 November 2008 02:22 PM      Profile for Mc'lovin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
he finds cynicism funny - hahaha
From: canada | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
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posted 08 November 2008 02:31 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cynicism has advantages and disadvantages just like any other perspective.

I just want to make sure my cynicism serves me rather than the opposite.


From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 08 November 2008 02:45 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Change is just not possible.

I think you should re-read the article posted by Spector. In particular, "... Ralph Nader and Cynthia McKinney, who do speak out and oppose the war, the pro-Wall Street bailouts and propose genuine large-scale public investment in the domestic economy, a universal single payer health program, sustainable and pro-environment economic policies and large-scale, long-term income redistributive policies."

It is unreasonable to demand change from the guardians of the status-quo.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
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posted 08 November 2008 03:00 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nader and McKinney are saying great things--but they're running in the same electoral system as Obama and McCain. What level of support do you think the Green party can get before being co opted? Our Green Party leader endorsed the Liberal leader and they're cracking 7%. You don't like how watered the NDP policies are at 18%. Once a politial party reaches a certain size, in come the hacks. You know this.

So how can i look at Nader and McKinney as any kind of solution? They're only able to say those things because they have very little support.


From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 08 November 2008 03:47 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by wage zombie:
Nader and McKinney are saying great things--
Don't know about McKinny, but Nader is saying "great things" like calling Obama "Uncle Tom".

quote:
but they're running in the same electoral system as Obama and McCain. What level of support do you think the Green party can get before being co opted?
One wonders how some seem to fail to take this into consideration, eh?!

quote:
how can i look at Nader and McKinney as any kind of solution?
One can't realistically and honestlty, but some sure like to tilt at their windmills.

Moreover, when Nader is on Fox news spewing racist trash at Obama, why would one to look there anyway?

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 03:51 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Don't know anout McKinny, but Nader is anyway, "great things" like calling Obama "Uncle Tom".
This is a scurrilous lie promulgated by Faux News.

Interesting to see you acting as their mouthpiece here.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 08 November 2008 04:07 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for providing the proof of this, mspector, so I did not have to go and find the thread it was in.

quote:
Try reading what Nader actually said rather than hearing what Fox News wanted you to hear:

Fox News: Guess who’s here? The Independent party candidate, Ralph Nader. This is his second run for the Presidency since he played spoiler in the close 2000 contest. This year he was on the ballot in 45 states plus D.C. This year he was polling about 1-percent. Ralph, you spoke to Fox News Radio’s Houston affiliate today, and said this:

Ralph Nader: To put it very simply, he is our first African American president; or he will be. And we wish him well. But his choice, basically, is whether he’s going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations.


Yep, I did read that yet again, and just as it did the couple other times I read it, it has Nader using a racist term in respect to Obama.

quote:
Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 04:10 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
This is a scurrilous lie promulgated by Faux News.

Interesting to see you acting as their mouthpiece here.


His actual words:

But his choice, basically, is whether he’s going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations.


Not exactly a whole lot better. It was still a completely asshole and idiotic way to convey his message.

The point is, stuff like this isn't going to win you any favor and it's not the first time he's acted and sounded like a arrogant jerk.
His message is good and sound, delivery...not so great.
Might be appealing to some because of him 'sticking it to the man and speaking the truth'

If I sit down and read Nadar's positions I'm well impressed and they fit with my viewpoint on a whole lot of things. If I listen to him or see how he goes about expressing them, its a real turn off.
If I as someone who actually thinks he's right has problems with it I can't imagine what people who are needing to politically convinced to support him think.


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jrootham
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posted 08 November 2008 04:12 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Conditionally, and I suspect Nader knows how insulting it is, which is kind of his point.

Nader's being a little formally logical in his language, but it seems clear that it is not having the effect he wants (which is for Obama NOT to be an Uncle Tom).


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 04:17 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
Conditionally, and I suspect Nader knows how insulting it is, which is kind of his point.

Nader's being a little formally logical in his language, but it seems clear that it is not having the effect he wants (which is for Obama NOT to be an Uncle Tom).


Which goes to my point. Message good but the way it comes out discounts it and he comes off as being a smuck, except to his most diehard supporters.


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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 04:17 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nader's statement is racist. He wouldn't have said it about a white President-Elect. Period.

He lost my respect when he walked away from actually trying to build a third force in American politics, and ran a simple vanity campaign with no eye to the future.

This latest intervention is a sad, and I predict final, chapter in Nader's long and distinguished public life.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 04:21 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the cheerleaders for the Faux News school of falsification are out in force tonight.
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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 04:23 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, that's a very accurate description of my politics.

One doesn't have to support Faux to think racism is racist.


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 04:27 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Well, the cheerleaders for the Faux News school of falsification are out in force tonight.

Can you actually watch a video? Like see and hear things with your own eyes? Because I can and unless you are suggesting that Faux News used CGR and special effects to 'fake' what he said, he said it.
How in the heck is that being false? Did he say those comments or not?

Nice strawman though or maybe spin is a better word.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]


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jrootham
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posted 08 November 2008 04:32 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Nader's statement is racist. He wouldn't have said it about a white President-Elect. Period.


Why not? If I wanted to be really insulting in describing someone from an oppressed group sucking up to power that's the term I would use.

Is there a race neutral term with the same meaning that is anywhere near as insulting?


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Tommy_Paine
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posted 08 November 2008 04:34 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While a racist is always an idiot, not all idiots are racists.
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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 04:35 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about "suck up"? Toady? Stooge? Pawn? Sell-out? Bought and paid for? Corporate hack? Tool? Useful idiot?

Anything but racist insults?


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 04:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I kind of have a different take on the whole Nader statement. I think likely it was an explicit reference to racism, not racism per se. I think naturally this statement should have come from a member of the black community in the US. But I think that in the present circumstances any Black political activist would politically hamstrung to say anything of that nature. Furthermore, I don't think Nader would have got to make the point he made on Faux news had he said anything but something provocative and indeed, very nasty.

I think it was meant to hurt. And I think Obama was meant to hear it, as I am sure he did. But really, who else in the entire American political sphere is positioned to make that point, and get coverage on on Faux news, or anywhere?

Now, I would certainly not have said anything at all like that, but on the other hand, I think that Nader believed that the value of the political point, and gaining the platform to make it, outweighed othe considerations, and I am absolutely sure it did not come from a racist place, but from an old guard politician who is on the way out, and had one last opportunity to make a clear statement about the nature of race and racism in America and its relationship capitalism, in a sea of self-congratulation, fireworks and spectacle.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 04:37 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:

Why not? If I wanted to be really insulting in describing someone from an oppressed group sucking up to power that's the term I would use.

Is there a race neutral term with the same meaning that is anywhere near as insulting?


So then my question which is an issue that always comes up here, how 'progressive' is the use of 'ironic' racism to make a point?

And I can think of one, which would have the same meaning and speak to large audience who understand it, as well as it's use as an insult in the American myth and lexicon. "Benidict Arnold"


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Tommy_Paine
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posted 08 November 2008 04:38 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is there a race neutral term with the same meaning that is anywhere near as insulting?

Benedict Arnold?


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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 04:39 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cue, I think that is a really generous view of Nader's political acumen. And even if you're right, I still deplore it. It cheapens both race and class politics in the United States.
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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 04:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you saying to me that if Nader had said anything other than that, that his statement would have been covered, at all?
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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 04:44 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know. I think his decision to abandon building a viable third force in American politics is the main reason he would not be covered. When you can't get 1% of the vote, exactly how much air time have you earned?

But I suppose you're right. None of us would know who Howard Stern was if weren't for his blatant racism and sexism. Controversy sells.


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Tommy_Paine
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posted 08 November 2008 04:47 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it's hyperbolic to accuse someone of being a racist based on one comment, which may or may not have been ill considered.

I note in a quick bio of Nader ( I am becomming a wikiholic) that Nader's resume doesn't include anything on equal rights activism. But on the other hand, the intent of his consumer activism wasn't to limit it to white people, or wealthy people.

It was for everyone.

Nor does it say who Nader hires for his various Non Profit organizations, whether he is racist in that he only hires a certain race, or systematically excludes a certain race.

So, I don't know if Ralph Nader is a racist or not-- and I certainly wouldn't sum up a man's character based soley on his worst moment.

I think the word "racist" can be thrown around far too easily these days, and it will only serve to dillute the effect of the charge, eventually.


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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 04:49 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking for myself, I have never called Nader a racist. I deplored a racist statement that he made.
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jrootham
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posted 08 November 2008 04:54 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
How about "suck up"? Toady? Stooge? Pawn? Sell-out? Bought and paid for? Corporate hack? Tool? Useful idiot?

Anything but racist insults?


Those are useful, but, frankly, don't have the insult level. Racism is probably part of that equation.

Benedict Arnold might get to the same level of insult, but doesn't have quite the same meaning.


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 04:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Speaking for myself, I have never called Nader a racist. I deplored a racist statement that he made.

Race has been central to the theme of the entire campaign. In its positive cast it has been a symbolic struggle for the full enfranchisement of Black Americans, and this was very much the tenor of the whole election night coverage, even that coming from the defeated side. The establishment seems full prepared to rally round and use the momentum of this victory for Black people in the US, and make it their own.

In my view, Nader flipped the equation over to expose that reality. And I don't think anyone else was really positioned to do so, black or white.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 05:01 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Race being a theme is not a question. Questioning whether Obama will deliver for Black America is well within bounds.

Using racist terms to get there is not.

I can think of equivalent terms to be used in the First Nations context in Canada, and I'll tell you I would never say them.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:02 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
British right-wing assshole Stephen Pollard of the UK paper The Spectator has of course jumped on the "Nader = racist" bandwagon. One of his readers makes a very perceptive comment:
quote:
Here's another example of the American media playing childish games with semantics in order to manipulate the public. But, if the comment sections of left wing blogs indicates anything it is that this kind of thing works astoundingly well.

It makes me sad for the American people. There is so much truth in what Nader says but they just can't get past his perceived role as "spoiler" in elections where the two parties agree on what to debate and how to be different.

It also saddens me that people are so stupid these days. The last example of this media manipulation aptly occurred when Obama said that the Sarah Palin's nomination was to the McCain campaign like "putting lipstick on a pig." The fine folks over at Fox News claimed he was calling Sarah Palin a pig!



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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 05:05 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So the use of ironic racism by progressives is okay if it helps to get airtime in order to get the light shone on the message?
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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 05:06 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course right wing assholes are going to jump on a left winger saying something racist.

All the more reason NOT TO SAY SOMETHING RACIST.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:09 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, of course, the right wing assholes of Faux News and other media are the ultimate arbiters of what is and isn't racist, and can always be counted upon to expose racism wherever it may be lurking!
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Tommy_Paine
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posted 08 November 2008 05:09 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Speaking for myself, I have never called Nader a racist. I deplored a racist statement that he made.

It saddens me, really, that Nader would end on such a note.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:10 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It saddens me, really, that people who consider themselves progressive would fall for this crap.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 05:13 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Yes, of course, the right wing assholes of Faux News and other media are the ultimate arbiters of what is and isn't racist, and can always be counted upon to expose racism wherever it may be lurking!

Spector. Hi. I'm Coyote. You might remember me: we've posted on the same board for years. You might also remember that I don't base my opinions on what Fox News says. Shockingly, I come to my own judgement on issues. On this one, I think the statement is racist because of the racism contained within it, not because Fox News jumped on it. You think it's not racist because, I guess, Fox News says it is.

That's your perogative. But quit telling me why I think what I think. I've been pretty effin' consistent my entire LIFE what I think about playing with racist and sexist stereotypes by the Left. I'm against it. Because of the racism/sexism.

Whether Fox News reports it or not.


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djelimon
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posted 08 November 2008 05:17 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The "Obama's talking white" thing?

Felt it to be offensive myself, but hey, I'm just a mutt like Obama, what does my gut know?

Of course I heard right-wing assholes like Limbaugh say the exact same thing, and it bothered me then too.

Sort of like when I tell some people I'm from Jamaica and they (not Jamaicans mind you) get all offended that I'm not throwing big ups and burning a spliff all the time.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:19 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Spector. Hi. I'm Coyote. You might remember me: we've posted on the same board for years.
Yeah, I remember you.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 05:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Of course right wing assholes are going to jump on a left winger saying something racist.

All the more reason NOT TO SAY SOMETHING RACIST.


Well, I am not entirely sure it was racist. The statement was:

"Barak Obama can be Uncle Sam for Americans, or Uncle Tom for the corporations."

It's defintely provocative and offensive, and plays on the ever present theme of black enfranchisement, but that was a good portion of the Obama election theme anyway. But Nader did not say that "Barak Obama was an Uncle Tom".


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 05:19 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
It saddens me, really, that people who consider themselves progressive would fall for this crap.

It saddens me really that people that consider themselves progressives would think that other people who consider themselves progressives can't actually hear or read something with their own eyes and use there own brains to make up there own minds.

Who here read or heard the right wingnut spin and said, "Oh golly gee. Look at that. I never would have considered it that way unless you saintly people told me too. You are so right. I am corrected' Hands anyone?

Spector you can keep spinning all you want that everyone here is only parroting Faux news if it makes you feel better but that doesn't make it true.

Nadar said it. It's on camera. It's open for interpretation with or without the nutter spin.


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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 05:22 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Yeah, I remember you.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


Ooh, you're so clever!

I remember you, too.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:22 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, pardon my ignorance, but what is the politically correct term for a black person who does the bidding of white corporate America to the detriment of his fellow African-Americans?
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wage zombie
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posted 08 November 2008 05:22 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It makes me sad for the American people. There is so much truth in what Nader says but they just can't get past his perceived role as "spoiler" in elections where the two parties agree on what to debate and how to be different.

It's the people's fault! They should be supporting Ralph Nader! If only people supported Nader, he would be relevant!


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 05:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I remember both of you.
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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 05:23 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If it's not racist, Cue, what's offensive about it?
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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 05:23 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:


It's defintely provocative and offensive, and plays on the ever present theme of black enfranchisement, but that was a good portion of the Obama election theme anyway. But Nader did not say that "Barak Obama was an Uncle Tom".


You are right he didn't and if you look upthread his actual comment was posted and is the one being discussed. Not that he said Obama was an Uncle Tom.


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 05:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
If it's not racist, Cue, what's offensive about it?

It's offensive in the same manner as making an objection at a wedding is offensive, or saying the King has no clothes. But he did not say the King has no clothes, he said the King can get a new tailor or stick with the ones he has.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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djelimon
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posted 08 November 2008 05:29 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW, pardon my ignorance, but what is the politically correct term for a black person who does the bidding of white corporate America to the detriment of his fellow African-Americans?

Office worker


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Coyote
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posted 08 November 2008 05:29 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha! Well, that's one perspective. I think it's offensive like Howard Stern is offensive.
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wage zombie
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posted 08 November 2008 05:31 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

It's offensive in the same manner as making an objection at a wedding is offensive.

Yeah, i agree, i think the term you used in the other thread was "tasteless".

Nader does not know how to reach people anymore.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:33 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by djelimon:
Office worker
Do all black office workers act to the detriment of their fellow African-Americans? Of course not.

You can't think of an appropriate answer to my original question, I take it.

Anyone else?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 08 November 2008 05:33 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Speaking for myself, I have never called Nader a racist. I deplored a racist statement that he made.

Well, I looked and I never saw anyone, myself included, say "Nader is racist."


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 05:34 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by djelimon:

Office worker


LOL!


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 05:36 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by wage zombie:

Yeah, i agree, i think the term you used in the other thread was "tasteless".

Nader does not know how to reach people anymore.


Well all I can say is this thread is nearing a hundred posts. And that you only have one opportunity to make an objection at a wedding.

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:38 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Well, I looked and I never saw anyone, myself included, say "Nader is racist."
You said his words were racist. Big difference.

Then of course there was this thread, where you called Nader a "racist shit".

[edited to fix link]

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
djelimon
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posted 08 November 2008 05:42 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Do all black office workers act to the detriment of their fellow African-Americans? "

Assuming that all white corporations work to the detriment of African Americans (which I assumed you assumed) then yes.

If that isn't your assumption, then I must ask which specific corporations you think oppress African Americans and have Obama in their thrall.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 05:46 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you can't answer my original question there's no point in engaging in idle banter with you about "which corporations".
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 05:50 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
You said his words were racist. Big difference.

Well there is difference but that really doesn't speak to the main reason why the whole thing came up with in the first place. Which had to do with people, progressives and his support or non-support for him.

I don't think he's racist because of it.

I just think it was an absolutely idiotic and stupid thing to say. It's actually perfect example of how using 'ironic' racism can totally backfire and make a person look like an ass.


And in defence of it we've had, 'well it's just right wing spin' and just the same that Howard Stern does to create controversy so maybe it's okay.
That really helps. Last I checked Howard stern was not professing to be anywhere near progressive and not trying to be a progressive political movement.

It did get him noticed though. So I guess if you support the idea that no publicity is bad publicity then cool, it worked.


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djelimon
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posted 08 November 2008 05:51 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you can't answer my original question there's no point in engaging in idle banter with you about "which corporations".

Au contraire - anyone who works in an office by definition furthers the agenda of a corporation.

I can tell you that in the black Jamaican community, you call these people "Office workers". It's not considered selling out to work for Big Money.

Unless you mean "politicians".

I'm still trying to figure out how Obama, with his history of not working for corporations but doing civil rights law and community organizing fits into all this, but nevertheless I find your interpretation of this issue fascinating, if puzzling.


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Tommy_Paine
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posted 08 November 2008 05:57 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well, I remember both of you.

The gold is in Sad Hill Cemetary, in the grave marked "Unknown".


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 08 November 2008 06:04 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

I know what movie I am watching tonight.


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Fidel
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posted 08 November 2008 06:05 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nader can't win for the same reasons the NDP struggles with third highest popular vote in Canada and fourth party status. "The Church tried for centuries to stamp out the heresy, but even the Inquisition couldn't quash it. Manichaeism is the philosophy of sheeple, of gutless droids disguised as humans, whose brains are unable to deal with any system more complicated than a dichotomy." Pat Hartman
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 06:40 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by djelimon:
I'm still trying to figure out how Obama, with his history of not working for corporations but doing civil rights law and community organizing fits into all this, but nevertheless I find your interpretation of this issue fascinating, if puzzling.
Well, maybe you should try reading what Nader said before you start calling him a racist.

What he said was that Obomba's choice, "is whether he’s going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations." One or the other - it's Obomba's choice.

That's how the reference to corporations "fits into this".

According to the accepted meaning of the epithet, Nader is suggesting that one way Obomba could possibly go is to make unnecessary accommodation with the giant corporations of Amerika to the detriment of his fellow African-Americans.

I just what to know how he could have said the same thing without using that term, while still retaining the connotation of turning his back on his fellow African-Americans. I suspect Uncle Tom is the perfect term to use for that purpose.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 06:54 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:

I just what to know how he could have said the same thing without using that term, while still retaining the connotation of turning his back on his fellow African-Americans. I suspect Uncle Tom is the perfect term to use for that purpose.[/QB]


He wasn't talking about just African Americans.


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M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 07:14 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:
He wasn't talking about just African Americans.
By using the term Uncle Tom, he was. Otherwise the term makes no sense at all. It's not just a general pejorative term; it has a specific connotation. An Uncle Tom is an African-American who is a traitor to his own race. Nader knew what it means. Apparently many babblers don't.
quote:
Anyone who has worked in the areas of civil rights, economic justice, and health and safety over the decades knows that whenever minority candidates are elected to legislative offices, their minority constituents remain wary regarding whether the entrenched power structures are affecting these self-avowed representatives, or whether the reverse is occurring – that is, they are standing up to the corporate supremacists. All political pioneers have to answer this question as they move into these positions of trust. Unfortunately, as many people of color – struggling through the day in often desperate circumstances – know from the lessons of history, there are more than a few times when they are let down by a surrender to the rich and powerful – an obeisance that has its vernacular. - Nader

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 08:00 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
By using the term Uncle Tom, he was. Otherwise the term makes no sense at all.


Geez, now maybe you can see why people went huh?

quote:

It's not just a general pejorative term; it has a specific connotation. An Uncle Tom is an African-American who is a traitor to his own race. Nader knew what it means. Apparently many babblers don't

I know what Uncle Tom means. It's considered a slur, used by mostly people in the African American communities to speak about other African Americans, as an insult with connitations of being a sell-out and a race traitor. No problems in getting that part.

Read his comments again, he said, " Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations."

I read it as ..."Will you stand with the American people with their best interests or be a traitor and sell out for the corporations'

So now your suggesting that no, that 'people of this country' actually means African American people of this country only? And was only talking to African American people?

If that's what he actually meant then that makes it even worse.


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 08:05 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now you're just being obtuse. I'm done trying to explain the obvious to a closed mind.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 08 November 2008 08:09 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Obama and the School of the Americas

quote:
Still, the Democratic presidential candidates refused to take a stand against WHINSEC. In fact, the only two Democrats who expressed opposition to the institution were long shots Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich (on the Republican side, Ron Paul said he too would shutter WHINSEC)

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 08 November 2008 08:16 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
By using the term Uncle Tom, he was. Otherwise the term makes no sense at all. It's not just a general pejorative term; it has a specific connotation. An Uncle Tom is an African-American who is a traitor to his own race. Nader knew what it means. Apparently many babblers don't.
I certainly did, moreover, I gave the definition above to boot.

Moreover, I suspect you do not realize you are arguing that Nader is a "racist shit", as I noted right after I had first heard about it.

Now, I agree, it is not just a general perjorative. And when a white person uses a racially charged perjorative for a descriptor of a black person, or even about future supposed/assumed/presumed actions of that person, that have NOT yet even come close to occuring, and labels said person with it, it is racist speech. And contrary to other's opinions here, it is not Nader's "pre-emptive", or even post event call to make.

It is a WHITE man pre-judging, or making potential inferences, based upon the determinents of race, and setting a conceptual lens/framework, from which to slant perceptions prior to any actual occurances happening. IMV, it is dangerously close to race baiting.

I am reminded of the brouhaha over Mallick calling Palin's pregnant daughter "pram faced" and the indignant cries against her and her progressiveness here, because she dared to make such a comment in her own column. But now, when we have a clear racially charged pejorative in play, by the allegedly most progressive politician in the USA, it is supposedly acceptable, and indeed non-racist, and according to some could actually be progressive discourse to get a deeper point/message across. Personally, I think it is an example of white male privilege that as of yet, or even still, knows no bounds, and not so much 100% racism.

Though Nader was being a racist shit when he said that, his words were racially charged, and they contained a racially biased perjorative, used by the black community itslef, not by whites, whether or not he is extremely racist in his mental constructs is perhaps only known to himself. Note, I use the word extremely, because I believe that most whites are racist, against any given race differing from whites according to one's own personal biases, to greater and lesser degrees, including myself. That is why racism, and racial biases still exist, eh!

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 08:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought Nader quite adequately explained his meaning in his subsidiary comments.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 08:31 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Now you're just being obtuse. I'm done trying to explain the obvious to a closed mind.

Oh get off your martyr podium. Your apologist explanations are not doing him any favors. Ditto on the closed mind insult it goes both ways here. I was just being nice and not actually saying it.

I never had a problem with the meaning of the actual message. Go back and read mine and others comments.
It's not hard one to figure out. It actually took a whole split second.

Guess what? I think he was right and that it was perfectly valid and good question. Comprede? Can you actually understand that and get it through that closed thick skull? Hello?
Oh hey this is fun....not really, but like begets like I guess.

My issue and others, who by the way actually do get the message behind the words as well...funny that... is the choice of words and just the general assholly time he chose to use them. Yes, yes use a racially charged ephitet, that has different meanings to different people, in perhaps a witty and intellectual way I'll give him that much...just hours after the black guy gets elected. Smart one buddy.

And then wonder why people go wtf?

You can agree with him fine, and think that that's just a fine and dandy way to get your message out because hey, he's radical and so progressive blah blah, but don't think that just because other progressive think that it was pretty shitty that it's because we just don't "Get it" or are *gasp* 'closed minded' and aren't capable of understanding Nadars great intellectual insight.

Here's the thing. We disagree! And harping on trying to explain our horrible transgression of poo pooing Nadar, by calling people close minded and implying stupidity and that people are just beholden to wingnut spin, isn't really going to change that.


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
djelimon
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posted 08 November 2008 08:40 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, maybe you should try reading what Nader said before you start calling him a racist.

I'd like a source wherein I called him a racist (I already Googled it)

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: djelimon ]


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 08:41 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

... used by the black community itslef, not by whites, whether or not he is extremely racist in his mental constructs is perhaps only known to himself.


Yeah I thought about bringing that point up, that it was a white guy using what is most commonly used only by the black community and the racial issues with doing that, but I figured it might get to complicated, trying to explain the nuances of how that plays out.

According to Spector he WAS just talking TO the black community only...so basically he was saying hey you black folks out there you'd better watch out for this black guy he might be like one of your Uncle Toms!

I don't think he meant it that way. At least I hope not.


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 08:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's quite clear he is inverting the race paradigm that has been central to the whole Obama campaign and expressing an idea about class divisions in the black community that has been quite frequently expressed by radical black activists. I think if Obama is going to run and be applauded using the motif of black empowerment, Nader's comments are legitimized by their use of this theme, and Nader is picking up on it.

This commentary would have been much better voiced by radical left black activists, but unfortunately, those of Nader's generation who might have made such statements, have been effectively marginalized in one way or another.

Quite frankly, this comment by Nader, and the shocked brouhaha that accompanies it fits right in the same category as the infamous "the chickens have come home to roost" statement made by Malcolm X, on the day of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, or Sunera Thobani's infamous "the hands of the US are covered in blood" comment after 9-11.

The reaction is similar, and the outrage histrionics that accompany them add to the impression that the comments struck a nerve, in such a way that gives the comments more poignant significance than they actually warrant.

The more reaction I read, the more significant they seem.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 09:08 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]It's quite clear he is inverting the race paradigm that has been central to the whole Obama campaign and expressing an idea about class divisions in the black community that has been quite frequently expressed by radical black activists. I think if Obama is going to run and be applauded using the motif of black empowerment, Nader's comments are legitimized by their use of this theme, and Nader is picking up on it.


Well that's where your wrong the race paradigm was not a central part of his campaign nor what he was running on, neither was it about black empowerment. He was actually criticized by people black and non blacks alike for actually ignoring that aspect. Big time. Remember the brouhau about his race speech?
Jesse Jackson himself said he was talking too white or something close to that.

The issue of race came straight from the right and most everyone else, not from the campaign itself and did not become a big issue in the campaign itself until the Palin and McCain rhetoric started blowing the whistles. Then and only then were there any comments comming from the Obama side about the 'race' issue with the most strident ones from people like George Lewis, long time civil rights activists.

quote:

This commentary would have been much better voiced by radical left black activists, but unfortunately, those of Nader's generation who might have made such statements, have been effectively marginalized in one way or another.


Um...so since the black folks who 'may' be feeling that way can't speak for themselves Nadar has too? Is that what I'm reading here? Okay...well that makes it okay then. He was just helping. Maybe he actually checked with some first.

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remind
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posted 08 November 2008 09:11 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ya well, I gueess I am inserting my female reality into the equation, when I think about it. Because most certainly if it had been Hillary who had won, and Nader, or anyone else on the progressive left for that matter, stated that they hoped she would not be "whoring" (or insert here any gender based perjorative) her female base out to patriarchy and male hegemony, I would say he was being a sexist shit.

White males just do not have the gender and racially charged perjoratives used against them, when they are in positions of power and authority. Everyone just expects them to be the way they are.


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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 09:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:

Um...so since the black folks who 'may' be feeling that way can't speak for themselves Nadar has too? Is that what I'm reading here? Okay...well that makes it okay then. He was just helping. Maybe he actually checked with some first.

No I am saying that the people who might say such things are dead, in jail, and/or marginalzied to such an extent that they would not have been given the interview that originally started this off.


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 09:48 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Obama and the School of the Americas


quote:
On the other hand, try as he might to skirt the issue, Obama will soon be obliged to take a clearer stand on WHINSEC. That's because the House recently approved the McGovern-Sestak-Bishop amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act for 2009. The amendment obliges WHINSEC to publicly release the names, rank, country of origin, courses, and dates of attendance of the school's graduates and instructors.

Legislators pressed for the measure because in recent years WHINSEC has withheld vital information that would have helped to identify the perpetrators of massacres, targeted assassinations, and human rights abuses committed in Latin America. In a resounding defeat for the Pentagon, the measure was approved by a vote of 220 to 189. The amendment now heads to the Senate where all eyes will be on Obama.


I tried to find out where this stands now and what Obama's response was to it. Not sure it's been to the Senate yet.


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ElizaQ
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posted 08 November 2008 09:56 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

No I am saying that the people who might say such things are dead, in jail, and/or marginalzied to such an extent that they would not have been given the interview that originally started this off.




I get that. And? That's related to Nadar saying it how exactly? If it's not intended as some sort of reason or related to his interview the why is it important for a point of discussion about his comments?

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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2008 10:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't believe that all Black Americans reject Ralph Nader's take on Barak Obama. Here we are a group of mostly white people (as far as I can tell) going over the in's and out's of Nader's 60's style radical activist poke at Obama.

I definitely agree that Nader was intentionally walking the line for effect, but there was also a point in there that was not getting a lot of play in the media, and as far as I can tell Nader is the only person to get that point into a sound bite on a major network, in what is a sea of umitigated self-congratulation and applause, not the least of which is coming from a lot of white liberal Americans patting themselves on the back for doing the "good deed".

I think this would be a discussion much better served by actually referencing African-American reaction to his statement, and previous statements, and not just those from those people who are African Americans in the establishment.

I don't see a lot of that here, and rather than bantering back and forth, about what we think is the issue, we might as well spend this time blogging around and informing ourselves on what is actually being said by Black Americans on this topic.

I have been doing some of this already, and while its pretty clear that a substantial number of Black Americans were very offended by earlier Nader's statements that Obama was "talking white", some came out to say that they understood this statement and even agreed with it. At least that is what was being said on the blogs. One misconception about the "talking white" statement that seemed prevalent, was that when Nader was talking about Obama "talking white" he did not mean that Obama should be using ghetto talk, instead of speaking as the college educated man that he is. Were that what he meant, the offence would be quite obviously just. But Nader's "talking white" statement is not about how Obama speaks, it is about the interests that Obama is speaking for: "The white power structure," as one blogger pointed out.

It's a sixites thing. Nader is... well... a sixties guy, really.

Amid the wash of general enthusiasm for Obama a few voices came out to point the nuances of Nader's views, but they were a small minority, and they were readily attacked by the majority. Earlier, I pointed out that there might be some difficulty for more radical voices in the Black community to make less than enthusiastic statements about Obama, and my reading confirmed this for me. Even the usually up-front, and established Jesse Jackson ended up appologizing for some negative comments he made about Obama.

I don't really know if Nader is the right person to be pushing the buttons that he is pushing, but it seems to me that there are very few people out there right now in a position to do so, and regardless of that fact, I think Nader made a valuable point, regardless of how it came out.

J.D. opined:

quote:
I think Nadar is an idiot who has a point. Obama can’t keep it too real cause it isn’t PC (Politically Correct). He’s playing the game doing what he’s got to do. I support Obama, but don’t be fooled. He’s a politician and that means you cannot say what you truly believe, ’cause white folks ain’t hearing it.

Flo said:

quote:

I have to disagree with everyone here–except dee. I think Sharpton, Dyson and most of this forum missed Nader’s point. He wasn’t talking about vernacular or speech cadence. He was saying that by avoiding issues plaguing a disproportionately black and poor urban group, he was pandering to the fragile ego of the white educated middle class he hopes will vote for him. I think Nader was pointing this out because he feels Obama is trying not to seem like a black candidate to his white voters for fear his fate will mimic that of unsuccessful pro-black in-your-face previous candidates like Jackson. What is ironic about this is that his black voter base understands and accepts this, but it does seem like less of a “change from routine politics” to avoid the needs of your most loyal group of supporters–black Americans.

That having been said, I do support Obama and have been an avid fan since I read his first book long before his 2004 speech and ascension to fame. I’m not trying to be mean, but I just don’t think anyone on the forum–except dee–actually took time to read the comments, you just saw the headline “talk white” and ran with your preconceived notions about the content of his comments. We all skim read and jump to conclusions from time to time. This time you are in good company. Sharpton and Dyson apparently did the same thing, except now they sound foolish and misinformed in press clips instead of just on a BET.com forum.


Nader Accuses Obama of ‘Talking White’

What concerns me more about Nader's statement, is not the Uncle Tom statement, but the statement that we should hold Obama to a "higher standard", and I frankly don't get that, myself. Why because he is black? Huh?

He will be the president of the United States, and unless some miracle happens, holding the president of the United States to a higher standard still requires that I put my big rubber boots on and get ready to crawl around the sewers of Washington.

Fortunately, we do not have to rely only on Ralph Nader for commentary on Barak Obama, and his relationship to the "white power structure", and we can find other voices from within the African American community who can give us some different perspectives:

quote:
Either Obama and the pundits don’t love Hispanics or there’s more money and political opportunity in exhorting blacks. Racist appeals played a role in the election of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Both Bushes and even Clinton, but there is such euphoria among many African Americans about the possibility of a black presidency that his dumping of a bunch of lazy clichés on them will be forgiven. They will forgive him for throwing them under the bus as he did Rev. Wright, whose criticism of American foreign policy and remarks about the toxic attacks on the inner city were based upon facts. He provided his corporate media critics with a bibliography, but they apparently were too busy paling around with the people whom they cover to read it.

Blacks will overlook Obama’s snubbing of the distinguished panel of black educators politicians and intellectuals who appear on Tavis Smiley’ annual “State of the Black Union, ” and overlook the fact that he found the time to appear before AIPAC where he made belligerent threats against Arab nations and even promised Israel an undivided Jerusalem, he got so carried away, which undercuts a notion held by Maureen Dowd, and Susan Faludi that he is the feminine candidate. When it comes to seeking Jewish votes and putting down black men, in order to obtain votes from white male conservatives, he can become John Wayne.


Did this piece by Ishmael Reed,Obama Scolds Black Fathers, Gets Bounce in Polls , surface at any time during this discussion?

[ 09 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 08 November 2008 11:00 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:

I tried to find out where this stands now and what Obama's response was to it. Not sure it's been to the Senate yet.


Forty-Two Democrats Vote to Keep School of the Americas Open Juin 2007

I guess those are the two year guys in the lower house

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 November 2008 11:26 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's what a poster at Black Agenda Report who calls himself "Godfather of Soul" had to say:
quote:
Obama in his acceptance speech already lowered the bar. He is already calling for his supporters to be patient, to wait, to give him a pass, to defer their demands to a later date. He said that the change that they seek may not come even during his first term. He is already compromising and silencing the will of the people. He will tell them, wait, wait, wait as they fall deeper and deeper into desperation. He will tell them wait, wait, wait, as Palestinians are continually cleansed from their ancestral lands. He will tell them wait, wait, wait as the Congo slides into complete chaos. He will tell them wait, wait, wait as he bombs Pakistan and Afghanistan. He will tell them wait, wait, wait as he maintains permanent "advisory" forces and mercenaries in Iraq.

And when they cannot wait any longer, he will betray them even more deeply. When black people demand that he listen, he will shut the door on them. And as houses are taken away, infrastructure crumbles and the coffers of this nation are drained more and more by the machine of war, he will call for patience. He will give away the fruits of the work of those who own this nation to those who wish to dominate it even more fully, those who bought him.

And as Ralph Nader asked on election night, will he be Uncle Sam or Uncle Tom? The answer is clear: he will do as all Toms have done throughout history and urge patience as master steals from their pockets, ruins their lives and shackles them to a system that vampirically feeds on them, giving them just enough to be thankful for not killing them directly.



ETA: The screaming headlines in the MSM and the blogosphere say "Nader calls Obama an Uncle Tom". It would be no less accurate, and equally false, if the headlines all said "Nader calls Obama an Uncle Sam".

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 09 November 2008 12:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All of the blacks and Hispanics who have been driven out of New York, Oakland, and San Francisco, as a result of the policies of ethnic cleansing, advocated by Jerry Brown, Giuliani and Newsom, will be invited to return. The banks that aimed toxic mortgage loans to blacks and Hispanics, who would have qualified for conventional loans had they been white, will halt the foreclosure process and renegotiate these loans. CEOs on Wall Street will forego bonuses and golden parachutes. Sales conferences
will be held at Day’s Inn. For rent signs will go up on K street. The American Enterprise will close its doors.

The right will stop using worn out phrases like “ political correctness, ’ and victimization” and hire Sean “Puffy” Combs to provide them with some hip language.

An Obama administration will launch the Obama doctrine, which will advocate friendly aggression and soft diplomacy in Africa, Asia the Middle East and other global spots where American forces are killing people. These trouble spots wll be inundated with artists, writers, dancers and musicians, engineers, doctors and people who speak their languages.


Morning in Obamerica


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 09 November 2008 01:55 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:

His actual words:

But his choice, basically, is whether he’s going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations.


For the sake of posterity, and as the likely thread closer, even though it does not make much difference, his actual words were:

quote:

"But his choice, basically, is whether he’s going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations, which are driving America into the ground."

Faux cut it off after corporations.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938

posted 09 November 2008 02:47 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just noticed this thread, closing for length.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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