quote:

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Bell Mobility is selling a series of cellphone ringtones called PimpTones that make light of prostitution and refer to women as "bitches," "skanks" and "hoes."

The short messages can be downloaded from the Bell website for a $2.50 fee and programmed to sound whenever the cellphone rings.

In one clip, an actor speaking in a deep baritone says, "You have an incoming message from Master Silk Macktastic's hand to your face," which is followed by a slapping sound and a muffled cry.

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Full story here.

I'll be writing a press release about this later on. I am so fucking angry.

You can listen to one of the rings here.

[ 01 August 2005: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]

Lower the hate-legislation boom on Bell?

Yes, folks: Bell also does scissored body parts.

quote:

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A Bell Canada spokeswoman said the clips were offered in response to customer demand.

"We have a lot of different consumers out there who are looking for different things," said Nessa Prendergast. The motif that PimpTones use is "a huge phenomenon," in pop culture, she said.

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what the fuck is this woman talking about? there's a big growing pop culture out there in which the central theme is to put down women? and this is the pop culture they are selling to?

she almost makes it sound like bitch and hoe are synonyms for woman. this is the way things are now, you know, this is how kids speak these days, and we have to cater to that. the trendy term for woman is bitch now, and we have to accept this. stupid, stupid, stupid.

Corporations direct a lot of effort at getting young people to identify with their corp, early on, because it is thought that purchasing habits, once made, endure a lifetime.

That's why tv shows are so youth-directed; there is nothing more desirable than the 14-20 year old group.

quote:

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That is, I think lots of young kids think it's cool to be identified with rap lyrics and the image of being a player

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What next? Will they next try to corner that all-elusive but popular racist-uncle-joe-at-the-holiday-table market by marketing a series of "keep those (enter racial/ethnic slurs here) out of our country" ringtones? Or, how about that neo-nazi undercurrent where they can sell clips of Adolph Hitler's speeches?

Oh, Bell...you've crossed the line on this one.

[ 01 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Bell says it did not create the content for the PimpTones, but acquired it from a supplier.

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Ok check that out because I have a funny feeling they bought it from the same people who advertise these ring tones very heavily on US cable nets at all hours of the day and night. I can't watch certain channels without seeing these ads for these tones.

Here, the phone companies don't offer that kind of content - only the sleazy cable tv advertisers. I can't believe Bell Canada would do this. What the hell were they thinking?

Isn't there any collective responsibility for anything in the business community anymore?? Michelle your point about Hitler speeches is well taken, but if they tried that they'd get fried so fast your head would spin.

quote:

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It seems advocating violence against women doesn't turn one head in Bell Canada's corporate boardrooms.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:
Michelle your point about Hitler speeches is well taken, but if they tried that they'd get fried so fast your head would spin.

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1. For those who don't remember, Bell also brought us this ad, which skdadl mentioned:

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

Yeah, that was kind of the point. That they wouldn't dare try something like that, but somehow advocating violence against women is a-ok because there's one small segment of society that thinks it's the in thing.

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Yes I got your point and it just amazes me that, again, in the board rooms at Bell Canada, serious minds must have listened to these ringtones (tell me they listened to them at least before greenlighting them!) and then decided the money they would make would outweigh the damage they would do in the culture to women.

Here's what rap star Ludacris has to say about Canadian women in "Pimpin' All Over the World":

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"I used to think that it was way too cold, `til I went to Canada and saw some beautiful hoes, now I hit the Caribana every year in Toronto."

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Me: Could you describe the variety of PimpTones I might expect?
Bell: Well, we offer a standard range, going from Slap-my-bitch-up to Who you callin' ho', ho?
Me: Well, I'm not sure any of those appeal to me. But can you tell me more about the Slap my bitch up option?

...etc.

[ 01 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

[ 01 August 2005: Message edited by: Raos ]

It's so pathetic.

[ 01 August 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Me: Could you describe the variety of PimpTones I might expect?
Bell: Well, we offer a standard range, going from Slap-my-bitch-up to Who you callin' ho', ho?
Me: Well, I'm not sure any of those appeal to me. But can you tell me more about the Slap my bitch up option?

...etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Raos:
I fail to see how anybody, let alone enough people to constitute a demographic, could consider everything to do with 'pimp culture' appealing. Who would want to emulate that filth?

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Kids/adults who learn from media and other messages that females are sexualized, commodified at younger and younger ages. Kids/adults who get no reprisal for calling their mother/wife a bitch. Kids/adults of both sexes who feel a stomach-turning (it turns my stomach) pressure to fit in with a hyper-sexualized culture.

But I want to caution those reacting negatively to them against unconscious, knee-jerk racism and stereotyping when pointing fingers.

Nobody quite out and said that black people are to blame for this, so I'm not going to quote anyone or name names. But watch yourselves. You don't want to even come CLOSE to KIND OF saying anything LIKE that ALMOST.

That's where the racism lies.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

That's not the point.

Edited to note that I was surprised how little effort they'd put into soliciting feedback on their site. Most companies of any size tend to have a dedicated feedback page and forms, etc. Y'know, make it easy for your customers to talk to you?

Perhaps if they listened to the public a little more they might be a little less keen to charge ahead with such ignorant campaigns. Actually, perhaps not.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Suzette ]

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
"Your call is important to us ..."

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But Bell is selling to a pre-existing market. And they're selling exactly what a fairly substantial demographic among young cell phone owners want to hear. That may imply that they have a weak sense of corporate ethics, in that they're willing to sell a detestable thing to a detestable demographic (aspiring violent mysogynists), despite its abhorrent nature, but this phenomenon has far deeper roots. This is among its most peripheral manifestations. Bell is just an amoral corporate entity seeing a fertile niche and casually co-opting the concept. This is one of a hundred different cookie jars it has its hands in. Send them a letter about it. Your letter may someday constitute part of the recycled waste on which they print their triumphal 2005 Ringtones Sales Growth Chart.

It is terrible racist as well as sexist stereotyping, and worse still for Black women who are seen as bitches and whores. The expression "Black Bitch" should really be confined to Labradors...

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Well, and imagine how you'd be feeling, PB, if you were a young black guy working hard at quite a different sort of life -- any other sort of life -- and it suddenly hit you: no matter what I do, white people are going to keep casting me as an aspirant pimp who talks and thinks that way.

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Yes, I'm quite aware. I have friends who face this very problem. And that said, I've faced prejudice myself quite a bit in my short years. Nothing to compare to out and out racism, but I know the rough feeling.

Like I said, such things have fallen into the mainstream view...Since, oh I don't know, the 60s and 70s. I find it disturbing that the negative elements of an effectively neat culture are being capitalized upon.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Do I recall that James actually managed to get through to the president or somebody about the ad with the scissored body parts? *paging James*

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[email protected]

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Originally posted by Papal Bull:
Why do people capitalize on the most negative parts of hip-hop culture? Sheesh.

The female body ad was disgusting. But this one completely takes the line that was crossed and pisses on it. It is ridiculous. I mean, the words bitch and hoe is kind of a general term in modern culture. They have their meanings, but they've changed over the years. I just can't fathom...Man. My mind is doing circles.

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But there is a problems with this, modernization of the words bitch and hoe. One of them being that the meaning adopted by youth is not the one understood by older people. It might mean one thing to someone 25 and under, and might mean entirely another to someone older -- the meaning hasn't changed for them. When did the the feelings/understandings and views of people over 25 become irrelevant?

[RANT]Also, hip-hop, like so many Black American musical forms before it, has been co-opted as a markteting vehicle for corporations. In the process if has been drained of its more redeeming politcal features. In the begining words like "nigger," and "hoe" and "bitch" were used as part of direct political defiance against white culture, in the manner of "Fuck you, I am a nigger (or a pimp) and these are my hoes so you can just fuck off," or even, "So what if (you think) I am a hoe and this is my pimp, you can just fuck off!" The usage intended to both offend white cultural norms and to assert pride by inverting the meaning of nigger, hoe and bitch into postive attributes signifying black defiance against stereotypes.

Watching notable white-boy hip-hip prankster, and incorrigible whiner, Eminem mouth these words, as if the message of defiance is not culturally and racially specific is one of the supreme jokes of American pop-culture.

The original poltical message as evoked by people such a Public Enemy (Fight the Power, Fuck the Police, 9-11 is Joke, My Ouzi Weighs a Ton) and Bitches with Problems (Kill a Man, Is the Pussy Still Good) has been completely drained, so that gang culture explained as a means to an end in a ruthless society bred by necessity, has been replaced with mere glorification of macho themes to excite kids in the suburbs and get them to by plastic discs. Likewise prostitution is now glorified simply as prostitution, without the underlying politcal analysis and has led to a plethora of video productions where the cameraman rarely strays from his position 12 inches from a womans ass.

Of course numerous black artists have gone along with the whitification, producing lyric after lyric, punctuated by politically acceptable invective set to images of sexually stimulating cineamtography, but that has little to with politics except to say that those artist know what side their bread is buttered on, and that any entry into dangerous themes like ideas about black revolution against the state, will very likely lead to marginalization at the periphery of the record industry, and a lapsed mortgage.

The fact that these terms came into use as lyric in hip-hop, as defiance against white middle-class sensibility, directly intended to offend, juxtaposed against the way they have now been incorporated into middle class language to the point where they can be part of a tv ad, summarizes the case in point.

There is nothing revolutionary or interesting about these terms, they are now just purely offensive, especially as they are a cultural rip-off, and also a submersion of revolutionary culture in the mainstream pastiche.

[/RANT]

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by James:

[email protected]

which, oddly, doesn't appear on their "contacts" page, but is the *only* effective channel through which to accomplish *anything* @ Bell.

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And that is an exceptional historico-cultural summary, Cueball. Thanks also.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

There's now another thread calling for action, in the form of a letter and fax blitz, to protest this. Why no protest when it's music?

I agree it's offensive. I also thought it was offensive before Bell offered it as a feature.

I can still hear the Crew Cuts singing "Sh-Boom" (The Chords) and Bill Haley and the Comets neutering of Big Joe Turner's "Shake, Rattle and Roll" so as to make it acceptable to the white mainstream.

Pimp Juice is an "energy drink" marketed by Nelly.

quote:

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Originally posted by Yst:
But Bell is selling to a pre-existing market. And they're selling exactly what a fairly substantial demographic among young cell phone owners want to hear.

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you're right. bell is selling to an already existing sexist culture. but that's not the only problem. their marketing tactics also influence young impressionable minds. the younger kids will be buying into this sexist culture because it's the cool thing to do, because it's what the older kids are doing, and some of the moral responsibility for creating yet another sexist generation will rest with bell.

cueball, thanks for the cultural history.

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i really detest calling bell. i always get 'emily' - their voice recognition system. and emily is not very bright.

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Have you tried calling her a 'bitch'? Maybe tell her you're an important 'playa' who doesn't have time to wait for some automated 'ho' to figure out what you're sayin'?

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the younger kids will be buying into this sexist culture because it's the cool thing to do, because it's what the older kids are doing, and some of the moral responsibility for creating yet another sexist generation will rest with bell.

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LOL. Ya, about 0.5% of the blame. With the other 99.5% resting squarely with the music that popularized the terms in the first place.

Good lord. Okay, nobody likes Bell. I get that. But we're halfway to pretending they invented the terms "bitch", "ho" and "pimp" instead of just bundling a service from a third party who themselves are only borrowing the terms from hip hop music where they've been happily describing women and the men who own them for years and years.

Here's a question though: If terms like "bitch" and "ho" are all about reclaiming language, how come it's always men saying them?

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I can understand, for example, a gay man saying "I'm a fag" and thus reclaiming the term. So wouldn't we have to see lots of black women laying claim to terms like "ho" and "bitch", and not men doing it for them?

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quote:

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magoo, i'm not sure what point you're trying to make. should we let bell get away with sexism and propagating more sexism just because we never actively attacked hip-hop sexism in the same fashion? or should we get up in arms about hip-hop culture as a whole?

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If these terms truly offend you, they should offend you whereever you hear them outside of the context of personal reclaiming of language. If some male rapper tries to "reclaim" the word "bitch" on behalf of all the women in his life, I would think you might be offended, but I certainly can't tell you to be.

quote:

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how do we dictate to (some) talented hip-hop artists what words they can and can't use in their lyrics?

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How do you dictate to Bell what kind of ringtones they can offer? Or dictate to consumers what they should want? Rap music is just another industry.

quote:

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or should we just censor all such artists who dare to use the words bitch and hoe.

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Well, do the words offend you? Do they offend you less when Nelly wants to get some ho's to fuck? Is it OK if 50 cent calls women bitches, since he's black? I can't really decide this for you. I'm just pointing out that these terms have existed for quite some time before Bell offered ringtones.

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why can't you just let us get on with it instead of making us feel bad for being selective about who we attack?

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Do you feel bad?

Well, never mind. It's all Bell's fault for inventing those terms! Damn misogynists!!

of course those words are offensive, no matter who uses them, and even when the terms are used flippantly. you missed my point by zoning in on the first few sentences that i used that actually led up to something, and ignoring what the sentences actually led up to. i don't buy nelly or 50 cents or whoever. i suppose i should now start writing to every record company in the world saying i refuse to buy nelly or 50 cents because they use the word bitch. 1. i don't have the time. 2. i imagine i would get laughed at, and nobody would pay attention to me. these artists already have a huge market, and i'm sure they already know there are people who don't buy into their music. i am confident that such efforts would be futile. i already explained why we have a slightly better chance with changing marketing strategies at bell.

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i suppose i should now start writing to every record company in the world saying i refuse to buy nelly or 50 cents because they use the word bitch.

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Every record company in the world? Why, that would be absurd.

Please continue focusing your energy solely on Bell, whose choice of a bad third party partner is surely more offensive than hip hop music.

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i already explained why we have a slightly better chance with changing marketing strategies at bell.

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Perhaps. And perhaps if Bell pulls the ringtones or abandons their partner, young people will only have ubiquitous music to reinforce the idea that women are bitches. In other words, you're not going after the real problem. Your "success" in fixing something that's really not a significant part of the problem will be debatable.

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it's easier to nip something in the bud than to attack it when it's already hugely faddy.

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Indeed. I think it was about 15 years ago that some female rappers had a song called "A bitch is a dog and a hoe is a tool" or some similar.

But at the same time, apologists insisted that rap was the authentic "word of the street" and the violent, woman-hating language was just "the way things are, on the street", and so now anyone criticizing a rapper for wanting to get some big-bootied bitch to fuck is, or can be construed to be, criticizing all of black culture at the same time. From a white position of privelege, no less! If only I weren't white, I'd surely understand that women are ho's!

*mutter, grumble, gripe*

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fine, i'm not attacking the root of the problem. not enough anyway. and, the truth is, i don't know how. but, if you're so smart, please enlighten me on what i can do to eradicate sexism from our society, starting with hip-hop culture. maybe i should travel around the world delivering lectures to kids on the streets and the parents who raise them that 'hoe' is a baaaad word.

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There's a veritable army of straw men in there and it's making my hayfever act up.

Clearly you don't like to look inconsistent and it bothers you that I'm pointing it out.

I don't expect you, or anyone else, to "eradicate sexism from our society" with a letter. But if you're saying any of this in good faith then surely you can see that while you cannot hope to single-handedly eradicate all that's wrong with the world, you needn't roll over and accept it either.

You seem, simultaneously, to have boundless energy to bring this up with Bell and hold them accountable, but the thought of sending a similar letter to a record company, or to MTV, you find laughable.

Magoo, you seem to be unable or unwilling to understand what I think has been fairly clearly stated by ephemeral and others. We are consumers of Bell products. As consumers of Bell products, though obviously not the target market for this particular Bell product, we have power to potentially impact Bell's choices of services, products and marketing strategies by making clear our dissatisfaction.

I don't buy Pimp Juice. I don't watch MTV (I don't even have cable). I don't buy music by Nelly or 50 cent. I'm not their target market. So they don't really have much to lose by offending me in terms of sales, and thus probably don't care much. And I'm not about to go on a crusade to censor their music - partly because I don't think its an effective way to counter their message.

Not to say I wouldn't write to them about it, though I think public discussion is far more useful, but in terms of where I think I can have an impact in changing the behaviour of a company, Bell seems a much more logical choice. They may want to corner the coveted market of 12-25 year olds, but they are also well aware that the majority of their customers aren't 12 year old rap star wannabes. Reminding them that I do pay attention to what they sell and how they advertise, and that it impacts my choices as a consumer, is one small action that might make a difference.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Clearly you don't like to look inconsistent and it bothers you that I'm pointing it out.

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no, i'm just irritated because you keep bashing the idea of complaining to bell (and you do have a valid point), but you don't provide any alternative ideas/suggestions. so, go ahead and criticize all you want, but in the meantime, what are we supposed to do?

quote:

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Is there any possibility that, even in the abstract, you're uncomfortable criticizing hip hop music (but have no similar discomfort criticizing Bell)?[/QB]

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quote:

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no, i'm just irritated because you keep bashing the idea of complaining to bell

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Maybe this is where we're off the rails. I'm not saying "Don't complain to Bell"... please do. Just don't let the root cause off the hook.

Here's why I'm still on this:

quote:

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Class-action suit (all the women of Canada)?
Lower the hate-legislation boom on Bell?

They have to pay for this. They just have to.

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No class action suit against record companies? If not, why not? Sure, maybe a letter from a non-fan would get cheerfully discarded, but if the legal grounds for a lawsuit exist, shouldn't that lawsuit be able to name EVERYONE who calls women bitches?

Edited to add: Cueball, loved your post.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: brebis noire ]

What bleeding right do most people here on babble have to go invading communities of which we are not a part and instructing them on proper manners?

I can just see you in the late sixties, Mr Magoo, strolling up to Eldridge Cleaver and saying, "Hey, Eldridge -- it really bothers me when you and the brothers keep using the N-word. The rest of us have quit, so could you cool it maybe?"

I don't know who runs the record companies (some have always come from the communities concerned), but I don't especially care, either. They're not making a cent off me.

quote:

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What bleeding right do most people here on babble have to go invading communities of which we are not a part and instructing them on proper manners?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ephemeral:
magoo,

of course those words are offensive, no matter who uses them, and even when the terms are used flippantly. you missed my point by zoning in on the first few sentences that i used that actually led up to something, and ignoring what the sentences actually led up to. i don't buy nelly or 50 cents or whoever. i suppose i should now start writing to every record company in the world saying i refuse to buy nelly or 50 cents because they use the word bitch. 1. i don't have the time. 2. i imagine i would get laughed at, and nobody would pay attention to me. these artists already have a huge market, and i'm sure they already know there are people who don't buy into their music. i am confident that such efforts would be futile. i already explained why we have a slightly better chance with changing marketing strategies at bell.

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Actually, the marketing director would take your letter and frame it, adding the quote: "It doesn't matter what they say, just as long as they spell the name right."

But I don't think the words are inately offensive, as there meaning is context determined.

Also Magoo is wrong about women not using the words Bitch or Ho (are we spelling this way now, so that it is not mistaken for a gardening tool?) given that "the Bytches," AKA "BWP" AKA "Bytches with Problems" AKA "Bytches with Power," are all women. And the message is not at all self-defaming but empowered, taking the stuffing out of protestant puratanism with track like "Cotex" and "Two Minute Brother."

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by swirrlygrrl:
[QB]Magoo, you seem to be unable or unwilling to understand what I think has been fairly clearly stated by ephemeral and others. We are consumers of Bell products. As consumers of Bell products, though obviously not the target market for this particular Bell product, we have power to potentially impact Bell's choices of services, products and marketing strategies by making clear our dissatisfaction.

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Are you not a consumer of the music industry's products as well? Maybe even some of the same labels as hip hop artists, even if you are not obviously the target market for that particular product by that record label?

quote:

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I don't buy Pimp Juice. I don't watch MTV (I don't even have cable). I don't buy music by Nelly or 50 cent. I'm not their target market.

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Do you buy products from the same company that produces Pimp Juice or by the same company that produces Nelly or 50 cent music? Because using this logic, you are not the target market for PimpTones either, and you don't buy them.

I think I agree with Magoo on this one. For feminists to concentrate our efforts on a few measly PimpTones without concentrating our efforts, for whatever reason, on the huge problem of misogyny in the pop culture phenomenon that spawns these ringtones - well it'll make us feel better, maybe, but I don't think it'll really change anything. And I think a lot of us who aren't part of the scene DO feel funny about criticizing misogynist hip hop artists, because we're afraid of judging from the outside.

But for those of us (and I include myself) who are afraid of judging and speaking out against misogyny in hip hop music because we're afraid of appropriating culture or whatever, isn't it kind of inconsistent to then say that we're going to zoom in on one teensy-tiny manifestation of the same scene - cell phone ring tones - and say, well, we're not going to go after the source or the real problem because that's too much of a hot potato, but at least we can go after the phone company even though it's not even going to make the slightest dent in the misogyny of hip hop pimp/ho/skank/slut/bitch discourse.

I get the impression that what Magoo is on about isn't protecting the phone company. He's on about the fact that hip hop music often gets a free pass on misogyny out of discomfort for criticizing an urban scene that we're not a part of, and which is the source for the offshoots like these ringtones, but for some reason, we feel free to go after the companies that offer these ring tones.

Do we think that record labels aren't run by white guys cynically appropriating hip hop culture to make money? If there are compelling reasons for leaving the hip hop scene alone, why don't those same reasons compel us to leave the ring tones alone since they're also part of the scene? And if there aren't compelling reasons for leaving the misogyny in the hip hop scene alone, then why are we wasting time on Bell when we have a whole record industry to take on?

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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I can just see you in the late sixties, Mr Magoo, strolling up to Eldridge Cleaver and saying, "Hey, Eldridge -- it really bothers me when you and the brothers keep using the N-word. The rest of us have quit, so could you cool it maybe?"

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How about if I said "Go ahead and call yourselves ni**ers. That's your right. But don't call women bitches. That's not."

That would have been OK, wouldn't it?

quote:

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I'm also not exactly sure why one off the cuff comment by another poster means you suddenly get to harangue ephemeral and dismiss any action that she or others wish to take against Bell.

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I'm trying to be clear on this, but you'll have to do your part too. Nowhere did I say "don't take action against Bell". All I asked was "why no protest for anyone else?" And I'm sorry, but saying "Oh, those record companies, they won't listen to me" doesn't really fly. We protest the United States Government. We protest Israel's occupation. We protest against Coca-Cola, Starbucks, the Gap, and McDonalds (while simultaneously NOT buying their product), but suddenly a record company is a losing battle, so let's not bother?

If you're that offended, bother. Or come up with a way better reason for not bothering.

Again, this seems to me to be like coming down hard on mopeds for causing pollution, but ignoring cars and SUVs because "we'll never change them".

Also, the reason I quoted Skdadl's post was not because it's the lynchpin of my argument, but because it seems to encapsulate all the rage against Bell (and the rage against the music that started this whole "hos and bitches" fad is conspicuously absent). It also offers the solution: class action suit. If letters won't work, go big. If you can do it for Bell, why not EMI or Capitol or whoever?

quote:

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What bleeding right do most people here on babble have to go invading communities of which we are not a part and instructing them on proper manners?

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Well, if we're really just talking about a transgression of manners then what's all the anger about? Anyone's allowed bad manners, aren't they?

Funny though. When Bell partners with a company that offers a ringtone that simulates hip hop stars calling women bitches and hos, it's possible cause for a class action suit and "Bell must pay", but when it's the actual artists themselves, actually calling women bitches and hos, it's just a matter of manners and we should keep our pink noses out of it.

2. Bacchus, I forget precisely how you put your question, but if you have followed any of my contributions to discussions on those topics you list, you will find that I don't usually waste my time on gasps of self-righteous indignation. If there are complex problems of distinct communities, that's where I go.

Sure, there are bigger fish to fry. But this isn't a zero sum game. There's an unlimited number of battles to engage in. Picking one and doing something is admirable, and if there's one less ringtone with a ho-slapping out there because of the battle you chose, then power to you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Actually, the marketing director would take your letter and frame it, adding the quote: "It doesn't matter what they say, just as long as they spell the name right."

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pessimist. i like to think there's a hope that a few dozen letters all complaining about the same thing will be taken a tad seriously. but, maybe you're right. but i don't want you to be right.

quote:

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posted by cueball:
But I don't think the words are inately offensive, as there meaning is context determined.

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sorry, i meant offensive to me, personally. they are words i, personally, wouldn't toss around casually. and i wouldn't be super-sensitive and get all irate if somebody called me a bitch in a friendly way without intending any offence, but i think i would get annoyed if they did it often.

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
What bleeding right do most people here on babble have to go invading communities of which we are not a part and instructing them on proper manners?
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posted by boom boom:
This really surprised me, coming from a babbler I especially admire. Maybe I didn't understand the question. But I think any of us have the moral right to confront racism or sexism anywhere, anytime. I'll probably regret posting this.

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i feel the same way as skdadl about imposing morality, and my cultural values on another culture that i don't buy into. offence may not be taken by women in the hip-hop culture when they are referred to as bitches and hoes. i do feel uncomfortable telling them that they should be offended. just like it drives me absolutely bonkers when most canadians i've met insist that wearing a burkha must feel oppressive to the muslim women who wear them - and i know this isn't true because i grew up in the middle east, and in my 12-13 years there, i only met 2 teenage girls who actually resented wearing the burkha. so, people in the west are going to try and re-write the qur'aan so that arab women don't have to feel oppressed. i don't know if that was a good comparison, i hope you get my drift... and i hope this doesn't turn into a thread drift. imposing moral values should be a thread all on its own, i think.

edit: oh dear, i see i cross-posted with about 8 other posts, and some of them are long-ish. i must learn to think and type faster to keep up with all of you.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: ephemeral ]

But you're being inconsistent, skdadl. In one case, when hip hop artists do the "ho/pimp/bitch/skank" thing and sell it through a record label, you say you don't want to police them for "bad manners". When they do it and sell it through cell phone companies, you want to start a class action suit on behalf of women everywhere.

I just don't get it. In one case, it's cultural appropriation and in another case it's not?

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

But that's not what's happening in this case. In this case, the same people who are explicitly against criticizing the misogyny in the hip hop scene from outside of the culture, are the same people who want to take Bell Canada on about this. How come?

We keep hearing that we should follow the feminists from within the communities that are experiencing the misogyny. Are we following the feminists from within the hip hop scene here? Most people on this thread have claimed that they are not part of the scene and don't buy the music. Are you leading the charge or following the feminists from within the scene as THEY lead the charge?

ARE the feminists from within the scene leading the charge against these PimpTones? Who is appropriating whose voice here?

Skdadl, you're telling me you've never bought music from a record label? You've never supported the music industry in any way? You've never listened to mass-produced music from record labels that might also be producing hip hop?

So you've never bought hip hop. You've never bought PimpTones either, have you? Or even a cell phone? But you buy other services from the same company. Maybe you really HAVEN'T bought any music from the music industry and that's the difference for you.

But I'll bet you're a pretty lonely exception to that rule, and that everyone ELSE on this thread has bought mass produced music of some kind, at some point in the last 20 years.

Why do we think that it's interfering when we want to tell people in the hip hop scene to stop buying misogynist hip hop music (or to try to pressure the record labels not to produce that music), but it's not interfering when we want to tell people not to buy misogynist ring tones, and for the phone company not to sell them?

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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ARE the feminists from within the scene leading the charge against these PimpTones? Who is appropriating whose voice here?

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Huh? I don't follow that.

People work from where they are. That I follow. Whether there are feminists qualified to work from within the hip-hop scene, I wouldn't know. I don't do everything.

quote:

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Why do we think that it's interfering when we want to tell people in the hip hop scene to stop buying misogynist hip hop music (or to try to pressure the record labels not to produce that music), but it's not interfering when we want to tell people not to buy misogynist ring tones, and for the phone company not to sell them?

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And ephemeral, if this is true:

quote:

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i feel the same way as skdadl about imposing morality, and my cultural values on another culture that i don't buy into. offence may not be taken by women in the hip-hop culture when they are referred to as bitches and hoes. i do feel uncomfortable telling them that they should be offended.

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then why do you feel that trying to impose your morality and cultural values is okay when it comes to trying to get PimpTones off the market? Would we ever have even noticed PimpTones, at least any more than we notice hip hop music, if we hadn't read this thread, even as Bell Canada customers? In fact, when I was looking through the Bell site yesterday, I was specifically LOOKING FOR offensive PimpTones and couldn't find any. Does this really affect us any more than misogyny in hip hop music does? Is it okay to tell women who hang around with guys who buy PimpTones to be offended at the misogyny? Isn't that what we're telling them when we say that we don't want them to have PimpTones available for purchase?

I don't like any of this misogyny. But I think it's kind of weird to use a "cultural appropriation argument" when it comes to criticizing hip hop music, but then to say that it's okay to criticize hip hop ring tones.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
No there are not tactical decisions. If we complained to the record companies and bell, we would be showing that there are people offended to such sexist lyrics and that its not 'good optics' to go with this. If people just complain to bell, bell will jsut shrug it off and would win any class action suit by pointing out 'creative expression ' and a lack of action against the artists

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quote:

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Originally posted by ephemeral:

pessimist. i like to think there's a hope that a few dozen letters all complaining about the same thing will be taken a tad seriously. but, maybe you're right. but i don't want you to be right.

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A dozen letters would no doubt be a cause for a party after work. Eminem's career was built on shock value and scandal.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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I get the impression that what Magoo is on about isn't protecting the phone company. He's on about the fact that hip hop music often gets a free pass on misogyny out of discomfort for criticizing an urban scene that we're not a part of, and which is the source for the offshoots like these ringtones, but for some reason, we feel free to go after the companies that offer these ring tones.

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In answer to one of your earlier questions, since about 1970 I have probably only ever bought classical or folk records, and not so many of those.

My closest association with the current debate would be Motown, a spectacular instance of black capitalism.

Am I a critic of capitalism? Yes. But was the Motown story complicated enough that other people were way better qualified than I was to address it? Yes also.

I do Western imperialism and corruption and cronyism and that kind of thing. I also have a bit of a background as a student of the deregulation (read privatization) of the telecom industry since the 1980s (see the Macdonald Commish), and I am perforce a Bell victim. So I wake up to issues like this.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

quote:

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We keep hearing that we should follow the feminists from within the communities that are experiencing the misogyny. Are we following the feminists from within the hip hop scene here? Most people on this thread have claimed that they are not part of the scene and don't buy the music. Are you leading the charge or following the feminists from within the scene as THEY lead the charge?

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And my point was that some, not all, feminists within the Latin and Black ghetto communities of the US have appropriated the language of opression to disempower it. This then becomes a problem in terms of the record industry because those elements of defiance still linger in hip-hop music, and also are part of the mechanism (fame) that some people use to excape the opression of the ghetto (which isn't really true now either given that most rap and hip-hop artists are coming from the middle-class now.)

On the other hand Bell is merely exploiting without any payback.

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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In answer to one of your earlier questions, since about 1970 I have probably only ever bought classical or folk records, and not so many of those.

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Then you have bought from the same people. There are very few record distributers and some are even owned by the same entity (like sony and rca, etc)

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
On the other hand Bell is merely exploiting without any payback.

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That is why most left social critics would stand back and hope for better than they could do themselves, why they would recognize the self-regarding nature of knee-jerk denunciation.

That was true in the sixties and it is true now.

Maybe everyone else here has a firm grasp of who the record execs are and where they came from, but I don't.

I repeat: I do know about Bell.

quote:

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And my point was that some, not all, feminists within the Latin and Black ghetto communities of the US have appropriated the language of opression to disempower it.

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But it's not women saying "I'm a ho" to reclaim the language. It's men saying "women are hos".

I have a hard time believing that Latin and Black women are so happy to take one for the team, and so unable to speak for themselves that they need 50 Cent to reclaim the language for them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

But it's not women saying "I'm a ho" to reclaim the language. It's men saying "women are hos".

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If you actually think this then you are not qualified to dicuss this topic.

Why is the Rap act Bytches with Power called Bytches with Power? I have now made this point three times in this thread. I rephrase my first question: Does your mind reset to zero every 20 minutes?

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

"After this conversation, and talking with rappers and folks who listen to rap, it became clear that while black male sexism is a serious problem in our communities and in black music, some of the more misogynist lyrics were there to stir up controversy and appeal to audiences. Nowhere is this more evident that in Snoop Doggy Dogg's record "Doggystyle". A black male music and cultural critic called me to ask if I had checked this image out; to share that for one of the first times in his music buying life he felt he was seeing an image so offensive in its sexism and misogyny that he did not want to take that image home. That image (complete with doghouse, beware the dog sign, with a naked black female head in a doghouse, naked butt sticking out) was reproduced, "uncritically," in the November 29, 1993 issue of "Time" magazine. The positive music review of this album, written by Christopher John Farley, is titled "Gangsta Rap, Doggystyle" makes no mention of sexism and misogyny, makes no reference to the cover. I wonder if a naked white female body had been inside the doghouse, presumably waiting to be fucked from behind, if "Time" would have reproduced an image of the cover along with their review. When I see the pornographic cartoon that graces the cover of "Doggystyle," I do not think simply about the sexism and misogyny of young black men, I think about the sexist and misogynist politics of the powerful white adult men and women (and folks of color) who helped produce and market this album. "

quote:

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
The artists are in partnership with the labels, the labels would be in partnership with bell, to license the use of the music and tones

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Fine, if that is the case.

But most importantly is the tactical consideration, which is that Bell actually gives a shit what Skdadl thinks, Warner does not.

I actually articulated a fairly strong attack against modern hip-hop earlier in the thread, and this thread is all about this issue. As far as I am concerned this thread is the legitimate protest. I think it (this discussion) has been effective and useful in broadening understanding of this issue, and the history and culture of rap and Hip-hop.

quote:

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Originally posted by periyar:
I just thought i'd post this article by bell hooks for people who may be interested in a black feminist response to the sexist branches of hip hop.

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What the hell are you doing actually linking to articles written by the people we are talking about!

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

What the hell are you doing actually linking to articles written by the people we are talking about!

[ 02 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Nothing destroys faster than the market. Now that 'pimptones' have made their way from a legitimate expression of frustration at an oppressive society, to a method for increasing profits of the self-same society, artists will probably begin to move elsewhere.

Nothing indicates that hip-hop is passe more than this little Bell play. If indeed hip-hop still had the politics it once had, Bell wouldn't have gone within a country mile of 'pimptones'.

I remember reading a Mad magazine bit from years ago where they pointed out how a 'new thing' in the culture started with adults, and gradually was copied by younger and younger. As that 'youthification' happened, the elders dropped it like a dirty diaper.

I think this also works with the privatization of cultural symbols. As the market absorbs them, the artists move on.

Anyone remember the 'acid' art used on posters in the 70's - Or 'Screaming Yellow Zonkers' popcorn?

quote:

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Originally posted by maestro:
Hip-hop is dead. Bell doesn't know that yet.

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quote:

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I just thought i'd post this article by bell hooks for people who may be interested in a black feminist response to the sexist branches of hip hop.

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Why is the Rap act Bytches with Power called Bytches with Power? I have now made this point three times in this thread. I rephrase my first question:

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Ah. So then women of colour are all OK with it then?

I have a gay friend who totally doesn't mind being called a homo. Reclaiming the language and all that. But I don't think he can decide for all gay men that it would be ok for me to greet them with "hey homo".

While I'm sure some female artists, and perhaps female non-artists, don't mind, I don't think that makes it a done deal, nor do I think that the few female artists such as these are anything but tiny compared to the superstar male rappers.

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Originally posted by shaolin:

Thanks for the article, periyar. I wish you were here to post it far earlier on the thread!

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quote:

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Originally posted by vmichel:
You can tie yourself up in knots with ironic commentary and pointing out the hypocrisy in others. The well will never run dry in that regard. But at the end of the day, that usually ends up being an excuse to avoid action.

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I have never seen a better, more concise encapsulation of Magoo's worldview.

You became an issue in this discussion of about 10 (tops) people because you're such an abnormally stupid idiot. Why the fuck is the campaign against this totally blatant insult towards womens' dignity a bad idea, (ie., wasting precious resources for the "big fight" [which you fail to provide advice for])? To me, it sounds like you're playing your usual role of attempting to suck the juice out of any progressive activist movement so that you can blather on about your [stupid] [and hypocritical] liberal "objectivity."

The day I listen to you about how to run an efficient campaign is the day THAT PIGS FUCKING FLY!!!!!