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Almost as soon as rescue workers began sifting through the rubble at the sites of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, many Americans launched another search -- not quite as desperate, perhaps, but crucial nonetheless. Citizens scrambled for information about the places the killers came from and the ideas and beliefs that could drive men to lay down their lives for the chance to massacre ordinary American office workers. Foreign correspondents with expertise in the Middle East say their phones have been ringing off the hook, and virtually every newspaper in every town across the nation has run a variation on two basic stories: "What is Islam?" and "Why Do They Hate Us?" Adding to the shock of thousands of violent deaths was the bewildering information that the people who so passionately want us dead belong to nations and groups that many Americans had never even heard of.
Why are Americans so ignorant of what's going on in the world outside our borders, even when our own government is playing a key role in those events? That's a question that dogged Anne Kelleher, a professor of political science at Pacific Lutheran University in Washington state, while she was lecturing in Ankara, Turkey, last year on a Fulbright scholarship. "I tried to explain to the teachers and students there why, during the U.S. presidential election, foreign policy wasn't front and center. For them, it's unfathomable that the most militarily powerful, the most politically influential country, with the most impact on the global economy, plus a culture that's transformed the world via its media -- how a country with that kind of far-flung influence can choose its leader with no attention to the issues that it faces worldwide." Kelleher cited a January 2000 Gallup poll in which Americans asked to rank the importance of issues in the presidential campaign relegated the U.S. role in world affairs to 20th place.

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Ransdell recalls, "When I was at U.S. News & World Report I heard about these focus groups we did with our readers where almost every time foreign news came in dead last in terms of what our audience wanted us to deliver. . . The fact that as much foreign news finds its way into print and onto television as it does today is, frankly, a miracle given the yodeling ignorance of the American public."

The first waves of people coming to the U.S. and many of the subsequent ones were people fleeing conflicts. And so when they came to the U.S., they said, 'We don't want to hear about that stuff anymore.' . . . The U.S. is an oasis, a cultural escape from quarrels that, when you get to the U.S., seem a bit petty. . . Americans think they are beyond that sort of thing."

"Americans have an extremely positive view of their country and political system," she observes. Unfortunately, though, most Americans aren't paying close enough attention to object when U.S. policy goes against that view.

"If there's a problem out there, Americans think it should be fixed. And Americans like a situation that can be fixed in the foreseeable future." The complicated, delicate, sometimes centuries-old political conflicts of the Middle East seem custom-designed to exasperate an impatient people with little interest in the past.

"The second reaction will be a strong 'Let's bomb the Middle East. This is Christian vs. Muslim. Why bother to understand the people and why bother working with all the nations in the region to build a political position and strategize with them?'" She calls this second reaction "almost a glory in ignorance. It's a pride in not understanding complexity in political issues," arising in part from a long-standing anti-intellectual strain in American society.

"Who are we going to bomb? Are we going to land ground troops? What are the ramifications of these actions? Who do we alienate? And the answer is the very people we need in order to effect an anti-terrorist policy: Arabs -- to have to think through that is irritating because you need to know something, and people do not like to be confronted with their own ignorance."

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I would not catagorise the people that participate and contribute to those publications as ignorant.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
There are parts of America that are still worthy of our respect and admiration.

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Absolutely. No question about that. Still, Americans are profoundly ignorant about conditions outside their borders. For example, we Canadians know far more about the US than Americans know about Canada. Worse, anti-intellectualism among the American (and Canadian) populace seems to be growing.

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Originally posted by Toby Fourre:

Absolutely. No question about that. Still, Americans are profoundly ignorant about conditions outside their borders. For example, we Canadians know far more about the US than Americans know about Canada. Worse, anti-intellectualism among the American (and Canadian) populace seems to be growing.

Is some of this related to the growth of Creationism?

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1) Canadians should know about the USA, more than they know about Canada. The USA is an objectively larger and more important concept, with ten times the population, more history, more science, culture, et cetera. They also permeate canadian society. A better analogy would be Canadians know more about the USA than they know about China, Japan, and India.

2) Anti-intellectualism can be seen in the Jean Chretien years, when he was popular by pretending to be a complete idiot. "Me, pepper, I put it on my plate" HAHAHA that's so funny. Not.

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Originally posted by Toby Fourre:
...Still, Americans are profoundly ignorant about conditions outside their borders.

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And another aspect is operant conditioning to be focused only upon self.

And yet another is people simply being over-whelmed and not knowing where to start or what even to do, because it is hard to care about the outside world if you yourself are about to starve.

The following comment I do not believe is correct, is there some data you have that shows this?

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For example, we Canadians know far more about the US than Americans know about Canada.

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That is a very broad reaching judgemental commentary. Some Canadians know a lot about the USA, just as some USians know a lot about Canada, and visa versa with not knowing and every place in between.

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Worse, anti-intellectualism among the American (and Canadian) populace seems to be growing.

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Is some of this related to the growth of Creationism?

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Americans, in general, are ignorant about what is going on in other parts of their own country, sometimes even events in their city or state aren't noticed.

[ 20 April 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
With what? Brain power Vitamin E caplets? Mensa membership badges? Chosen Few paraphernalia?

[ 20 April 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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In the science fiction novel Starship Troopers, Robert Heinlein envisioned a society where only those with military service experience could vote.

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
Sorry, to clarify - everyone should have the *right* to vote, but only the ones who think as I do should be encouraged to vote.

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Because your view is the One and True Opinion?

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God, no.

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With what? Brain power Vitamin E caplets? Mensa membership badges? Chosen Few paraphernalia?

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However voting is encouraged, I suppose.

Or that the 'mass society' knows exactly what it's doing, and that it has no intention whatsoever of delegating its decision-making powers to a self-appointed élite?

[ 20 April 2008: Message edited by: Stephen Gordon ]

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"The enormous gap between what US leaders do in the world and what Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great propaganda accomplishments of the dominant political mythology." Dr. Michael Parenti

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Democracy was a noble goal at some point during formation of the 13 colonies. Today, however, empire builders, political Liberals and Conservatives alike have managed to give democracy a bad name the worldover.

[ 20 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Ever consider the possibility that you've been spoon-fed?

Or that the 'mass society' knows exactly what it's doing, and that it has no intention whatsoever of delegating its decision-making powers to a self-appointed élite?

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They try to spoon feed me, but I don't eat it.

I guess if you're referring to those large number of mass society who don't know who the prime minister is, who don't vote or read a newspaper... I guess they know exactly what they're doing.

I don't think there needs to be any kind of self-appointed elite. The current system would work better, though, if the level of dialogue was better.

Do you think that our current systems of political dialogue are excellent ? I don't. But I don't think that everybody needs to be dragged into participating. It has nothing to do with elitism, or intelligence, it has to do with interest. You don't need to elevate the debate to university levels of understanding, but high school would be nice.

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I don't see what Creationism or personal religious beliefs have to do with intellectual capacity.

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:

However voting is encouraged, I suppose.

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Voting is encouraged in those countries with highest participation rates in elections.

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I think that spoon-feeding of information needs to stop is what I'm saying.

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
Sorry, to clarify - everyone should have the *right* to vote, but only the ones who think as I do should be encouraged to vote.

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Don't we have that right now, with the low voter turnouts in Canada?

The issue aware people are motivated by each party and the ones that don't care just don't care and don't vote.

Yes, I agree. I think that more can be done, though, to elevate the level of debate.

How so? Christians will believe that God is the architect of creation. Whether they believe that Adam and Eve populatd the world, or that God created all matter and formed the universe, like the intelligent design theory, it comes back to one belief- creationism.
Your blanket statement of the adherents of Creationism as either ignorant or dishonest is as repugnant to me, as the Bible-thumping cretins who point a finger at me and tell me that me and my kind will go to hell becuase we don't share their particular set of beliefs.
It's an absolute view based on a particular set of elitist beliefs that set the believer and his ego above others who don't share his point of view.
I do not equate religiosity with stupidity or dishonesty. By the same token, I'm not prepared to equate atheism or alternative spirituality with intelligence.

The prevailing ignorance is a construct of an elite group that requires populations dumb enough to believe that they live in free democracies, when in fact they live in something that resembles a two party oligarchy.

[ 20 April 2008: Message edited by: viigan ]

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Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
Or that the 'mass society' knows exactly what it's doing, and that it has no intention whatsoever of delegating its decision-making powers to a self-appointed élite?

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:
How America is perceived: Tamil song and dance about America. Priceless.

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We knew it would make a major impact, but we are amazed at the response. Thousands of copies are being distributed, and people from different countries are singing the song.

[ 20 April 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

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Your blanket statement of the adherents of Creationism as either ignorant or dishonest is as repugnant to me, as the Bible-thumping cretins who point a finger at me and tell me that me and my kind will go to hell becuase we don't share their particular set of beliefs.

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Think of former secretary of the interior under Ronald Reagan James Watt, who said that taking care of the environment was irrelevant because of the upcoming Rapture.

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Originally posted by Sineed:
People who believe in creationism are either ignorant or dishonest, but that wouldn't be true for religious people in general.

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It most certainly is true for religious people in general.

Religion is superstition, and superstition is inherently irrational. Choosing an invented fantasy and proclaiming that it is true, and moreover claiming that it is compatible with reason, is either ignorant or dishonest.

You can fairly say that our common system of mathematics is just one paradigm among many.

You can then choose to declare the number 1 is precisely equal to the number 0, construct a mathematical system around that, and define a whole new set of logical rules.

The trouble is that the 1=0 system is absolutely useless if you try to apply it to any practical task.

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Education. Increased productivity in the U.S. is certainly not the result of a robust education system and highly educated workers. The U.S. ranks 49th among 156 countries in literacy and its functional illiteracy rate is five times higher than Cuba's. Twenty per cent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth and 17 per cent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day. Twenty per cent can't find the U.S. on a world map. And according to the New York Times, U.S. workers are so badly educated and lack so many basic skills that American business spends $30 billion a year on remedial training.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
The belief in reason at the exclusion of anything else is itself quite irrational... but don't tell a believer or he'll become *very* irrational!

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Belief in reason to the exclusion of irrational superstition (that would equate to "all else") is irrational? Care to explain that?

Does the word 'belief' imply something unsupported by evidence or reason?

It is commonly used both ways.

I believe 1 plus 1 equals 2. Does that make arithmetic irrational?

1 and 2 are integers. Integers are rational numbers by definition. The square root of 2, however, is provably irrational. But you have to use reason to prove it.

"I believe 1 plus 1 equals 2. Does that make arithmetic irrational?"

No, but it would be irrational to believe this to the point of excluding a priori, as irrational, systems where 1 plus 1 equals 11 or 10 or +, for instance, equally valid solutions depending on the frame of reference chosen.

It is in this framing of problems that rationality fails, since the choice of what is acknowledged or not in the assessment remains entirely subjective and arbitrary.

This is how inhumane policies can be and are routinely described as "rational". Some crucial benchmarks, values and interests are merely kept out of the calculation by the ideologues arguing for rationality above and instead of all else.

[ 21 April 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Hmmm. Maybe 'mass society' has already delegated its decision-making powers to a self-appointed elite....

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Hey Martha, that's an interesting point.

You made me think about it, and I came up with this: in mass society, ANYBODY who knows ANYTHING about politics is in the 'elite'.

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Originally posted by wanker:
Religion addresses the question of why.
Humans tend to think about both and both types of thinking require reason.

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It's not that religion doesn't make some use of reason. It does, as is obvious if you read any theology paper.

The problem is that reason happens to undercut the foundation of religion belief. The troublesome question about such a belief is 'If you were wrong, how would you ever know?'

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Proaxiom: If you undermine a rational argument by challenging the assumptions on which it relies, are you not again using reason?

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[ 21 April 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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And yet, you have escaped their control. How is that possible?

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Yes, of course. It isn't reason that I am impugning but belief in reason above and instead of all else.

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Reason is a tool. It has its limitations, but for what it does, it's the only one we've got.

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As for religious types, I doubt that their mainstay argument is "being right". I suspect that in their view, God is right, not mere humans.

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Whereas those of us who are more enlightened than them, are told what to believe through a daily dosage of television and pop culture. If Michael Moore and Bono say it's ok, then it must be.

[ 21 April 2008: Message edited by: viigan ]

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I'm not talking about you.

And the cheering for Friedman/Pinochet happened on another site.

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Happened where ? Who did it ?

It is a way of enforcing uniformity. Don't like Cuba? You must be a shill for George Bush!

Like Barack Obama? Oh well then, you favour bombing Pakistan.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
It is a way of enforcing uniformity. Don't like Cuba? You must be a shill for George Bush!

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
It's too bad.

I like the opportunity to speak to fellow left-of-centre posters, but not the rabid kind.

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[ 22 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:

Hey Martha, that's an interesting point.

You made me think about it, and I came up with this: in mass society, ANYBODY who knows ANYTHING about politics is in the 'elite'.

But I know what you mean... Those who control the levers are the true elite.

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We have poor turnout because Canadians know it doesn't matter. How the economy is run should be a central part of politics but we had an election with free trade being the central issue and after two thirds of voters voted for candidates who opposed it we got it anyway. Then we had an election where politicians claimed they would renegotiate it because of the inherent flaws. Well they won and then didn't do a thing.

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Originally posted by Proaxiom:

It's not that religion doesn't make some use of reason. It does, as is obvious if you read any theology paper.

The problem is that reason happens to undercut the foundation of religion belief. The troublesome question about such a belief is 'If you were wrong, how would you ever know?'

If it's impossible to discover if you're wrong, then you can't ever know that you're right. If you can't know that you're right, then why exactly do you pretend that you are?

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Don't sweat it Michael. Mr. Bong up there is not the only one who makes veiled accusations here.

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What veiled accusations?

I don't know who this Hardner guy is, but I rather expected more from you, Jeff. I realise we haven't been in contact since the great schism, but I wonder what's happened to you in the last two years.

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And the cheering for Friedman/Pinochet happened on another site.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

It's silly, but low-level debate is nothing new here. My only complaint is that people like Bong get to keep their anonimity while making drive-by slanders.

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I dunno, Mr. Hardner, did you cheer for Pinochet's implementation of Milton Friedman's death squad economic plans for Chile?

Only the truly indoctrinated could do so.

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