quote:

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Once more Georgia was launched into a situation of chaos and bloodshed. A new fratricidal war exploded with renewed strength on Georgian soil.

To our great disappointment, the alerts of the Georgian Peace Committee and of progressive personalities of Georgia on the pernicious character of the militarization of the country and on the danger of a pro-fascist and nationalist policy had no effect.

The authorities of Georgia once again organized a bloody war, feeling the support of some western countries and of regional and international organizations. It will take decades to cleanse the shame poured by the current holders of the power over the Georgian people.

The Georgian army--armed and trained by U.S. instructors and using also U.S. armaments -- subjected the city of Tskhinvali to a barbaric destruction. The bombings killed Ossetian civilians, our brothers and sisters, children, women and elderly people. Over 2,000 inhabitants of Tskhinvali and of its surroundings died.

Hundreds of civilians of Georgian nationality also died, both in the conflict zone as well as on the entire territory of Georgia.

The Georgian Peace Committee expresses its deep condolences to the relatives and friends of those who have perished.

The entire responsibility for this fratricidal war, for thousands of children, women and elderly dead people, for the inhabitants of South Ossetia and of Georgia falls exclusively on the current President, on the Parliament and on the Government of Georgia. The irresponsibility and the adventurism of the Saakashvili regime have no limits. The President of Georgia and his team, undoubtedly, are criminals and must be held responsible.

The Georgian Peace Committee, together with all the progressive parties and social movements of Georgia, will struggle to assure that the organizers of this monstrous genocide have a severe and legitimate punishment.

The Georgian Peace Committee declares and asks broad public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation, and appeals to all to support the Georgian people in the struggle against the criminal regime of Saakashvili.

We appeal to all the political forces of Georgia, the social movements and the people of Georgia to unite in order to free the country from the Russian-phobic and pro-fascist anti popular regime of Saakashvili!

---

The Georgian Peace Committee Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008 link

Here is the previous thread - Part VIII

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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Hypocrisy

Bush’s remarks were drenched with hypocrisy. He reiterated Washington’s support for Georgian control of the disputed territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, invoking once again the “sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia.” Neither he nor any other American spokesperson has explained why Georgia’s use of murderous violence against South Ossetia in its indiscriminate shelling of the region’s capital city was a legitimate defense of “territorial integrity,” while Serbia’s use of force against Kosovan secessionists was a war crime.

The US seized on Serbia’s moves against CIA-backed separatists in Kosovo to carry out a ten-week air war, under the auspices of NATO, in 1999. While Washington decries Russia’s “disproportionate” use of force against Georgian troops which attacked South Ossetia and condemns Moscow for military action beyond the borders of the breakaway republic, the US and NATO rained bombs and missiles on virtually all parts of Serbia, demolishing bridges, water pumping stations, electricity grids, government buildings, housing developments, schools and hospitals in the capital city of Belgrade. The US and NATO killed far more civilians in its campaign to crush Serbia, a traditional ally of Russia, than have been killed by both sides in the current fighting in the Caucasus.

---

quote:

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Russia and China signed a landmark deal on July 21, officially ending all outstanding territorial disputes between the two countries. Under the agreement, Russia will hand over Yinlong Island (known as Tarabarov in Russia) and half of the Heixiazi Island (Bolshoi Ussuriysky) at the confluence the of Amur and Ussuri rivers, clearing the way for closer strategic and economic relations with China.

The deal flowed from an initial agreement signed in 2004 by former Russian President Vladimir Putin that proposed a 50-50 division of the disputed islands. While Russia returns Yinlong and half of Heixiazi, totalling 174 square kilometres, China has given up its claim to the other half of Heixiazi.

In the 1960s and 1970s, clashes over the islands brought the former Soviet Union and China to the brink of war. Last month’s agreement is the final step in resolving the longstanding issues involving the 4,300-kilometre border between the two countries. The other disputes, mainly concerning China’s western border, were settled in the 1990s.

The political calculation behind the territorial settlement is clearly to strengthen the developing Russo-Chinese strategic partnership to counter the growing pressure from the US and its NATO allies on both countries on a number of fronts.

---

Russia threatens to 'strike' Poland in wake of U.S. missile plan

quote:

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A Russian general says the recently negotiated deal to allow the United States to place a missile interceptor base in Poland "cannot go unpunished."

Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the Russian general staff, made the comment to reporters on Friday.

Nogovitsyn was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying Poland was risking attack by agreeing to the deal.

"Poland, by deploying [the system] is exposing itself to a strike —100 per cent," he said.

---

No link. Maybe someone else can find one.

The NMD program isn't going to help Poland but General Novogitsyn should focus his attentions on Georgian booby traps and mines left behind after they retreated.

Georgian troops mined civilian facilities

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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According to news reports, Russian forces have captured Americans who were with the
Georgian troops directing their attack on civilians.

---

quote:

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"The entire front line of the army's brass stepped down because of the war. Gal Hirsch, who was defeated in Lebanon, went to Georgia and they too lost because of him," laughed Nasrallah.

Hirsch, a brigadier-general in the reserves, served as commander of the IDF's Galilee Division during the war and resigned in its wake. In recent years he consulted the Georgian army on the establishment of elite units and rearmament, and gave various courses in the fields of combat intelligence and fighting in built-up areas.

---

If anyone expresses sympathy for Hitler (which they mercifully have not), I will not hesitate to call them a Nazi sympathizer. Meanwhile, people have been openly declaring their sympathy and support for Taliban. If people express support for Taliban then they are Taliban supporters.

Other people have slandered me by calling me a Bush-supporting neo-con. I can't be bothered to go tattling to the moderators because someone wants to tell such a blatant lie about me. Life is too short.

In the bizarro world of "unionist" the only way to prove that one is not a "Bush-supporting, neo-con" is to express love and admiration for the Taliban and to salute their valour and heroism (sic.). I'm sorry, but I think the situation in Afghanistan is just a tad more complex than that and i don't feel that we have to choose cyanide over arsenic.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
Leave poor Stockholm alone. You think it's easy to cheer on the Crusaders while insisting "I oppose Canada's military role in Afghanistan"? Now he's talking about cyanide and arsenic. Show some sympathy for God's sake.

---

I guess you just can't fathom how I can loathe Harper and Bush and yet NOT agree with you that Putin should be named "humanitarian of the year" and NOT feel like chanting "Viva la revolucion" at the sight of Taliban insurgents gunning down aid workers.

quote:

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find a group of Taliban fighters and tell them you are an atheist, Jewish trade unionist from Canada who wants to offer them moral support

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I propose that if Unionist made such a statement in some locales south of the border he would be strung up after a good beating.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
I propose that if Unionist made such a statement in some locales south of the border he would be strung up after a good beating.

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quote:

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Stockholm: Meanwhile the Russians are in Gori - which is indisputably part of Georgia - so how much longer can the world let this blatant invasion of a sovereign country continue?

---

This should answer your "concerns" ...

quote:

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Catholicos-Patriarch Ilya II of all Georgia visited Gori on Thursday as a member of a delegation that included over 120 representatives of the media and diplomatic missions. He saw that nothing was destroyed in the city, said Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of the general staff. “They made sure there was none of the destructions so luridly claimed by the Georgian side”, General Nogovitsyn said at a briefing on Friday. He said, “The downtown is safe and the suburbs were not as heavily damaged as we heard (from some media outlets) and it couldn’t have been otherwise. We always said that Russian forces didn’t use heavy equipment and armament in Gori”, General Nogovitsyn emphasised.

---

quote:

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How long before before start to hear about Russian troops occupying Kiev, Vilnius and Tallinn?

---

Check under your bed. I think there are some Russian dust mites massing for an attack. But don't drink the tap water. I understand they're using Florine to sap your vital bodily fluids.

I seriously hope people who have heard of babble as a place of intellegent discussion and debate aren't looking through here. Just about everyone posting here is well educated, well read, and many have seriously high IQ's. Well you sure as hell wouldn't know it.

I used to work in group homes for disturbed kids way back in the day, and you're giving me flashbacks. You all deserve time outs.

The easiest and laziest response would be just to suspend Stock for a while, and everyone else could smugly carry on until you bored eachother and the thread would die. But that would not do the problem justice. Almost everyone is making outrageous and stupid accusations. There is a trail of "he said it firsts" going back nine fucking tedious threads now, and it's leaking out into other threads.

Short of going back and suspending four or five people, I have to say I'm at a loss. Maybe everyone could just take a break from the keyboard for the day. Really, how many of you have day jobs that you're being paid to do right now.

ETA: my apologies to the handful of innocent people who've posted in good faith.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

I've got plenty of compliments from all sorts of babblers - including those who disagree with me - about the boatload of information in these threads. So I can't agree with the general sentiment, oldgoat. But I suppose we're spinning our wheels here and it's good to be reminded of that.

quote:

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Poland and the U.S. reached the agreement Thursday to base American missile interceptors in Poland in exchange for augmenting Polish forces with U.S. Patriot missiles.

The agreement comes in the wake of increasing tensions involving Russia and its former satellite states...

The White House said the system...is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. But the Kremlin is convinced it is aimed at Russia's missile force.

Referring to the "mutual commitment" part of the agreement, Poland's Prime Minister Donald Tusk said that NATO would be too slow in coming to Poland's defence if Poland were threatened, and that the bloc would take "days, weeks to start that machinery."

---

From reading the CBC's article it seems there is a lot left unsaid, that would make their accounting of what is going on, and being said, make sense.

Did Poland's PM say that today in response to the Russian General's comments?

If not, and it was after the signing of the deal yesterday, what was he really meaning when he said that about "mutal commitment"?

Does it suggest that they are reluctent signatures to the agreement?

quote:

---

I've got plenty of compliments from all sorts of babblers - including those who disagree with me - about the boatload of information in these threads. So I can't agree with the general sentiment, oldgoat. But I suppose we're spinning our wheels here and it's good to be reminded of that.

Thanks.

---

While Fox News does the anti Russian spin this happens.

quote:

---

Shepard Smith interviews South Ossetian survivors, a 12 year old girl and her aunt, and then cuts them off when the aunt lays the blame on Georgian president Saakashvili for launching the brutal Georgian artillery attack that killed 2,000 people.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by scooter:
For those how enjoy their humour dark and ironic.

While Fox News does the anti Russian spin this happens.

Georgian Troops Caught Firing on Fox News

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quote:

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The easiest and laziest response would be just to suspend Stock for a while, and everyone else could smugly carry on until you bored eachother and the thread would die.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldgoat:
This series of threads is a complete fucking embarrassment.

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quote:

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But he added, "With its actions in recent days, Russia has damaged its credibility and its relations with the nations of the free world. Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century."

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quote:

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"Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity," he said. "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror."

---

very troubling.

What ever transgressions the Georgian Government may be guilty of, I fear Georgia is going to become a test case , by Russia, to gauge the response of the countries bordering it. Ukraine , Estonia, Latvia, Poland and Lithuania are all expressing concerns about a belicose Russia.

and the United States is talking out of its ass as well! Rice says ts not 1968, where a country can roll in and occupy a country like Hungary. What is this double speak? hello? Iraq? Afghanistan? Have the world leaders gone insane?

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

I highly doubt there will be an unprovoked invasion of the Ukraine. The Ukraine has considerable forces at its disposal and such a conflict would certainly be counter-productive in the long run. But time will tell.

I don't see what is "insane" about the Russian position so far, it seems far more justifiable than much of what has been going on on our side of the fence for the last 8 years. Some balance in international relations is sorely needed, and a shot of over the bow of the NATO alliance, and US gunboat diplomacy is a benefit to everyone, in my view.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TemporalHominid:
I fear Georgia is going to become a test case , by Russia, to gauge the response of the countries bordering it. Ukraine and Poland and Lithuania are all expressing concern.

---

From The New York Times, Georgia has signed a cease-fire agreement (that the US has been told by Russia that Russia would also sign). The agreement apparently provides for the immediate removal of all Russian troops from Georgia.

If true, that’s good news.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

Are the Russians saving the South Ossetians from the Georgians ? Are the Russians the bad guys, also ?

I thought this clip on Antiwar.com - from Fox News - was interesting. A young American woman who was in South Ossetia, “I was running from Georgian troops, I want to thank the Russian troops”.

Incidentally, I wonder what his meeting with Condi Rice was like? I can just picture Condi taking Saakashvili to the woodshed for some lessons in diplomacy.

.......................

Condi: "You idiot! Who gave you permission to attack!"

Mikheil: "We had to. You weren't going to allow Georgia into NATO without settling the issues of Ossetia and Abkhazia. I had to go now."

Condi: "Fine. But you were supposed to finish them quickly! What did we spend all that money for?!

Mikheil: "But, Condi! There were too many of them. They were ready for our attack."

Condi: "Of course they were ready, dumkoff! That's why we spent all that time practicing before last Thursday! The best used equipment in the entire military was the rear-view mirrors on your tanks! You loser!"

Mikheil: "Condi, you're hurting my feelings."

Condi: [Slaps Saakashvili upside the head.] I'll hurt more than your feelings! Now sign that peace agreement and be quick about it! Schnell!"

Mikheil: "Yes, sir. [pauses] You look fabulous, Condi."

quote:

---

Originally posted by TemporalHominid:
and the United States is talking out of its ass as well! Rice says ts not 1968, where a country can roll in and occupy a country like Hungary. What is this double speak? hello? Iraq? Afghanistan? Have the world leaders gone insane?

---

Apparently, you missed the talking points set about this apparent hypocrisy, by the US Ambassador to the UN.

The deal is, gone on are the days where you can roll into any "European" country.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
The deal is, gone on are the days where you can roll into any "European" country.

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And that is good news, no?

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
So, now all those comments by the US propagandists, are prefaced by the notion that you can roll into any other country that is NOT Europe, and of course the tacit given is also not NA.

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Or many Asian countries...

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

quote:

---

Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity stated that Georgia used mercenaries from several countries during its aggression against his nation.

“There were many mercenaries from Ukraine and the Baltic states. We have found dead bodies of African Americans too,” Interfax quoted Kokoity as saying.

The official supposed that it was exactly the reason why the Georgian side had not provided any reports about the losses, which it was suffering during the military operation.

---

It might also explain why the Baltic states and the Ukraine had some of the harshest criticisms of the Russian response to the Georgian attack.

quote:

---

Presidents Bagapsh and Kokoity also accused Western media outlets of the schemed informational war against South Ossetia. They believe that the vast majority of Western news agencies provided the biased coverage of events.

“It was a well-prepared and thought-out action, when there was only one opinion provided – the opinion of the USA, Great Britain and several other countries. Everyone started to support this opinion,” Sergei Bagapsh said.

The president said that there were just a few countries which did not follow the fraudulent trend – Spain, France and Germany.

---

Wonder why Pravada is soft peddling US actions in this, considering what else they reported?

quote:

---

Some soldiers, like Viktor, chose to obtain just a souvenir. One of the most popular formerly Georgian military items now in Russian hands is a spiffy black-handled knife.

Viktor's mates said the weapon, sometimes issued in a snappy leg holster, is suitable for locking onto a US M-16 automatic rifle sold to Georgia, and holds a great edge.

'There were piles of them in the depot over there,' said a sergeant name Oleg, pointing with his thumb to a plume of smoke rising from behind a hill. 'The Georgians just ran, they didn't even take their (expletive deleted) stuff with them.'

---

quote:

---

Very likely Russia will be emboldend. Best case scenario is that there will be a round of talks designed to get the US and Poland to drop its ABM deal. Probably best for all.

---

You weren't the only one thinking this. But you probably said it just as the news came out that the deal was signed. [See thread on that.]

quote:

---

I don't see what is "insane" about the Russian position so far, it seems far more justifiable than much of what has been going on on our side of the fence for the last 8 years. Some balance in international relations is sorely needed, and a shot of over the bow of the NATO alliance, and US gunboat diplomacy is a benefit to everyone, in my view.

---

As far as that goes, I more or less agree. Except that said appearance of 'balancing' almost always turns out to be more tinder for the fire.

But I certianly don't have a normative problem with the great power side of what Russia is doing. It's no worse for sure.

But I'm revolted by that [apparently] leading some people to cheerleader everything about what Russia is doing.

Its worse than Russia isn't in it fro the Ossetians and Abkhazians.

Because Russia isn't even as a by-product doing any humanitarian good. It's just more Georgian victims instead of Ossetian victims. And Russia deliberately does not step in just far enough to even the odds. The Russian iron fist in Gerogia means open season on the still large percentage of Georgians in Ossetia, in Abkhazia, and now even in Georgia itself.

Russia is stoking these ugly conflicts. The fact that Georgia attacked recently does not make that any less true.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
From unionist's link regarding Poland:

"The White House said the system...is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. But the Kremlin is convinced it is aimed at Russia's missile force"

---

Iranians Float an Offer the West Should Not Refuse June

quote:

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Although widely ignored in the international press, highly significant statements were made at an international conference in Berlin June 24-25, by two authoritative Iranian spokesmen, one an academic, the other a political leader and brother of the new Majlis (Parliament) speaker Ali Larijani. Both said explicitly that Tehran would be willing to freeze its uranium enrichment, and to provide for concrete mechanisms to guarantee that its enrichment program would not, and could not, be geared to weapons production.

Instead of acknowledging these ostentatious gestures of good will, the U.S. surged ahead with new legislation to introduce yet more sanctions against Iran, which are clearly designed to prepare a military aggression, and the European Union kicked in with its own new punitive sanctions.(1)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenS:
I wish I could transport some of you cheerleaders to Gerogian villages in Ossetia to watch what is happening and what comes next.

---

Likewise I, personally, have yet to declare allegiance to either Russian or vicious empire side of this brawl. There's something else at stake, however. And I find the vicious toadying to US empire in some of these threads both disheartening and embarrassing considering which country some of the comments are coming from.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

The military offensive Russia conducted in north Georgia is now described as that country's most significant military operation since the implosion of the Soviet Union. Some countries even consider this conflict as the first in a new Cold War between East and West. And all because the commitment President Bill Clinton made to Moscow was not honored by his successor.

...

The straw that broke the camel's back, or more precisely the pretext that convinced Putin to use strong-arm tactics, was Kosovo. By straightaway recognizing Kosovo's independence last February, the United States and the European Union crossed a line that Moscow had begged them not to. During the first meeting between EU and Russian foreign affairs ministers organized after the Kosovo episode, Putin indicated that all regions tempted to secede and enjoy rapprochement with Moscow would be recognized, aided and armed. No sooner said than done, the Kremlin commanded aid be brought to Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
http://www.truthout.org/article/russia-unleashed

---

I don't necessarily agree with everything the author has to say or all the analysis, but what is important is that he demonstrates that actions have reactions. For example, others, more knowledgeable than I, say that Clinton betrayed Reagan's commitments to Gorbachev. If that is true, than, once more, the Russians compromised after the Clinton betrayal. But that is less important.

What is important is that what has been set in motion by Clinton/Bush and their efforts to encircle and isolate Russia, is a new war.

Some are arguing that it is a new cold war. It could be, but I think if it continues along the present course it will reach climax in fairly quick order.

What we all should be concerned about is that the contest is about more than prestige and saving face. It is about more than expanding influence and territory. It is about the fundamentals of modern civilizations and economies. It is about energy resources.

We began the last century in a build up to what was a major confrontation between the great European powers as the value of fossil fuels - especially light crude oil - to industrial economies slipped into focus.

We are beginning this century coming to terms with the limits of those finite resources. We are coming to terms with the limits of our ecology and the rapid consumption of those same resources. But we haven't yet come to terms with the limits of power, violence, and stupidity.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

---

The secrets of the crushing of Yugoslavia are emerging, telling us more about how the modern world is policed. The former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia in The Hague, Carla Del Ponte, this year published her memoir The Hunt: Me and War Criminals. Largely ignored in Britain, the book reveals unpalatable truths about the west's intervention in Kosovo, which has echoes in the Caucasus.

...

Del Ponte in her book: the KLA kidnapped hundreds of Serbs and transported them to Albania, where their kidneys and other body parts were removed; these were then sold for transplant in other countries. She also says there was sufficient evidence to prosecute the Kosovar Albanians for war crimes, but the investigation "was nipped in the bud" so that the tribunal's focus would be on "crimes committed by Serbia". She says the Hague judges were terrified of the Kosovar Albanians - the very people in whose name Nato had attacked Serbia.

Indeed, even as Blair the war leader was on a triumphant tour of "liberated" Kosovo, the KLA was ethnically cleansing more than 200,000 Serbs and Roma from the province. Last February the "international community", led by the US, recognised Kosovo, which has no formal economy and is run, in effect, by criminal gangs that traffic in drugs, contraband and women. But it has one valuable asset: the US military base Camp Bondsteel, described by the Council of Europe's human rights commissioner as "a smaller version of Guantanamo". Del Ponte, a Swiss diplomat, has been told by her own government to stop promoting her book.

---

quote:

---

remind: IMV, you are way off base KenS, on several aspects, with your personal viewpoint synopsis of what you believe could be, or would be, happening in Georgia (have you any proof that this is what is happening to Georgians, if you do please post links)

---

KenS is way off in another way. The Georgian attack on South Ossetia was so rapid, the bombs dropped so quickly, that Georgians who lived in South Ossetia also died. They killed their own countrymen. What sort of mad frenzy is that? What words shall we use to describe such conduct?

All of this will come out soon enough.

Mind you, the Georgian peacekeepers slipped quietly away just before the bombardment began. And, perhaps most disgusting of all, (next to the horrors against civilians which would make you sick to your stomach), the Georgians made sure to open fire on the Russian peacekeepers first of all. This has been verified by many witnesses. Once the peacekeepers were pinned down, or dead, the civilians were much easier pickings. Over 1,600 of them were easy pickings.

One should not be indifferent to such things. The consequences of such indifference is as terrifying as bombs.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
More on the "good guys":

Pilger

---

quote:

---

Mind you, the Georgian peacekeepers slipped quietly away just before the bombardment began. And, perhaps most disgusting of all, (next to the horrors against civilians which would make you sick to your stomach), the Georgians made sure to open fire on the Russian peacekeepers first of all. This has been verified by many witnesses. Once the peacekeepers were pinned down, or dead, the civilians were much easier pickings. Over 1,600 of them were easy pickings.

---

He did no such thing.

Actually, the playing field hardly needed evening. Even without Russia’s material support Abkhazians way got the better of Georgians, and Ossetians gave as well as got the shit end of the stick in the struggles there.

It occured to me that its rather natural for a lot of you to believe the conveniently one sided line about nasty Georgians [which in the case of the Abkhazian communal conflict is a complete upside down distortion of what happened].

In the first place, you have every reason to distrust information coming from Western media. And since most of you come into it knowing nothing about these peoples, you are ripe for accepting what comes out of Russia.

I am a geography and cultural geography nut. I started with absorbing encyclopedias as a child. And I’ve always been particularly interested in Central Asia and the Caucuses- before I knew a thing about the history of ethnic conflicts there. I knew the 15 republics of the Soviet Union and at least their capitals, before the breakup. I’ve known about Ossetia for longer than I can remember. I started being interested in Tuva as a teenager. Etc.

So when the conflicts of Central Asia and Caucuses started- even before the break-up of the Soviet Union- I had a lot of background. I knew for example about the demographics of Armenians and Azeris, Tajiks and Uzbeks, Georgians and Abkhazis, Georgians and Ossetians... where they predominated, where they mixed. [Ironically, for whatever reason I was less interested in Gerogia and Georgians.] I also knew how Stalin had drawn the boundaries to accentuate these ethnic tensions, moved populations about, etc.

So unlike most of you, I’ve been watching these events in and around Georgia unfold for more than 15 years. I can’t provide singular links because I’ve never seen myself as a proponent for anything. I read what comes along. I have somewhere to fit it all in, a context to critique and know what interests and biases are behind what is written.

But the info is easy to come by. Start with wikipedia on Ossetia [South and North], Abkhazia, ethnic cleansing in Ossetia/Abkhazia, etc. Follow the sources.

I’ll summarize what I know you’ll find. In Ossetia the Ossetians got the shit end of the stick first. Tens of thousands of refugees [40?] went to North Ossetia. Ossetians got control of the situation within a few years and the worm turned. Most of the Ossetian refugees still did not come back. But thats because they have it much better in the North. Why come back to the derelict South when Russia settles you in land still essentially empty since Stalin deported the Muslim Ingush [similar to Chechans] in the 40s. There were more Georgian refugees from Ossetia than there were Ossetian refugees, and unlike the Ossetes, they are still refugees with nothing. And that was BEFORE last week. People in the capital city had their homes ruined, and hundreds [not thousands] of Ossetes and Georgians died- but once again, there will be far more Gerogian than Ossetian refugees when the dust settles. Its unlikely any of the Georgians who were the overwhelming majority of the rural population around the capital will be able to come back. Then there is the eastern third of the Republic of South Ossetia which is mostly Georgian villages and has been and still is administered by Tiblisi. But now that Russia is going to formally recognize South Ossetia and pour more resources in, and Russia has never done a thing to protect ethnic Georgians in Ossetia.... those sift borders are going to become very hard, with all those Georgians on the wrong side... and...

And then there is Abkhazia. Sure Georgia tried to throw its weight and hold on to it. But they never stood a chance. There WERE more Georgians in Abkhazia. than Abkhazians. Probably 200,000 of them expelled or left- and I don’t remember how many killed in the process of ‘encouraging’ them to leave.

The reason there more Georgians than Abkhazians is because it was Stalinist policy to move them in. But they cleverly reserved the bulk of administrative positions for Abkhazians and Armenians. Nice historical set-up. And the early Nineties outcome was more than ugly.

A lot of that is absolutely going to happen. Thats the nature of these barbaric communal conflicts. They have plenty of momentum of their own, let alone with help from outside forces.

It proves nothing at all about the overall situation to document particular atrocities.

As to what happened in the last week- who did how much to whom- it's way too early to know in the decisive way that Beltov is throwing around 'facts' provided from Interfax and other Russian sources.

As to having as much of a preliminary idea as we can of what has happened to real people- I have always trusted Human Rights Watch more than the protaganists, what ever my inclination to the latter. [Duh.]

But there has been plenty of time to pretty reliably document what has been happening for the last 15 plus years. UNHCR stats, etc.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

I'm sure people will say I don't beleive everything. But you beleive much more of it than you would ever acccept from mainstream Western sources- despite the fact the 'alternative' sources you give qualified credibility to are cut from the same cloth.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

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Originally posted by KenS:
Nobody is discounting that Georgians perpetrated atrocities on Ossetians. At least I'm not.

A lot of that is absolutely going to happen. Thats the nature of these barbaric communal conflicts. They have plenty of momentum of their own, let alone with help from outside forces.

It proves nothing at all about the overall situation to document particular atrocities.

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Originally posted by KenS:
Its pathetic how some of you seem to think that being able to catch Western governments and media in lies, distortion, and blatantly self serving 'analysis' means that you should believe Russian sources instead.

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You're dismissing atrocities out of hand on the basis of some stereotype about "these barbaric communal conflicts"?

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Point out to me where I dismissed these atrocities at all, let alone 'out of hand'.

Read what I already said. I'm not rationalizing away atrocities 'because everyone does them' or something like that.

I'm saying that we know from past experience that there will be atrocities all around- depending on when and where who has the upper hand at the moment.

So particular stories of atrocities tell us nothing about the overall situation. And I already said that.

In fact, stories of particular atrocities is a main way these communal conflicst are continuously stoked, on all sides. For the role these stories play in stoking it doesn't even matter if they are fact or fiction. If the accounts are entirely factual [which is only a hypothetical] they do just as much stoking.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

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No, what's pathetic is people who, even after being shown that the Western governments and media are lying, still insist on accepting their phony version of events.

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Originally posted by KenS:

In the first place, you have every reason to distrust information coming from Western media. And since most of you come into it knowing nothing about these peoples, you are ripe for accepting what comes out of Russia.

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Ya, my local paper often includes a column or two from Pravda, Joe Dzhugashvili's old newspaper.

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I also knew how Stalin had drawn the boundaries to accentuate these ethnic tensions, moved populations about, etc.

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And now that Islamic Gladios and CIA have realized the power of the mullahs along the spice route and buffer nations once again, who knows? Sky's the limit for U.S.-orchestrated people's democracy in Central Asia - Central Asia, that region of the world which all rightwing political commentators believe is the key to controlling Asia overall and its vast repositories of mineral and oil wealth. Geopolitical aspirations for lebensraum of Russia never died.

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So unlike most of you, I’ve been watching these events in and around Georgia unfold for more than 15 years. I can’t provide singular links because I’ve never seen myself as a proponent for anything. I read what comes along. I have somewhere to fit it all in, a context to critique and know what interests and biases are behind what is written.

]... and Russia has never done a thing to protect ethnic Georgians in Ossetia.... those sift borders are going to become very hard, with all those Georgians on the wrong side... and...

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Who would Georgians(and Ossete neighbors) need protecting from other than Saakashvili's NATO-trained and armed fascist army raining rockets down on the capital in recent days?

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The reason there more Georgians than Abkhazians is because it was Stalinist policy to move them in. But they cleverly reserved the bulk of administrative positions for Abkhazians and Armenians. Nice historical set-up. And the early Nineties outcome was more than ugly.

So thats your basic background to recent events.

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And we can be sure that handing the bulk of administrative positions to Abkhazians and Armenians was a diabolical plot to appease minorities. While in the same general period, western corporations aided and abetted the building of Hitler's war machine so that he could attempt Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer and lebensraum of Russia, Baltics and Balkans before enslaving and cleansing the remainder of EurAsia. It's always good to revisit ad reducto Stalinium...mum. Selective history is an excellent way to express our favourite political points however timeless they may be. Stalin died in 1953 or so. Some say he was murdered. And Adolf took his own life. Soviets prolly would have had him drawn and quartered otherwise.

U.S. hidden hand pushes Ossetia war

by Sara Flounders

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Ossetia’s status

For 70 years South Ossetia, though bordered on three sides by Georgia, held the status of an Autonomous Oblast (Region) within the Soviet Federation. Its population is 70,000. The neighboring Republic of North Ossetia-Alania has maintained its status as an autonomous republic within the present-day Russian Federation. The Ossetians have a distinct Persian-related language and culture. Schools, publishing houses and theaters helped preserve Ossetian nationality within the Soviet Union.

With the collapse of socialist planning in the Soviet Union, socialist solidarity among its constituent nations broke down. The capitalist market brought chaos and upheaval that hit hardest at the many small nationalities as the Soviet Union ended. Contending gangs of privatizers seeking to grab hold of nationally owned property fueled and manipulated nationalist sentiment.

The reactionary, pro-capitalist leadership in Georgia suddenly abolished South Ossetia’s autonomous status and rights and annexed the small nation, as they did with Abkhazia, another small, autonomous nation strategically located on the Black Sea and surrounded by Georgia. In the resulting struggle, South Ossetia and Abkhazia each declared their independence from Georgia in 1991.

This led to a 17-year standoff, with both Georgian and Russian “peacekeepers” stationed in South Ossetia. The latest Georgian attack ended the standoff with a de facto attempt at annexation

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[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
This has been verified by many witnesses. Once the peacekeepers were pinned down, or dead, the civilians were much easier pickings. Over 1,600 of them were easy pickings.

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High Toll from Attacks on Populated Areas

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(Tbilisi, August 14, 2008) – Forces on both sides in the conflict between Georgia and Russia appear to have killed and injured civilians through indiscriminate attacks, respectively, on the towns of Tskhinvali and Gori, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch expressed its deep concern over the apparently indiscriminate nature of the attacks that have taken such a toll on civilians.

“Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian forces all have an obligation under international humanitarian law to protect civilians from attack,” said Holly Cartner, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “The latest information on civilian casualties in Tskhinvali, Gori and surrounding areas calls into question whether the forces are respecting that obligation.”

Attacks in Tskhinvali

When Human Rights Watch entered Tskhinvali on August 13, the city was largely deserted. Human Rights Watch researchers saw numerous apartment buildings and houses damaged by shelling. Some of them had been hit by rockets most likely fired from Grad launchers, weapons that should not be used in areas populated by civilians, as they cannot be directed at only military targets and are therefore inherently indiscriminate. Also, Human Rights Watch saw several buildings that bore traces of heavy ammunition as if fired from tanks at close range. There was some evidence of firing being directed into basements, locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter.

Casualty numbers in Tskhinvali

A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital.

The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city.

From August 8 to 11, the doctor said, staff had to move all the patients into the hospital basement because of the constant shelling. The doctor said the hospital was under fire for 18 hours. Human Rights Watch documented the damage caused to the hospital building by a rocket believed to have been fired from a Grad multiple rocket launcher which hit the hospital, severely damaging treatment rooms on the second and third floors.

The doctor told Human Rights Watch that she could not leave the hospital because of the heavy shelling. She also said that two sisters, hospital employees, were killed on August 8 or 9, as they were hiding in the basement of their house.

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But they have a good track record in conflicts like the recent round of hostilities: where regular and irregular forces openly and overtly attack civilian populations. And where sources to choose from are very thin.

Their bias shows when for example Israel or the US says it is attacking military targets. But when it is a matter of physical evidence shows wanton attacks on civilian targets by armed forces, they have a good track record for being even handed about who is doing the killing.

One can trust what Amnesty says in a more straightforward way. But this immediate conflict observance isn't there kind of thing. I don't know of a better single source than HRW. I'm certainly open to hearing others.

Where HRW can be useful, is in the heat of hostilities situation such as the last week... where it is routine for all armed forces involved to unleash attacks that either do not discriminate between civilian and military targets and/or could only be aimed at civilian populations.

Information on the numbers of refugees uprooted in 15 plus years of conflict of the area are much easier to come by and easier to cross check. For a lot of it, census data alone tells a great deal. [Though even that can become politicized. But its still far more transparent than logging casualties in current and continuing conflicts.]

Let alone what HRW or any media accounts say about who is currently/recently being killed in what estimated numbers, if you are inclined to accept Russian accounts that it is Georgians doing all/most of the attacking of civilians, then you haen't looked at the much more reliable accounts of the conflicts over the last 15 years.

[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

By the way there is no clear report from Gori, or witness accounts. Strange for them to assert that "forces on both sides in the conflict between Georgia and Russia appear to have killed and injured civilians through indiscriminate attacks, respectively, on the towns of Tskhinvali and Gori", when they are not reporting any specifics. The "both sides" mantra is more or less a safe bet, but for what is otherwise a detailed report, its kind of odd that there are no clear specifics about unwaranted shelling and the like of Gori.

They have a tendency to pad things out in a manner acceptable to the US line, I find. Their reporting on the Lebanon war, was a shameless bit of politicking.

[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

They are of no use and/or not to be trusted where civilian casualties can be chalked up to 'collateral damage'. Or where what is happening [or not] to civilians requires analysing patterns of intimidation, etc.

But there is an equality of barbarity and a predictability to the battles in the Caucuses. 'Warfare' is primitive with military attacks unleashed on everything- military and civilian- on the 'other side'. In such cases they have a track record of being even handed.

As compared to HRW observing Hezbollah and Israel, where they were less critical of Israel. even there, they did give quick credible and damning accounts of how many civilians Israel killed. But they also 'editorialized', damning Hezbollah for not even trying to focus on miliatry targets.

The conflicts around Georgia have a long established equality of barbarity where that HRW cant does not come into play. There, who gets the shit end of the stick at any particular time and place is just a matter of who has the upper hand at the moment. The methods don't change much.

HRW's accounts of the current conflict are consistent with the precedents of the last 15 years. Which includes on all sides a lot of wolesale exxageration or fabrication of atrocities that evaporate later but play a role in fanning the flames.

One does have to pay attention to HRWs cant. In this case, you can bet they are going to make sure they don't miss opportunities to find what happened to Gerogians. But you can also count on them vigorously digging for the evidence of what happened to Ossetians in Georgia's assault last week. As opposed to the Russian sources who will not do research that does not suit their cant, and go out of their way to not report or deny incontrovertable evidence.

[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

For example, the lack of specifics you noted about them throwing in Russian attacks on Gori with what happened to the Ossetian capital. It's fairly easy to see some of that is gratuitous addition. We know Gori did not come under wthering bombardment like the Ossetian capital. Most of the population of Gori would have fled out of reasonable fear that it was going to get worse.

And I find your argument a little unreasonable. Condi Rice is supposedly an expert on Russia and yet she failed to predict that a policy of encirclement and stick poking would lead them into action.

ETA: By the way, Russia has signed the ceasefire. Pat Buchanan makes a comparison I have been making for days that is worth reading against the shameful and cowardly response of our own government today and during the Lebanon war:

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American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight – Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

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[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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"There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," said the general staff in Moscow. "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."

The "enormous arsenals" are American-made or American-supplied. American money, know-how, planning, and equipment built these bases as part of Washington's drive to bring Nato membership to a small country that is Russia's underbelly.

The American "train and equip" mission for the Georgian military is six years old. It has been destroyed in as many days. And with it, Georgia's Nato ambitions….

In a seminal speech in Munich last year, Putin confidently warned the west that he would not tolerate the age of American hyperpower. Seven years in office at the time and at the height of his powers, he delivered his most anti-western tirade

To an audience that included John McCain, the White House contender, and Robert Gates, the US defence secretary and ex-Kremlinologist, he served notice: "What is a unipolar world? It refers to one type of situation, one centre of authority, one centre of force, one centre of decision-making. It is world in which there is one master, one sovereign. This is pernicious ... unacceptable ... impossible."

This week, he turned those words into action, demonstrating the limits of US power with his rout of Georgia….

As the Russian officers sat on the American stockpiles of machine guns, ammunition, and equipment in Gori, they were savouring a highly unusual scenario. Not since the Afghan war had the Russians seized vast caches of US weaponry. "People are sick to the stomach in Washington," said a former Pentagon official. And the Russians are giddy with success.

"Don't ask us who's good and who's bad here," said Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, after shuttling between Tbilisi and Moscow to try to halt the violence. "We shouldn't make any moral judgments on this war. Stopping the war, that's what we're interested in."

His boss, President Nicolas Sarkozy, went to the Kremlin to negotiate a ceasefire and parade as a peacemaker. Critics said he acted as Moscow's messenger, noting Putin's terms then taking them to Tbilisi to persuade Saakashvili to capitulate. Germany also refused to take sides while Italy warned against building an "anti-Moscow coalition".

That contrasted with Gordon Brown's and David Milliband's talk of Russian "aggression" and Condoleezza Rice's arrival in Tbilisi yesterday to rally "the free world behind a free Georgia"….

All around Russia's rim, the former Soviet "captive states" are trembling. Even Belarus, the slavishly loyal "last dictatorship in Europe", went strangely silent, taking days before the regime offered Moscow its support….

The EU states of the Baltic and Poland are drumming up support for Georgia, with the Polish president Lech Kaczynski declaring that Russia has revealed "its true face". That divides the EU since the French and the Germans refuse to take sides and are scornful of east European "hysteria" towards Russia. Rahr in Berlin says the German and French governments are striving to keep the Poles and the Baltic states well away from any EU-led peace negotiations. It was the Germans and the French who, in April, blunted George Bush's drive to get Georgia into Nato. They will also resist potential US moves to kick Russia out of the G8 or other international bodies.

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But that undermines the credibility of your argument, KenS. If you must continually agree HRW is a tool and is not credible, why not just find a more credible source whether it is Amnesty or Doctors Without Frontiers or another? Saying "this group of sycophants might not be so sycophantic today" really doesn't help your argument.

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For my own purposes, I've had my own sources all along. Remember that my main point is about the history of the communal conflicts in the area.

As to convincing people not to buy the Russian propaganda line of one sided atrocities perpetrtated, and would be perpetrated by Georgians were it not for Russia's help.... I'll make my case on what I know. But to be blunt, I've got enough of a life to live I'm not attending to without adding to it digging up sources.

Dismiss me for that if you like. But there's lots of information out there on the continuous stream of conflicts running back 15 years. Lots of opportunities for cross checking. Do your own looking if you care to know mre and not depend on others, be it me or Interfax. If I knew a single source I'd give it. Amnesty and Doctors don't have enough scope of info because the overall picture isn't in part of their focused mandate. HRW is the same by the way. They are just the ones who are there right now.

When it comes to current events we really don't have a lot to go on. So we're left with juggling more credible mainstream media reporters, Interfax, HRW, a very few knowledgeable indepent left journalists who have available to them more direct sources than the rest of us.

Thats why in response to Cueball I said how I looked at HRWs report. Sure its all qualified. But there is no one source available you can look at without such qalifications and reservations.

The reliability of information on events older than several months is totally different. You can cross chaeck all of it. But even there, I don't know a single source. I suggested wikipedia not because I would necessarily trust what is said there. But its a place people can start.

Just take a look at census data for both Ossetias and Abkhazia [although make sure you get data with footnotes about contentious recent numbers, good sources will give the range of claims].

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And I find your argument a little unreasonable. Condi Rice is supposedly an expert on Russia and yet she failed to predict that a policy of encirclement and stick poking would lead them into action.

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Thats transparent boloney. Condi is telling bedtime stories to keep the children from asking questions.

The only grain of truth is that their chronic [and convenient] optmism leads them to think maybe Russia will make it easy and just lay down and take it. But they'll take the hard way of Russia fighting back, and raise you five.

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ETA: By the way, Russia has signed the ceasefire.

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So what? The ceasefire allows them to meet all their strategic goals. At a minimum, they destroy the Georgian military with no more messy bloodshed even, and the ceasefire gives them room to achieve lord knows what else on top of that still. It even allows them in practice to complete the de facto absorption of Ossetia and Abkhazia even though their are paper guarantees to the contrary for Georgia.

But I don't have a pproblem with Russia's military aims and achievements, not a problem thats any different with the concerns about the US. If it didn't have an effect on civilian populations I wouldn't say a thing.

What I strenuously object to is one sided accounts that act as if Gerogia and Gerogians the only or primary perpetrator of wars on civilians.

I'll emphasise again that I by no means say that they don't perpetrate them, or didn't last week. They do the same as everybody else involved when they have the stronger hand.

One sided accounts of atrocities are a propaganda tool used for fanning the flames.

I'm sure there will turn out to be indisputable accounts of some atrocities committed last week by the Gerogian military. Beltov's repeated apocryphal account of the church burning may even turn out to be true. The bulk of such atrocity stories from all sides evaporate later, after serving their propoganda purpose. Even whne they are true, their one side telling as if nothing else was going is just as much a propaganda tool.

The things that get called atrocities typically serve as red herrings to cover the less sensational "normal" ongoing attacks on civilian populations: such as the Gerogian shelling of the capital, such as the relentless pogroms against Gerogians in Ossetia, the vastly steeped up ethnic cleansing of Georgian villagers after the Gergian bombardment of the capital....

It's endless. And whoever started it, Gerogians have with but very temporary spurts been by far the most numerous victims.

[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

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There will be far more Georgian than Ossetian refugees when the dust settles. Its unlikely any of the Georgians who were the overwhelming majority of the rural population around the capital (of South Ossetia - N.Beltov) will be able to come back.

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If that really is true, whose fault is that, Ken? The Ossetians? The Russians? Or Saakashvili, the tyrant of Tbilisi? When you're agnostic on the initial slaughter of the Ossetians and Russian peacekeepers, it's easy to blame the latter for the consequences of the Georgian attack.

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KenS: What I strenuously object to is one side accounts that act as if Gerogia and Gerogians the only or primary perpetrator of wars on civilians.

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If you're unwilling to stick your neck out far enough to try and identify the key event here, why find fault with anyone? Just tut-tut all participants in the conflict and fart in their general direction.

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As to convincing people not to buy the Russian propaganda line of one sided atrocities perpetrtated, and would be perpetrated by Georgians were it not for Russia's help.... I'll make my case on what I know. But to be blunt, I've got enough of a life to live I'm not attending to without adding to it digging up sources.

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This is not about atrocities. War - all war - is a series of atrocities and the victims are almost always mostly civilian if not directly during hostilities then in the aftermath.

The question for me is what leads to war? I accept the physical law that every action is followed by an equal and opposite reaction. To blame the Russians for reacting, finally (and even if they have been in preparation for years), is stupid in the extreme when it was the actions of the West, and the Clinton/Bush regimes in particular, that set in motion the actions that have now led to this reaction that in turn leads, clearly and transparently, to a new arms race and places us back on the brink of nuclear war.

Stupid, utterly stupid, people are in charge of the planet and we are all a helpless, captured audience locked in a theatre set to be torched.

Anyone looking to take sides in this and to cheerlead one side over the other is equally stupid.

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So what?

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Finally, let me say I take some offense to your characterization of these so-called "ancient hostilities" to which we always seem to stereotype warring Europeans, Asians, and others but rarely ourselves.

I come from such "ancient hostilities" and despite so, I see that my parents and grandparents made efforts to not live in hate, to have friendships and business relationships with those on the other side and to attempt to overcome those old ethnic hostilities.

Contrast that with Western culture where we don't care who or how many we kill as, like any organized crime family, it is all just business.

Coming from a European stock with a long history of ethnic rivalry, I would rather face an angry rival with blood and passion and a love for life than the cold, murderous precision of Western economic interests.

[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

But those are just hypotheticals.

Russia stands back [to a degree at least] only when its clients are winning. As was the case in Abkhazia.

It wasn't just nationalism and jingoism that motivated Gerogians. They had legitimate fears about what would happen if Abkhazia and Ossetia became independent.

In Abkhazia it happened. In Ossetia it was creeping along at the same pace as Osetians got de facto control.

Despit all that there is no even qualified excuse for the adventurist Gerogian attack last week. A russian military reply had to happen.

But you can bet your booties Russian action doesn't stop at re-evening the playing field for the Ossetians.

It won't be a matter of just disabling the Gerogians from making another attempt. It won't stop until Ossetia is fully independent and has a free and unhindered hand to complete the expelling of Georgians from areas wher they have been the majority population... as already happened on a much bigger scale and more violently in Abkhazia.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
I actually caught a brief clip of Bush who, in between mouthfuls of spray, talked about Russia versus the "free world". The irony sailed over his head. This idiot has watched too many John Wayne and Sly Stallone movies during his alcohol and drug-soaked Frat Boy days and is embarrassing his country so badly that I am beginning to think it is a clever plot to make the rest of the world feel sorry for the good old USA. I know I feel badly for a country that has such an idiot for a President.

Wait a minute. There's that seal pup at 24 Sussex Drive as well, he's pretty annoying ...

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Thank you Beltov for your excellent example of Putin Poodlery. You are more amusing than annoying but I prefer Rick Salutin's take.

In his Truth, Lies and Foreign Wars article, he cautions cynics to accept a more holistic scepticism instead of the cynical reaction geopolitical posturing usually engenders in those of us who don't believe any side.

This advice,of course does not appy to unidimensional apologists such as yourself but for a more objective view, Mr. Salutin is hard to beat.

It is exceedingly difficult to ascertaine the true situation in these disputes but the Russians have proven themselves more than willing use military invasion of sovereign neighbours as a foreign policy tool. Nothing has changed. The Russians were merely too poor since the collapse of the USSR to pursue any military ambitions.

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jester: It is exceedingly difficult to ascertain the true situation in these disputes ...

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It's worth the effort and in my humble view it's not that difficult to determine an answer to the key question ... as I've tried to outline above in regard to some remarks by KenS.

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As Mr. Salutin says, welcome to the 19th century

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"People who start wars don’t get to decide how and when they end."

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Not really ... as I argued above, the start of the 2oth century was a contest for control of fossil fuels at the dawn of the oil age, what is happening now is a contest for control of the same resources at the dusk of the oil age.

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I think Mr. Salutin is pointing out the resumption of the geopolitical Great Game. This time, the stakes are energy and access thereto from the former USSR republics and Russia has signaled that it is back in the game, fueled by its $470 billion in foreign currency reserves.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

It's worth the effort and in my humble view it's not that difficult to determine an answer to the key question ... as I've tried to outline above in regard to some remarks by KenS.

Here's a hint. Investigate what countries like Turkey, for example, have to say about the events in South Ossetia. If you're of the opinion that Russian media is completely worthless then simply look for other sources that substantiate the same information.

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I'm not of the opinion that Russian media is worthless any more than I am of the opinion that western media is worthy. I regularly peruse Turkish and Pakistani media for good in-depth analysis.

I relate to the Georgian debacle from a geopolitical perspective. Life is just too short and too much fun to spend it debating the merits of claims and counterclaims by mendacious parties who are equally culpable.

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I think Mr. Salutin is pointing out the resumption of the geopolitical Great Game. This time, the stakes are energy and access thereto from the former USSR republics and Russia has signaled that it is back in the game, fueled by its $470 billion in foreign currency reserves.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Yes, I'm sure. BTW, was there a link?

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here

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
That piece from Pat Buchanan is astonishing. I guess we just have a lot of babblers to the right of Pat Buchanan these days. What a laugh.

"People who start wars don’t get to decide how and when they end."

Buchanan seems to understand the concept pretty well. Why is it that so-called "progressive" babblers can't find their own ass with both hands on this issue?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
It really is astonishing, isn't it?

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I relate to the Georgian debacle from a geopolitical perspective. Life is just too short and too much fun to spend it debating the merits of claims and counterclaims by mendacious parties who are equally culpable.

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