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Author Topic: Report:US abstinence demands hamper Africa's ability to fight AIDS
Hephaestion
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posted 31 March 2005 05:08 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
(Kampala, Uganda) A human rights group said Uganda's progress against AIDS is at risk.

In a report released Wednesday, Human Rights Watch said Uganda's president has fallen under the influence of Christian conservatives in the United States and is now promoting abstinence more, and condoms less, among young people.

The report said U.S.-funded abstinence-only programs are jeopardizing Uganda's successful fight against HIV and AIDS. As a result, millions of young Ugandans could become infected by HIV, the group said.

"Abstinence messages should complement other HIV-prevention strategies, not undermine them," said Jonathan Cohen, a researcher with Human Rights Watch's HIV/AIDS Program and one of the report's authors.


As if they didn't have enough problems with that crazy old bastard in the vatican!


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Stargazer
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posted 31 March 2005 05:17 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know what the worst thing about this is? No one has the guts to do anything about these destructive US policies. That makes me sick.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 31 March 2005 05:28 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't get the sense that Africa is having Christianity forced on it. As I understand it, Christian churches are growing in popularity in both Africa and Asia. Quickly.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 31 March 2005 06:51 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And another world "leader" joins the ranks of the intellectually sub-human. Anybody got a gun?

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]


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Stargazer
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posted 31 March 2005 06:53 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty sure Gunlobby does, but he was turfed. Try Springer.
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NDP Newbie
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posted 31 March 2005 06:53 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Reich will fight with them, why must we be afraid?
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Hephaestion
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posted 31 March 2005 07:59 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by NDP Newbie:
And another world "leader" joins the ranks of the intellectually sub-human.

FYI, the government in Uganda has never allowed discussion of gays or lesbians, or even a mention of them in its AIDS literature. It has never been what you could call "liberal", at least to Western sensibilities.


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puzzlic
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posted 09 July 2005 11:38 PM      Profile for puzzlic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
East Africa is not having Christianity forced upon it -- that was already done 100 years ago. Right now all that's happening is that USAID is insisting that US-funded evangelical Christian groups get veto power over HIV-education materials.

These groups use that veto power to insist on replacing information about the importance of correct and consistent condom use with messages that Africans should just abstain until marriage to a virgin who will remain faithful.

Sadly, the toll of HIV has left many pubescent and teenage AIDS orphans who have no parents to care for them and no way to support themselves, which often leaves them vulnerable to exploitation by older men who offer school fees or support for the kid and younger siblings in exchange for sex. You can guess just how much power the young girl (or boy) might have in such circumstances to just say no, or to insist on condom use.

Oh, and then the Ugandan government has been impounding shipments of condoms, creating a condom shortage in the country.

In a country with a high prevalence of HIV like Uganda, every sexually active person is at risk of infection -- even if they're married. Indeed, in high-prevalence regions of Africa, marriage is actually a risk factor, not a protective factor, for women. In such circumstances, any policy that censors information about condom use and impedes people's access to them is simply a murderous.

I've posted this link on another thread, but if anyone's interested, I would highly recommend the full HRW report,"The Less They Know, the Better: Abstinence-Only HIV/AIDS Programs in Uganda.

These Christian anti-sex crusaders are just evil. Bad enough they're increasing US adolescents' risk of pregnancy and STDs by ineffective "don't have sex" programs that teach that sex is immoral, contraception is dangerous, condoms don't work and gays and lesbians must embrace lifelong celibacy. But when they try export their failed policies to countries like Uganda, where unprotected sex is highly likely to lead to HIV infection and where "just saying no" to sex is even less feasible for many young people than it is in the US ...

[ 09 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]


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Betray My Secrets
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posted 11 July 2005 11:59 PM      Profile for Betray My Secrets     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The policies backed by the Bush Administration will cause so many deaths in Africa as to make Osama look like those kids who vandalised my local curling centre.

I wouldn't be surprised if abstinence-only "solutions" to Africa's AIDS crisis cause more deaths than Hitler's Holocaust, Pot's Khmer Rouge massacres, or Mao's Cultural Revolution, and perhaps even rival Stalin's purges.


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Albion1
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posted 15 July 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You know what the worst thing about this is? No one has the guts to do anything about these destructive US policies. That makes me sick.


Especially the American people!!!!!


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Nikita
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posted 15 July 2005 03:04 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Betray My Secrets:
The policies backed by the Bush Administration will cause so many deaths in Africa as to make Osama look like those kids who vandalised my local curling centre.

I wouldn't be surprised if abstinence-only "solutions" to Africa's AIDS crisis cause more deaths than Hitler's Holocaust, Pot's Khmer Rouge massacres, or Mao's Cultural Revolution, and perhaps even rival Stalin's purges.



USian backed abstinence programs add up to genocide, as far as I'm concerned. But this way it's harder to pin the responsibility on the US.

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]


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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 08:02 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The policies backed by the Bush Administration will cause so many deaths in Africa
quote:
USian backed abstinence programs add up to genocide
Please explain.

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MartinArendt
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posted 15 July 2005 08:34 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, no, now look folks:

See, the thing is, if people just didn't have sex with each other, you see...well, then, you wouldn't have problems. In my opinion, the Christian Right just hasn't gone far enough. They should demonstrate the paragons of virtue that they are by, as they say, practicing what they preach.

Quite frankly, if they were really committed to abstinence only, they would stop having sex altogether. No sex before marriage, no sex after marriage, no sex at all. I think if every Christian fundamentalist demonstrated this reasonable policy, the world would be a much better place in about a generation or so.


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Rufus Polson
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posted 15 July 2005 08:42 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are actually some medieval cults that did die out that way, believe it or not.
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Nikita
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posted 15 July 2005 08:45 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Martin:

caoimhin: I consider it an act of genocide because the US wants to stop people from teaching the facts about AIDS (how it is spread and how people can use condoms properly to prevent infection) and stop the distribution of condoms because of the Christian fundamentalist beliefs. Abstinence-only programs do not work and denying people condoms is not going to stop them from having sex, and AIDS will continue to run unchecked through Africa and the rest of the world.
I consider this genocide because the US Christian fundamentalist groups are deliberately and knowlingly letting more and more African people become infected with AIDS, from which they will die because the vast majority of Africans can't afford AIDS medicine, and neither can their governments.
I consider this genocide because these people are willing to watch innocent Africans die of a preventable disease and they will do nothing to stop it.

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]


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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 09:08 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nik,
Only the US and only Christians, eh? Is that what I am hearing?

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Boom Boom
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posted 15 July 2005 09:36 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dear God, please save us from the fundies.
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Nikita
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posted 15 July 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who else is it then?
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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Boom boom.
I have a great recipe for bananas foster. Interested?

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puzzlic
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posted 15 July 2005 09:58 PM      Profile for puzzlic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Only the US and only Christians, eh? Is that what I am hearing?
Yes. USAID is the only country funding abstinence-only HIV programs in Uganda, and it is doing so through Ugandan Christian fundamentalist churches that are funded by US Christian fundamentalist churches. If you don't believe it, read the Human Rights Watch report cited above.

Until late 2002, the Ugandan government's (successful) HIV-reduction policy entailed giving HIV-educators free rein do whatever prevention efforts they thought would work. These educators, in turn, fought HIV and ignorance about it by promoting the following: delayed sexual debut, partner reduction, alleviated stigma for people with AIDS, access to free and voluntary testing, and CONSISTENT, CORRECT use of condoms -- wherever needed, through whatever means will reach people. And the prevalence of HIV declined.

In the past couple of years or so, at USAID's behest, the Ugandan government has completely changed its policy: now they have prohibited education about condom use and access in curriculum materials, replacing it with exhortations of no-sex-until-marriage (an impractical exhortation in a country where many primary students are in their late teens (because the recent abolition of school fees allowed many teenagers who had to drop out because they could not afford it to return to school); many kids are AIDS orphans who find themselves pressured into relationships with older men in order to support themselves and their younger (often sick) siblings; and telling kids to abstain from sex doesn't work even in North America, where the economic situation is much easier). The government's position is now that young people should abstain until marriage, married people should always be faithful, and neither of these groups should use condoms. Condoms, the government teaches, are suitable only for "prostitutes and other high-risk groups".

Worse, the government and US-funded agencies and churches are promoting the falsehood that condoms don't work because of alleged microscopic holes big enough for HIV to pass through. And worst of all, the government has recently impounded shipments of hundreds of thousands of condoms, manufacturing a condom shortage in Uganda.

It may not be deliberate genocide, but there is definitely an element of wilful blindness to the consequences of this policy: people will have sex, as people like to do (and, too often, have to do); they will not use condoms because they can't get them and have been told they don't work anyway; they will get infected with HIV and infect their spouses, partners and children.

Kinda puts a whole new spin on "pro-life", doesn't it?

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]


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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 09:58 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Who else is it then?
What??? C'mon.

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Boom Boom
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posted 15 July 2005 10:00 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know - what is 'bananas foster'? And, why me? Is it something I said?
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Hinterland
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posted 15 July 2005 10:07 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If Cao manages to explain that, it will be about the first time he's ever made sense.
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Nikita
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posted 15 July 2005 10:18 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:
What??? C'mon.

Thread title: US abstinence demands hamper Africa's ability to fight AIDS.
I said what I think about USian abstinence tactics in terms of the AIDS epidemic in Africa.
I don't understand what you're getting at caoimhin.


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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 10:44 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes.
Wrong.
quote:
USAID is the only country funding abstinence-only HIV programs in Uganda,
Uganda is not all of Africa nor is USAID a country. Promoting condoms to 'high risk' elements of the population is not 'abstinance only'. Churches exist outside the U.S. as do bishops, some even in Africa.
quote:
.....falsehood that condoms don't work
They don't work all the time now do they, microscopic holes or not. I see nothing wrong with promoting both abstinence and condoms together. Both have inherent benefits to fighting this disease. Thebo Mebiki(sp?) himself said fighting poverty will fight AIDS. I don't know what the commitment the US has alotted in terms of money to fight AIDS, but I figure its around tensofbillionsofdollars or so. Not all of that money is earmarked for 'abstinence only' programmes? Getting condoms to people who need them is not the only responsiblilty of the the US taxpayer or of USAID.
Nik,
quote:
I said what I think about USian abstinence tactics
And you haven't the foggiest idea of what other religions or nations - in Africa - have said or do say on the subject. That is why you don't 'don't understand'.
BANANAS FOSTER.
chunk of butter, couple o tablesppons of brown suger. melt together on low heat. add sliced bananas and saute until mushylike. add shot of rum, turn off the lights, light the rum, watch the flame. sprinkle with cinnamon when flame retires, spoon over good quality vanilla ice cream, enter heaven.

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Hinterland
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posted 15 July 2005 10:47 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It has been very hot in Windsor for quite some time now, I hear.
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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 10:54 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
not the heat, stupid, the humidity.
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Hinterland
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posted 15 July 2005 11:06 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The effect of course, being largely the same, eh Cao? Though seriously, the mind boggles at any force able to make you even stupider.
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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 11:10 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The effect of course, being largely the same, eh Cao?
No.
quote:
Though seriously, the mind boggles at any force able to make you even stupider.
Care to back that up?

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Hinterland
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posted 15 July 2005 11:11 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bananas Foster, anyone?
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puzzlic
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posted 15 July 2005 11:14 PM      Profile for puzzlic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And I so naively believed that if people only knew the facts, they'd be outraged ...

Upon rereading my post: oops. Silly me. I should have said, "The United States, through its official foreign aid agency, USAID, is the only country ..." etc. Guess that oversight proves Cao's point that the US isn't the only country funding this abstinence-only nonsense

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]


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Nikita
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posted 15 July 2005 11:15 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I see nothing wrong with promoting both abstinence and condoms together

Me neither. My point is that some people are sexually abused and don't have the choice of either abstinence or a condom in that situation.

(edited because I know damn well what my point is)

quote:
And you haven't the foggiest idea of what other religions or nations - in Africa - have said or do say on the subject

Don't presume to tell me what I know. Furthermore, I wasn't talking about other nations or religions in Africa. I was commenting on AMERICAN initiatives which I see as being harmful.

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]


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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 11:19 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hinterland. If you are willing to explain why I am stupid or to challenge what I have written or how I may have missed the point you tried to convey I will not call you a defect.
Puzzles. You presented your facts and I have challenged them. Get on with it.

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puzzlic
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posted 15 July 2005 11:23 PM      Profile for puzzlic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, don't hold back, Cao. Please enlighten us as to the true facts that eluded Human Rights Watch, but were revealed to you.
From: it's too damn hot | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 11:32 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I guess my point....
Are you just getting around now to figuring out what your point is. Gheesh.
quote:
some people are sexually abused....
Then thats a related issue, when speaking of AIDS, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with either the US government or Christians, now does it. Do you agree?

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MartinArendt
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posted 15 July 2005 11:36 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Woah...

Ok, here's a piece of advice, caoimhin. Please don't take this the wrong way, but nothing you've said makes any sense, and if you continue arguing with puzzlic, you will get schooled like you have never gotten schooled before.

To quote from The Big Lebowski:

"Forget it Donny! You're out of your element."


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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 11:36 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"The United States, through its official foreign aid agency, USAID, is the only country ..."
And you would still be wrong.

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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 11:39 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
but nothing you've said makes any sense
you neither. Cribbage?

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Nikita
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posted 15 July 2005 11:40 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You can talk circles around me all you want. I cannot support initiatives by any country or religion that promote ignorance and restricts the distribution of condoms. Yes, abstinence is the best way to prevent AIDS. But you know what? People have sex. All the time. People need to know the truth about AIDS, how is it is transmitted and how it can be prevented. Keeping Africans ignorant about that isn't going to make the problem go away.

I have a question for you: are all Africans Christian? If not, why should Christian morality about sex be forced on them? Should they not be able to make their own choices about sex? Why should they be denied condoms because Christians are opposed to them?

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]


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MartinArendt
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posted 15 July 2005 11:46 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
DONNY What tied the room together, Dude?

WALTER Were you listening to the story, Donny?

DONNY What--

WALTER Were you listening to the Dude's story?

DONNY I was bowling--

WALTER So you have no frame of reference, Donny. You're like a child who wanders in in the middle of a movie and wants to know--

DUDE What's your point, Walter?

WALTER There's no fucking reason--here's my point, Dude--there's no fucking reason--

DONNY Yeah Walter, what's your point?

WALTER Huh?

DUDE What's the point of--we all know who was at fault, so what the fuck are you talking about?

WALTER Huh? No! What the fuck are you talking--I'm not--we're talking about unchecked aggression here--

DONNY What the fuck is he talking about?

DUDE My rug.

WALTER Forget it, Donny. You're out of your element.


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puzzlic
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posted 15 July 2005 11:49 PM      Profile for puzzlic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
you will get schooled like you have never gotten schooled before.
*blush* Aww, Martin, I'm so flattered

From: it's too damn hot | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 11:50 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I cannot support initiatives by any country or religion that promote ignorance
So why single out US Christians?
quote:
Keeping Africans ignorant about that isn't going to make the problem go away.
Christians aren't the only ones.
quote:
But you know what? People have sex. All the time. People need to know the truth about AIDS, how is it is transmitted and how it can be prevented.
we agree.
quote:
are all Africans Christian?
No.
quote:
why should Christian morality about sex be forced on them?
Christians aren't the only ones questioning the use of condoms when discussing AIDS.
quote:
Should they not be able to make their own choices about sex?
They should or should not do as they please. However, doing as they please may not reduce the spread of AIDS.
quote:
Why should they be denied condoms because Christians are opposed to them?

sigh.

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caoimhin
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posted 15 July 2005 11:52 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
School me, puzzles. Have at it. Please.
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Nikita
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posted 15 July 2005 11:57 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So why single out US Christians?

Because that is what the article and this thread are about. I'm perfectly aware that there are other groups out there doing the same thing.
quote:
Should they not be able to make their own choices about sex?
They should or should not do as they please. However, doing as they please may not reduce the spread of AIDS.

That's not what I meant and I'm pretty sure you know it. I don't advocate dangerous sexual practices, not for a second. But if they aren't Christian they shouldn't have to conform to Christian morality. I would hope that with proper education and resources (ie: the dreaded condoms!) people make educated decisions about sex.

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caoimhin
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posted 16 July 2005 12:00 AM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I would hope that with proper education and resources (ie: the dreaded condoms!) people make educated decisions about sex.
And if they don't, thats because of Christian morality?

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Nikita
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posted 16 July 2005 12:03 AM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't what?

If they don't make educated decisions? How is someone supposed to make educated decisions without the education?

If they choose not to use condoms? That is their choice, just like it is anyone's choice. It's a bad choice, to be sure, and I would never, ever say that someone should choose that. I believe people should be personally responsible to not only protect themselves against AIDS or STIs, but protect their partners.

So, if someone wants to be smart and responsible and use a condom, but there are no condoms, what are they supposed to do?

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
puzzlic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9646

posted 16 July 2005 12:16 AM      Profile for puzzlic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nikita, I'm beginning to see what Hint was getting at ... I don't think there's much point arguing with Cao unless and until s/he makes a coherent assertion. As far as I'm concerned, Cao's non-sequiturs have pretty much derailed this thread for now. Besides, I'm tired. Maybe s/he'll be gone in the morning. G'night!
From: it's too damn hot | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
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posted 16 July 2005 12:19 AM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Point taken. Have a good night.
From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 16 July 2005 12:26 AM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If they choose not to use condoms? That is their choice, just like it is anyone's choice.
I thought you and puzzlic were saying it was US christians and the US gov making the choice for them not to make us of condoms. I was lead to believe from your comments that only the united states had a monopoly on the manufacturing of condoms and no condoms ever got into Africa because of US Christians. I thought you were saying only christian morality was the thing causing your genocide in Africa.
quote:
So, if someone wants to be smart and responsible and use a condom, but there are no condoms, what are they supposed to do?
Not come to the conclusion, like you did, that the only reason there won't be a condom in the country or continent is because of US Christians and their morality.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
rabble-rouser
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posted 16 July 2005 12:32 AM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok this is my last post on this thread, I swear!

The US and the Christian fundies are not the only group doing this. However, they are a large group with lots of influence and money and they are not helping the situation at all.

A better, more realistic approach to the AIDS problem is needed as opposed to what is in place right now. BY EVERYONE.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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