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Author Topic: The Israeli Peace Camp
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 13 April 2008 11:09 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It has been said on this board that the Israeli Peace Camp has been severely weakened since the days of the first Lebanon war in the early 80s. Why has the Camp become so marginal and how can they become a powerful force in Israeli politics again.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 13 April 2008 11:24 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michel Warschawski is very negative about the prospects, and this was BEFORE the 2006 invasion of Lebanon, to the point that he uses the expression, "The Left Gives Up" in one of his sub-headings.

The New Israel

quote:
Only a small minority is continuing to fight, both for the rights of the Palestinian people and to stop Israel’s transformation into a fundamentalist state that has shed its last democratic pretenses. Will this remnant be able to block Israeli society’s rush to destruction, and stop the country from crashing into the wall of hatred around the world that Israelis are building with their own hands? The relationship of forces is not encouraging, and time is short.

Grim indeed. However, since W. wrote his piece there have been outside players that have ramped up the boycott campaign, including here in this country. In Canada an independent Jewish organization has struggled to its feet, under a hail of blows, and one hopes that the youngster will soon learn to walk. It may just be that Israeli peace forces need a little help from their friends ... which may just be forthcoming. Shalom.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zaklamont
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posted 16 April 2008 12:53 AM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Israeli Peace Camp has weakened because withdrawal from Gaza, provoking a near civil war in Israel, has brought only destruction and not the hoped-for benefits of peace promotion.

The Israeli Peace Camp has weakened because withdrawal from southern Lebanon has brought only destruction at the hands of Hezbollah, and not the hoped-for benefits of peace promotion.


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 April 2008 04:01 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe that most jews including mainstream Jewish groups would consider themselves in the "Israeli peace camp". All want peace; all want an end to the occupation; all have supported a two-state solution. The difference being that such peace ought not come as a result of ongoing terrorism. While I believe an avenue must be found to negotiate with enemies, such enemies like Hamas cannot maintain that israel must be destroyed as a first line of negotiation.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 16 April 2008 04:26 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The difference being that such peace ought not come as a result of ongoing terrorism

I agree. So at your next CJC meeting, you should suggest that all Israeli terrorism toward Palestinians stop immediately.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 16 April 2008 05:41 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would argue that once Hamas renounces its stated desire to destroy Israel then if Israel does not jump on that opportunity Israel should be internationally rebuked.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 16 April 2008 07:23 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But until then, Israel should just keep building the apartheid wall, and more settlements, and continue to create more Palestinian Bantustans ... right?
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 April 2008 07:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Palestinians already did this song and dance in 94.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 16 April 2008 01:33 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well if so Arafat led a choir that sang out of tune ..
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 16 April 2008 03:04 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice metaphor. Settlement expansion, land confistication, housing demolition, checkpoints, you know, the Occupation (shhhh) : there's a wonderful overture! So skillfuly performed.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 April 2008 05:51 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and singing harmony, suicide bombings, quasam rockets and kidnapping
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 April 2008 07:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How many thousands of kidnapped Palestinians are in Israeli prisons again...you know, those that weren't incinerated by Hellfire missiles?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 April 2008 07:25 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i am sure you meant to say how many criminals are in Israeli jails.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
viigan
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posted 16 April 2008 07:56 PM      Profile for viigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"i am sure you meant to say how many criminals are in Israeli jails."

Not enough - most of them are still in uniform or in office.


From: here | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 16 April 2008 10:14 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
i am sure you meant to say how many criminals are in Israeli jails.

Sometimes, ohara, you make it too damn easy.

quote:
Administrative detention is detention without charge or trial, authorized by administrative order rather than by judicial decree. It is allowed under international law, but, because of the serious injury to due process rights inherent in this measure and the obvious danger of abuse, international law has placed rigid restrictions on its application. Administrative detention is intended to prevent the danger posed to state security by a particular individual. Israel, however, has never defined the criteria for what constitutes "state security."

Israel's use of administrative detention blatantly violates these restrictions. Over the years, Israel has held Palestinians in prolonged detention without trying them and without informing them of the suspicions against them. While detainees may appeal the detention, neither they nor their attorneys are allowed to see the evidence. Israel has therefore made a charade out of the entire system of procedural safeguards in both domestic and international law regarding the right to liberty and due process.


quote:
By the beginning of March 2003, Israel held more than one thousand Palestinians in administrative detention. In 2007, Israel held a monthly average of 830 administrative detainees, which was one hundred higher than in 2006.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 17 April 2008 03:31 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Personally I deplore the use of administrative detention. But I hate terrorism much more. I detest those who would wantonly use themselves to murder innocent people in Israeli marketplaces. It like a wheel that cannot stop turning. End the occupation; end terrorism; negotiate a proper and acceptable two-state solution....what ever comes first must happen soon
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 17 April 2008 05:07 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If resistance to the Israeli atrocities and occupation ended tomorrow, then Israel would simply have a freer hand to ethnically cleanse territory of Palestinians more efficiently.

The fact is that complicated problems require identifying the key or fundamental causes of those problems in order to have a realistic possibility of a solution: Occupation; the wall and other policies of Apartheid; Bantustans; open air imprisonment of entire populations; the prevention of a viable Palestinian state from ever taking hold. These are cornerstones of current Israeli policies and ensure that nothing will change, even if acts of individual terror continue.

In fact, a good case can be made that the population of Siderot, for example, rather than being moved to safety, are being used by Israel as cannon fodder to justify the cornerstones and current policies in general.

It's useful to have a few victims when you're cutting the power and water supply to entire populations, firing missiles from helicopter gunships at old men in wheelchairs, carrying out extra-judicial targeted assassinations, imprisoning Parliamentarians and children, and causing the deaths of pregnant mothers with a dizzying array of checkpoints and institutionalized humiliations. It's useful because something has to be done to stop the moral impoverishment of a population that looks the other way at such things. And bombing followed by whimpering in self-pity, as Michel Warschawski puts it, only leads to an inward looking and a blaming of others. An Open Tomb

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 17 April 2008 11:44 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Personally I deplore the use of administrative detention.
Then why your response to Al-Q that would suggest otherwise?

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 April 2008 02:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Originally posted by ohara:
i am sure you meant to say how many criminals are in Israeli jails.
Sometimes, ohara, you make it too damn easy.

It's really easy when one believes that being Palestinian is a criminal offence.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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