But do I want a head to head conflict? No. What would be the point? I'm 36 years old, more than old enough to own my own faults, patterns and mistakes. I don't have to blame them on her anymore, whether she had a hand in creating them or not. It just doesn't matter now. It's my life, I get to decide whether to accept or reject what I've been taught.

There comes a time when you have to quit blaming and find solutions. Picking a fight with your mother isn't much of a solution. It's also not very mature.

My mother and I actually have a sort of truce these days. I don't expect her to be pleased with everything I do, and vice versa. And that frees both of us up to not have to try so hard.

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

My generation, and probably the next one down, has a tendency to apply its own rules - retroactively! - to people who had quite different points of references, a different vocabulary, a different set of criteria.

They are people dealing with their own set of limitations, disappoints and disillusions just like the rest of us.

While we may feel that they should have handled such and such a situation better or more understandingly they did what they were capable of just as we do with our own children.

Most of the things I was angry with my mother about I now see was really all she knew how to do. Sometimes it was about protecting me, sometimes it was about her own insecurities and sometimes she was just in a bad mood. All in all though I've come to realize that she was another woman dealing with a life that was not all she had hoped it would be and she had more than her share of disappointments and struggles.

Unfortunately she is gone now and I can't express to her how much I understand her now and how strong I think she was.

The fact they live apart has helped a great deal.

I think the very bad relationship between the two, and my inability to handle it, contributed to the break down of my marriage. The house was a place of stress almost everyday, and it told on me, and my other two daughters.

It's beyond me how two people can say such hurtful things to each other. They were similar in that in a dispute, both reflexively go for the jugular, and both would rather die than let the other have the last word, and any little thing could erupt into a full blown scream-a-rama.

I grew up in such a way that did nothing to prepare me for such a thing, and it seems every approach I took was wrong.

We almost sent my eldest to live with my niece, but at the last moment I but the kiabosh on the deal. There was something in my head that just screamed "wrong" about it and I couldn't do it.

I think that event was one of the turning points in our marriage. My wife took it as me taking sides against her, which it wasn't. I just thought we were a family, and that the correct approach was to stay together and work out the difficulties.

It just struck me as wrong to basically turf your child out of home. I think kids have to always have a place called home to come home to.

In retrospect, I would still have stuck to my guns and kept my eldest at home.

I set upon a plan, and told both of them that to repair thier relationship, they first had to stop hurting each other, and learn not to say the nasitest thing that happened to pop into their minds during a squabble. The separate living arrangements have made this part easier. It's going to take a while before the repair part starts to really take hold, though.

Some years ago, one of my sisters went through a painful time doing what nonesuch describes above as applying our rules retroactively to our mother. That's the only time I've had this conversation before now. I found it hard at first to understand why my sister was so bothered, even though I agreed with her that there was a whole list of topics neither one of us would ever raise with Mum, never even try to discuss with her.

Maybe I was an evil child, but I remember deciding very early on (at eight?) that my parents were both wonderful but hopelessly "old-fashioned," and from then on (with the exception of the political battles I had with my dad in my late teens) the fact that I had to acquire my own "externals" -- how to think about the way the rest of the world treated me, or judged me, or offered me opportunities -- never really bothered me. I think of it now and I realize that I have spent the rest of my life protecting my parents a bit -- not a lot, but a bit. Every once in a while over the years I have tried challenging my mother on issues that I know are hard for her, beyond her experience -- and I've instantly felt like an utter creep for doing that, especially when she responds in the way she always does, so gently ...

All the same, I know that the pain my sister was feeling was real. "I can't talk to my own mother about [fill in the blanks]," she would say ... Well: I felt for her, although I'm not sure I understand from the inside yet why Mum's so obviously different standards should have caused her such pain. I still wonder about this.

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Me, I'm fed with with the idea that moms are beyond reproach.

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I don't think that's quite what I'm saying, Audra. More like, there comes a time when there is no more point to reproach. When you're in your 30s and have kids and a life of your own, it's time to give it up and move on. To continue a head to head combat beyond your 20s is such a waste of energy.

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Any one of them, including Mum, can still drive me nuts!!! Like no one else on earth. And at least some of the time, they won't even notice or understand which of my buttons just got pushed -- I know that, I know that, but I still go nuts.

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Absolutely. There is nobody on earth who can make me as nuts as my mother. She does things and expresses opinions (most of which are none of her business) that make me rave for hours in the safety of my own space to my everlovin' spouse, best girlfriend, etc. And it will ever be thus.

I figured out pretty early on my mother was a froot loop. She's a chronic depressive, and that was very difficult to grow up with. My father was my role model, and while Dad and I had some spectacular fights, I could say anything to him and not have it held against me later. Not so with my mother. But because I was so much like my dad, there's always been a basic inability between my mother and I to comprehend just why it is the other does what they do.

I once described my relationship with my mother as two cats standing on a fence, simultaneously sizing each other up and staring each other down. I don't think we'll ever truly understand each other, but we find a way to coexist. I have to admit, she's a good grandmother, and that's worth more than you can imagine.

So if not to mothers, here's to grandmas!

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

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When you're in your 30s and have kids and a life of your own, it's time to give it up and move on.

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I'd say if you are still dealing with mother conflict in your 80's you may as well deal with it. Our adult lives are basically the process of differentiating from our parents/families and beginning our own. There is no proper time to give up on the conflict. Some of us are just beginning to deal with it in our thirties.

It's how one deals with the conflict and what we learn from it that really matters.

My children have quoted to me things that I said and I don't remember them at all. What is important to them obviously wasn't to me. I am not talking about abuse, just conflict.

I never discussed anything with my mother and I am quite sure she would not have understood a thing.

Anyhow I tried not to make the same mistakes but inspite of that lofty wish I did repeat a few things that I regret.

I grew up with terrible abuse, not by my mother, but by my older brother, who was disturbed and terribly violent. My mother always said I had to know how to "manage" him or "handle" him, and minimised the horrors he put me through. Turns out her own father was very violent too.

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so as not to repest.

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`loved the typo clersal

I was raised by my grandmother as my "mother", so my natural mother had plenty of opportunity to be abusive.

When I told her that her husband was sexually abusing me she slapped me and told me I was a liar.

After he had abused all her other girls and one of them told her she grudingly believed what I had said and yet a couple of years later she sent all the kids to live with this man knowing he was a pedophile.

I haven't spoken to her in a number of years, she is too toxic to maintain a relationship with.

Still I have come to recognize that the selfish and short sighted view with which she entertains life is what is responsible for her behaviours which end up hurting even her.

She has a number of children who want nothing to do with her, she lives with an abusive alcholic who even expects her to sugar and stir his tea.

She blames me for alot of her life and yet sees no blame for the choices she made in getting pregnant.

I don't think she deserves a "by" for anything but I do feel sorry for her and I do thank her for giving me life.

I accept her for who she is, more or less, and understand how the combination of her personality and impoverished upbringing made her toxic. And while I cannot forgive her for some of her more appalling betrayals (and I don't need to), I no longer hate her, having years ago decided my energy is needed elsewhere. I have no need to resurrect childhood horrors or emotional baggage, as I long ago told her what I thought of her mothering skills and their impact on my life. She gave me life, some basic domestic skills, and an interest in books and politics (as did my father) and I have thanked her for these. This is not to say that her compulsion towards manipulation and the infliction of cruelty and pain don't faze me. They still do. But I'm able to feel sad for someone whose motivations can be so venomous, whose life has been coloured by bitter vindictiveness.

They are dead now and I never did forgive them. I sort of understand why they were the way they were, extremely selfish. Different generation? Lousy excuse. I knew parents who really enjoyed their kids and their house was a fun place to visit.

I think a lot of abuse was gotten away with as kids were scared and when they did report it they were not believed. Somethings don't change.

Er, let me rephrase that - Do crappy parents begat feminists, or do most feminists perceive their parents as crappy.

Is it the chicken or the egg?

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Rapunzel ]

It wasn't my conflict with my mother that made me a feminist -- it was the coping mechanisms and strength of character I learned from my father that sent me down that road.

One thing that seems to be inferred from my previous posts is that we should forgive parents who are not good parents -- I should have been more clear that this was not what I meant. Some things are not forgivable. In my own case, I think my mother's refusal to properly treat her depression when I was a child (because she felt dealing with her baggage was "too painful") is something I may always resent. My, and my sister's, needs were neglected because of it. It sometimes made her abusive and frightening. The situation shaped me in ways that were not always healthy.

But now, at this late date, confronting her on it will change nothing. And it's really the idea of confronting your parent as an adult that I have a problem with. As an adult, you have the ability to walk away if you need to. There's no need to punish, it's not likely to make any difference anyway. If they've been rotten parents, their own baggage is probably making them more miserable than you ever could.

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If you had read the posts Rapunzel you would not have posted such an inane remark.

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Read all the posts here. All are testimonials to the sadly dysfunctional relationships y'all have with your parents. Never once is the word love mentioned.

You are all feminists and you all have almost entirely negative things to say about your parents. Sometimes such feelings can be caused by resentment. Some women resent the fact that their mother was merely a homemaker whereas they, as feminists, would never dream of lowering themselves so. Thus, they see their mother as less than them.

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Rapunzel ]

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All are testimonials to the sadly dysfunctional relationships y'all have with your parents. Never once is the word love mentioned.

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I must confess that sounds a bit Thatcherite. Nothing to do with whining about family problems or even specifically about women. But many groups, including women, have been the victims of hundreds or thousands of years of systemic discrimination and denial of human rights. Look at an idiot like Bush - he can become President of the US just because he is a mummy's and daddy's boy, a rich WASP, even though he has no great brain nor was he a hard worker... There is no way a Black, female, or working-class person has the same advantages. It is not a question of sitting back and depending on mommy state but on exercising our power as citizens to force government and other powers-that-be to carry out measures to even out the playing field and provide a modicum of social justice and security. This is a forum for progressive people, after all, however that is defined...

So how do they use their new found power and influence - why they quickly develop disdain for their parents and detachment from fetuses growing inside them.

So many voices inside their heads screaming for separtion from one, and termination of the other.

All I can say is thank god this didn't happen sooner. Who knows where we'd be now as a society.

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Rapunzel ]

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: andrean ]

Anyone have a good hockey-game watching munchie recipe I can use tonight? I was thinking nachos, but that's boring... wings? Hmmm.

If mother conflict is approached from that point of view as opposed to a literal interpretation of "I'm right, she's wrong" we stand to learn a lot from it. Regardless of who is right or wrong.

My mother lives about 4000km away, so I suppose it's easier for me to view our relationship more philisophicly.

But, since this is a thread on mother conflict, rather than mother love-in, I suppose that aspect of mother relationships hasn't been discussed much.

Both my parents made mistakes. Some big, some small. I still love my mother, with all her flaws. She has her good side, she's a good grandmother (I actually think I noted that), and she's also highly intelligent and when the chips are down, she'll try to help (if in her own inimitable and somewhat critical fashion).

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I do not want to be given equality - why should I step down from my pedestal?

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Well, on that score, I'd have to agree with Gloria Steinem: "A pedestal is as much a prison as any small space." I'd find a pedestal limiting. I'll take equality, with both edges of the sword, thanks.

And who says being feminist means you can't choose to live in a traditional role? The way I see it, freedom means being able to choose traditional or non-traditional roles and careers, and feminism means having the freedom to choose whatever combination works for you.

Oldmom, I don't want to bait anyone. However, socialised services such as governement-funded (and supervised, in terms of competence and trustworthiness of staff) daycare and other measures to help women and families, were not only a feature of the now-defunct authoritarian communist regimes. All Western European nations have such measures, and to a certain extend we do in Canada too, though they are under threat. They have done a lot to lift women out of poverty. Among mothers whose marriages have broken up, far fewer have fallen into poverty in Sweden or France than in Canada - which in turn has a lower rate of poverty among single-parent families (usually, but not always women-led) than in the US.

When I brought up my a kids, a long, long time ago. I stayed home. It was expected of a woman. I rebelled, got a job, quit the job as I had too bloody much work. Yes the now ex other half who got home two hours before I did, did fuck all.

Life goes on, kids grow up, conflicts happen, they iron out and we make do with what we have.

Do I have a conflict with my daughter? Not exactly. There are a lot of things she does I don't like and there are a lot of things that I do that she doesn't like. She is not my best friend but I don't play mother either. I think it is her life style that I don't like. This is none of my business anyhow.

My daughter in-law stays home to raise her family and not because my son would give her a hard time. She thinks it is important.

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it seems that there is a wee bit of hostility weaving through this thread

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What worked for me was recognizing that they were shitty parents. Because they got sick and died does not make them better parents. I'm partially aware of why they were like they were. If I go in that direction I would have to examine Grandmothers, fathers ad nauseam. Fuck it. It seems that it is not that unusual to have had a dysfunctional family.

We all, have different ways of dealing. If it works, use it.

I don't know if it is just me. Perhaps this is a generalization without foundation. We seem sometimes to be in competition with each other.

I don't know whether I am a feminist or not. I'm not even sure if I know what a feminist is.

There are a lot of commonsense things. They don't have a gender. I don't know, I feel that we become very critical of certain 'attributed' chores that are traditionally carried out by the
fairest sex. Housekeeping, cooking etc. It's changing slowly but it is changing. I know a lot of men today that are more than capable of keeping a house. That work is shared. In my day it was my job. Period.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: clersal ]

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Anyway, i was thinking of ordinary mothers, who gave us a hard time about being fat while loading our plates, or told us to be polite and pleasant, while being nasty and critical, or told us we were good girls when we were merely frightened and confused.

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Sounds like very little has changed on that score from your generation to mine, Nonesuch...

Let's face it, mothers are mothers, parents are parents... They have expectations of us, and sometimes we live up to them and sometimes we don't. Then we grow up and form expectations for our own children. And so the conflict of "part of you"/"separate from you" continues on.

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Wow, Rebecca, I guess telling someone to perform a sex act as they depart is not inflamatory? I do not like being called a feminist because I have conflicts with my mother. I had the same ones with my dad - so I'm a ?????

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You seem to have a pretty broad definition of what constitutes an attack. Thanks for the warning.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

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Yeah, but it's the only life we have (probably) and we must find ways to avoid wasting too much of it on excess baggage.

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I concur absolutely! But for those who insist on wasting their time, well, that's their choice. I guess what I've been suggesting from the start is putting down some of the baggage, because pointless external conflict will only make it heavier. Or so I've found.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: clersal ]

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: clersal ]