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Topic: France resists gay marriage
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swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659
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posted 13 June 2004 02:38 PM
quote: "You'll find all kinds of people who invoke the traditions of the Republic," says sociology professor Eric Fassin, who has argued in public debates in favour of gay marriage. "But often it's not an explanation — it's a justification." Fassin says the gay-marriage debate in France has been marked by a "conservatism of the left" that uses the left's rhetoric to traditionalist ends.
Ici.
From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002
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Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795
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posted 13 June 2004 03:01 PM
quote:
France Moves To Split Gay Newlyweds (Bordeaux, France) The federal prosecutor in Bordeaux went to court Friday to get the country's first gay marriage declared illegal. The chief judge said he would soon fix a date to hear the matter, and that he would order the newlyweds to appear before him. Bertrand Charpentier and Stephane Chapin were married last Saturday in a ceremony performed by the mayor of Begles a suburb of Bordeaux. story Charpentier and Chapin have vowed that if their marriage is voided by a French court they will go to the European Court of Human Rights. France allows civil unions for same-sex couples but does not permit marriage and denies gay couples the right to adopt children. Begles mayor Noel Mamere, who is also a Green member of Parliament told Charpentier and Chapin, "Your marriage is a first, and I hope it will become something normal," said Mamere, who is also Green member of parliament. The government threatened to remove Mamere from office then decided just to issue a reprimand. On Monday, Mamere tabled draft legislation in Parliament to give same-sex couples the right to marry. President Jacques Chirac and his government have vowed not to let the bill proceed to a vote.
source [ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 13 June 2004 10:09 PM
I thought perhaps Tibet? There is no question but that Chirac is a Machiavellian old pol who'd make any deal with the devil, but the most serious harm caused by post-colonial French policies has been in Africa, especially sub-Saharan West and West Central Africa. Identity politics has never taken the hold in francophone countries that it has in anglo-saxon (skdadl - I know that is a misnomer - perhaps English-speaking would be more accurate?) ones. Not even in Québec. Our strong women's movement has always been more tied to trade unionism and community groups and the fight for equality and social justice. There is no question about why the French right, although except for certain elements of the far right it isn't religious or especially concerned with personal morality or "politics in the bedroom", would be against gay marriage - for those traditionalists, although most are far more "personally" accepting of gays than their English-speaking counterparts would have been a generation or two ago, marriage is about building families, forging alliances - not especially about love per se. What is more problematic is why the LEFT, even the far left, sees this as a minor and unimportant issue. And I'm thinking about a friend of mine who has been a gay activist for decades, as well as a trade unionist and anti-racist militant. It is a question that gains in importance with the globalisation of life - it is still a lot easier for married couples than PACSed ones to sponsor a partner from a country outside the EU. I'm sure any of the leftists I've mentioned and a fair number among the "democratic" right would see that as grossly unfair.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 14 June 2004 10:14 AM
I don't have lagatta's experience with the continental left, but I wish to complicate this discussion a little anyway.In my experience, the European left/s have not had to grapple with a coherent critique of cultural essentialism as soon or as practically as North Americans have. (I recognize the irony: the philosophical deconstruction of essentialism began with European thinkers, and all praise to them. But it has been ordinary citizens who have learned, over the last generation or so, to start living out the implications of that critique in their everyday lives in North America.) As an example of what I mean: most lefties here have long grasped the logic of some version or other of affirmative action. If members of a distinct group have long suffered disadvantage simply for being members of that group, then we all know that just changing the laws to make us all "equal" is not going to change those persons' lives tomorrow morning. The French in particular take refuge in doctrines like "militant secularism" to duck the very real problems both of oppressed minorities and of French essentialism. Think of the white guys here who now complain that affirmative action for women and visible minorities is discrimination against them. Their argument is that, if we are all equal now, then women and visible minorities should have to compete with them on an equal footing. That argument is individualist and rationalist, and denies the reality of oppression by class, ethnicity/race, sex, and sexual orientation. To me, "militant secularism" is that kind of doctrine -- rationalist and individualist. It is being used as a rationalization by those who wish to discriminate against anyone who isn't really, you know -- *nudge nudge wink wink* -- French. The European left has allowed itself the luxury of treating issues of discrimination as discrete issues for far too long. Say what we will about the U.S. and the horrors there still of racial oppression, I still believe that it is true that the American struggle for civil rights forced a lot of Americans and Canadians both to start connecting the dots about all kinds of oppression and discrimination. I think that Europeans were sheltered because, until a generation or so ago, they continued to enjoy their own cultural particularities without challenge and without reflection. Few love France for being French more than I ... but there is a self-critique yet to be done there. [ 14 June 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795
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posted 17 June 2004 11:15 AM
"Gay Marriage Mayor" suspended from office (Paris) The mayor of a small village near Bordeaux was suspended from office Tuesday for one month after performing a wedding ceremony for a gay couple.
Noel Mamere, the mayor of Begles and a leading member of the Green Party in the French Parliament, was informed this morning that he was not permitted inside the town hall for 30 days, could make no legal decisions involving the town, or in any way participate in the political life of Begles. The decision to suspend Mamere was made by Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin and was based on a law allowing the suspension of mayors who "gravely misunderstand their duties". Mayors in France conduct civil marriages, the only ones with legal standing. However, they do so under the authority of the state prosecutor. "The mayor of Begles was, therefore, required to respect the instructions addressed to him by the prosecutor" - to call the marriage off, de Villepin said in a statement. "When he exercises the functions of officer of the civil state, the mayor acts in the name of the state and not of the town," the statement said. In addition, Mamere faces a fine of up to nearly $2,000 and could still be removed from office permanently. The French government is continuing to investigate his role in solemnizing the marriage. During the ceremony he wore the blue, white and red sash of the French Republic. Bertrand Charpentier and Stephane Chapin were married by Mamere June 5 in the town hall as television cameras recorded the event. (story) Prosecutor Bertrand de Loze has since moved ahead to get the marriage annulled. (story) Charpentier and Chapin have vowed that if their marriage is voided they will go to the European Court of Human Rights. ************** Egalité, liberte, fraternity... what a JOKE! [ 17 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003
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NDP Newbie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5089
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posted 19 June 2004 08:24 PM
quote: Originally posted by Hephaestion: Please go here to see my opinion of the Mayor of San Francisco.
I bitched so much about this guy on DU. I was for Gonzalez all the way in that election (surprisingly most of DU felt the same way), and I still think he would have been a better mayor than Newsom. Still, I changed my opinion of Gavin really quickly. Incidentally, my opinion of Chirac regarding this issue is so graphically repugnant that posting it would get me banned from this form. (It involves a French flag and a posterior.)
From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004
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