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Author Topic: France resists gay marriage
swallow
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posted 13 June 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"You'll find all kinds of people who invoke the traditions of the Republic," says sociology professor Eric Fassin, who has argued in public debates in favour of gay marriage.

"But often it's not an explanation — it's a justification."

Fassin says the gay-marriage debate in France has been marked by a "conservatism of the left" that uses the left's rhetoric to traditionalist ends.


Ici.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 June 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

France Moves To Split Gay Newlyweds

(Bordeaux, France) The federal prosecutor in Bordeaux went to court Friday to get the country's first gay marriage declared illegal.

The chief judge said he would soon fix a date to hear the matter, and that he would order the newlyweds to appear before him.

Bertrand Charpentier and Stephane Chapin were married last Saturday in a ceremony performed by the mayor of Begles a suburb of Bordeaux.
story

Charpentier and Chapin have vowed that if their marriage is voided by a French court they will go to the European Court of Human Rights.

France allows civil unions for same-sex couples but does not permit marriage and denies gay couples the right to adopt children.

Begles mayor Noel Mamere, who is also a Green member of Parliament told Charpentier and Chapin, "Your marriage is a first, and I hope it will become something normal," said Mamere, who is also Green member of parliament.

The government threatened to remove Mamere from office then decided just to issue a reprimand.

On Monday, Mamere tabled draft legislation in Parliament to give same-sex couples the right to marry. President Jacques Chirac and his government have vowed not to let the bill proceed to a vote.


source

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 13 June 2004 08:20 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Chirac: Against Asian democracy, homophobic, against freedom of religious expression, loved by the North American left...

Fuck I hate the bastard.

Unlike the French people, he didn't even have a good reason for staying out of Iraq.


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 13 June 2004 08:39 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have no fondness for the slimy and sleazy old pol either, but what on earth are you talking about with respect to Asian democracy and religious expression? Chirac's main wrongs involve Africa, not Asia. He's fairly old but I don't believe he is old enough to have been a major player in French Indochina.

Militant secularism is one of the things I find most admirable about French republicanism.

I've been pondering the articles about why even the left is lukewarm on the question of gay marriage in France (after the PACs or civil union - applicable to both straight and gay couples). None of my friends, though very militant about fighting homophobia and gay-bashing (whether straight or gay) see it as a major priority. I'm sure as the Star article said it has a lot to do with the persistent "dynastic" attitude towards marriage.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dr. Mr. Ben
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posted 13 June 2004 09:58 PM      Profile for Dr. Mr. Ben   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've heard that the -- is identity politics the term I want? strand of feminism didn't take hold in France the same way that it did in Anglophone circles. If there is an attitude among many in France that civil unions is good enough, I wonder if this is related to that? Could someone more familiar with these debates as they take place in France fill in some of that detail?

Lagatta, I assume that if NDP Newbie is talking about Asian democracy it must be related to something Chirac has done/said/not done/not said about Taiwan.


From: Mechaslovakia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 13 June 2004 10:09 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought perhaps Tibet? There is no question but that Chirac is a Machiavellian old pol who'd make any deal with the devil, but the most serious harm caused by post-colonial French policies has been in Africa, especially sub-Saharan West and West Central Africa.

Identity politics has never taken the hold in francophone countries that it has in anglo-saxon (skdadl - I know that is a misnomer - perhaps English-speaking would be more accurate?) ones. Not even in Québec. Our strong women's movement has always been more tied to trade unionism and community groups and the fight for equality and social justice.

There is no question about why the French right, although except for certain elements of the far right it isn't religious or especially concerned with personal morality or "politics in the bedroom", would be against gay marriage - for those traditionalists, although most are far more "personally" accepting of gays than their English-speaking counterparts would have been a generation or two ago, marriage is about building families, forging alliances - not especially about love per se.

What is more problematic is why the LEFT, even the far left, sees this as a minor and unimportant issue. And I'm thinking about a friend of mine who has been a gay activist for decades, as well as a trade unionist and anti-racist militant.

It is a question that gains in importance with the globalisation of life - it is still a lot easier for married couples than PACSed ones to sponsor a partner from a country outside the EU. I'm sure any of the leftists I've mentioned and a fair number among the "democratic" right would see that as grossly unfair.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 13 June 2004 10:47 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When issues pertaining to Taiwan or Tibet come up, Chirac fellates China on a regular basis.

3 of our 4 represented parties here in Canada (NDP, Bloc, Conservative) have consistently defended Taiwan's right to participate in the international community. Occasionally, even some Fiberals are smart enough to get on board.

Additionally, Bill Blaikie has condemnded China's willingness to take Taiwan by force on a regular basis. (Stockwell Day also openly feels the same way, but I suspect it's only because Focus on the Family can legally operate in Taiwan, but not in China.)


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 June 2004 12:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
loved by the North American left...

Huh?

Could you explain this one, please? Sure, he kept France out of Iraq, but that isn't any more than Jean Chrétien did here, we don't love the Shawinigan Strangler.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 14 June 2004 12:34 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Besides, Chirac was President when France briefly resumed Pacific nuclear testing in 1995 or something. Loved by the left? By no manner of means.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 14 June 2004 09:45 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vive la résistance!

Oh, no. Wait. Wrong message...

À bas la République!


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 14 June 2004 10:14 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't have lagatta's experience with the continental left, but I wish to complicate this discussion a little anyway.

In my experience, the European left/s have not had to grapple with a coherent critique of cultural essentialism as soon or as practically as North Americans have. (I recognize the irony: the philosophical deconstruction of essentialism began with European thinkers, and all praise to them. But it has been ordinary citizens who have learned, over the last generation or so, to start living out the implications of that critique in their everyday lives in North America.)

As an example of what I mean: most lefties here have long grasped the logic of some version or other of affirmative action. If members of a distinct group have long suffered disadvantage simply for being members of that group, then we all know that just changing the laws to make us all "equal" is not going to change those persons' lives tomorrow morning.

The French in particular take refuge in doctrines like "militant secularism" to duck the very real problems both of oppressed minorities and of French essentialism. Think of the white guys here who now complain that affirmative action for women and visible minorities is discrimination against them. Their argument is that, if we are all equal now, then women and visible minorities should have to compete with them on an equal footing. That argument is individualist and rationalist, and denies the reality of oppression by class, ethnicity/race, sex, and sexual orientation. To me, "militant secularism" is that kind of doctrine -- rationalist and individualist. It is being used as a rationalization by those who wish to discriminate against anyone who isn't really, you know -- *nudge nudge wink wink* -- French.

The European left has allowed itself the luxury of treating issues of discrimination as discrete issues for far too long. Say what we will about the U.S. and the horrors there still of racial oppression, I still believe that it is true that the American struggle for civil rights forced a lot of Americans and Canadians both to start connecting the dots about all kinds of oppression and discrimination.

I think that Europeans were sheltered because, until a generation or so ago, they continued to enjoy their own cultural particularities without challenge and without reflection. Few love France for being French more than I ... but there is a self-critique yet to be done there.

[ 14 June 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 14 June 2004 02:46 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I remember some years back Edith Cresson, then the Prime Minister of France, saying that homosexuality was not a French thing, but that one quarter of Englishmen were gay and the Germans suffered from it too.

Is it possible that some of the resistance to gay marriage in France is related to fears of France becoming more like the countries percived as being "gayer" or at least more consumed with the gay marriage debate -- Britain, Germany, and worst of all in French eyes, America?


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 17 June 2004 11:15 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Gay Marriage Mayor" suspended from office


(Paris) The mayor of a small village near Bordeaux was suspended from office Tuesday for one month after performing a wedding ceremony for a gay couple.

Noel Mamere, the mayor of Begles and a leading member of the Green Party in the French Parliament, was informed this morning that he was not permitted inside the town hall for 30 days, could make no legal decisions involving the town, or in any way participate in the political life of Begles.

The decision to suspend Mamere was made by Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin and was based on a law allowing the suspension of mayors who "gravely misunderstand their duties".

Mayors in France conduct civil marriages, the only ones with legal standing. However, they do so under the authority of the state prosecutor.

"The mayor of Begles was, therefore, required to respect the instructions addressed to him by the prosecutor" - to call the marriage off, de Villepin said in a statement.

"When he exercises the functions of officer of the civil state, the mayor acts in the name of the state and not of the town," the statement said.

In addition, Mamere faces a fine of up to nearly $2,000 and could still be removed from office permanently. The French government is continuing to investigate his role in solemnizing the marriage. During the ceremony he wore the blue, white and red sash of the French Republic.

Bertrand Charpentier and Stephane Chapin were married by Mamere June 5 in the town hall as television cameras recorded the event. (story)

Prosecutor Bertrand de Loze has since moved ahead to get the marriage annulled. (story)

Charpentier and Chapin have vowed that if their marriage is voided they will go to the European Court of Human Rights.

**************

Egalité, liberte, fraternity... what a JOKE!

[ 17 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 17 June 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So French action on this issue has been harsher than that of the US. The Mayor of San Francisco is still in office, after all. Just how strong is this authoritarian streak in French Republicanism?
From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 17 June 2004 10:29 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Please go here to see my opinion of the Mayor of San Francisco.
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 19 June 2004 08:24 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Please go here to see my opinion of the Mayor of San Francisco.

I bitched so much about this guy on DU. I was for Gonzalez all the way in that election (surprisingly most of DU felt the same way), and I still think he would have been a better mayor than Newsom.

Still, I changed my opinion of Gavin really quickly.

Incidentally, my opinion of Chirac regarding this issue is so graphically repugnant that posting it would get me banned from this form. (It involves a French flag and a posterior.)


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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