However, since so far the only responses there appear to be arrogant dismissive static, I thought I would post it here:

A group of us are trying to help workers in medium sized warehousing, food processing and distribution service to organize a union and get recognition from the boss.

The workers are from a variety of ethnic backgrounds (Italian, German, East Indian, Croatian, Chinese, Ukrainian, Vietnamese and Portuguese--Chinese right now is the largest, but it changes from time to time), vary in age from 19 to 62 (main age is around 45), and there's about a 70-30 ratio of men to women. "Language barrier" is an under-statement. We have made in-roads with the various languages, but there are so many to deal with, it's hard to get people to communicate beyond a very limited level.

I have helped work on organizing drives among various ethnic communities and cultures before. But this one is especially tough, since there a far greater degree of mis-trust and prejudicial sentiment among large numbers of people.

Certain individuals within each group are pro-union and very much into it. Others are very frightened or hostile.

Worst yet certain groups are clearly much more pro-union than others (those whose culture is much more union-friendly overall), which are much more conservative and loyal to the boss, despite the fact that most of them have outstanding issues. We know a few are outright acting as stoolies for the boss, although no one is sure who they are--and that's fuelling general resentment.

That is creating a lot of resentment along ethnic lines, as those who want to organize see the others as "happy coolies" who won't stand up for their rights and are impeding others from doing so.

It's especially tough on those who are in the ethnic groups where organizing doesn't have majority support.

Despite our efforts at education, getting people to meet and talk about their common concerns and interests (which have mostly gone well), there is still an overwhelming feeling of bigotry, mis-trust, fear and resentment, seemingly among most of the ethnic groups.

We could try for a certification vote with the support we got now. But I think it won't be enough--and a bunch of people are due to be laid off soon.

quote:

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Originally posted by Klingon:
However, since so far the only responses there appear to be arrogant dismissive static, I thought I would post it here:

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Ha! Can't handle anti-racist thought in the anti-racism forum, so you take your topic to the labour and consumption forum in order to avoid it? I guess that'll work. "How do I get these non-white people from other cultures and other racialized groups to do what I think is best without addressing all that stupid divisive racism stuff that they seem to think is so important?"

We wouldn't want to have any anti-racist thought in the labour movement, after all! Well, have fun! I'll try not to interrupt your paternalism again after this post.

[ 22 November 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

One of the best ways to build unity is to take on the one or two top issues people have and that management has been the absolutely worst on. Layoffs? Sick days? Particularly nasty supervisors or other managers?

Which one or two issues are uppermost in peoples minds? These are the issues to build on, rather than try to negotiate a zillion different fears or confusions.

Edited to add: Please be careul about details of your replies. None of us want to see people laid off due to company anti-unionism or that your drive fail. Good luck. Unionizing almost anywhere these days is a tough go, and with a workplace as diverse as yours it is especially hard. Keep trying.

[ 22 November 2004: Message edited by: BLAKE 3:16 ]

Let's see. On the one hand, you contemptuously dismissed the views of people in the "white privilege" thread without even seeming to try to understand them.

On the other hand, you're having trouble connecting with "ethnic" (your word) workers in your organizing drive.

quote:

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K'pla! I originally posted this appeal for suggestions on a particularly difficult organizing situation on the Anti-racist forum.

However, since so far the only responses there appear to be arrogant dismissive static, I thought I would post it here:

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Further, the question as posed is inseperable from the question of what your anti-racist politics are.

OK, OK, Seems I am continuously being challenged by some ignorant whacks because I don't buy into their narrow shortsighted, and largely unrealistic and insulting, approaches to anti-racism.

I have worked on many anti-racist and human rights campaigns via the labour and cooperative movement for over 25 years. I was raised in a very multi-cultural community and learned to respect all ethnic cultures and learn from their diversity.

So, because I don't bow down to silly intellectual terms like "white privilege," here's what I get from the preachers:

quote:

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Ha! Can't handle anti-racist thought in the anti-racism forum, so you take your topic to the labour and consumption forum in order to avoid it? I guess that'll work. "How do I get these non-white people from other cultures and other racialized groups to do what I think is best without addressing all that stupid divisive racism stuff that they seem to think is so important?"

We wouldn't want to have any anti-racist thought in the labour movement, after all! Well, have fun! I'll try not to interrupt your paternalism again after this post.

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What a stupid brain-damaged thing to say. Try re-reading my post, only this pay attention.

Here's another winner:

quote:

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Let's see. On the one hand, you contemptuously dismissed the views of people in the "white privilege" thread without even seeming to try to understand them.

On the other hand, you're having trouble connecting with "ethnic" (your word) workers in your organizing drive.

If you have the same listening skills, openness to new ideas, and respect for their views that you showed in the "white privilege" thread, do you think there MIGHT be a connection between those two facts?

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I don't know these two people who posted these insults or what their backgrounds are. But clearly they have failed to understand anything about me or the post I made. Maybe I haven't explained myself well enough.

But my experience in the past with people who hold these kinds of attitudes are those arm-chair activists who like to talk about high minded ideals and sit in judgment while refusing to get their hands dirty actually trying to apply those ideals by working with others, especially us "low lifes" who don't share their terminology or guilty liberal sentiments.

I posted that request about the organizing drive because despite my experiences in working with people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds, this particular one is especially complicated, confusing and tense. I have not faced anything quite this tough before. Despite any disagreements with different people on differ3ent things, most folks on this list appear to be of good conscience and I respect them enough to ask for their perspective or call on any experience they may have with this type of situation.

I hate to offend anyone's sense of importance, but, for me, this is more important than any theoretical of political discussion I might engage in here, as the outcome of this affect a lot of people.

It's a very weird situation, since the union some of the workers joined isn't actually mine. But I was called in to help out because I do have experience working in an ethnically diverse environment with working people. I speak a couple of the languages as well and am part of one of the more prominent ethnic groups in the workplace (I guess you wouldn't believe there are Klingons working there).

We have printed leaflets in all of the languages there. I have had to do some of this at my own expense, because the local is almost as broke as the workers in the plant. I have had some friends do the translations and picked up the printing costs for now. Hopefully, I will get re-embossed.

The problem is actually getting the various people to sit down and talk to each other about the issues. It's more than just a language barrier. It's also the fact that there is a lot of bad blood and mis-trust between people.

I have spent a lot of time trying to get folks to see beyond their racial bigotry and actually get them to focus on their common interests, witch is what they all seem to understand at an intellectual level is the most important thing.

There is so much of this between so many different people, it’s hard to even keep track of. Are there any experiences you or others have on dealing with this?

What's giving me the most stress right now is there a very limited time frame here, and the boss has got wind of the drive. We learned from one person that a manager told her that if she joined the union, the top bosses (not him of course) would fire her and she could lose her landed immigrant status. Even though this is BS, and she thought it is unlikely, she has still been very upset by it.

quote:

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What a stupid brain-damaged thing to say.

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Did I say I'd leave you to your paternalism? Well, I will in so far as not gracing your non-argument with an actual response beyond telling you to blow me, you ignorant prick.

quote:

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If you just want to post slander and insults because I don't follow some narrow political correctness code, then, with due respect, fuck off and don't respond to this post.

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And I repeat - blow me, you ignorant prick.

[ 22 November 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

[ 22 November 2004: Message edited by: BLAKE 3:16 ]

Are there two issues that a majority of workers could agree on?

I don't know how much Christmas is a deal -- could a "We want toys for our kids" appraoch work? That one seems to trump a lot of other divisions.

Besides ethnicity, what are the bases of mistrust? Sometimes if things are really are really poisoned, it's kind of impossible to do much.

As to this:

quote:

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Blow me, you ignorant prick

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Being an ignorant prick to a self-righteous condescending bigot like you is the least you deserve. As for the service you requested, you'll have to double over and do it yourself. In other words, in words you made famous here recently, you'll have to go fuck yourself.

I don't want to get into too much detail (for obvious reasons), but here is a post I made on the Anti-racism string in response to a could suggestions there. It's an update and a bit of background. Any comments would be appreciated.

I appreciate you efforts and support. You obviously get it when it comes to racism in way that some others here clearly don't.

We have been trying some of what you suggested by getting people to meet in non-threatening neutral places--and it seems slowly to be working.

We had a very inspiring meeting today with people who, after refusing to talk to one another, actually got together and started discussing mutual concerns and some strategies.

The main issues are discrimination in promotions, denying people severance and of course lousy wages and poor safety. Most folks seem OK with the marginal benefit plan for now, although everyone agrees it’s grossly inadequate.

One source of resentment between people is that those that happen to be of the same ethnic group as the boss are getting promotions over others. After checking this out it looks like it's true. But I also learned that only those who tacitly agree to work overtime for free or come in on the weekends for straight time actually get the better jobs.

When this info got out the rest of the crew, it seemed to diffuse the anger away from a racial nature and more toward favouratism and "suck-holing" as one person put it.

The woman that had been threatened with losing her landed status by the manager has apparently recovered from the shock and signed a union card and will now talk to her friends-co-workers about doing the same.

Still three people, two who had already joined, said they would be quitting by the end of the week.

The company is on dicey ground--not because it isn't making money (because it is and has very good service contracts), but because the bosses have used it as collateral to finance real estate purchases.

There is a big lay-off coming at the end of the year, and we already know it won't be by seniority. Besides the firm could shut down altogether and everyone will be on the street.

It's still hard to get people to start to trust each other, even though most realize what's going on and what's at stake. This is a tough one, and it's getting to me.

You are very vague about the white -non-white dynamics and that is unfortunate, because they do matter. You can pretend that we are all just a monolithic group of workers- but if you study the history of workers of colour and unions in this country and actually create a safe environment where people of colour will be honest with you about the racism they continue to experience- you may learn that these groups are more vulnerable and economically disadvantaged.

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You know, some people are dismissive of utilizing an anti-racist analysis- but just saying out loud that race doesn't matter doesn't make it go away. What if these issues had been addressed and worked out prior to organizing a union.

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Who says there is no anti-racist analysis here? I got asked to get involved in this organizing drive just recently, well after it started, and the first thing I noticed, and tried to address, was the incredible racists divisions and alienation mist-trust between the people there.

The problem you don't seem to see is that what you and some others here consider an "anti-racist analysis" is in fact very racist, condescending and dismissive to the average working class person, regardless of ethnicity.

Stripping people of their cultural and ethnic heritage and lumping them into nameless faceless groups, like "white" or "people of colour" (especially when a vast majority of people out there, I find, don't want this and don't relate to it), I find to be de-humanizing, disrespectful and, in worst cases, outright oppressive.

Whether you like it or not, the fact is people, to one degree or another, draw strength and confidence from their ethnic heritage, since it clearly help them define who they are in the world.

That doesn't mean they necessarily are chauvinistic or racist (e.g.: "my ethnicity is better then yours" crap). But it is something people in general, especially if they are immigrants here, hold near and dear to their hearts.

That's why there is no one I have ever met, other than a small group of people in various "left" tendencies, who identify with being "people of colour." The same is true for "white." The assumption here (and I do not feel comfortable making these types of assumptions) is "white" is supposed to mean Caucasian. Other than many Canadian-born Anglo-Saxons, the term "white" isn't even considered relevant to most Caucasian ethnicities.

The same is true for "white privilege" since it seems much of what you people consider "privilege" are in fact hard-won rights and living standards for working people that everyone should enjoy--and the fact that most people don't, for one reason or another, is the injustice--not that some folks in the world have been more successful at winning them than others (and therefore somehow shouldn't have them).

This type of analysis you hold so dear has in fact shown itself to be quite disastrous when organizing both in various communities and in workplaces.

Funny enough, I just got back from an early morning meeting with some of the workers there. I thought I would, just for fun, ask a couple of them what they thought of being classified as "people of colour." Two of the people were familiar with the term and thought it was hilarious and not in a complimentary way. A third didn't know the term and asked if it was an insult (she certainly took it that way).

The fact is if you're not interested in over-powering racism and alienation between people by pointing out and promoting the basic common economic and democratic interests of all working people, regardless of ethnicity, then you can forget ever fighter racism.

What a joke it would be if I was to approach a group of workers or community members facing a difficult, frightening and even humiliating situations and say "yer white and yer privileged and the rest of yaz is all people of colour." If a was lucky, I would just get laughed out of the place. If not, I might go home with a few bruises.

quote:

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Don't you need some level of genuine, honest interaction with the communities of colour in order to unionize this workplace. I have to tell you, if your approach at your workplace is anything like the hostility you display here to issues that really matter to people of colour, you may not be very successful.

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See, this is what really starts to piss me off. Buddy, you don't have a clue what you’re talking about.

Making inroads and building solidarity within ethnic groups is something I have tried to do for over 20 years (with some good success, I don't mind saying). There are several good contacts with progressive folks in various communities that I have and use, including some personal friends.

What's frustrating for me is I was called in to help with this drive at the last minute and it's been so difficult to get things going on such a short time line.

The biggest obstacle here isn't some people's leeriness to join the union or that some folks' cultures are not as familiar with unionization as others. You run into that stuff all the time, and they can be overcome.

Rather, the big depressing and annoying stumbling block has been the huge amount of hostility and mis-trust between the workers, much of it along racial lines. Until recently, it was almost impossible to get different groups of people to actually talk to one another about their common concerns.

Now pal, just what the fuck makes you think you know or understand the concerns of these "people of colour?" It took me three weeks just to be really sure what their common problems are.

It is this type of condescending arrogance that makes me hostile to people like you. My experience over the years show me that those who strongly hold these "white people vs people of colour" views are those sit around in small political or academic tendencies spouting off high-minded ideals, yet when it comes to practicing those ideals by working with others respectfully and equals or help those in trouble they don't lift a finger.

What I'd like to ask is where does the hostility to Klingon's request come from?

As I understand it, Klingon is a white (for a Klingon) union organizer who has been called in to organize an ethnically diverse workplace. Support for the union among the workers seems to be divided along ethnic lines, and the workplace is becoming poisonous based on these differences. Klingon is asking for help because he's at a loss.

quote:

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Are there any progressive (pro-union) community groups among any of the ethnic groups at the workplace? With the CSN in the late 1970s, early 1980s, we had a lot of success organising in very multiethnic workplaces with the aid of such groups.

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K'pla! Thanks lagatta, for your suggestion. I am trying this now with the various contacts I have, and it has produced some good results. The problem is the time line is so short and the atmosphere is so poisoned, it's so frustrating.

I would like to hear more about your experiences in organizing in multi-ethnic workplaces and making solidarity links with progressive elements in various ethnic communities. Although I have done some of this work as well, I have found that there is always a lot to learn in this area.

So, seriously, post a few of your experiences. I, for one, will read them for sure. And please don't get the guilt-tripping condescending demagogues around here intimidate you with their drivel.

It's not about whether you use the term "person of colour", and no one on any of these threads has advocated the use of that term as some sort of touchstone of your politics. Certainly, I myself would only use that term in a setting where it was appropriate. So your experiment, which mostly seems designed to confirm your pre-existing beliefs, is quite meaningless. The debate is not about whether you use particular language in your workplace. It's about your analysis and approach.

The type of community organizing you are trying to do is hard, but it is not rocket science. Unfortunately you are saddled with an impossibly short timeline.

What is often needed is a long investment in relationship-building. If language is an issue, then the union has to make sure that it can communicate accessibly, whatever it takes.