I hate it when they call it "girl-watching" - I mean, hell, we're not "girls".

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Emily May, 26, and her friends were "all reporting three to five incidents of street harassment every day on average ... an epidemic.

"Everywhere you go, you hear comments (from men)," she says. "It speaks to the power dynamics between men and women."

May says 13- to 15-year-olds, especially, are "dumbfounded by the idea that all of a sudden they're being sexualized on the street."

Nor does it seem to matter whether it's winter and women are bundled up, or summer when they're more exposed, she says.

Besides, she insists, "women should be able to wear their underwear walking down the street and not be made uncomfortable."

But, she adds, "we're not saying men shouldn't be allowed to look at women in the street. If it's really appreciation, it should be done respectfully. And if the women enjoy it, they enjoy it."

Cerbu says she doesn't notice whether men are looking at her. . "I'm not looking for attention and I don't pay attention – as long as he doesn't make comments."

And what is construction worker Pansino's view? "I think a lot of women think we're pigs if we look at them but, to me, I think they should take it as a compliment," he says. "Women look at men just as much as we look at them but they don't admit it."

Are construction workers unfairly maligned for ogling? "Construction workers do get a bad name for this – rightfully, in some cases."

And then, he has a question: "Is she single?"

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My view on it is this: I don't think looking at a woman without comment - even if the look is a stare, even if the stare is creepy - is sexual harrassment. I have the right to stare at anything and anyone I want to stare at, and so does everyone else.

Of course, I also have the right to consider people who stare to be extremely rude. Everyone has been taught from childhood not to stare at people, but a lot of men seem to think that they're exempted from this basic rule of courtesy if a woman they consider to be good-looking is within their vicinity.

Excuse my language, but my boyfriend actually turned to me one day, when we were walking hand-in-hand (I mean the nerve of some guys to do it, while a woman is walking with their partner) and said to me "How does it feel to be eye-fucked like that all the time?" and he wasn't saying it jokingly, he was legitimately concerned. We talked about it for awhile, and he echoed my feelings that it is a form of sexual harrassment, and it can shake your self-worth sometimes, making you feel like mere eye-candy.

I wonder, how do other women on babble handle such things? A dirty look? Ignore it? Has anyone ever actually said anything?

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Originally posted by jrose:
I've had men ... grab me at bars.

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I've never done that, never would, but it happens because a lot of women go for that, in bars that is. The rationale is that getting rejected two or even maybe three times is ok if you get a chance with someone else.

As for the stopping with a car, that's very different. I've never heard of anyone doing that, that's pretty frightening. Another factor is self-reinforcing machismo. A lot of it would go away if those men had mroe female friends. A lot of people don't have friends of the opposite sex and I don't know why that is.

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

And that really sucks. Quite frankly, I think that's assault, when a guy grabs a woman. I think if more of us kicked guys in the nuts (I'm not going to say report it because I don't think it's taken seriously and then you get into the whole "can you prove it in court" thing) when they grab us - right then and there - then there might be less incentive for guys to do so.

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500 Apples has a point. For some kinds of behaviours, like grabbing in bars and stuff, guys do it because sometimes it works. Often it doesn't and I think most women don't like it, but it works often enough that guys will take their odds.

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But I think you've hit on the main issue here, Men are allowed to look at WOMEN (I agree the 'girls' tag is a little condecending), but we are not allowed to touch without concent, that would be assault.

However, where that 'concent' comes from in a bar situation is very differnt from being out on the streets. I've been out at a bar and some slimey jackass put his arm around and started grinding my girlfriend (with me standing no further than 2 feet away from her), I'm a non-violent person so he didn't 'get his ass kicked' but he certainly got an earful from me and a number of threatening looks from the rest of our friends. It was completely inappropriate in a club, but if someone has tried that out on the street I would be considering charging the guy. Not sure why the double standard is there in my head, but it's there...

He was describing how once in New York he saw a sanitation worker hanging out of the door on his garbage truck making comments to a beautiful women walking down the street. He was amazed that this guy would bother harrassing this woman, while riding in a garbage truck. But the guy said,

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Honestly, I think men should just be forced back to our best collectvie move. The drive by Honk. Nothing is guaranteed to get a woman hot for you like honking at her as you speed by.

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Honestly, I think men should just be forced back to our best collectvie move. The drive by Honk. Nothing is guaranteed to get a woman hot for you like honking at her as you speed by.

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Jerry Seinfeld made a joke regarding exactly this, and I remember laughing so much when I heard it years ago, but I can't seem to track it down anywhere online!

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1) Did anyone see a news story or a stand-up photo in a newspaper a while ago that featured women (I believe in either India or Pakistan) mobilizing to stare back at men who leered? I thought it was a neat idea.

2) Not being a woman (or a man that gets many second looks for that matter), I haven't noticed how widespread this sort of thing is in Canada. I do recall being shocked at the extent I noticed it in some European countries (particularly Greece). Men sat on patios, turned their chairs to the sidewalk and just watched. It was uncomfortable even for me.

Although I have noticed that even if I a guy was ogling a girl, she is offended or not offended depending on if that girl is attracted to that guy or not

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3) I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but some people may accuse me of leering or staring at women (or men) if they have something on their shirt. If I see a slogan or a button, or even a cool design, I stare to try to read it. Unfortunately, particularly if the item is on a woman, I feel awkward about staring at their chests. It's not like I can say 'please don't think I'm staring at your breasts, I'm just trying to read your shirt.' Or maybe I can, I don't know. Do people consider this girl-watching or just 'people-watching'?

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My boyfriend bought me the CBC shirt, with David Suzuki's head across the chest. He regretted that decision immediately, saying that he had just basically given others permission to take a look, haha!

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Originally posted by jrose:
I've had men ... grab me at bars.
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I've never done that, never would, but it happens because a lot of women go for that, in bars that is. The rationale is that getting rejected two or even maybe three times is ok if you get a chance with someone else.

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Is that actually true?? Like there are places where there is a reasonable likelyhood that some women will go for that???

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Originally posted by jrose:

As far as I see it, looking is fine! Checking out what someone is wearing, or what is on their shirt, isn't offensive to a woman. I think what this article is talking about is the crude, over-the-top, sexualization that many women feel when walking down the street because of extended, drooling, looks from wayward eyes. A quick glance, even a glance of appreciation, isn't necessarily a bad thing, but all too often it goes beyond this and becomes an insulting leer.

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I bet if Brad Pitt was the one doing the crude, over-the-top, sexualization staring the ladies wouldn't mind (Or atleast the vast majority of them). Which leads me to believe that it's not the staring but the fact that a particular girl might not think a certain guy it worthy enough to stare.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
They do it in a less obvious way.

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I bet if Brad Pitt was the one doing the crude, over-the-top, sexualization staring the ladies wouldn't mind (Or atleast the vast majority of them). Which leads me to believe that it's not the staring but the fact that a particular girl might not think a certain guy it worthy enough to stare.

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I do understand your argument, to a certain point. It bothers me more when older men eye-grope me, rather then young men, which I guess could feed into that. But I think that's because I see men close to my own age, as my peers.

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Originally posted by jrose:

I do understand your argument, to a certain point. It bothers me more when older men eye-grope me, rather then young men, which I guess could feed into that. But I think that's because I see men close to my own age, as my peers.

If Brad Pitt looked at me in a crude and degrating way, he would get the EXACT same dirty look from me as any other man would, I gaurentee it. Depending on what we're talking about here, but if it's a crude comment, a lustful look, or anything else that I would find uncomfortable, I don't think it's excusable from ANYONE. So I agree with Polly, that's bullshit. Any guy that thinks any of those things will do the trick better than a smile, and a nice hello, isn't worth my time, even if his name is Brad Pitt.

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My daughter et al do discuss some of their female peers as being insecure, and maybe going along with that sort of thing, but they discuss them in a sad and sympathetic manner.

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Originally posted by JayPotts:
Guess your in the very small minority.

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Originally posted by quelar:
To prove an example on the Brad Pitt one, I know he's not 'good looking' like Brad, but I was out with a friend on Monday and a certain 'Greatest Hockey Player of All Time' walked into the restaurant (No, sorry Parry Sounders, I'm not talking about Bobby Orr), she went to the washroom and on her way back I saw her snarl at the 'Great One', I asked why she'd done that when she sat down and she said "Cause he kept staring at my ___ ! I thought he was supposed to be a nice guy, not a pervert!".

So point being (and no, I'm not trying to slander anyone here, I'm sure I've been guilty of the same offense) that if a woman feels objectified by anyone, no matter what positive feelings you have about that person in advance, you're still going to feel objectified.

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Point taken, however I did say the vast majority of females wouldn't mind if Brad Pitt or the like was oglying them.
Most of the female memebers and thier friends of this website in particular would would be in that small minority.

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Honestly, it was a total turn-off, even for insecure me. I mean, sure, it was slightly good for the ego, considering I don't get that sort of thing much. But my main reaction, especially right in the moment, was annoyance and even anxiety and apprehension. In each case, the guy tried to find out my name, where I lived (like, EXACTLY where), what my phone number was, commented on my looks (positive, sure, but overdone, kind of crude, and embarrassing), and just sort of assumed that I'd like the attention. I don't think there has ever been a time in my life where I'd have reacted differently than I did then - by getting away from the guy as quickly and diplomatically as possible - and I've never been overly secure about my looks. If anything, women who are insecure or unused to dealing with that kind of thing might be slightly more accommodating than women who get it all the time - but that could be not because they're flattered but just haven't had as much practice dealing with it, and feel like they have to be polite or not hurt the person's feelings. Whereas women who have more experience with it have had time to process quite a few of those kind of incidents, think it over, and decide that the next guy who pulls this shit is going to be told in no uncertain terms to fuck off.

On the other hand, I've gone out dancing with friends, and occasionally been okay with some suggestive dance floor stuff. I was flattered by that - but it's because I always felt like it was on MY terms, and it would be after I was asked to dance, and it only went as far as I wanted it to go. If I started to feel uncomfortable, I just walked away and that was that. So, yes, it CAN be flattering to have guys come on to you in a bar if you're going out to dance and have a good time and you're looking for some dancing and flirting and fun.

But it's NOT fun to be leered at and groped when you're not into it, or the guy hasn't at least made any preliminary effort to find out whether you're in a "flirty" mood or not. It's not fun for anyone, secure or insecure, good looking or not good looking.

I also apologize if anything I said was offensive. I just wanted to get across the point that what one female might find offensive another may not. Each person responds differently it's why some guys still do what they do.

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: JayPotts ]

I am going to start by admitting that I have done a quick double-take once in a while. It is one of those 'who hasn't?' situations when you try to minimize it, however I actually feel rather bad about it. However, one thing I will never do is catcall. A few days ago I was out with a few friends and gave one of the other people in the group a quick *thwap* on the back of the head - nothing hard - when he made a rather lude comment about a young woman that had just walked by us at our table. I'm never a fan of that.

I feel that my fellow men need to realize that not everyone feels comfortable being 'eye-fucked' as it was so properly put earlier in this thread and it should be something above a courtesy that you simply don't do it. I have never been comfortable in situations where I'm being the one that is oogled excessively. And yes, I would really be happy if more feminists would bind together and assert themselves against such encrouching and harrassing sorts.

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Originally posted by jrose:

Jerry Seinfeld made a joke regarding exactly this, and I remember laughing so much when I heard it years ago, but I can't seem to track it down anywhere online!

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I think Jerry said it in his standup routine in the pilot episode. The punchline was "We're hoking our horns to serve you better".

Personally, I think that honking the car horn is rude under most situations. I mostly consider it to be aggresive behaviour akin to sticking ones head out the car window and yelling. I don't know why any woman would consider it a compliment to have a man honk their car horn at them. If I were a woman, my thought upon a man honking their car horn at me would be "you stupid, ingrateful, self-centred person!". Which is pretty much my thought as a man whenever someone honks their car horn at me.

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: Left Turn ]

I don’t understand why men think just because someone dresses up a bit , it means she is looking for sex. *sigh*

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]

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Originally posted by jrose:
That begs an interesting question, babblerwannabe. Is the male reaction based on how a female is dressed? I would agree that it is.

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[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

I admit I am a chronic girl-watcher. I'm attracted to lots of women I see in the streets, and I like to check them out. Sometimes I'm careful about it, sometimes I'm very obvious. is it wrong? I do wonder, but it doesn't stop me. I hope it doesn't bother anyone. I like to think girls are flattered when I try to catch their eye in passing, but of course I can't know. What's a guy who likes to look at girls to do?

It's a very tricky subject. Some here have said that looking is okay, but when it turns to leering it's bad, but when I look becomes a leer is entirely subjective. Obviously the girl knows, because she's the one who defines it as such, but how can the guy know? Where's the flashing light that pops up and tells us "subject of your attention has just considered your look to have become a leer. Stop immediately!"?

Sexual interaction of all kinds is very delicate and mercurial. Hitting on girls is welcome if they're attracted to you, but offensive if they're not. In the case of girl-watching, you don't even have the personal interplay to provide you with any signals to try and navigate by. Obviously, women have every right to set boundaries, but unless those boundaries are obvious, how can we respect them?

I spent some time in France and there, the looks, catcalls and flat-out invitations for sex were over the top, disgusting and sometimes even threatening to me. I was shocked that this was seen as normal behaviour and felt quite ethnocentric for judging the local women for putting up with what seemed to me to be such macho crap. Since then, I haven't really been bothered by any attention I've gotten in Canada, so I guess it's all relative (although I think I would feel uncomfortable if any of this happened at night and/or in an isolated area).

I maybe out in public but I am not public property. I go out in public to lead my life and interact with those I choose to, I really get irked when guys think the should chose for me who I should spend my time on. It's not about flattery or the segment of society who go to bars to get picked up or groped (I have yet to meet a woman who choses that but I guess their must be some) it's the assumption by men that no matter what I must hear them out in their pitch.

I object to the status quo that because I go out in public I am some how agreeing to be "eyefucked". I am just being and yet I am forced againt my will to deal with the agendas of men, I am never forced to deal with the same from women. So girl watching maybe a cute harmless passtime to some but it can turn into the assumption by many men that because I am not home I must deal with their desires, the ones they chose not to restrain and to that I say fuck off. I do not give up my right to chose who I interact with because I left my house. I don't leave my house to be "eye fucked", who has the right to intimidate another human being because they chose to venture into society? Why can't I expect to go to the store and be left alone?

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I don’t understand why men think just because someone dresses up a bit, it means she is looking for sex. *sigh*

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Again, it's the subjectivity of it. Not all guys who glance at attractive women are necessarily hoping she's out for sex.

In fact, considering that, as far as I can tell, all men are highly interested at an instinctive level at female physical features, I would say a majority aren't actually looking for sex.

According to a recent US study,, men are biologically quite a bit more attracted to very gender-specific (as in female) physical features than women. So it’s pretty much instinctive for guys to notice women and various features. They may not even be aware at that moment they are doing it. And of course various types of complimentary dress, make-up, etc. can help enhance those features.

Of course, it works the opposite way too, although not as deeply or intensely on the women’s part. The women I have met, been involved with or talked to throughout life have said they react more how a guy engages them, how he behaves and treats people, the things he does, etc., not so much looks.

So just because one takes pleasant notice of women, doesn't necessarily mean one is ready to hit the sack with her (which, of course, as you point out, in most cases, the women aren't either). Just because a women dresses in an exceptionally complimentary way, doesn’t mean she is necessarily looking for sex or even trying to solicit more attention. As some have pointed out, just because she may want to feel more beautiful or attractive, that is as much an instinctive act in itself—not for any other reason.

So it’s not a question of noticing or not. It’s more of a question of being somewhat respectful of who you happen to be noticing. A subtle glance may not be even noticeable (I’m pretty good at that ). A total eye-expanding gawk is certainly an invasion of a person’s space.

I have always found especially rewarding when an attractive woman (or women) catches your eye and returns a quick smile, as if she has taken the glance as a compliment. Some times it might spark a quick funny conversation. But that’s usually it. It’s obvious no one is ready to do the sack thing.

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I would think men will leer at women less if women covered up themselves more.

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It’s a general rule that less clothes, plus shapely features equals more attention. But even an attractive well-covered woman is still noticeable. And, as said, many women sometimes do like to wear less (I have read it has to do with fertility periods) or be noticed more. Again, it seems pretty instinctive—not because they are actually looking for anything.

CMOT Dibbler:

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Is hitting on a woman in a club or bar considered sexual harassment under all cercumstances?

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No it’s not. In North American and many European cultures, especially since the 1960s, bars and night clubs, and especially discos, are generally seen as places where many women go to get hit on. No point in minimizing it. It’s what those types of places are in business for.

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Originally posted by Scout:
The fine line that get's crossed is that if I chose to go into public space I am public property. That .... I go out in public to lead my life and interact with those I choose to, I really get irked when guys think the should chose for me who I should spend my time on. ......

I am not a fearful person, you chose to invade my space with overt staring, comments or a grab at my crotch and you'll be sorry. But I am the most sorry that I need to be so vigilante and downright nasty to be able to enjoy my freedoms as a person.

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I think this post summed up what many others are trying to communicate.. Your way with words Scout has aided in me comprehending what really is going on in public spaces.

I don't want to make this about me, as a male in society, and my ability to perceive what may or may not be happening... but I suspect that many males might feel they ought to control the agenda in public space for their self gratification.

People do enjoy looking (psychologically) at symmetrical faces and bodies, and admiring subjective beauty (a whole other issue), but at a community level the enjoyment needs to serve the community and be socially healthy, not serve individual sexual gratification.

I think society is more media savvy than ever, more aware as consumers than we ever have been, yet males are still socialized, and are still not aware that they are encouraged to dominate the social agenda in public spaces.

Our public spaces are chock full of mixed messages on hundreds (if not thousands) of ads on billboards and on buses and in media full of images of women's body's and subjective beauty being used to sell products.

I wonder if there are many males with the skills to navigate this, where the mind is being subjected to all these images in public space, and then that same mind sees real living female human beings going about their business in the same public space.

Can the psyche differentiate between two dimensional visual ads, and 3 dimensional human beings thousands of times a day when it is not critically thinking about the messages in public spaces that imply, "the public space belongs to the male", seek out your mate, gratify your impluses.

It's time for communities to take back the public spaces to serve an agenda that benefits the community, not just individual gratifications in a community, or the profits of the corporations that sponsor these ads in our communities that communicate to males that they ought to dominate the agenda in public spaces.

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

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Originally posted by TemporalHominid:

I think this post summed up what many others are trying to communicate.. Your way with words Scout has aided in me comprehending what really is going on in public spaces.

I don't want to make this about me, as a male in society, and my ability to perceive what may or may not be happening... but I suspect that many males might feel they ought to control the agenda in public space for their self gratification.

People do enjoy looking (psychologically) at symmetrical faces and bodies, and admiring subjective beauty (a whole other issue), but at a community level the enjoyment needs to serve the community and be socially healthy, not serve individual sexual gratification.

I think society is more media savvy than ever, more aware as consumers than we ever have been, yet males are still socialized, and are still not aware that they are encouraged to dominate the social agenda in public spaces.

Our public spaces are chock full of mixed messages on hundreds (if not thousands) of ads on billboards and on buses and in media full of images of women's body's and subjective beauty being used to sell products.

I wonder if there are many males with the skills to navigate this, where the mind is being subjected to all these images in public space, and then that same mind sees real living female human beings going about their business in the same public space.

Can the psyche differentiate between two dimensional visual ads, and 3 dimensional human beings thousands of times a day when it is not critically thinking about the messages in public spaces that imply, "the public space belongs to the male", seek out your mate, gratify your impluses.

It's time for communities to take back the public spaces to serve an agenda that benefits the community, not just individual gratifications in a community, or the profits of the corporations that sponsor these ads in our communities that communicate to males that they ought to dominate the agenda in public spaces.

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

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yet males are still socialized, and are still not aware that they are encouraged to dominate the social agenda in public spaces.

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I definitely believe in the reality of socialisation, and the ways in which it encourages males to dominate public space and the social agenda, but I think all these concepts are ill-applied to the phenomenon of men openly lusting after women.

If you raised a (heterosexual) man in a controlled environment without any other people (if such a thing could be possible without severe emotional damage) and then loosed him into the world as we know it, he would still be consumed by sexual urges for the women he saw, though he would have no frame of reference for what was happening or why. This is an entirely biological phenomenon, designed to perpetuate the species. This poor fellow would stare, he would leer, and with no socialisation to tell him what is appropriate or not around other people, he would probably act on every passing sexual whim and start grabbing women randomly.

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I admit I am a chronic girl-watcher. I'm attracted to lots of women I see in the streets, and I like to check them out. Sometimes I'm careful about it, sometimes I'm very obvious. is it wrong? I do wonder, but it doesn't stop me. I hope it doesn't bother anyone. I like to think girls are flattered when I try to catch their eye in passing, but of course I can't know. What's a guy who likes to look at girls to do?

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Originally posted by babblerwannabe:

I don’t know, I would think men will leer at women less if women covered up themselves more. This is why it’s such a big deal for women to be topless, females are sexualized in a way that men are not.

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I agree with that wholeheartedly at the same time as believing it is human nature to look at others. In the Lower Mainland some women have been actively trying to push the envelope by swimming topless at public pools. They appear to believe that it will reduce ogling in the long run even if it starts out aa a bit of a freak show. I sort of agree with the view that if women did go topless in places like swimming pools that it might be far less sexual in the long run especially in comparison to wearing something like a bikini.

The sexual glances a subset of the broader realm.

I think regardless of gender people, being social animals, will tend to look up when entering visual contact range with another person. Certain instinctive judgements occur before one glances elsewhere, or decides to continue the scrutiny. One reads a person for threat potential, curiosity - how many legs do they have - race, age, social status. Its all useful, potentially survival information about whatever tribe or neighbourhood we happen to be travelling among.

To catch or not catch an eye a further step. Sometimes a face will be so interesting or attractive that one will continue to examine it past the point where one might look away and dismiss the potential - that exists in every crossing of paths - for further socializing.

Most of the time one surveys approaching faces for noteworthy criteria but lightly and noncommitally, so as not to give offence, invite too intense a return scrutiny, etc. and looks away without engagement.

The sexual element enters in immediately one recognizes a potential mating partner and I'm sure we're dealing with DNA that reaches back at least to early mammals but probably for as long as there have been eyes. One quickly assesses for biological features - and here cultural conditioning a big factor - that might support the prospect of sexual reproduction.

At this point cultural conditioning should kick in and offer some guidance. We're not taught this stuff in school, but we certainly learn it, its culture not biology, and the mores around it vary from place to place.

At any rate, this is a long way off from the stuff of this thread. On a personal level, besides being an avid people-watcher - I never tire of it - I love looking at women, which obviously has a sexual component; and being looked at by women; I love looking longer at ones I think are attractive, I love the game component that sometimes attend this, the whole ritual is fascinating! Trying to gauge by the length and timing of their attention how interested they are in me, etc. Narcissism!

But out of respect one is discrete and this is a social convention I think most people practice. You can look, and enjoy the looking, but if you stare, or sustain the look or invest it with too much intensity you have transgressed the bounds of proper practice. Ideally the look, if addressed to someone you find attractive, can be handled in such a way as to be a subtle compliment. Ah ha, I find you attractive enough to let my eye linger on you a moment or two past the time it takes to finish reading your appearance!

Then you get these nice games where you find yourself complimented in turn, their glance averting just as you begin your own, then returning as you avert/redirect your own gaze.

Gender differences and conditioning, how often I remark this - yesterday for example, I looked up and saw a girl, perhaps 10 and noted how she glanced down/away as I approached, even at that prepubescent age. What multiple forces at play there, familial, peer group, community....where and when did this child learn to avert her eyes from men? I wore my usual benign, non-sexual, non-threatening look, there was nothing particular or engaging about my expression. And I remarked at the time, hm, how people are conditioned. I was somehow sorry for this child because the natural thing is to look at the approaching stranger, out of human curiosity; but gender roles come into play and already this girl had learned to suppress this natural drive in the interests of community sexual codes.

The coyness of the averted eye, wielded by a sexually mature and available adult, in distinction from the above example, which is to express non-presence, a deliberate wish to not-engage.

How much can be read from this. The woman has/does not have a partner for a start. If she has a partner, then the averted eye is real. Body language reinforces this. If she is curious/looking, then the averted eye may be part of a game of look-at-me. I am looking away now to allow you to look at me without me seeing you looking at me (you may admire me).

the number of times one glances over just as the other is finishing their glance...the sexual game one plays where one pretends to NOT look, only to steal a glance at the last second - only to find them doing exactly the same. Something in the first unfocussed, scanning read registered information that called for a further, closer look....and the game here, of course, is to manage this second look without getting caught, for that would be to frankly acknowledge one's interest and intent, which won't do at all! No, no, not buying today! Or, you're not that cute, I know you've caught me stealing that second glance but I'm still much too cool, and self-possessed to admit it even now!

Passing couples, one is naturally curious - as a male - to look at the woman principally or first, but out of politeness I tend to look at both in turn, almost as if seeking permission; I'll still look at the woman, but more briefly than I might otherwise, as if in passing, and still feel a little rude. Accident/not accident sort of thing. Ahem.

The amount of candour: too much and one comes off as brazen. It is after all, potentially impolite. You're messing with someone's mental space, their attention, if you look too strongly. But the fun when there is a mutual matching, as each party dares/invites the other to show more.

And again, in our culture it is discouraged, impolite. God forbid you should reveal anything in your gaze! 'Guarded' the default position.

Because of course, the shared look is so potent! Inaudible, immaterial, it is still the threshold to remarkable things! It can inaugurate conversation with a total stranger, a sexual relationship, or a physical attack if its object is an unpolished male with issues!

Two days ago I was bicycling past a row of cars slowing for an approaching light. Lost in thought I looked up from my dedicated bike lane and found myself suddenly staring in the face of a notably pretty woman, a passenger in a car who must have been staring out her open window, as abstracted as myself. There was this charming moment of mutual delight as we both recognized the accidental nature of our eyes bumping into each other's faces at just the same moment; we beamed broadly at each other as I passed by, sharing this joke.

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: Merowe ]

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: Merowe ]

Personally, as a male, I would love to be objectified once in a while. I spent fourteen damn dollars on a goddamn stick of Axe deodorant and it's not working.

Anyway this is for jrose:

And this is what we men really want:

quote:

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Originally posted by Maritimesea:
Personally, as a male, I would love to be objectified once in a while. I spent fourteen damn dollars on a goddamn stick of Axe deodorant and it's not working.

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While Rebecca West and I were waiting for our sandwiches to be made, I happened to glance around the room, and noticed an 18sh year old woman looking at me. I figured she was thinking, "who's the old dork?" so I looked away, talked to Rebecca about the Deliverance-esque customer in the drive through, and I happened to look back in the direction of the young woman, and she was looking at me again.

I think she was checking me out. Honestly. I think we all know the look. At least, that's how it seemed to me. It kinda wierded me out. Flattering? Hmm. No. As icky as it is for guys my age to oggle young women, it is icky the other way too.

BUT

After reading this, it strikes me that it is quite possible that she was thinking, "who's the old dork?", and then started thinking, "who's the creepy old dork who keeps checking me out?"

Maybe both of us thought that the other was leering, all the while unable to look away for long because we thought each other strange and creepy?

Young men who cat call and leer are, in my estimation, cowardly. I say this because none do it when they know an older guy like me is aware of it. Somehow, our mere presence seems to keep them in line.

I'm in Ottawa right now, for some Canada Day festivities/Re-united with some old friends that I haven't seen in a few months. Canada Day was a quiet BBQ with friends that ended just after supper time. So, instead of heading downtown for the way-too-busy, predictable celebration, we walked to the end of my friend's street, who I am staying with for a few days, to visit a pub, have a few pints, and started our walk home around 2 a.m. An early night for Canada Day!

It was myself, and my three male buddies, tying into the comments up higher about how females and males need to be friends more often. Three young kids, 18-20ish, were walking on the other side of the street, glaring at us, me in particular, and started making lewd, crude, disgusting comments about me. My friends, being the kind of guys they are, wouldn't laugh it off, seeing it as a personal attack, and my one buddy stopped, and just glared at the kids. Nothing too threatening, just enough to say that they had crossed a line, and it wouldn't be tolerated. Two seconds later beer bottles were flying through the air at my friends, three-on-three, while I basically stood there trying my best not to get involved.

Beer bottles became home-made weapons, that these kids had in their pockets. Clearly already looking for a fight. Socks, filled with coins. This turned into their belt buckles in this absolute complete random act of violence. My friends kept shouting "you've won! We're going home," but this only aggrivated the attackers worse. At this point kids came running from all the other apartment buildings around us. For me, I was thinking, finally, someone is here to help, and break it up! Little did I know that it was just more buddies of these guys, bringing the fight to three against at least seven or eight. Relentless beating.

Finally, a lady got out of her car, and put herself int he middle. She called the cops, and the kids scattered across the neighbourhood. So, long story, short (well, I tried to keep it short!) we spend the last half hour of our evening with the cops, recounting this brutal, random act of violence. Nobody laid a hand on me, except for one shove, but I have a friend with a tooth chiped half-way through, and all three of them are black and blue.

The reason I think this is a good post to this thread is because next time some guy leers at you or makes rude comments about you, it will intimidate you a lot more after this, won't it?

THAT is the problem with this kind of sexist behaviour. Any woman who has experienced any kind of violence or threat of violence will be intimidated by it. And considering that I doubt there are any men who actually think they're going to get a date by saying, "Hey baby, nice ass!" or something similar, then clearly there is another motive behind such a statement.

quote:

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Originally posted by Agent 204:
...I think that when a bunch of guys start whistling and catcalling at a woman, they're displaying for each other, not for the woman- they're trying to prove their manhood, and the woman is just the occasion for it. That may have been the case with the kids who attacked your friends, too.

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keen observation Agent 204. jrose, this has been on my mind since you posted it and i must say each time i read it i feel ill. don't for a second be hard on yourself for "freezing" in this senselessly violent situation. really, you did nothing wrong. relating to Agent's observation, clearly you were not the target, but a convienient catalyst for these idiots who were out looking for a fight. they were too cowardly to pick one directly with your male friends, and when your friends reacted quite naturally to the verbal assault on you, that was all the excuse needed to attack. pure cowardice, plain and simple. i had many flashbacks as i was reading this to growing up in Kamloops and Winnipeg. lots of drive-by toughguys using the women i was walking with to provoke a fight with me and/or the other males with them. I would always cringe and look for some sort of defensive object immediately. the absolute predictable result of any reaction is more verbal, then if they are really out cruising, physical assault. there is nothing you or your friends could likely have done to prevent what happened, sadly. If you had reacted, as was pointed out, these fools were obviously conditioned not to hit women ( they left you alone, and another woman, older in particular, was able to break it up), they would have attacked your male friends. your pals reacted and the result was the same. i grew up living in mortal fear of assholes like that. my instant reaction now as a result of that fear is to confront and shut down any and all violence when i see it. this does not need to be done physically now we have cell phones, but in one surprising incident when i called the police on two kids breaking into a car, they pointed me out to an older buddy of thiers who walked right up and physically threatened me while i was talking to the police!

i guess the real nub of this is that regardless of what any of you could or would have done, these kids used the catcalling to initiate an attack. total macho crap. i am at a loss though as to what to do to prevent it. we are bombarded daily by violence as entertainment and as a solution to our problems. that eventually results in conditioning some in society to emulate what they are fed. the only thing really is to have zero tolerance for violence in person and act on it. question: were the kids that did this caught?

i hesitated commenting on the "girl-watching" topic of this thread until i read that account of jrose's experience. I am, by my own description, a "rubbernecker". and yes, it has caused me trouble, but primarily from walking into a pole (once), running into the back of my friend and then having to explain why we bumped the couple ahead of us, and recently, catching my bike on a pole (i was walking). all quite embarassing, but funny to all concerned at the time. i think that there is a huge difference between people of either sexes discretely checking each other out, and derogatory cat calling/wolf whislting/demeaning behaviour or comments. i do think the first, as it has been mentioned above can be quite harmless, and if non-threatening, sometimes enjoyed by the other party. the line is absolutely drawn though by the person on the recieving end. if they don't like it, then it's not cool. period. the proper thing to do is to appologise if you are caught/confronted in that situation. or you could be like me and walk into a pole and get a laugh at your own expense.

[ 06 July 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

Adventures In Street Harassment

And from their archives:

“if you didn’t want to be stared at you shouldn’t go outside”*

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Summer is well upon us, and as a result I’ve been (as per usual) a victim of some leering and catcalling regardless of whether I’m wearing a minidress or a burlap sack. As soon as the clothes come off to beat the heat, it seems some people think they got their permission slip to yell and ogle as much as they like. I talk a mean game, but to be honest there’s times when the discomfort of someone’s comments causes me to feel vulnerable, mute and well, afraid. Case in point: after I ignored one guy’s invitation to come over and have a beer with him and his friends, he proceeded to call me an “ugly bitch.” Street harrassment may sometimes feel like a fact of life, but looks like there’s some people unwilling to accept it and willing to do something about it.

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My neighbourhood gets cruised by alot of *johns* who think any female on the street is a sex worker. Doesn't matter if I'm carrying several bags of groceries or riding my bike - they think I'm for sale. It's intimidating when a car slows down and circles back. My body starts preparing for a confrontation. The adrenaline makes me a bit dizzy and I just want to duck for cover.

Once I was even followed into my apartment building after I bade farewell to the last of my Thanksgiving guests. Luckily those guests were still within sight of me and came back to my aid in a BIG hurry.

I do get oogled by 'non-johns' as well. The last guy who wouldn't take no for an answer didn't care that I am married OR from out of town! Luckily I was with a friend who could just drive me out of the area.

And then there are the pimps who would walk along side of me, trying to coax me into working for them while I ignored them.

(There were some funny times, like the guys who actually asked if my friends and I were lesbians, and we said we were, and they ran away looking horrified. And the guy who pulled his van over, starting to say, "Hey, baby!" and his van stalled because it was minus 30C. I don't know how he could tell I was female from all the layers I had on.)

And then there are all those guys who lose their minds when the winter clothes come off.

quote:

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As part of her research, Kearl conducted an anonymous, informal e-mail survey of 225 women on the subject. She found that 98 percent of respondents experienced some form of street harassment at least a few times, while about 30 percent reported being harassed on a regular basis.

"For me, anyone who interrupts my personal space to objectify me or make me feel uncomfortable or threatened is harassing me," she says.

Women take both sides

As the weather warms each spring, women -- especially in cities with active sidewalk traffic -- once again face catcalls from men. It's a situation some find unnerving and an invasion of their space, while others ignore or are even flattered by.

"I call it street abuse," says New York City filmmaker Maggie Hadleigh-West, 49. "It's unwanted attention and invasion of space."

In her 1998 documentary "War Zone," Hadleigh-West confronted catcallers and filmed their responses. Many of the men literally ran away to avoid talking to her about why they whistled or made a provocative comment. The Department of Defense has used the film since 2002 to train branches of the military about issues surrounding sexual harassment and sexism in general, she says.

"Being in a public space with a strange man who is being sexually aggressive is potentially dangerous," Hadleigh-West adds.

On the other hand, some women appreciate the attention in certain cases, like Jessica, a 31-year-old health-care educator in Los Angeles, who declined to use her last name to protect her privacy. "Yeah, it's objectifying and all, but you know, if I walked down the street and didn't have men looking me up and down and catcalling, I'd think, 'Boy I must really be getting old and dumpy'," she says.

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It is an interesting article, though I find it difficult to relate to the young women who are flattered by cat calls. I’m flattered when a nice guy comes and offers to buy me a coffee, or smiles at me on the street (boyfriend or not, I’m allowed to be flattered!), but laying on the horn or grabbing at me as I walk by isn’t flattering. Either is calling me a “bitch” when I don’t stop to chat or if I reply with a snarky comment or an eye roll, or even the finger if I’m feeling a little sassy. Last time I checked, my body wasn’t public property.

[ 14 May 2008: Message edited by: jrose ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sineed:
Basically, young pretty girls are prey.

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quote:

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I actually feel safer. The younger guys tend to be more dangerous, and they are ignoring me more now, screaming at the young girls, while I get quietly ogled by 60 year olds carrying Starbucks coffee cups.

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I do not know about safer, and younger guys being more dangerous. When i was on the other side of 40 I do not remember men stepping into my personal space to smell/sniff me and believing they had a right to do so, but it has happened to me several times in the last year by middle aged men. To the point I want to go out dressed slovenly and reeking of body odor.

quote:

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In her 1998 documentary "War Zone," Hadleigh-West confronted catcallers and filmed their responses. Many of the men literally ran away to avoid talking to her about why they whistled or made a provocative comment.

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quote:

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I was explaining how oftentimes, the catcalling from men and boys in passing cars, however harmless in intent, can be mind-numbingly objectifying, down right insulting, or even terrifyingly threatening and intimidating.

As the male product of an upper-middle class family, my boyfriend has never felt the fear that often accompanies being a woman of any class in this society. Like most men, he has never been encouraged to carry his keys in his hand or pepper spray in his pockets to fend off possible assailants. He has never been told that it is necessary to immediately lock the car doors as soon as he gets inside his vehicle. He has never felt embarrassed, humiliated, self-conscious, frustrated, or angry at comments made about his physical anatomy by men whom he has never met before. He has never felt the urge to frantically glance around for other people when a man comes a little too close. He has never felt the need to quickly duck in to a near by store to escape the threatening leer of a man who has been following him for several blocks. I have. Women have.

I was trying to accurately explain what is to be a woman, alone and in public. He was not understanding. Drawing from personal experience, I told him about the things that were yelled from passing cars while jogging on isolated rural roads as a young teenage girl. I told him about the things that were murmured to me from those same cars when they slowed down to my pace, on isolated rural roads. My boyfriend laughed. I cried and wished I were anywhere but where I was, having any conversation but the one that I was. Dinner was eaten in silence.

While we ate in an awkward quiet which made our waitress uncomfortable, I thought about my experiences as woman alone in public. I thought about the time I was running barely a block from my apartment, located in a 'good' area, and had change thrown at me, accompanied by yells of , "Is that enough? Can I get some head?!" I thought about how angry and embarrassed I was. How I questioned myself. Do I look slutty? Should I have worn looser pants? I thought about all of the times that I have been rubbed up against and grabbed in public, on sidewalks, in airports, at work. I thought about the disgusting comments that have been made to me by complete strangers. I thought about the fear that I instinctively feel every single time that I must cross a dark parking lot alone, keys clenched tightly while checking the back seat of my car. It is so unfair and so heartbreaking that women, every God forsaken day, must live in exactly the same way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldgoat:
I completely agree that more men should have women who are just friends. I wonder what prevents that.

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[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

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To me it's all the same crap. I am seen as less of a person because of my sex.

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I've been on subways and had guys masturbate in front of me. I've been touched, fondled and groped since I was a small child. Even back then I grew to think of my body as something not belonging to me at all but more like this thing I had to show off for the sake of men. After so much harassment, you really begin to feel that your living self is no longer your own, but belongs to the public domain.

quote:

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And I am awfully tired of the police, and other agencies who say that we, as women, must watch where we go at night, who we are with, watch our drinks like hawks, watch what we wear, watch over our shoulders. Why not tell men to stop their behaviours? Why are women always the ones who end up with the onus of doing something and why are men given a free pass, as if sex assaults and unwanted sexual harassment is something isolated. We all know it isn't isolated, but a long ingrained theory that our bodies belong to men. It is men who need to change. Not us.

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That said, we all know that the most likely attacker and harasser a woman will face is someone known to her. I know that most people posting currently already know this. But I think it helps to remember that, as horrific as street harassment is, and I've suffered from far less of it than most women, it's by far not the worst a woman can experience in terms of verbal harassment. There's patriarchy for you.