[ 22 July 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

Also has a lower cost of living than a lot of big cities. I could never own a home like the one I have in a larger centre.

Grande Prarie- growing fast and its a nice city. The only problem is that it is a pain in the ass to get to any major urban centre from there. This problem will lessen over time as GP itself will become more of an urban centre. With a good enough job offer, I'd definately consider it.

Regina- Does not seem like a bad place to live. Especially if one could afford a house in Lumsden... so if one day I am able to get a job there that paid high enough, I'd definately go. But that is dependant on the job being very good.

Vancouver- Not bad, but thats getting a bit big for my liking. I'd consider living in the surrounding area maybe, but that is tres expensive. Would require extremely lucarative job opportunity.

Calgary- Not exactly worlds of difference between Calgary and Edmonton, except that the C-Train kicks ETSLRT's ass. But then again the U of A is far superior to the U of C. I wouldn't mind living in Calgary since it is relatively close to Edmonton anyways. But even if I did move to Calgary, I'd still be an Oilers fan

Medicine Hat- No, nein, no-way, eggs-nay on the yes part, negatory....
Don't like it. A bit too small, kinda creepy at night, and nothing really there. The only reason why I don't avoid the place completely is because I have friends there, most of which move away from there as fast as possible. Oh and no good university either, just MHC.

I do plan on visiting the east at some point in the near future, starting with Nova Scotia next month. But I've heard from friends that small town Nova Scotia is like hell. Don't know about Halifax though...

Despite being battered and bruised by the provincial Tories and neglected by the Mulroney-Chretien regime, this still is a great place to live.

I've got neighbours who are Chinese, Greek, Italian, South Asian, West Indian, African...and even a few WASP's too!

Within 15 minutes walking distance of home I can grab a roti, go for Thai or Chinese, Indian, Ethiopian, Greek, authentic Mexican (not the Tex-Mex bar food) and that's just for starters!
Where else are you going to see signs in windows advertising hallal pizza?

Then I moved to Winnipeg for four years. Smaller, a bit more monocultural (to use someone else's term), but a lively arts scene and again some nice little neighbourhoods dotted about. Nice, I thought, but Toronto was better.

Then I swung back through Toronto on my way to the UK. Hated it. No trees, urban wasteland, cement tower blocks and nothing in between, terrible traffic...(obviously I'm overemphasizing and mischaracterizing a fair bit here) Suddenly I missed Winnipeg.

Toronto
Pros: Much of what everyone else said (loved it there).
Cons: Damn expensive. Busybody neighbors.

Calgary:
Pros: Good job market, Rocky Mountains, hundreds of kms of bike paths, Bow River, chinooks.
Cons: Horrid architecture, groupthink, no summer.

Charlotte (currently):
Pros: "The City of Trees", mountains and ocean in daytrip range, good job market, snows once a year, everyone is from somewhere else, lots of good eats, affordable housing.
Cons: The SUV is King, ozone alerts, religious jackasses.

I don't like how smoggy and dirty it is. I don't like how little nature there really is, and how far apart from eachother the little plots of nature are (I clearly live right downtown). It's easy to get around in, and I love that it's a city that doesn't force you to use a car (even makes it really difficult to be a driver, I'd say), but everywhere you go there are people in desperate need, and nobody really seems to care.

Last week the mural was gone, painted over in black. It had the lines:

Second choice would be St. John's, great people, spectacular location and scenery, great food, and a heck of a lot of fun with a surprisingly large number of things going on.

Third would be Halifax much the same reasons as Sin Jahns.

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Regina/Moose Jaw (home town)
Pros: Inexpensive, low stress, nice folks, the Riders.
Cons: Brutal winters, lousy job market, flat, no trees, the Riders.

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Flat's not a bad thing... There isn't anything getting in the way of the VIEW...

Vancouver - what can I say? I love the left coast! While I've never lived in Vancouver, every time I've been there I've felt good.

Victoria - again, never lived there, found it awfully manicured, but it has that great west coast vibe that's so relaxing. And the gardens are GAWGEOUS!

Toronto - I enjoyed living there, and as cities go I think it's one of the best in the world. So much to do and see, relatively safe in most areas, relatively and clean (infrastructure needs an infusion of cash tho), good public transit system, some good schools without metal detectors Unfortunately, since the election of the Harris/Eves tories and the forced amalgamation, its problems have multiplied exponentially. Which is one of the reasons I loaded up the truck and moved to....

London - lots of trees and parkland, again relatively clean and relatively safe. The infrastructure isn't bad, the transit system is adequate but needs restructuring, it's very class-conscious, fairly homogenous and quite conservative. It's your basic university town, but with a great deal of potential.

Miami - I lived there in the early 80s. Nice beaches, I must say, and not far from the Keys, but horribly racist, backward, violent, with such extreme conspicuous consumption cheek-by-jowl with appalling poverty. But, like I said, nice beaches.

What I love about Toronto more than anything, and one of the few things I'll really miss when I leave, is the multiculturalism. A while ago I had a conversation with some co-workers about religion. One was a Buddhist, one a Muslim, one a Catholic and me, an non-practicing Christian. The entire conversaton left quite an impression on me and could never have happened in Calgary! I love the different ethnic neighbourhoods and love meeting people from areas of the world I barely knew existed. That's what makes Toronto truly world class.

I lived in Calgary for 3 years before moving to Toronto and was absolutely in love with the city. Small enough to feel town-ish but large enough that you could still have some anonymity if you wanted it. I lived right downtown but always felt close to the country because of the number of parks in the downtown area and because the mountains were always visible.

[ 18 July 2003: Message edited by: dee ]

To me it is beautiful, and while it is not cosmopolitan in the way Montreal is or Toronto is sort of becoming, there is a definite native vitality -- orneriness? -- that I think you can always feel there. There's a spark; there is a local culture; sometimes it is bumptious and troubling, but the spark is attractive.

I know, dee: what is a horizon without mountains, eh?

I spent most of my first twelve years in Medicine Hat, so I know flat too -- and what flatlanders know, of course, is that it isn't really flat at all, and it is certainly multi-coloured. Stare at a patch of wild prairie for a while, and the colours will start to jump out at you, browns and purples and greens and all shades in between.

I've also lived in Vancouver, Edmonton, London (Eng), Sheffield, and here. I've spent many weeks over the years in Edinburgh and Stirling, Scotland, and I would like to try living in Edinburgh for a year, anyway. Edinburgh is spectacularly beautiful, both the Old Town (medieval -- the castle must have been one of Disney's models) and the New Town (a triumph of late C18-early C19 Georgian neo-classical planning and architecture). And yet it is quite little, quite compact. And the Scots are very dear to me.

There's the problem of the rain and the long darkness. That's why I'd try it for a year, before I made firm decisions. Hard to organize, though.

Summertime, going up an hour or so to fantastic beaches with smalltown charm and lack of crowds. Sitting on patios having a drink or three...festivals (Folk Festival is among Canada's best, and the Fringe too!). Did I mention the people are great?

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Flat's not a bad thing... There isn't anything getting in the way of the VIEW...

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SaskTourism slogan:

"See Saskatchewan! Stand on a chair!"

Right. Cities. So far I've lived in Toronto, Victoria, Vancouver, and now Calgary. Calgary's OK -- some of my ambivalence has to do with my work here. Victoria's the most liveable I've experienced so far, but Vancouver and Toronto have a lot to recommend them. I can't see moving back to Toronto, though. Smog was bad enough when I was there, and coupled with southern-Ontario heat/humidity in summer...

[ 18 July 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]

I did live in Ottawa for the first 3 years of my life, but I don't count that cuz I hardly remember it. (Mostly I remember snow -- lots of snow.)

It's kind of embarrassing -- I've seen more of foreign places like the US, England, Scotland and Indonesia than I have of my own country!

One thing I've always wanted to do -- who knows when I'll get around to it -- is to drive across this whole bleeding massive country from one end to the other, all the friggin' way to St. John's. Someday.

Not that I have any desire to live anywhere but Vancouver. In fact, I am currently living in the exact spot I would choose to if I had a gajillion bucks and the whole planet to choose from. Literally -- I wouldn't move even one block.

Beach, movies, restaurants, Stanley Park, SeaWall, all within a couple minutes' walking distance. Heaven.

I'm not sure I'd like to live in Vancouver proper, but one of those smaller towns in the Fraser Valley might be okay. Being from the flat lands of S/W Ontario, the mountains touch me in a way I don't think I'll ever do justice to with words.

To live in the North might be okay. I like the summers, for sure. I still want to retire to the Bruce Penninsula, which, if not "North", is free from the summer miasma of humidity and stale air that now plagues S/W Ontario.

So, Pike Bay, Ontario.

I've seen London, my home town, through someone else's eyes lately. There's things I've never appreciated nor properly depreciated before.

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I'm not sure I'd like to live in Vancouver proper, but one of those smaller towns in the Fraser Valley might be okay.

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London is on the cusp of not being able to sustain hair brained clique politics much longer, and there's going to be a shift to the positive in the next decade or so.

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I know, dee: what is a horizon without mountains, eh?

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Uncluttered?

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SaskTourism slogan:

"See Saskatchewan! Stand on a chair!"

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Dude. You are aware that not only is that hardcore Alliance country, it's the Bible Belt of western Canada?

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I didn't know it was that bad. But hey, If I moved out there, I had my heart set on sitting on the porch with a shotgun and telling people to "keep movin' on" if they ever came up my lane.

It was all part of "separation agreement, plan B".

Granted, politics is politics Skdadl, and I don't expect some kind of utopia with growth-- I know it will bring along a new set of problems. But, I'm tired of complaining about the old problems, and would find new ones a rather refreshing change.

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Originally posted by 'lance:

Dude. You are aware that not only is that hardcore Alliance country, it's the Bible Belt of western Canada? A good friend of mine in Vancouver is from the lower Fraser Valley, and got his ass out of there, and into Vancouver, as soon as possible -- for rather similar reasons that I got my ass out of the Ottawa Valley, and down to Toronto, as soon as possible.

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*LMAO* -- I live in the Fraser Valley and yah, it's the bible belt! But the Alliance is not quite so strong anymore (NDP candidate -- anyone????). Also there are very, very few people of different cultures here. Lots of white, Dutch Christian folk! BTW, at my son's Christmas play (yup, "Christmas", not "Season's Greetings" or "Happy Holidays") is still "allowed" here in the Wack!) They sang songs about Jesus and everything!

...the last bastion of political uncorrectedness

[ 24 July 2003: Message edited by: Meowful ]

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Just teasing, Zoot. Saskatchewan's great. Anyway, if I were really nasty about the place, random members of my dad's side of the fambly would kick my ass...

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Yah, I know.

And the random family members... Well, they're like that out here.

I've spent a fair bit of time (multiple visits, lasting a week or more each) in Vancouver, Galiano Island, Whitehorse, Calgary, Winnipeg, the White Shell area, Ottawa, Quebec City, Fredericton, Moncton, Saint John, Shediac, Antigonish, Wolfville, Annapolis Royal, Sydney, and Antigonish.

I like to think I know a fair bit of this country reasonably well :-).

Hands down, for me and mine, it's Halifax. We moved here in 1982, intending to stay a couple of years, enjoy a calmer life by the sea, then move back to bright-lights-big-city in TO or Vancouver or Montreal or NYC or London ... you get the picture.

Great! Fantastic! Stylish! Touristy!

"Wow," you might comment. And then you might ask, "Why was the downtown streets closed on Saturday?"

And, as a resident living about two blocks away from this fantastic spectacle, a resident that has nothing good to say about suburbia and the invention that spawned it, I'd remark, "Well, the City of Brampton shut down traffic in the core so, of course, you could wander the streets and look at… cars!"

I kid you not.

I can now say that my eyes have been blessed by the sight of the official Indianapolis 500 pace car used on May 28, 1978 (a Corvette).

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Originally posted by aRoused:

Then I swung back through Toronto on my way to the UK. Hated it. No trees, urban wasteland, cement tower blocks and nothing in between, terrible traffic...(obviously I'm overemphasizing and mischaracterizing a fair bit here) Suddenly I missed Winnipeg.

Go figure.

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It's got lots of good qualities, like trees all around, a beautiful downtown, nice friendly people, one of the better Value Villages, a snug population, and it's been years since I've seen flamingos on anyone's lawn (that's serious progress). Plus when the US does something dumb, with the border right close, we can protest the action and have the demonstration make sense. You folks in Toronto and Montréal just look silly. It's also nice having a strong NDP riding association, an environmental organization with a semi-functional office, and a network of creative activists with diverse tastes and opinions.

When I travel, I find a lot of people have some misconceptions about the Soo. Part is they think it's a small logging town in the middle of nowhere. We've also got a reputation for vocal bigotry, and to a lesser degree, incompetance. Most of this is completely untrue. The Soo's about the same size as Sherbrooke, Kamloops, or Prince George. Bigger than crummy tory-towns like Peterborough and Saint John which get far more attention than they're due. And as for bigotry... it's getting better. It used to be horrible, from what I've heard, but nowadays it's pretty much up to standard with the rest of mid-sized-city Canada. One thing about the Soo, though, is I find the citizens have a very powerful sense of shame. I'm sure we all remember the Hedy Fry incident, where the past secretary of state for multiculturalism said that (Prince George?) had a serious problem with klansmen, and whatnot. Well had that happened here, The National would not be broadcasting clips of citizens angry about slander this, and false reputation that. No, no. The clips you'd likely see would be someone stopped on the street by the CBC crew, saying "Really? Here? In Sault Ste. Marie? Oh. [...] *heavy sigh* yeah, probably. Shoot..." Followed by some type of attempt to apologize to the world on the city's behalf.

All that said, there are some other disturbing things about the city. For instance, the strip mall/big box development on the northboudn Thruway. Very Suburbanesque, and quite unsightly. Also, half hour, centralized bus service. No bicycle lanes. Lots of conservative-minded folk (though generally accepting. I guess it's hard to get away from them). No train out of town (except the tourist train to the Agawa canyon). Only one airline for the time being. Popular suburban/consumerist mindset. Most of the city's layout is designed for cars. Wal-Mart. Arts scene took a dip a few years back. Incompetant mayor and city council who encourage the suburban mindset, and have placed the new hospital on the opposite side of town (outside the main population concentration, right close to our new Wal-Mart! Thanks, fuckers!), okayed the development of a Home Depot, underfund transit, and have absolutely no vision.

Visited Winnepeg for Federal ND convention in 2001 and loved it

Visited Toronto in June for Tory Convention and didn't really get a chance to see it.

Like 17th ave in Calgary and thier train system, but that's about it.

Port Hope- 4 years. Beautiful town near the lake. Too small, yet not rural enough.

Winnipeg- 10 wonderful years there, but had to get out of the Prairies. Too flat; need relief .

Saskatoon- 1 month. Liked it enough (in summer, mind) that I might be able to forgive its Prairieness.

Victoria/Vancouver- visited both in winter and summer. Climate not for me, but mountains and ocean...tempting.

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I lived just off Queen's Park Crescent during my U of T days, then a year on Spadina Crescent. So yes, plenty of trees there.

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Vic residence, aRoused, Trinity, or St. Mike's?

I lived three years in UC residence myself -- Sir Dan's, to be specific. Looking out the quad-side windows you could imagine yourself at some Oxbridge college (which was no doubt the idea when UC was built).

the river valley is spectacular and can't be beat by anthing similar in canada

I've also lived in Berlin and that is a spectacular town with all kinds of different distrcts and vibes and feelings.

As an ex-pat, I tend to trumpet its hig qualities loudly, especially when in the company of ex-Calgarians.

I don't know if all my stats are still accurate, but I like to remind people that E-town has more bookstores per capita than any other Canadian city, more festivals than any other city in the world, and the longest undeveloped urban river valley in North America. And we're better for it, I think.

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Bigger than crummy tory-towns like Peterborough and Saint John which get far more attention than they're due.

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Excuse me?

Peterborough: Walter Pitman, M.P., 1960 - 62, M.P.P. 1967 - 71. Gillian Sandeman, M.P.P. 1975 - 77. Jenny Carter, M.P.P. 1990 - 95.

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Southpark is a cartoon

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Are you sure? I always thought it was where the weeble people live.

1) Winnipeg: Home Sweet Home. Everytime I return here it's like crawling back into the womb. No other city will make me feel quite as at home as Winnipeg - probably because the people are so open and friendly and there's a small-town feel to it that I find endearing. It may not have the glitz and glamour of other centres, but all the things people have listed about Toronto and Vancouver can be found in Winnipeg (well, except mountains) if one looks a little bit. And the cost of living simply can't be beat - even with a salary adjusted down from Toronto/Vancouver. There are three big downsides, however: winter (although you get used to it), horrible public transit, and a relative lack of job opportunities for young professionals. Hence why I ended up moving away.

2) Victoria: I moved here to attend UVic. Probably number two on the list after Winnipeg. Again, won't be staying long-term (probably) because of better job opportunities elsewhere, but again if there was a chance to stay I'd grab it. Kind of a nice small-town community feel without being parochial or stifling. An authentic laid-back vibe, as opposed to the forced laid-back vibe of Vancouver. Gorgeous year round, basically. Fantastic climate, only gets really prolonged rainy periods in December-January. Good mix of neighbourhoods, lots of good restaurants, fantastic selection of pubs, decent public transit. Drawbacks are again lack of job opportunities for young professionals (unless you really, really want to work for the province) and somewhat high cost of living relative to the size of the city and salaries.

3) Vancouver: Lots to recommend it. Probably the hands-down best natural setting for a city in North America. Cyclist-friendly, decent public transit, and fairly densely populated (in Vancouver proper). Lots of funky neighbourhoods. Great restaurants, decent but not fantastic nightlife. Two words: Stanley Park. A lot more job opportunities in my field than smaller centres (hence why I'm living here now). Exciting 'big-city' feel.
Downsides to Vancouver: the 'big-city' feel cuts both ways - people seem to be much more self-absorbed and less friendly here, and everyone always seems to be busy so that going out for drinks is a huge production that must be organized at least a week in advance. I have found that it's a lot harder to make friends in Vancouver than in Winnipeg or Victoria. I also find the laid-back attitudes here kind of forced and phony. Cost of living is also a big minus - even with an adjusted salary. Climate can be hit-and-miss.

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Toronto is definately not high on my list, but I will not fully condemn it until I have been their. But its too damn big

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Am I missing something or doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous to venture an opinion of any kind on a city you have never visited a single time???

I love Toronto (for reasons that have been well-enumerated above), love Montreal (no explanation necessary)and love Halifax and St. John's since these Atlantic cities are friendly, quaint and have stuff going on way out of proportion to their relatively small populations.

Vancouver has nice scenery but it seems like everyone you meet there has a huge chip on their shoulder. The only emotion they exhibit is snotty resentment of everything (odd how people could live in such a beautiful place and be so full of bitterness).

I have been to Winnipeg many times and it is one city that just defeats me. I just can't find a single redeeming feature about that city. I keep going back and I keep exploring the city hoping to find what it about that city that makes people from there so loyal. I give up, I just can't find it. It is the Indianapolis of the north with not even an Indy 500 once a year. Flat and featureless, a run-down inner city full of pawn shops and derelicts, horrendous weather and virtually no major sights of any kind. If I had to live there I'd consider suicide.

I wouldn't choose ANY city in Canada to live in. Human habitation wasn't meant to extend this far north. The Earth's main source of heat is 93 million miles away, and life in Canada serves as a regular reminder of that fact.

I have lived in Saskatoon most of my life. Hate it. Except that my family's here. The winters are hell. Like the Ninth Circle in Dante's Inferno. Sasktoon is a "family-oriented" city, which means that there's lots to do if you are 8 years old. But I'm not 8 years old. The people here are friendly, but dull and unoriginal. The arts scene is vibrant but small, and not exactly replete with the world's greatest performers. The gay scene is horrifically small, sort of like a small town, just with better fashion sense

Victoria. I lived outside of Victoria for two years in the rainforest. Beautiful, green, clean air, has several vegetarian restaurants. I agree that Victoria the city is nothing special in terms of arts and culture. But I greatly appreciated being so close to the rainforest. I found I was able to develop spiritually there quite easily. Who needs to go to the AGO to see the latest exhibit of Picasso works when the ocean and forest and stars can provide enough beauty for 800 reincarnations?

I find it much harder to bond with nature here in ToonTown. Mother Nature in Saskatchewan always seems to be a hostile force: either bitterly cold or rife with mosquitoes. Nevertheless, I would probably never move back to Victoria, since I have nasty visions of ending up drown under a 800 foot earthquake-induced tidal wave.

I have visited Toronto for extended periods. Weird. Hard to grasp living somewhere so big. I mean, it makes a person feel so small and inconsequential.
The great advantage of TO is that one could regularly go to lectures and book readings by major authors and intellectuals. But you can get just as much bang (for a lesser cost-of-living buck) in Montreal. I think TO is great to visit, though. Spend three weeks, go to an Ethiopian restaurant, then a Burmese, then a Nepali, then a Chilean, and then get the hell out before the summertime smog sets in.

Saskatoon: city of bridges. Okay for my 0-13 years, but I think it still has too much of it's temperance colony roots for me to stay there long.

Chemainus: The Little Town that Did. Beat New York in a British Airways contest for the best community revitalization project. Our vacation property is on Thetis Island which is accessible by ferry from Chemainus.

Victoria: Newly wed and Nearly dead is still very appropriate. Very windy. Too touristy for my liking.

Toronto: Hitchhiked there in 1985 looking for work and stayed 5 years. While I enjoyed my time there, it was too far from family to be home.

New Westminster: Great commuter city for people living in Greater Vancouver. We were on the wrong side of sixth ave. Next door was a dealer, then a hooker, then a dealer. Hell Angels bought a house across the street (very intimidating to bring noise and vicious dog complaints to).

Steveston (neighborhood of Richmond). We are very happy here. The city motto is still very true: 'Island City by Nature'. While it borders Vancouver it still retains its small town feel. For example the annual Santa Claus event involves a drunk fisherman riding in the back of a pick-up distributing candy out of a bucket. It has bike paths to most destinations, while being one of the most disabled friendly communities in Canada (helps that it is basically a sandbar).

There may be political uncertainty (?) but there is also political vibrancy, and huge demonstrations against the war, and for labour and women's issues. Not nearly so much French-English tension as a generation ago, and a far more interesting ethnic mix.

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Originally posted by Pogo:
New Westminster: Great commuter city for people living in Greater Vancouver. We were on the wrong side of sixth ave. Next door was a dealer, then a hooker, then a dealer. Hell Angels bought a house across the street (very intimidating to bring noise and vicious dog complaints to).

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Shit, Pogo, that sounds familiar! I lived in New West about ten years ago, and had the exact same experience. Maybe we were neighbours.

Still, such negatives aside, I did enjoy living there. New West feels more like an actual, livable community than most of the Lower Mainland -- maybe cuz it's one of the few places in Greater Vancouver which was designed before the automobile. You can easily walk to everything you need. As opposed to places like Burnaby or Richmond, which are utterly car-oriented.

Plus rents are (relatively) cheap -- doesn't New West have one of the highest renter populations in the country?