For the second time in ten months, the Stanley Cup has been dragged off to Kandahar to boost the morale of the troops. Also along for the trip were Peter McKay, several former NHL players, the band Blue Rodeo, and others (I just shredded my copy of Lost Together).

quote:

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"It’s the Holy Grail. There is such a special air about the Stanley Cup," MacKay said before boarding a military flight to return to Canada. "The cup symbolizes what every young Canadian dreams of. Some of the soldiers on the base probably did not sleep last night." CanWest

---

[ 02 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

quote:

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Six civilians have been killed during a raid by US-led coalition forces in south-eastern Afghanistan, government officials and villagers said.

Two children and a woman were killed in the raid in a village in the Khost province, according to a spokesman for the local governor. ...

Reports from Muqibel village in Khost where the latest offensive happened said villagers chanted angry slogans against US President George W Bush after the killings.

---

Currently, combat troops go to Kandahar for six months before being replaced by a new "rotation". Now there is talk of extending that to nine months or even a year. U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan currently are on a 15-month shift, although the U.S. is considering reducing it to a year.

Longer deployments will likely reduce morale. But there's an upside as well:

quote:

---

Longer deployments would mean a greater financial reward, since troops enjoy generous tax benefits for the time they are deployed. - Star

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
Now that the Canadian participation in the assault on Afghanistan has been prolonged for another three years, the brass are starting to wonder how they are going to find enough soldiers to keep up the troop commitment.

Currently, combat troops go to Kandahar for six months before being replaced by a new "rotation". Now there is talk of extending that to nine months or even a year. U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan currently are on a 15-month shift, although the U.S. is considering reducing it to a year.

Longer deployments will likely reduce morale. But there's an upside as well:

---

quote:

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Afghanistan is being deprived of $10bn (£5bn) of promised aid, and 40% of the money that has been delivered was spent on corporate profits and consultancy fees, according to a hard-hitting report by aid agencies released today.

The failure of western donors to keep their promises, compounded by corruption and inefficiency, is undermining the prospects for peace in Afghanistan, it warns.

Civil aid programmes are a fraction of what is spent by America, Britain and other countries on military operations there. Much of the money earmarked for aid is diverted to political or military purposes.

---

5 US Coprs are making a "killing", eh?!

This piece of the article:

quote:

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For example, a road between the centre of Kabul and the international airport cost over $2.3m per kilometre in US aid money, at least four times the average cost of building a road in Afghanistan, today's report says.

Afghanistan's biggest donor, USAid, allocates nearly half its funds to five big contractors. The US government has awarded major contracts, some worth hundreds of millions of dollars, to KBR, the Louis Berger group, Chemonics International, Bearing Point, and Dyncorp International, according to a study by the US-based Centre for Public Integrity quoted in today's report.

Most full-time expatriate consultants working for private companies in Afghanistan cost between $250,000 and $500,000 a year, including salary, allowances and associated costs, the report adds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Too bad the actual report itself is not available on line.

---

The following figures from the report represent firstly, the aid committed 2002-2008; the second figure is the actual aid distributed:

quote:

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(all figures in $millions)

US | 10,400 | 5,022
European Commission | 1,721 | 1,074
World Bank | 1,604 | 853
UK | 1,455 | 1,266
Germany | 1,226 | 768
Canada | 779 | 731
Japan | 1,410 | 1393
Italy | 424 | 424
Netherlands | 493 | 407
Norway | 399 | 277
France | 109 | 80
Spain | 63 | 26

---

See also: The Senlis Council report on CIDA in Kandahar, August, 2007.

Who is Receiving Canada's Phantom Aid?

[ 25 March 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

[ 25 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Guess what country just announced they were sending a contingent to support NATO troops in Afghanistan? China. The plot sickens.

---

Follow the oil:

http://www.oilmoney.priceofoil.org/federalRaceGraph.php

quote:

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Agree with extending the mission: 37%

Disagree with extending the mission: 58%

Don't Know: 5%

1045 Canadians surveyed on March 17-18; MOE 3% 19/20

---

Duffy interview clip, beginning at about 1:50

ETA: Here's the full Angus Reid report.

Here are the reactions from MacKay and Layton:

quote:

---

Canadian defence minister Peter MacKay declared: "(The decision) sends a very strong signal of consensus from our country to our troops and shows confidence in everything they are doing. (...) What you saw in the House, the expressions whether they be through votes or what was said in the gallery, are expressions of a country that has a healthy, vibrant democracy."

NDP leader Jack Layton expressed disappointment, saying, "We have not supported the notion of prolonged warfare. We’ve been there six years and this is going to add three more years. (...) I never thought that we’d see an extension."

---

[ 27 March 2008: Message edited by: sgm ]

Survey reveals Kandahar fighters know next to nothing about Canada or U.S., contradicting view Taliban are sophisticated terrorists

quote:

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Canadian politicians and military officials often make public statements that suggest the Taliban monitor political trends in Ottawa and choose to attack at politically sensitive moments: General Rick Hillier, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff, raised the possibility that a suicide bombing that killed more than 100 people in Kandahar province in February may have been connected with debates in the House of Commons about the future of the mission.

But a Western expert who reviewed The Globe's video footage said the kind of worldliness described by Gen. Hillier isn't the most likely explanation.

"Those [insurgents] making decisions are more sophisticated than those you are interviewing, so there is some chance of this being plausible," the expert said. "But I think they're working to their own calendar, not ours." Three fighters in the survey didn't recognize the name of U.S. President George W. Bush, and another mispronounced his name as "Bukh," suggesting he wasn't familiar with the word.

---

quote:

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SHUKRULLAH, student: I love watching educational programmes and music programmes on TV. TV has helped me understand mathematics better and has taught me some English.

---

of course tv was banned under the Taliban as well as sports

quote:

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The one change that has happened is that I have become a football trainer at school. I always played football, but now I teach the game to the youngsters.

---

Conditions are far from perfect and many governments officials are corrupt but do the Afghanis really want a return to the Taliban rule.

quote:

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HAJI ABDULLAH SALEH, village elder: The Taleban is the biggest threat to the future of Afghanistan. They are not powerful enough to topple the government, but they are a big problem. Pakistan and Iran are supporting them with arms and funds.

Haji Abdullah Saleh - the Taleban are bad for Islam. They don't want the country to stand on its own feet, prosper and become peaceful. They destroyed most of the country, and their legacy is all about burning schools, gardens and houses. This is unacceptable and it is against Islamic law.

---

They are proud people and don't trust that foriegn countries have their best interests at heart but this is hardly limited to the NATO countries.

quote:

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SHAISTA: I am in grade seven in school. I want to reach my dream and still wish to become a doctor and help my people.

---

quote:

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My father and other people say girls don't go to school, only boys do. But I want to continue, study medicine and graduate. It is my dream to become a doctor.

---

quote:

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I did a month-long training course last year, conducted by a Dutch NGO on how to keep cows and livestock.

I passed the training, borrowed some money and bought a cow. I collect fodder for the cow from the gardens.

I sell the milk in the market to buy sugar, tea and basic food.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
of course tv was banned under the Taliban as well as sports

---

Most of the problems detailed in that article have nothing to do with the Taliban:

Increased corruption
Lack of water
Poor education facilities
No jobs
Inflation
Poverty
Electricity shortages
Puppet government
Oppression of women

quote:

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Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:

regarding sports - nice comment - i thinking more about just kicking a ball around, you'd be suprised a little diversion can make in the lives of people

---

Yeah, isn't that why the Romans had gladiators?

And speaking of diversion, isn't that why the invaders and their puppets brought back poppy cultivation after the Taliban had banned it?

A little diversion certainly makes the hard times easier to bear.

[ 29 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
... you'd sacrifice the lot of them to deafeat the Evil invaders.

---

No, you're very very mixed up.

Our country is sacrificing our young people to go murder and enslave innocents abroad. Anyone who does not oppose that is complicit.

As for the Afghans, they are lining up to get the opportunity to liberate their land and their people. It's not me sacrificing them. You are indeed mixed up.

quote:

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Yr heart is as cold as any Neo-Con, it's all about yr poltical cause, you cry crocodile tears about civilian deaths because their deaths are advantageous to yr cause.

---

I don't think so. What do you think my cause is? Victory for the Taliban? I understand you feel good to see people having a little bit of fun while their country is destroyed. I don't begrudge them that little bit of fun. But my aim is to get the foreigners out, so that the people can solve their own problems. If that means taking a brief break from dog fighting, so be it.

ETA: In fact, Ibelongtonoone, if you're truly concerned about people being deprived from the simple joys of life that help them escape from the prevailing misery, I would be much more concerned about threats closer to home:

Up drinking age to 21

[ 29 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

I have serious reservations about the occupation in Afghanistan but pulling out all troops would hand the country to the Taliban (I'm sure even you might admit) would inflict much greater suffering and hardships on the afghan people.

No need to list what life was like for the people of Afghanistan before the Soviet invasion compared to life under the rule of the Taliban. ( even life in North Korea wasn't a brutal)

Not that you really care, you see the world in B&W just like george bush as polar opposites as you might be.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
I have serious reservations about the occupation in Afghanistan but pulling out all troops would hand the country to the Taliban...

---

Would Afghanistan be "handed over" to the Taliban if foreign troops withdrew? Do you have any specific information to back this up?

From everything I've read, the Taliban are nowhere near being close to seizing power. And if they had enough manpower, firepower, and popular support to take over, how are a few thousand imperialist troops going to stop it?

The Soviets couldn't stop it, with over 100,000 troops; NATO has less than half that number in Afghanistan.

The Taliban are only a real issue in the south, where Canadians are deployed. Most areas of the country are free of the threat of a Taliban "takeover".

Have a look at this site, and words by AFGHANS, in particular Afghan WOMEN, and then if you would like tell us what you think.

quote:

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Reality of life in so-called "liberated" Afghanistan

---

1) Hand the country over to the USA

2) Hand the country over to the Taliban

Remind I don't think I know it all and I don't believe I said anywhere that things were just wonderful there know.

You actually think these "Northern Alliance" people are nice, maybe?

I remember some nice colour photos of those guys castrating a captured Taliban guy during the invasion. Laughing and joking about it too.

[ 29 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
I tend to think of individuals not much different than me just trying to live their lives with a little bit of happiness and keeping their dreams for a better life alive in some small way.

---

If the people of Afghanistan really wanted us and the U.S. and NATO there, the war would have been long over - six years ago. The fact that it's not shows that these Afghans haven't changed much over the centuries. They always hated foreign invaders lording it over them, and they always fought and defeated them - even the most powerful in the world. They defeated the British in three wars. They defeated the Soviet occupiers. And they will certainly, undoubtedly defeat this fresh crop.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
...They dream of freedom. And they're not so inferior to you that they need your help to realize those dreams.

---

So this won't get us anywhere.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
I have no problem if Canada withdrew our troops tommorow. I just don't think it would make life any better in Afghanistan

---

It would definitely make life better in Canada.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
What confuses me is - On what do base your assumption that things will get better if NATO troops pulled out? or is it just a anti-war principal thing for you - that in no possible way could foreign troops help return a war torn country to a more peaceful prosperous country - (pre 1979 Afghanistan for example) so they must leave - damn the consequences.

---

And they are the same tired arguments that were used 40 years ago about the war in Vietnam: if western forces withdraw, South Vietnam will be handed over to the Communists. As if the Vietnamese themselves had nothing to say in the matter, and the US had everything to say.

Well, guess what, the Communists did take over, and the sun and moon didn't fall from the sky. There are those of course who think that a few more tens of thousands of US soldiers' lives (and a few hundred thousand more Vietnamese lives) would have been worth throwing away in order to prevent that from happening. Fortunately, their desires did not prevail.

It's not up to Canada to make things get "better" in Afghanistan at the point of a gun. Let the Afghans decide for themselves what is "better" for them. Who knows, if given the chance, maybe they will decide that ditching the current US proxy government of Karzai would make them more "peaceful and prosperous" - the same proxy government that NATO is fighting to keep in power, using your and my tax dollars.

quote:

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The Saudis and Pakistanis, the Taliban's chief backers, quickly recognized the new government. During the entire taliban reign, only one other country - The United Arab Emirates - recognized their rule as legitimate.

---

quote:

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40% of the doctors, half of the government, and seven out of ten teachers were women. Under the Taliban, many of them would become beggars.

---

quote:

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they forbade kite flying, dog racing. Trained pigeons were slaughtered ... according to the taliban penial code (unclean things were banned including cinematography, any equipment or instrument that produces the joys of music, chess, televisons

---

and then there's the former place of "justice" and there's what it's used for now.

Afghanistan: Kabul Football Club

(great film by the way)

oh and there is this

fear

But I guess I agree that we don't really "need" to be doing what our troops are doing. It would be hard for things to get much worse for the people of that brutal and beautiful country.

[ 29 March 2008: Message edited by: Ibelongtonoone ]

The reality is this is war against peasants and farmers. Get with it.

These people know as little about you, as you know about them apparently. More importantly, these people had as much to do with that, as YOU did, possibly less.

[ 30 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

It was Bin Laden and Al-Zahwari who set up base there, as well, the Taliban did not originate from Afghanistan at all.

I have no problem with the Nato troops withdrawing, but don't try to make heroes out of those religous fanatics, the draconian, cruel and joyless version of Islam they want to impose on the country is a gross distorion of the religion and any defence of it, is as bad as defending Nazism as a valid way of running a state.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
So long as they only mistreat their own citizens, it should be hands off. Is that the consensus?

---

That's what those silly old United Nations and international law say. But what do they know?

Hell, we could use some U.S. troops here removing our regime and replacing it by one where the legislative and executive branches are separate, as they are in a true democracy.

The U.S. could stand a few invading Chinese divisions, maybe some targetted airstrikes, teaching them the value of universal free health care.

And the European Union could send some ICBMs toward Washington until it repeals the death penalty.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
I didn't say they had anything to do with 911 or that they posed any threat to Canada.

It was Bin Laden and Al-Zahwari who set up base there, as well, the Taliban did not originate from Afghanistan at all.

I have no problem with the Nato troops withdrawing, but don't try to make heroes out of those religous fanatics, the draconian, cruel and joyless version of Islam they want to impose on the country is a gross distorion of the religion and any defence of it, is as bad as defending Nazism as a valid way of running a state.

So long as they only mistreat their own citizens, it should be hands off. Is that the consensus?

---

The only Afghan government including the current one to provide real education for women and real jobs was the socialist one that NATO and the US in particular opposed by arming fanatical whack jobs like both the Northern Alliance and the Taliban. Peace can never come from a foreign occupation. If the US had not armed the wackos the people of Afghanistan might have the government they deserve today instead the Soviets invaded to protect a government that was in fact delivering on education and schools and freedom for women. Now obviously this invasion pissed off a lot of Afghans especially the ones that didn't want rights for women or education for girls. Those are the people the west chose to arm with sophisticated weapons to fight the Soviet invasion. We caused the resulting carnage by arming assholes.

You would have no problem with a facist state ethincally cleansing it's jewish population then, so long as they don't attack anyone or carry out any genocidal acts outside their own borders?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
kropotkin

by saying NATO and the US armed the Taliban, you reveal yr ignorance. Stick to facts, do some reading on the history and don't just make shit up.

---

quote:

---

Taliban Origins
The Taliban originated when the CIA with ISI (the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate) recruited radical Muslims from around the world to fight with the Afghan mujahadeen against the Soviet Union. The United States wanted to demonstrate that the entire Muslim world was fighting against the USSR along with Afghans and American benefactors. And in 1980, Osama bin Laden arrived in Afghanistan, bringing funds from the reactionary Saudi Arabian ruling class to the mujahadeen. When the CIA and ISI decided to train thousands of Muslims from around the world to fight in Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden was one of the key organizers in this effort. The author estimates that after 1982 more than 100,000 Muslims from dozens of countries received political or military training in the CIA-backed camps of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

---

At least three Soviet infantry regiments were sent into Kabul well before the 1978 invasion in order start the preparations of invasion.

The Soviets (as well as western interests) were only interested in Afghanistan for its strategic and natural resources.

quote:

---

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

[SNIP}

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

---

President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski bragging about supporting the Taliban.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
by saying NATO and the US armed the Taliban, you reveal yr ignorance. Stick to facts, do some reading on the history and don't just make shit up.

---

You definitely have your shoe on the wrong foot with this one, and it may not even be a shoe.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
The Soviet puppet government was collapsing long before western interests started to arm Afghan Mujahideen.

At least three Soviet infantry regiments were sent into Kabul well before the 1978 invasion in order start the preparations of invasion.

The Soviets (as well as western interests) were only interested in Afghanistan for its strategic and natural resources.

Education and modernization of the country is a bi-product.

---

Again from the horses mouth:

quote:

---

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

[SNIP}

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

---

President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski bragging about supporting the Taliban.

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
kropotkin

by saying NATO and the US armed the Taliban, you reveal yr ignorance.

---

Both countries invested heavily into Afghanistan, both building large airfields (Bagram and Kandahar), and roads (Hwy 1 and Hwy 4)

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

There is no juxtaposition available between those actions of decades ago to today's actions. Nor is there any room for historical "investments" in bolstering support for today's occupation and destruction.

---

The Taliban are not and never did orginate from Afghanistan - they were based on the Saudi Religious police and trained by Saudis. They were made up of mostly Pakistani and foriegn fighters.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Of course I am serious webgear, and truthfully because of this thread, I am beginning to see a need for anti-imperialist first principles.

---

I believe you need to educate yourself. The last 300 years of Afghan history is all connected to the events of today.

Everything plays apart in today’s events, culture, language, blood feuds, tribal/clan/family groupings, everything that happen in the past reflects what happens today.

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

have you read these

"The Looming Tower" by Lawernce Wright

"Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid

quote:

---

The Taliban, which springs from the Sunni branch of Islam, began a genocidal campaign designed to wipe out Shiite Muslims from much of Afghanistan. ...

---

Here is the left wing position (or one of them)

Laxer citing Mark Twain

Here is a right wing position:

David Warren on the real reasons...

Western politicians will spend 30 billion on a pointless decades long exercise just to prove they weren't wrong.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
The Mujahadeen who fought the soviets and the Taliban are not and have never been the same group, the same people nor did they have the same goals.

The Taliban are not and never did orginate from Afghanistan - they were based on the Saudi Religious police and trained by Saudis. They were made up of mostly Pakistani and foriegn fighters.

---

If you had actually read Ahmed Rashid's book "Taliban" you would never had made this statement. If you have, I suggest you do it again. The Taliban (students) are 100% Afghan nationals despite whatever aid they were given. Moreso, they were not made up of "Pakistant and foreign fighters," but Afghan nationals living in Pakistani refugee camps, where they came under the influence of a very simple Muslim dogma that is a mix of Sauid Wahabist ideas, and traditional home grown Afghan interpretations of the Qu'ran called Pashtunwhali.

So says Rashid.

Furthermore he goes on a length about the "CIA-ISI pipeline" (his phrase), so its impossible to believe you read this book in detail given that you asserted earlier that the US never funded the Taliban.

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:

I believe you need to educate yourself. The last 300 years of Afghan history is all connected to the events of today.

Everything plays apart in today’s events, culture, language, blood feuds, tribal/clan/family groupings, everything that happen in the past reflects what happens today.

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

---

quote:

---

We are not really there to build a democratic Afghan state, in which girls can go to school. So far as we are contributing to that, it is only a means to an end...

..Under the pressure of really needing results, the U.S. military has mastered the old colonial art of making alliances -- solid alliances based on tangible mutual interests -- with local tribal lords...

...Yet if we leave, the insurgents return. This is because Iraq and Afghanistan are not planets of another sun. The Iraqi insurgency is fed by remote sponsors in Syria, Iran, and elsewhere. Similarly in Afghanistan, our troops can only chase to the sanctuaries the Islamists now enjoy in Pakistan's Pashtun and Baluchi regions. And as I've been writing in this space recently, the threat Islamists present to Pakistan itself is more worrying than the threat they present to Afghanistan. For Pakistan is a full-fledged nuclear power, and if it falls, the hellgates open.

What I'm saying is, regardless of who is in the mood, a withdrawal from Afghanistan would be a catastrophic mistake. Instead, sooner better than later, we must extend Anbar methods all the way to Kashmir

---

Now this is the conservative position put most strongly.

Here is what Laxer cites from Mark Twain

quote:

---

n 1900, Mark Twain wrote a warning about phony humanitarianism that rings true today. “I said to myself,” wrote Twain about the American intervention in the Philippines a century ago “here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves.”

“But I have thought some more, since then…and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem”

“And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land.”

---

... so the point is that why is it a "higher morality" to feel a moral obligation here?

The only time we have been actually to aid such projects is when there has been consensus between the disputing parties that they would like us to mediate their disputes, to observe, and to dampen tensions, and otherwise to aid the establishment of protocols of agreement between disputing parties.

In Afghanistan we have made the mistake of becoming party to the dispute.

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Or suppose that by supporting the efforts even if the primary objective is something else our concerns are answered "collaterally" ought we do it?

David Warren a rabid supporter of the efforts there says of the Taliban, "To this we can add their success, more recently, in getting the old radical, secular Left -- in both the Muslim world and in the West -- to make common cause with them on all the old Marxist fronts: anti-bourgeois, anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian, and so forth."

So there you have it. The "cold war" is not over, just reconfigured...It's the conservative reflex.

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: DonnyBGood ]

quote:

---

David Warren a rabid supporter of the efforts there says of the Taliban, "To this we can add their success, more recently, in getting the old radical, secular Left -- in both the Muslim world and in the West -- to make common cause with them on all the old Marxist fronts: anti-bourgeois, anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian, and so forth."

---

Why not add sexist to the list of the "leftist" cannon as well?

Does this stuff need to be debunked, or should I just leave it up to you not to volunteer this kind of excrement for public discussion?

What is the point you are trying to make? That the people who support this action are fundamentally ignorant, or prone to distorting the truth for hysterical effect?

[ 31 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

A German resident held by the U.S. for almost five years tells 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley that Americans tortured him in many ways - including hanging him from the ceiling for five days early in his captivity [2001] when he was in Kandahar, Afghanistan. Even after determining he was not a terrorist, Murat Kurnaz says, the torture continued. - Source

---

[ 01 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

quote:

---

Why are you quoting this "fellow travellers" bullshit? Do you feel more enlightened reading it? Should I? Is antisemetism some how linked to the leftist cause in some inextricable way? Do you want me to start listing communist and leftist Jews?

Why not add sexist to the list of the "leftist" cannon as well?

---

Cueball, you misunderstand. Are you a fellow traveller with this guy? I'm not. My point is that the basic neoliberal argument is not based in any factual threat that the Taliban poses to world security should it take over Afghanistan. It is based on the organizational needs of the military industrial complex to have an enemy.

What is going on there is a spectacle for the benefit of the media and security establishments.

The assertion by this guy is that there is a risk and that this is good enough reason to fight an endless war. This is utter propoganda.

Thus the need to roll all criticism up into a big ball and label it something.

Liberals pretend that there is some real need for the troops to be there, that they are doing some good. But there is a good argument that they are making things worse.

So why did the Liberals support an extension of the mission? The answer is simple. The supported the extension of the mission for purely domestic reasons. A weak leader did not want to risk an election on the issue.

If I'm reading this correctly, then on the one hand we have the Neo-cons alleging that all those who oppose Canada's (U.S., UK, etc.)occupation in Afghanistan are somehow being "fellow travellers" with the Taliban, and by extension, Al-Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah.

"Rolled up into one ball" as the writer put it.

This is obviously silly.

On the other hand we have many "liberals" (including to some extent NDPers) who support the occupation, or at least sympathize with it.

I'm thinking of Jack Layton's support of Rick Hillier's "scum bag" remark...

That truly freaked me out.

Are these "liberals" therefore "fellow travellers" of the Neo-cons?

I consider myself extreme left-wing (not necessarily enlightened) and I do not consider the enemy of my enemy my friend.
However, for the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union I'm seeing U.S. imperialism finally being beaten back. I seem to be, vicariously, fighting my class war via Al-Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah. At least on a simplistic emotional level.

When Israel invaded Lebanon, the last time, my 14 year old daughter looked at me askew when she caught me doing a muffled and supportive "Hezbollah, Hezbollah, Hezbollah" chant under my breath...

Part of it has to do with the world unfolding EXACTLY as the left feared: the increasing clamp down on civil rights, never-ending war, economic and environmental meltdown, growing poverty...while at the same time, despite the Seattle, Quebec City or Genoa actions - despite massive anti-war marches and fights with cops, being unable to meaningfully intervene.

Yet here we have indigenous people sucessfully pushing back/fighting back against a military power that has the ability to destroy the world many, many times, over - often with rocks, old artillery shells and ancient AK-47s.

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Originally posted by DonnyBGood:
So why did the Liberals support an extension of the mission? The answer is simple. The supported the extension of the mission for purely domestic reasons. A weak leader did not want to risk an election on the issue.

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Is there a scenario where the Conservatives would oppose the war? The only one I can think of would be if the US and Nato opposed it under some future administration, that is, where the wisdom was received.

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Originally posted by DonnyBGood:
If the Liberals could win an election supporting the war they would support it. If they could win the election being opposed to the war they would oppose it.

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Yes, I think you have it. Or just as plainly:

The Liberal Creedo --
All Good People Are Bad
(except those who support us)

All Bad People Are Good
(except those who oppose us)
...And vice versa

[ 02 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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A Canadian soldier was killed Friday when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device in southern Afghanistan, the military said.

Pte. Terry John Street, 24, of Gatineau, Que. (formerly Hull), was killed at about 6:15 p.m. local time in the Panjwaii district of Kandahar province ...

[Said mouthpiece Laroche:] "While we honour our comrade's memory, our commitment remains firm, and our resolve unshaken to accomplish our task of helping the government of Afghanistan, its people and especially its children, to find the same joy and freedom we often take for granted in our own country."

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Originally posted by DonnyBGood:
If they could win the election being opposed to the war they would oppose it.

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The Star is running an article today by two scholars
who apparently support a troop buildup at the same time as they are highly critical of the mission and the policy objectives over the short term.

Now what kind of nonsense is that?

Read the article if you like does it not seem completely conflicted?

2011 and all that...

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Originally posted by DonnyBGood:
Now what kind of nonsense is that?

Read the article if you like does it not seem completely conflicted?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I'm not concerned by the conficts and contradictions of these "war experts". I'm more concerned with ending the war - something they have no interest in doing.

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And these so-called experts are students at Oxford, eager to please their masters no doubt:

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Other countries, such as the U.K., may provide an example. They have explored alternate means of encouraging departments to work together when managing complex peacebuilding missions.

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Who stands to benefit most from endless international conflicts but war profiteers?

Who are the biggest arms manufacturers in the world?

US is number one...

Canada's arms trade has increased by about 250% since 2000 an is twelfth on the list.

Arms manufacturers

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Originally posted by DonnyBGood:
I personally don't think there is a "war" going on there. What there is going on is criminal activity sponsored by international agents who are interested in creating violent conflict.

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Kandahar student:

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The poor security in this area is because of the Kandaharis who come from the rural areas and visit the centre during the day.

These people dwell in villages and they are strict. They are willing to live their lives by the Taleban rules. They form part of the security threat. ... So I have had to change my figure, my style of talking and walking to fit in with the look of the rural area.

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Ghazni journalist:

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There are American troops stationed in the centre of the province on the outskirts of the city. It is very difficult to see what development work they have undertaken. ...

Foreign troops do very little in the outlying districts. When they do get out of the city, they do not aim to provide security to the people.

They sometimes carry out unpopular operations. At night they search homes for suspected terrorists or foreigners.

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Balkh television producer:

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International forces are needed and I would vote for them to stay for longer. They are a very important part of the area.

Six years ago when the Taleban was here, I didn't feel secure. I was not allowed to even let my hair grow. That was banned. I couldn't wear jeans. I wasn't even allowed to go in a university.

Now I have a job, I have almost graduated from university. Before I couldn't do anything I wanted, now we have television and I even produce a programme.

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Man from Herat:

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The position of international community in general and foreign forces in particular is not at all clear to me. There is neither a clear strategy on fighting the so-called terrorism nor on assisting Afghan government.

The Taleban insurgency is not the major concern for people. It is general lawlessness that has put people on high alert. Everyone is so stressed.

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[ 09 April 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Dozens of Afghan men who were previously held by the United States at Bagram Air Base and Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, are now being tried here in secretive Afghan criminal proceedings based mainly on allegations forwarded by the American military.

The prisoners are being convicted and sentenced to as much as 20 years’ confinement in trials that typically run between half an hour and an hour, said human rights investigators who have observed them. One early trial was reported to have lasted barely 10 minutes, an investigator said.

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The prosecutions are based in part on a security law promulgated in 1987, during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Witnesses do not appear in court and cannot be cross-examined. There are no sworn statements of their testimony.

Instead, the trials appear to be based almost entirely on terse summaries of allegations that are forwarded to the Afghan authorities by the United States military. Afghan security agents add what evidence they can, but the cases generally center on events that sometimes occurred years ago in war zones that the authorities may now be unable to reach.

“These are no-witness paper trials that deny the defendants a fundamental fair-trial right to challenge the evidence and mount a defense,” said Sahr MuhammedAlly, a lawyer for the advocacy group Human Rights First who has studied the proceedings. “So any convictions you get are fundamentally flawed.”

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Amnesty International has revealed today that people charged under anti-terrorism legislation in Turkey continue to face unending trials with some people still detained after more than a decade.

In its report, Turkey: Justice delayed and denied, the organization points out that such trials often rely on past evidence obtained through torture.

"Unfair trials continue to blight Turkey's human rights record. A look at the prolonged and flawed trials of those charged under anti-terrorism legislation provides a striking indication of the extent of the failure of justice in Turkey today," said Nicola Duckworth, Director of the Europe and Central Asia Programme at Amnesty International.

"The Turkish government professes its commitment to eradicating torture, yet it is shocking to discover that evidence extracted through such methods continues to be admitted in the special Heavy Penal Courts and judges are still refusing to throw it out."

Those charged under anti-terrorism legislation are brought to trial before special Heavy Penal Courts, which replaced the State Security Courts in June 2004. However, the same pattern of unfair trial procedures continues:
People charged as far back as 1993 are still behind bars having been denied an effective defence or genuine retrial, even where the European Court of Human Rights has ruled on their case and found Turkey in violation of its fair trial obligations;
Judges and prosecutors are often the same people who presided over the same cases in the days of the State Security Courts, thus recreating the old pattern of failed justice under the new system;
The right to effective defence is violated by judges who routinely and arbitrarily fail to call witnesses to be brought to testify and be cross-examined by defence lawyers.

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On March 13, the House of Commons voted in favour of the motion to extend Canada’s mission in Afghanistan until the end of 2011. This motion, which incorporated many important elements of the Liberal Party’s policy on Afghanistan, included the need for greater transparency and accountability to Parliament.

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Conservative reaction to Liberal demand for transparency and accountability, April 11:

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OTTAWA - Federal lawyers are attempting to shut down an investigation by the military police complaints commission into the handling of Taliban prisoners captured by Canadian troops in Afghanistan.

Government counsel have asked the Federal Court for a judicial review, claiming the independent commission doesn't have the jurisdiction to "either investigate or hold a hearing into the complaint " filed by Amnesty International Canada and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association.

The two organizations filed a complaint last year with the commission about the military police practice of transferring prisoners to Afghan authorities.

The government's application to halt the police commission's investigation was quietly filed Friday in Federal Court.

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Amnesty International (AI) has criticised Czech arms deliveries to Afghanistan and lists the Czech Republic among the biggest NATO exporters of military equipment to Afghanistan in 2004-2006, along with the United States and Britain, the daily Pravo wrote Wednesday.

According to AI, weapons are abused by "state forces and non-state groups" in Afghanistan.

AI mentions the state of the Afghan police and military and insufficient guarding of arms dumps among the reasons for not exporting arms to the country.

"Until these problems are properly addressed there is no justification for the very high levels of small arms supply by member states of NATO to the Afghanistan government forces," AI says in a written statement.

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Taleban attack kills 11 policemen

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Taleban insurgents have attacked a police post in the southern Afghan province of Kandahar, killing at least 11 policemen, an official has said.

The attack took place in the Arghandab district on Sunday night.

Police vehicles and weapons were also seized by the attackers, the senior police officer said.

In a separate incident, two British members of the Nato force have been killed in an explosion in southern Afghanistan.

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A suicide bomb attack has killed at least 20 people and injured about 30 in the south-west Afghan city of Zaranj, according to officials.

A district police chief and a border reserve police commander were among the dead, said Ghulam Dastgir Azad, governor of Nimroz province. ...

The country is witnessing a surge in violence, with the Taleban fighting the government of President Hamid Karzai and the tens of thousands of foreign troops deployed there. ...

It is thought the Taleban influence has been growing as fighters have moved across the border in Helmand, where they have increasingly been coming under pressure from international forces, ...

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Pakistan envoy held by Taleban

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Pakistan's ambassador to Afghanistan, who went missing in February, has appeared in a video saying he is being held by Taleban militants. ...

In comments translated into Arabic by the TV channel, he said he was being held with his driver and bodyguard "in comfortable conditions and are looked after". ...

Appealing directly to Pakistan's ambassadors in Iran and China and the foreign secretary, he said:

"I urge them to do what they can to keep us alive and fulfil all the Taleban's demands as soon as possible so we can be released and return home, God willing."

A Taleban spokesman said in February that they would exchange him for a Taleban commander captured by Pakistani security forces.

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Afghan President Hamed Karzai survived an assassination attempt at a military ceremony in Kabul on Sunday, but one person was killed and nine others were wounded in the attack.

Taliban insurgents opened fire with automatic weapons, forcing Karzai, as well as government ministers and foreign diplomats, including ambassador Arif Lalani from Canada, to dive for cover.

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The attack occurred at a Mujahedeen Victory Day ceremony, observing the 16th anniversary of Afghanistan mujahedeen fighters' overthrow of President Mohammad Najibullah's Soviet-backed regime.

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Who says the Taliban don't have a sense of humour?

[ 27 April 2008: Message edited by: Jingles ]

Pure Hollywood, the pompous unshaven tin pot dictator straight out of central casting, on parade in his shiny new armoured vehicle, reviewing troops, festooned with feathers, medals, and swords, dressed in period costumes from Dr. Zhivago, while fat diplomats in tails and top hats sweat under the noonday sun and drowse to the bleary brass tones of an awful national anthem. It took only a mortar or two, a few potshots, and the whole surreal fantasy of our silly Afghanistan project quickly disappeared into an absurd slapstick comedy of cowardice, panic and pure pandemonium worthy of a Mel Brooks production.

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Leave Taliban alone, Afghan president tells West

Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, has called on British and American troops to stop arresting Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan, saying that their operations undermined his government's authority and were counter-productive.

The stinging attack, made in an interview with the New York Times published yesterday, is the latest in a series of rows between Western governments with troops in Afghanistan and the elected leader of the country. Western diplomats expressed surprise at the Afghan leader's criticism and the Foreign Office played down the row yesterday.

[snip]

Karzai said he wanted American forces to stop arresting suspected Taliban members and their supporters, saying that fear of arrest and their past mistreatment were discouraging them from coming forward to lay down their arms. 'It has to happen,' he said. 'We have to make sure that when a Talib comes to Afghanistan ... he is safe from arrest by the coalition.'

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The US military and Afghan government say more than 20 Taleban rebels have been killed in fresh fighting in south-eastern Afghanistan.

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First reports from the scene said many of the dead and wounded were soldiers in the Afghan national army.

"Insurgents engaged with small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades," O'Donnell, said. "It appears that when that happened, people went for cover. They [the attackers] snuck a suicide bomber in the midst of the confusion."

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