Out of all the current Leadership Candidates who do you think has the best win the Leadership in December?

I think Gerard Kennedy has the best odds of beating Harper, however. Ignatieff's views are anathema to progressives (re: Afghanistan) while also being offensive to right wingers (re: Carbon Tax). The combination is a candidate who doesn't look like he can gain support in either direction.

Bob Rae has a pretty bad reputation from his stint as premier (some of which is deserved, some of which is not) and would be a serious liability in Ontario.

Dion is the most connected with the Martin and Chretien days which Liberals would do well to bury.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Kennedy is just a vacuous pretty face -

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So Dion or Rae.

There is something about the story of the guy who was hated or down now coming back after "changing".

Dion used to be hated in Quebec, now he is one of the most respected pols there, at least in so far as pundits write. Even the cartoonists who used to draw him as a rat with long ears and a tail have stopped. He is now seen as the hero of Kyoto and as the "rational intellectual" who may have gone against Quebec nationalist orthodoxy, but now in retrospect, all the pundits admit that his open letters to the media about federalism anad against separatism were always polite and well argued and never used abusive language (hint hint). He is seen as intellectually a few light years above Charest and whatever the new PQ leader's name is (whatshisname again?)

Rae went thru the whole NDP government flop thing in Ontario and has been "reborn" as an international mediator, expert on federalism reform, "senior advisor" (Air India etc.), "progressive middle" thinker (where the majority of Canadians have always seemed to be)

Interesting narrative arc for both of them: from defeat to recovery and redemption. Makes for interesting essays. Don't know about the political content, but they would both give the NDP a run for their money.

One has the federalist and Green credentials but still describes the Quebecois as a nation without any hangups or hesitations while arguing against separatism. The other has left Liberalish and international statesman credentials but can argue that he "learned his lesson" an will avoid "bad NDP economic policies" (the population still believes the NDP can't handle the economy).

And neither was involved in the Liberal corruption scandal. Rae was not in the party and Dion is an egghead intellectual from a family of well-known egghead professors and party machines never let intellectuals get anywhere near the money

[ 06 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Quebec, with 75 ridings, has been seen as a key battleground, in part because just three of the 11 candidates appeared to built up sizable support there -- although Mr. Volpe now claims to be the fourth.

Most believe Mr. Ignatieff placed second in recruitment there and Mr. Dion placed third. But Mr. Rae, whose strategy depends on a strong showing in the province, was said to have finished a disappointing fourth there -- and his senior Quebec organizer, Yves Lemire, left the campaign Tuesday

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The other has left Liberalish and international statesman credentials but can argue that he "learned his lesson" an will avoid "bad NDP economic policies" (the population still believes the NDP can't handle the economy).

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Originally posted by johnnie:
Oh, non-sense. People can insult Kennedy if they like, but he actually has some pretty impressive accomplishments. Running two major food banks impresses me at least, and running a notoriously plagued ministry as he did and coming out with endorsements from the Teachers unions is pretty damned impressive as well.

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I am so sick of hearing about Kennedy's food bank initiatives, yes that great, he started some food banks. But is that all he did? Kennedy may be a pretty face and may win some through charisma. But when it comes to being a political actor and someone with a policy base, Kennedy is void. Really what did he accomplish as Education Minister of Ontario, nothing very tangible.

As a card-carrying Liberal who is very active in the leadership process, I can tell you there are many Liberals out there who recognize that Kennedy does not have the political or policy comphension to lead the Liberal party. I have talked to him and tried to address specific policy issues that matter to me. His responses are usually platitudes and big-picture thinking. But he hasn't provided any clear policies or specific approaches he will employ as Liberal leader.

I am absolutely against Kennedy, Rae and Volpe winning the party. They represent the old "sleaze" that us Liberals are trying to move away from.

At the very least they have to address this:

- What is their stand re. devolution of powers to provinces. Martin started the 'asymetric federalism' which is to say sign whatever appeases provinces, one by one. Harper will probably go farther in that direction. How will they distinguish themselves from the CPC?

- They need to define how they will implement Kyoto. Saying "we're for Kyoto" without a plan is a non-starter. Chretien signed us into this without any thought on how to proceed; he could not care less, he was on the way out and it was a way to get one last round of kudos on the world scene. That was 4 years ago and there is still no plan. Get a credible, costed plan or forget about the whole charade!

- Which of the policies put forward by Harper are they going to oppose? To reverse if elected?

None of the leadership candidates seem to grasp that. They are so all over the place it is hard to believe they vie for the same job.

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Originally posted by jfras:

I am so sick of hearing about Kennedy's food bank initiatives, yes that great, he started some food banks. But is that all he did? Kennedy may be a pretty face and may win some through charisma. But when it comes to being a political actor and someone with a policy base, Kennedy is void. Really what did he accomplish as Education Minister of Ontario, nothing very tangible.

As a card-carrying Liberal who is very active in the leadership process, I can tell you there are many Liberals out there who recognize that Kennedy does not have the political or policy comphension to lead the Liberal party. I have talked to him and tried to address specific policy issues that matter to me. His responses are usually platitudes and big-picture thinking. But he hasn't provided any clear policies or specific approaches he will employ as Liberal leader.

I am absolutely against Kennedy, Rae and Volpe winning the party. They represent the old "sleaze" that us Liberals are trying to move away from.

I hope Scott Brison or Ignateiff win, they have the right balance of progressive social policy, economic development, a realistic view of our role on the international level and the real need to do something about our environment.

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Ok, look, you can dislike Kennedy if you like (many do) but kindly come up with reasonable complaints against him.

You call Kennedy and Rae "Old party sleeze"?? Rae just joined the party two months ago! And Kennedy? I have never heard any alegation of sleeze against him. He was certainly totally disconnected from sponsorship. Volpe? Sure, 1 for 3.

As for diminishing his accomplishments in the Ministry of Education, I suggest you look into it. He was been praised by all sides for essentially turning around the most demoralized ministry in the Ontario government in 2-3 years. Teachers and the Ministry of Education had been in a flame war throughout the NDP premiership and the Harris days, and Kennedy managed to achieve a labour peace and improve the ratings of Ontario schools relative to other districts. He has been praised by people on all sides of the political spectrum, as well as by all the unions involved in Education.

Sorry for trashing Kennedy, he seems to be a nice guy and I am sure he did some good work with teh Ontario ministry. It's just that I am very concerned about various issues in a lot of different policy areas and rather respond to me on what he would do, he speaks hypothetically and in platitudes, never providing any tangible ideas.

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Originally posted by tommie:
Kennedy can do amazing things for this country.

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A time for greatness. Kennedy for Prime Minister.

Is this what you're trying to sell? Well, good luck to you, son. In the US it's always kind of predictable watching Democrats trying to discern who the new JFK is. Your apparent determination to import that sort of thing to Canada is the best laugh I have had all day.

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Originally posted by tommie:
Ah, yes. Because Medicare, the National Energy Program, CPP, Unemployment insurance, the CDD are all "anti-Canadian."

Please. The Liberal Party of Canada has historically done more to build a strong, united and progressive Canada than the NDP and it's Tommy Douglas cult membership could ever dream of.

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Dream on. The two old line parties were scared shitless of losing their strangleholds on power to progressive CCF-NDP movements.

The Diefenbaker conservatives got the ball rolling federally after observing the battle in Saskatchewan by hiring Emmet Hall to do a study as to whether Canadians needed socialized medicine. The Liberals saw how successful CCF socialized medicine was in in that province that they weren't about to let themselves be clobbered politically for not thinking of it themselves. The Liberals had no choice but to give the people what they needed.

Saskatchewan's was the first government in western hemispheric history to introduce socialized medicine after Tommy Douglas and CCF won difficult ideological battles against doctors, CMA, AMA and the Liberal party of Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan's health care included coverage for dental and eyeglasses and paid for by publicly-owned potash. The Liberals later undermined this by diverting potash profits away from the public good into the hands of multinational corporations which proceeded to manipulate potash prices against the interests of Canadians.

btw, where did Lester B and Trudeau place in the CBC's greatest Canadian contest ?. Somebody should have voted strategically.

[ 08 July 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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As Bennett’s government failed to restore the nation’s prosperity and the Depression ground on, unrest grew across the country. One effect of the disintegrating Conservative government was “the emergence of new, unorthodox political movements.” One of these was the CCF, founded in Calgary in 1932 by a coalition of farmers, academics and Ottawa MPs associated with farmer and trade-union organizations. They produced the “Regina Manifesto” in 1933, calling for the creation of a political vehicle that would rescue Canada from the Depression.

The Manifesto promised unemployment and health insurance, public housing, agricultural price supports, laws to protect farmers from creditors and public ownership of major industries and financial institutions. Its first leader was J.S. Woodsworth, a sensitive man and devout Christian who held strong opinions on helping the less fortunate.

Woodsworth challenged the division between rich and poor and questioned Canada’s immigration policy and those who tolerated treating immigrants like commodities, “as cheap labour.” His intense interest in social problems led him to speak out about individual cases. In 1909 he wrote a letter to the Manitoba Free Press about a “little foreign girl” he had seen living in filth in a North Winnipeg tenement, asking if anyone could help her. The little girl lived in deplorable conditions, her family sharing one bed, which doubled as table and chairs, and in which she languished with horrible open sores on her body. Woodsworth blamed conditions in the slums on the businessmen and politicians who created North Winnipeg and the “society people, our church people” who “obtain in some cases, double the legitimate rentals” for the tenements

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Originally posted by jfras:
The different between my Liberals (Brison, Ignateiff, Graham, Martin) they were realistic about our place in the world, whereas Liberals like Rae and Kennedy who oppose the mission without carrying any responsibility for the women, children and men of Afganistan who we are defending and supporting. If Canada leaves Afganistan, the Taliban will be back, the vacuum will fill. Women and children will be forced to hide and live in fear again. I am happy that some progress is being made, might be miniscule, but it is progress.

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There is a BIG difference between opposing the bill in the House of Commons and advocatign withdrawl from Afghanistan. NO ONE is advocating withdrawal, instead they disagree with that particular mission. No one is "turning their backs on the men women and children", as you put it.

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Originally posted by johnnie:

There is a BIG difference between opposing the bill in the House of Commons and advocatign withdrawl from Afghanistan. NO ONE is advocating withdrawal, instead they disagree with that particular mission. No one is "turning their backs on the men women and children", as you put it.

Brison's less than tactfull Blackberry message about the Trusts announcement is reason enough not want him to be leader, to say the least. And seriously, in the field of job experience? Sold mini fridges vs. Minister of Education in Ontario? You have to be joking.

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I was making the point that he actually had a really diverse background and that he worked hard to build his own business, which means he respects other people's hard work and money. Though he was much more then an entrepreneur, he was also an investment banker and Minister of Public Works for the federal governments, as well as being one of the hardest working MPs since he was elected.

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Originally posted by johnnie:
Oh, non-sense. People can insult Kennedy if they like, but he actually has some pretty impressive accomplishments. Running two major food banks impresses me at least, and running a notoriously plagued ministry as he did and coming out with endorsements from the Teachers unions is pretty damned impressive as well.

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Best for the Liberal party? Ignatieff.
Who do I want? Volpe. But that's because I don't support the LPC.

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So coming from someone that does not like or support the Libs. Your choice of Iggy for the party is a very interesting one inferring we will ruin the party!?!

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Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis is no longer in charge of Joe Volpe's Liberal leadership campaign after resigning, creating another twist in an already turbulent campaign.

Mr. Karygiannis, who was Mr. Volpe's national campaign manager, first told journalists yesterday afternoon that reports of his resignation were “stupid.”

Not long afterward, the Volpe campaign issued a news release announcing that Mr. Karygiannis had left the campaign because of Mr. Volpe's position on the Middle East crisis and his support for Israel's right to defend itself.

“Former campaign manager Jim Karygiannis has left the campaign as a result of the position taken by the candidate on the current crisis in the Middle East,” the statement said.

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Edited to capitalize.

[ 22 July 2006: Message edited by: Who? ]

Dion is who I believe will win, the liberals are a little more than desparate in Quebec and he does seem like the centerist. Too many people dislike Iggy for him to get elected (I hope), not enough people support Kennedy for him to get elected. Too many people dislike and not enough people support Rae for him to get elected. If Dion doesn't win, Brison probably will.

Of course in an 11 horse race (or has someone dropped out) crazy things can happen.

Who do I want to win? I dunno. Kennedy I guess. I could live with Dion too.

[ 25 July 2006: Message edited by: West Coast Greeny ]

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Don't be so bitter, for all these people who don't like the Liberals, they sure like commenting and obsessing over ever Liberal detail an awful lot, is it because there political party doesn't provide them with any interest.

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This is an example of the logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy.

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Ignateiff, Brison, Dion I would be happy to call any of these men Prime Minister. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable calling the opportunistic Jack Layton PM or even Leader of the Opposition at that. At least Alexa didn't sell out NDP values for a few more seats. I like the old democrats who maintained their values over their lust for power and recognition

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Ignateiff, Brison, Dion I would be happy to call any of these men Prime Minister. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable calling the opportunistic Jack Layton PM or even Leader of the Opposition at that. At least Alexa didn't sell out NDP values for a few more seats. I like the old democrats who maintained their values over their lust for power and recognition.

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Well surprise! surprise! A partisan Liberal liked it better when the NDP had incompetent ineffective leaders who didn't get any votes!

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Originally posted by jfras:
Ignateiff, Brison, Dion I would be happy to call any of these men Prime Minister. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable calling the opportunistic Jack Layton PM or even Leader of the Opposition at that.

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Yeah, Jack is so "opportunistic" compared to...

• Ignatieff, who moved back to Canada, was parachuted into a riding with which he had no connection and, two months into his career as an MP, decided that he had what it took to lead the party and govern the country;
• Brison, who voted in favour of the CRAP-PC merger, then left the newly formed party the next day because he thought (correctly) that Paul Martin would give him a seat at the Cabinet table; and
• Dion, who was appointed to Cabinet before he even had a seat, then was parachuted into a safe Liberal seat, whose incumbent had just been appointed to the Senate to make room for him.

You were saying?

In any regard, Dion served a very good role as federalist Quebec during a very difficult time for our country. Brison left a party that did not represent his values, it was a value-based decision, and he still beleives in the party.

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Originally posted by jfras:
Jack is very opportunistic, why else would he sacrifice social programs in exhchange for more seats in a secret deal he probably made with Harper.

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Ah, yes, all of those great social programs that the Liberals would have implemented if they'd been re-elected. Let's just ignore their 13 years in power, when they did nothing but promise (and cut) social programs.

BTW, do you have the details of this secret deal you speak of? Did it include the NDP winning four BC seats that were previously held by the Conservatives? Yes sir, I'd sure like to see a copy of that deal.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Now if the Liberals want to win the election and decimate the NDP they need to recruit Stephen Lewis not Bob Rae.

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Toronto MP Joe Volpe's rocky campaign for the Liberal leadership just keeps getting more bizarre.

Things got so bad that police were called to settle a dispute between Volpe officials and his former campaign manager, MP Jim Karygiannis.

The latest episode comes in the wake of the firing last Friday of "Jimmy K," as Karygiannis is known.

Post-firing, "Jimmy K" wouldn't let a Volpe official into campaign headquarters in Scarborough to retrieve computers, which held a list of 35,914 new members recently recruited by Karygiannis on candidate Volpe's behalf.

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[Edited by Michelle to remove potential libel.]

[ 26 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
Every now and then. I get the distinct impression that Scott Piatkowski doesn't like Liberals.

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Its also a fact that as Volpe's campaign manager he masterminded all the shady deals like getting 11 year olds to donate thousands of dollars.

I can only fantasize about what sorts of tactics he used to have supposedly signed up 32,000 Liberals (instant Liberals? busloads of old ladies in black dresses? cemetery plots?). I'm highly skeptical that there are 32,000 people in Canada who are so undyingly devoted to Joe Volpe that they joined the liberal Party for no other reason than to vote for him as leader.

Now it appears from the newspaper reports that Karygiannis has been trying to steal the membership lists from the Volpe HQ claiming that they belong to HIM and not Volpe...

I rest my case.

PS: I'm surprised that Robert McBain is suddenly being so protective of poor Jim Karygiannis since i've heard rumours that him and his henchmen are already starting mass sign-ups in Beaches-East York to try to dump Maria Minna and install a member of the Tom Wappel-Jim Karygiannis cult as the next liberal candidate in the riding. If McBain cares about his wife's political future, he should be leading the charge to have this guy booted from the Liberal party before he does even more damage.

[ 26 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

Michelle deletes libelous statements he made about Jim Karygiannis and warns him not to do it again.

“Its also a fact that as Volpe's campaign manager he masterminded all the shady deals like getting 11 year olds to donate thousands of dollars.”

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Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
The following statements about Jim Karygiannis which were posted by Stockholm are false and libelous.

“Its also a fact that as Volpe's campaign manager he masterminded all the shady deals like getting 11 year olds to donate thousands of dollars.”

“Now it appears from the newspaper reports that Karygiannis has been trying to steal the membership lists from the Volpe HQ claiming that they belong to HIM and not Volpe...”

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If you know these things are false, perhaps you should inform the Toronto Star.

In the first statement the only word not supported by media reports is "masterminded", perhaps "was associated with" or "as the national director, responsible for" would be better.

In the second statement maybe "steal" should be "deny access to" to better match what the Star reported:

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"Post-firing, "Jimmy K" wouldn't let a Volpe official into campaign headquarters in Scarborough to retrieve computers, which held a list of 35,914 new members recently recruited by Karygiannis on candidate Volpe's behalf."

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While we are at it, here's a recent story featuring consummate Liberal Jimmy K (the guy who put the "pay" in "Volpe") at work.

I laughed at this part near the end:

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At a Tim Hortons in south Ottawa, (Karygiannis) plays guess-the-nationality as a man walks through the parking lot. He shouts a greeting in Tamil, and discovers the man is from Guyana.

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"Tamil, Guyana, whatever. Just sign here and vote for the guy I tell you to."

And then there's this profile from the Star where Jimmy reveals he is trying to be "nice" as a tactic

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"Jimmy K" insists he's a new man. Older, wiser — nicer.

Sure, he knows the buzz about him. Toronto Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis couldn't be one of Canada's best political organizers without knowing he's called a bully, an arm-twister and "something out of the Sopranos," as one disgruntled riding president characterized his tactics in 2002, on behalf of then-aspiring leader Paul Martin.
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But this has been a different kind of race for him.

"My tactics have changed," says Karygiannis, without elaborating and seemingly unaware that he's made the claim of being kinder and gentler before.

"When you've got 11 candidates in the race, you gotta be nice to people," he says. "And I have gone out of my way to be extra nice to people."

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I wonder if the current dispute involving the guy Jim had previously dedicated his political life to, the landlord, and the police falls under the "nice" or "not nice" tactics.

The article ends with one of the things (damaging property) Jimmy 1.0 (the not-nice version) was accused of.

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He goes back a long way with Volpe. They were rookie MPs together in 1988 and foes at the 1990 leadership convention when Volpe supported Martin and Karygiannis supported Jean Chrétien, who won.

Even then, Karygiannis was accused by Martin supporters of dirty tricks, including stuffing bubblegum into payphone coin slots to sabotage their delegates.

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[ 26 July 2006: Message edited by: Paul Gross ]

Who could win a majority? Maybe only the charismatic Kennedy, but several could score a minority imo, maybe most obviously Dion.

Opposing the NAU 'prosperity' plan is a key to success.

'Security' is fine, but modern Washington demonstrates that when the regulated capture the regulators, defending corps from citizens rather than the originally intended reverse,
things get pretty sick fast.

Another 'plank': Use the Senate to investigate aspartame: They have great credibility from looking deeply into recombinant bovine growth hormone
and cannabis
with austere objectivity.

Babbler Number 3138. Registered 29 September 2002. Location Toronto. Occupation Market Researcher. Interests, Politics, cooking, travel, film. Postal Code M6G 2R9. Gender male. Year of Birth 1963.

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Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
If Jimmy K.’s lawyer goes looking for you, he’ll track you down in no time at all.

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Check this out from today's Toronto Star:

"During the 1990 leadership contest, when he was organizing for Jean Chrétien, Karygiannis was accused by the rival Paul Martin camp of falsifying membership forms, bullying ethnic groups and stuffing bubble gum in pay phones to stymie Martin organizers from contacting supporters."

Did he sue Paul Martin for libel over that???

"After an altercation with a Martin supporter at one delegate selection meeting, the Ontario wing of the party actually banned Karygiannis from future meetings."

"Mr. Karygiannis has consistently disrupted and caused undue duress to our volunteers and staff on numerous occasions," Ontario wing president Elvio DelZotto wrote in a memo to party officials at the time."

I wonder if Elvio DelZotto is shaking in his boots over the idea that Jimmy K. might retroactively sue him for libel!!

Now, who knows, maybe the guy is planning on getting some hitmen to start murdering people to shut them up. I guess that would be one way of getting the Liberals back in power - start knocking off as many non-Liberals as possible.

If you think Karygiannis is such a great guy why don't you and your wife start a campaign to convince him to run for the leadership. He already has 35,000 members signed up some of whom might actually be alive and kicking.

This is your big chance to get on the elevator on the ground floor before it starts to go up. Think of the possibilities!! If Maria Minna is the one and only Liberal MP to support Jimmy K. for leader and he wins and gets elected PM - she might even get appointed Canadian ambassador to the Vatican!!!

Meanwhile I am enjoying the spectacle of seeing how the Volpe/Karygiannis caper is by far the most interesting thing to happen in the Liberal race so far and it ain't exactly good publicity for the Liberal Party.

[ 26 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

'Jimmy K' mulls own Liberal leadership bid

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"During the last three or four months that I was helping with the leadership campaign, I found a vacuum out there," Karygiannis said in an interview.

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If you want a vacuum found and filled, Jim's the one:

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In the last parliamentary sitting, Karygiannis was absent for all 32 votes.

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The unilingual, cigar-chomping "Jimmy K," known for his hardball but effective organizing tactics, said filling the vacuum does "not necessarily" mean throwing his own hat in the ring. But he would not rule out that possibility.

"James Bond, when he came back after a couple of movies, he said never say never."

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"Call me K. Jimmy, K."

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Karygiannis claims to have signed up more than 35,000 new party members, primarily from various ethnic communities, for Volpe. Many Liberals believe those members would abandon Volpe and follow Karygiannis should he join a rival camp.

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They make these new Liberal recruits seem like sheep.

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: Paul Gross ]

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They make these new Liberal recruits seem like sheep.

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i suspect a lot of the recuiting has to do with establishing new power structures within the various constituencies. It a lot easier to bring in fresh faces that you have already got some commitment from then to convince the exisitng members you are the one for the job.

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The Elephant in the Middle of the Race
Printed in the Globe and Mail - 14/07/06

The Liberal leadership campaign has entered its second lap with a whimper, not a bang. This race was supposed to demonstrate lessons learned and a commitment to doing things differently. Our first round was to have been about renewal: a race based upon hope, ideas, and the potential of Canada.

We had a 'failure to launch,' in part because there was an elephant in the room, which some of us were determined not to see...

The elephant is called 'old politics' and one candidate's TEAM is using our collective blindness to hide behind it...

Paying for memberships or delegate fees is against the law. Signing memberships forms on behalf of others has always been illegal. But not getting caught is no longer good enough. Never again should the first Liberal party experience for a young voter be signing a membership form illegally, being asked to swear that they paid for their own membership when they have just received THE ten dollar bill TO ATTACH ABOVE their signature. We have a whole generation of organizers involved in this race who grew up campaigning under those 'old politics' rules...

Some candidate's TEAMS, some Liberal party elected leaders, and many journalists don't seem to get it. The rules may have changed, but one thing hasn't: when you are caught breaking the law - in spirit or in statute - as a leader you have one obligation. You take responsibility for it and resign. Apologies, restitution, and defensive evasions don't count...

How incredibly ironic is this ball and chain we are being forced to drag in this race. It was our government and party that legislated the toughest new campaign finance laws in Canada's history! Yet as candidates, we are forced to defend the very fund-raising behaviour our government acted against...

Our grassroots activists are angry that our party's credibility on reform has been compromised by the use of children as fundraising targets. They are hurt by our party's response to this appalling behaviour...

Most of us travelling the country in this campaign have heard what Canadians want. They are very clear: clean, innovative leadership that listens, leadership with integrity and transparency...

When the behaviour of a Minister's department sours Question Period daily, when that Minister becomes a drag on the reputation of the government as a whole, he has one obligation. When a candidate's campaign behaviour has the same impact on his party, he has the same obligation. Until Joe Volpe puts his lifelong commitment to this party ahead of his CANDIDACY, we risk failing to achieve the renewal our party and our country needs.

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Michael Geist, who holds the Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law at the University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, writes in today’s Toronto Star.

“The suit …highlights the vulnerability of thousands of Canadians to defamation lawsuits merely for providing access to other people's comments….

“Under current Canadian law, intermediaries can face potential liability for failing to remove allegedly defamatory content once they receive notification of such a claim, even without court oversight.

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Originally posted by Naci_Sey:
Did anyone catch this article by Carolyn Bennett, which was printed in the July 14th Globe and Mail? It strikes me as pretty gutsy. She's clearly angry and pulls no punches in calling for Volpe's withdrawal from the race.

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Calling for candidates not to pay for new memberships would be gutsy if she produced some proof and named names. I wouldn't be surprised if all the frontrunners are doing it - but Ms. Bennett doesn't provide evidence that any are.

All that is being pointed out is that libel is an actionable offence. By libelling someone on this discussion board, you put Rabble.CA at risk.

Calling someone idiotic, spineless, unprincipled or something along those lines qualifies as fair comment.

Accusing someone of stealing membership lists is libellous.

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Accusing someone of stealing membership lists is libellous.

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When can we expect Karygiannis to sue to Joe Volpe and the Toronto Star for libel???

Meanwhile I'm actually glad to Karygiannis is there because he helps make the Liberal Party look bad. Relatively well-meaning (if mis-guided) Liberals like Maria Minna must cringe everytime they read a newspaper article about Karygiannis knowing that the resultant bad publicity only serves to further tarnish the Liberal brand in Canada. I wonder if she and other Liberals carry around rubbing alcohol to cleanse themselves with in case if they accidentally touch him!! (who knows where those hands have been).

There is not ONE single word printed in the Toronto Star article or uttered by Joe Volpe alleging that Jim Karygiannis made any attempt to steal the Volpe campaign membership lists.

1.) You don’t call the police when you are in the process of “stealing” someone’s computers.

2.) As the lease was in the name of Jim Karygiannis, we have no way of knowing whether or not the computers had also been leased/provided by him.

Why are you being so defensive of an individual so seemingly devoid of any redeeming qualities? Or is one of your pastimes having Jimmy K. blow smoke rings in your face while he tells you about his latest gun for hire plots to sign up tens of thousands of instant Liberals.

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Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
Also, we should be able to have heated discussions about public issues without referring to anyone as a "shitweasel".

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When called out on that, Stockholm claimed that the accusation was made by Volpe himself and that it was carried in the Toronto Star.

One thing this whole Liberal so-calleed leadership campiagn has done is make me not be able to decode who is a more revolting human being: Joe Volpe or Jim Karygiannis. I think the Liberal party deserves both of them. maybe they should have a truce and agreed on a joint Vole/Karygiannis leadership - that would sure endear canadians to the Liberal Party!!!

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Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
[QB]2.) As the lease was in the name of Jim Karygiannis, we have no way of knowing whether or not the computers had also been leased/provided by him.

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From my reading of http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/e-2.01/text.html the above allegation, if true, could represent a violation of section 435.22 of the Elections Act:

quote:

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Prohibition — paying leadership campaign expenses

(3) No person or entity, other than a leadership campaign agent of the leadership contestant, shall pay leadership campaign expenses, other than personal expenses, of the contestant.

Prohibition — incurring leadership campaign expenses

(4) No person or entity, other than a leadership contestant or one of his or her leadership campaign agents, shall incur leadership campaign expenses of the contestant.

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