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When stopping in for a meal at Soprano's Italian and American Grill in Lake George, N.Y., leave a good tip.

Or else.

A man from the New York City area was arrested Sunday night after his party of nine failed to leave an 18 percent tip, the restaurant's mandatory gratuity for parties of six or more people, which had been added to his bill.

The diner, Humberto A. Taveras, 41, was arrested, fingerprinted and photographed for a mug shot in Lake George, a resort village about 60 miles north of Albany, but he did not produce the $13.73 tip, which is a little less than 18 percent of the $77.43 cost of his meal. He faces a misdemeanor charge of theft of services and, if convicted, could serve up to a year in jail, said Larry J. Cleveland, the Warren County sheriff.

Joe Soprano, who owns the restaurant, said that he and his wife, Tina, had not intended to have Mr. Taveras arrested when they filed the complaint. But Mr. Soprano was unapologetic yesterday.

"They shorted the check and didn't leave any money at all for the waitress," he said. "This is not a vendetta. This is just about standing up for my waitresses."

Members of Mr. Taveras's party were "very rude" throughout their pizza dinner, Mr. Soprano said, but they never complained about the food or service. All of the menus have a notice about the mandatory gratuity, he said, and the party was specifically reminded about the tipping policies.

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Full Story in NY Times

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Joe Soprano, who owns the restaurant...

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"They shorted the check and didn't leave any money at all for the waitress," he said. "This is not a vendetta. This is just about standing up for my waitresses."

Members of Mr. Taveras's party were "very rude" throughout their pizza dinner, Mr. Soprano said, but they never complained about the food or service. All of the menus have a notice about the mandatory gratuity, he said, and the party was specifically reminded about the tipping policies.

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Wow, I've worked enough serving jobs in my life to take a guess that Mr. Soprano is a man worthy of my respect.

[ 12 September 2004: Message edited by: britchestoobig ]

A tip is a gift. I have only perhaps twice in my life chosen not to leave a tip, and I'm generous otherwise, but the two times I chose not to leave a gift of gratitude were my choice. I don't see where any restaurant owner has any right to tell me otherwise, or to arbitrarily add what he thinks would be generous to my bill and then accuse me of theft if I don't pay it.

That way the owner doesn't lose money, the servers don't have to depend on the caprices of customers (who, as everyone who has ever had a retail or serving job knows, are often assholes) in order to get paid their full wages and they'll be working on a fair commission structure instead, and the customers know exactly how much their meal will cost.

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Seems reasonable, but I'd add one more thing: a big sign, or a large notice at the bottom of each menu telling diners that that's what's going on, and that they don't need to "tip" outside of their bill unless they wish to.

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I would go further. I would bill it as a "no tipping" restaurant and declare it the new revolution in fair employment for servers and fair pricing for customers, and I would tell customers that servers are forbidden from accepting tips from customers - I think there are other service industries (fast food comes to mind) where this is standard. Not that I want to see servers treated like fast food workers. My idea is that the server gets their 15% over and above a half-decent salary.

Do you expect to bring about change by ridiculing anyone who isn't 100% behind socialism?

None of us have perfect information on this individual, but I do have personal experience to draw from:

I've worked in a lot of restaurants, its a tough business. Most restaurants don't make a lot of money - and remember that the economic situation aggregates for restaurants: more people have less disposable income and so go out less.

Until you change the way most people think, higher prices would cut into the bottom line and could in many cases risk the business.

The changes you suggest Michelle are reasonable, but only on the systemic level. For an owner to try it in isolation could be suicidal for his business.

We don't know his specific situation, we don't even *know* how much he pays his staff and yet *immediately* you are willing to castigate a man who seems to be at least trying to look out for his staff.

Is this how we are going to win the support of the majority of the electorate?

Have I been "red-baiting" before this?

Forums are difficult venues for civil conversation because none of us involved operate with full context - we don't know each other, we can't gauge facial expressions, we can't base decisions on what someone says from deep knowledge of who they are.

When you said this:

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I don't think he is. Why doesn't he stand up for "his waitresses" (what, he owns them?) by paying them properly so that they don't have to depend on their tips?

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I used the word "socialist" - not as a bait but rather because I neeeded some descriptor for what said, and given your argument's connection to economic distribution I attached what I thought an appropriate label.

Not as bait, I myself am conflicted between pragmatism and idealism. In the ideal I think socialism is the goal we should aim for. In the real world I think that takes time. Takes a lot of steps.

To give context: Your words, and Magoo's agreement, fit a pattern I have seen in too many of my own socialist friends. I am deeply disturbed by a streak of self-rightous anger I see in many people around me.

A belief system reflected at least in your words above. Deconstruct your own words, from the standpoint of someone who doesn't know you they sure read like someone who holds an a priori prejudice. You draw immediate negative conclusions and parse his words for signs of offence (I'm a teacher, and often refer to "my kids" - does that mean I think I own them?!).

It is dangerous and unproductive to attack those who try to do good (and to attack each other). If someone tries to look out for their staff - in my experience an extremely rare occurance among restaurant owners - we should look at that as an opportunity and respect them for trying to be decent.

Otherwise we will fall exactly into their media-constructed prejudice as arrogant ( and "elitist" - would be a laughable misnomer if the right had not exploited it so effectively).

Respect the ones who at least try instead of tearing them down for not doing enough.

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Originally posted by britchestoobig:
Michelle, in the week or so that I have been on rabble, have you and I ever had problems before?

Have I been "red-baiting" before this?

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No. I based what I said on your post above only, in which you dismissed my views by characterizing them as "ridiculing anyone who isn't 100% behind socialism" (which is a ridiculous charge), and claiming that I was "sermonizing on the mount".

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To give context: Your words, and Magoo's agreement, fit a pattern I have seen in too many of my own socialist friends.

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Common sense?

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*immediately* you are willing to castigate a man who seems to be at least trying to look out for his staff.

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Magoo...do you figure that Mr. Soprano should be held accountable for a policy of tipping servers that spans North America. Ahem...common sense is it?

The last owners I worked for were amazing. One had been a server for years and in remembrance, she endeavored to treat "her staff" with respect and trust.

I remember having a discussion with her about No Logo. After reading it she felt conflicted because she felt that, while the servers didn't make very much money - she could not see how she could afford to pay a living wage to her servers.

She was looking at her case alone, not able to look at the wider picture, and not understanding the potential for non zero-sum economic benefits. She was afraid also of the immediate damage to the bottom line...

So...would she be worthy of your contempt guys?

Jesus, I mean how do you expect to change things for the better...by spending all your time typing in here, or talking amongst yourselves with some self-righteousness about the deficiencies of those who do not see the world the way you do...

There is this underlying level of contempt coming from you both about this one guy (and perhaps now, by extension me) that I quite frankly find depressing. When I hear your words echoed amongst my friends I wonder if things will ever change.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: britchestoobig ]

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Magoo...do you figure that Mr. Soprano should be held accountable for a policy of tipping servers that spans North America.

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I don't believe I've ever heard of failure to comply with this arm-twisting "policy" being treated as criminal theft before.

I'm sorry, but you cannot decide, as a matter of policy, that certain guests (those seated with more than "X" number of other guests) shall be forced, under penalty of law, to give a gratuity to a server... who incidentally is not punished by law should he/she fail to deliver top notch service and actually earn that tip.

"Jesus, I mean how do you expect to change things for the better...by spending all your time typing in here, or talking amongst yourselves with some self-righteousness about the deficiencies of those who do not see the world the way you do..."

When I read britches' first post, I thought that he was defending the European principle -- that the gratuities are part of the bill -- and beyond that, the article says that in this particular restaurant, they were "mandatory." So where is the disagreement here?

I've been talking to britches a little over the past week, and I think that he is a nice guy and a smart guy. I suspect that he has been caught off balance here, which often happens to newbies, and is responding a bit defensively.

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Much like the guy who didnt pay the cost of the gas but only what he felt "it was worth" is still guilty of theft.

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Ah, but gasoline doesn't discriminate. You don't pay 118% for your gas if you buy 6 or more litres, for example.

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I don't think he is. Why doesn't he stand up for "his waitresses" (what, he owns them?) by paying them properly so that they don't have to depend on their tips?

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That speaks to me of prejudice - of guilt by class association alone.

That is what I have issue with.

I tried in one post to discuss problems of context, I tried to give some sense of my personal experiences to describe the context of my own opinions. I don't know Mr. Soprano, but my own time as a server makes me sympathetic to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the guy is doing what he thinks is the best he can do.

To deny him that possibility based solely on his being a restaurant owner seems to me to be unfair.

...and unproductive because I think that if we want to effect change within a democratic framework we need to think of ways in which to build broad consensus, and with that in mind we should be working with those who want to do right, but don't understand how.

Is Mr. Soprano one of those? None of us know, but there are ones who happen to be both owners *and* essentially decent. Alienating them based on ownership alone doesn't strike me as helpful.

And then yeah, I got a little pissed and made some general misstatements of my own...lagatta, that was spoken in the heat of the moment. So my apologies on that.

Magoo and others, the question of whether we should tip servers is an issue separate from that which concerned me.

Yes, Europeans have a different system...but the fact of its existence isn't enough on its own. How do we convince those within our system to change? If you can give me some advice on that I'd very much be willing to listen.

When I read Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" I was impressed by his brief discussion of how the Anarchists abolished tips for waiters. I agree with the essential argument that it reinforces classist assumptions.

But its more important to figure out the pragmatics of how to get from where we are now to there. 'Cause I sure don't have any solutions on that!

Cheers,

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: britchestoobig ]

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Thing is, a lot of places usually add that surcharge for large parties. Part of the justification for it is that it makes a helluva lot more work for servers, for the kitchen staff

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Then a party of, say, 12, could always sit at three tables of four. Then there'd be no extra work for the kitchen staff. Presumably no surcharge either.

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since the large group creates a huge backlog in the processing of other patrons' orders.

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Then maybe the surcharge should go to them.

I'm not sure I really see how a group of six people can create any more work than two groups of three people do. Less, maybe even. What does it matter if they're sitting around a larger table or two smaller ones??

The main problem that I noticed is that if you have two tables paying small bills, odds are pretty good that their tip will approach or - if you're as good a server as I am - exceed 15%

But larger groups with larger bills and the percentage drops. Not always, but its definitely outside of any margin of error.

3 groups of 4 vs. 1 group of 12.

The sum of the whole does not add up to the sum of the parts.

Why is that? I have no idea - I'm still trying to figure out why it is that an empty restaurant can fill up all at once with totally unconnected groups of people...how do separate groups so often coalesce within say 10 minutes?

Its a crazy world...

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: britchestoobig ]

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It doesnt scale like you assume it would

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No it doesn't and I am not sure what the reason is, having waitressed in my time. I always hated big tables, especially big tables with lots of misbehaving children.

1. Because of
a) taxes on his business income
b) employee-protection expenses
c) bank charges
d) income-specific government assessments

Restaurant owners would have to increase their rates by much more than 15% - it would be more like an increase of 15% of their profits, which are always low in the restaurant biz.

2. Most servers work in food service because of the 'under the table' tip money. Servers would balk at having their declared income doubled or tripled.

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And Magoo, as someone who has worked in food service for 10 years in aggregate, restaurants *do* have the right to add the gratuity to the bill as long as they state so on the menu;

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Fair enough, though I'm puzzled as to why this hasn't been challenged. Seems rather arbitrary to me.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

I also wonder what the servers think. I know that if I get food delivered, and there's no charge, I'll tip the delivery person. If the restaurant already dings me for the tip, they get nothing. As someone who tries to tip above the usual 15%, adding it to my bill is a sure way to get less.

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Well this server thinks she wishes the places *she* worked had mandatory gratuities.

In all the places I've ever worked, tips have never added up to more than 10% of total bills at the end of the day.

And tables of 6-12 are the *worst* for tipping, and in fact often leave the table short, forcing the server to make up the difference.

At the last place I worked, really large parties (over 40) were usually good with tips, because it was always one person paying the whole shot, and they usually appreciated the extra work large parties require.

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Originally posted by Anchoress:
But in most instances where people are passing a bill around and putting in for it (or even when a large party asks for 'separate bills'), the tip is much smaller than usual. What happens? Are some people cheap? Thieves? Bad at math? Who knows, but it's a predictable phenomenon in food service.

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I think it's a combination of cheapness and bad math. When you're passing a bill around and trying to work out what you've eaten and approximate how much you owe plus the friggin' GST and liquor tax, it can come up short especially if you're prone to underestimating rather than overestimating. I flatter myself I'm reasonably good with numbers, but even I wouldn't try to claim I could add all the stuff in my head and cha-ching, come out with an exact on the nose result for how much I owe into the pot.

A related item:

I remember being particularly irritated on a friend's behalf (it was his birthday) when he had to personally make up the bill because two of his other buddies shorted their payment on the bill, and I know they did this because they were ordering alcohol all through the night, and at restaurants even shots of rum or whiskey can add up something fierce. Yet the cheap bastards kicked in less than what they should have and my buddy had to personally cover the rest out of pocket.

On his birthday!

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it's about the server being a complete jackass.

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And sometimes servers aren't even jackasses to your face. I worked with a woman who absolutely hated her job and would routinely spit in her customers food because of the slightest thing. They asked for more water.

We also had one cook who would see a name on the bill he didnt' like throw the steak on the floor stomp on it and then put it on the grill.'

When our office goes out for a burger'n'brew, we usually pony up too high, and start taking loonies or twonies out of the pile until we're down to the bill plus a decent tip.

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: beverly ]

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Probably the same person who told me to shave in the direction of the beard growth.

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Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

Typically a blonde haired, light-growth person. Bastards.

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Shaving against the direction of hair growth gives a closer shave, but has two drawbacks:

It's a good way to donate blood, and
You run a high risk of cutting off a hair below skin level, causing an ingrown hair--the whisker grows into the surrounding tissue instead of out of the pore, resulting in inflammation and possible infection.

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