Nationalism is not a healthy thing. But since every nationality and nation practices it to some extent, particularly when it is politically, culturally, or economically expedient, it will always continue to be with us.

Although I can completely see Wilf Day's point about the chickens wanting to get the elephant the heck out of the henyard. I guess ethnic nationalism becomes more of a problem when one kind of chicken labels another group of chickens "elephants" in order to kick them out.

[ 17 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]

The nation and the state need not be the same thing, as Pierre Trudeau, hardly a radical, used to try to remind people all the time.

[ 17 July 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

I do think that some people are happier to dismiss culture than others; some (me, eg) would consider culture a deeper factor in human life than others.

I observe that no one can know everything, which is one of the reasons that the deepest culture is always local, and grows by staged units from there.

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Originally posted by WingNut:
Again, I don't think what you're speaking of is ethnic nationalism as that term is understood. For example, if we talk of a Palestinian state, we can speak of a state that adopts Palestinian symbols, languages, culture and history. But we would not expect that state to then exclude from citizenship or participation others who are not ethnically Palestinian.

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Unfortunately it's well documented that (Arab) Middle East States are not "friendly" to Jews. DO you really think a Palestinian State will NOT be xenophobic (a milder word then what I am really thinking) towords Jews (i.e. infidels)?

http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=1642

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/arabjew.html

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Does ethnic nationalism lead to xenophobia?

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One can make the argument that any culture has a component of xenophobia. There is definitely a component of us versus them in any culture; even of cultures within cultures. The sheer snobbishness of classical music fans can be classed as a xenophobia of sorts.

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Originally posted by Peech:
Unfortunately it's well documented that (Arab) Middle East States are not "friendly" to Jews. DO you really think a Palestinian State will NOT be xenophobic (a milder word then what I am really thinking) towords Jews (i.e. infidels)?

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I'm not sure, because I'm not sure how Jews were treated in those countries before the creation of Israel.

However, I do agree with you that it would be difficult NOW to put the toothpaste back in the tube, and I do believe that now, there is not only legitimate political dislike of Israel throughout the region, but also illegitimate anti-semitic dislike/distrust of Jews in general. I have seen and heard (and been put in the position of countering) the prejudice against Jews in general from people I've known from that region (and been told by these folks that "everyone knows" Jews are such-and-such) too often to think that this kind of prejudice is unheard of.

So yes, maybe the hatreds are too entrenched now for a real integration, I don't know. But then, doesn't that just prove the thesis, that ethnic nationalism (on BOTH sides!) leads to xenophobia on both sides? So Israel builds their country on the premise that Jews get preferential treatment, and Iran builds their country on the premise that Muslims (Shi'a primarily) get preferential treatment, Saudi Arabia builds their country on the premise that their version of Islam is the official religion and give preferential treatment to "their own"...and look what happens in these countries. Ethnic rivalries, hatreds that get more deeply entrenched with each generation...

It seems to me that doing the same thing again and expecting a different result is foolhardy.

[ 17 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

I agree it's a dilema. Which is why I stated I think the state will evolve to be more inclusive when a newer geration with less historic baggage takes over. Don't forget Sharon is very old guard. Also I beleive the sources I linked to deal with long discrimination and poor treatment of Jews in the Middle East prior to the creation of Israel. It's a fallacy to say it suddenly happened post 1948. Hate takes a long time to ferment and Ant-Semitism is one of the longest hates. (ie the Grand Mufti was a supporter of Nazi Germany).

WingNut how about actually reading the links?

[ 17 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]

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WingNut how about actually reading the links?

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Anti-semitism was one of the longest hates in Christendom. Jews, like Christians, were minority groups in the Muslim world and at times suffered the shabby treatment of many a minority group, especially when there were movements for greater religious rigour. But there is no comparison between the lives of Jews in the Arab and/or Muslim world and the litany of persecutions, pogroms, massacres and mad conspiracy theories in the Christian West.

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Originally posted by WingNut:

Why not answer the question?

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Why not read the links?
You (apparently) already know the answer.

[ 17 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]

WingNut, I don't think I've ever heard of someone being "ethnically Palestinian". Palestinian refers to the people who lived in Palestine before the Nakba. Which I'm sure you know is a diverse group of people ethnically, and religeously. Though, they are predominantly Arab (who are actually a mix of ethnic groups united by language, which raises the question "are Arabs an ethnic group?" and "what is ethnicity?")

Michelle, I see the the attitude you describe in people around me all the time. It very difficult to change someone's prejudiced views when everyday that view is reconfirmed. Without real evidence that there are significant exceptions people will continue to generalize. Its seems clear xenophobia breeds hatred in return. And I think this thread's topic points to the source of it all.

skdadl, I think its approriate I reply here to your post in The new anti-Semitism wher you wrote

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In much of the world, we are talking about anti-colonialism, for one thing. The cause of the Irish and the Scots and the Basques is not just a question of colourful native costumes and jolly folk songs.

The same, in much slower and more agonized process, is true in many other places in the world -- almost the whole of Africa, for instance.

And then there is Palestine.

Colonialism is historically rooted, and it ends up shaping the imaginations of peoples. To me, it is a rather mindless liberal notion that people should be asked to wipe their minds clear of the stories that shaped their present.

And it hardly matters, anyway. They won't.

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Also many of these nationalist "anti-colonial" movements discriminate against minorities within the country they are active in.
It still seems to me that ethnic nationalism leads to distrust of the other.

[ 17 July 2005: Message edited by: salaam ]

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WingNut, I don't think I've ever heard of someone being "ethnically Palestinian".

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Why not read the links?
You (apparently) already know the answer.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
So who's got a problem?

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[ 19 July 2005: Message edited by: praenomen3 ]

[ 19 July 2005: Message edited by: praenomen3 ]

Personally, I always learn more on this turf listening to someone who knows a particular culture in depth talking about its currents and cross-currents and undertows in concrete terms. That's always more humanizing, for one thing, even of cultures that trouble us, and it also tends to feel closer to the truth.

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Originally posted by praenomen3:
what proportion of minorities would it take to make a nation-state stop being a nation?

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Originally posted by praenomen3:
Could be. I know Iceland doesn't. Perhaps if there are such folks in Japan, it's such a small volume of the population that it isn't statistically relevant.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Yeah, and the elephant in with the chickens thing is more talking about colonialism than anything. The ethnic nationalism solution is to not allow any elephants in the country. The multicultural or "salad bowl" solution is to make it so that elephants AND chickens can live together without hurting each other.

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I don't think the analogy works, or is meant to work, at the "micro" individual citizen level. A big colonial country may be an elephant, and decrying nationalism among the pesky little ethnic "chicken" states. But the citizens of each are the same size. The point of anticolonial nationalism isn't to keep any expats from the colonial power out, it's to deny the colonial power any control and reduce their influence.

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
A big colonial country may be an elephant, and decrying nationalism among the pesky little ethnic "chicken" states. But the citizens of each are the same size.

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From the chicken perspective, it's not easy to see whether the face of the elephant is Uncle Sam, George W. Bush, General Richard B. Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or Robson Walton (once listed as the wealthiest human on the planet, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Walmart Stores Inc., the world's largest corporation by revenue in 2004, or Lee Raymond (CEO of Exxon Mobil, the world's most profitable corporation of 2004). Nor does it matter much to the scattering chickens.

[ 19 July 2005: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

Obviously, since one cannot lump all Arab countries in one bunch, it is vital to look case by case.

Egypt;

I believe this article is interesting in that it sets the effects of ultra nationalsitic discourses on people who someotimes belonged to none of them, or people who had affinities to both. This article sheds a light on Egyptian Jews via a critical framework of both Arab nationlsim and Zionism, and as such it avoids the cliches of propaganda.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/SHR/5-1/text/beinin.html

egyptian jewish identities
communitarianisms, nationalisms, nostalgias
by Joel Beinin

Moreover, Egyptian Jews were an eclectic bunch in that some were actually Egyptian, while many others were of Eastern European lineage who settle in Egypt with the economic textile boom in the 19th century. Those, like scores of Italian, Greek, Syrians, and Lebanese, who were generally upper middle class had their properties expropriated after the revolution in 1952, and were never naturalized. As such, even after spending 2-3 generations in Egypt, they were considered as foreign and expatriates.
In 1956, many Jews in Egypt had no Egyptian passports, but French and British ones. When Israel-Britain-France waged war on Egypt after Nasser nationalized the Suez canal, all British and French subjects were deported from Egypt, many of them 3rd-4th generation Jews who could never acquire the Egyptian nationality.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5855/bassa5.htm

from the online journal of Egypt's Jewish community:

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SOME CORRECTIONS THAT HAVE TO BE MADE
Several historical inaccuracies and misleading statements can be found in the Egypt section of the JEWISH COMMUNITIES OF THE WORLD home page. For instance it wrongly states that...

- The Israeli embassy in Cairo maintains the upkeep of the Chaar Hachamayim (Ismailia Temple) Synagogue in Cairo.
It is the JCC (Jewish Community Council of Cairo) AND NOT the Israeli Embassy in Cairo which runs and maintains the Adly Temple.

- Chaar Hachamayim is the only temple operating in Cairo.
What about the the Meyr Biton temple in Maadi which is open each year from Yom Kipur to Sukkot. And have we forgotten the beautifully restored Ben Ezra in Old Cairo, probably the oldest known synagogue in the world?

- ...after 1948 most Egyptian Jews fled the country and the majority settled in Israel.
Prominent Jewish academics have stated in their publications that less than a third of Egypt's Jews chose to go to Israel. There were over 55,000 Jews in Egypt when Israel, France and Britain attacked Egypt in October 1956 subsequent to President Gamal Abdel Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal. Many of those who left after 1956 were holders of British and French passports and thus considered enemy aliens. With the intensification of the Arab-Israeli conflict after Israel's participation in the Tripartite Agression, most of the Jews who had a choice, left for Europe and America.

- From 1956 to 1979 the Jewish Community in Egypt did not have ties with Israel and the World Jewry.
Although it had no ties with Israel even before 1956, the Jewish community in Egypt maintained relations with Jewish communities in other parts of the world.

- 2,000 Jews were arrested in 1948 following the outbreak of the first Arab-Israeli war.
Why not tell it like it was: Egypt was at war with Israel. Out of the approximate 60,000 - 80,000 Jews living in Egypt at the time, those arrested were either self-declared Zionists possibly members of the Young Hebrew Movement and other like-minded Zionist organizations, or those who had strong Zionist links and supported political Zionism. Unfortunately, there were also those mistakenly arrested as suspect Zionists. The practise of jailing what the state termed 'subversive elements' was not directed specifically at Jews; members of other non desirable political currents -- communists and Moslem Brothers, were treated in a similar manner.

Incomplete, inaccurate and out-of-context rhetoric only contributes to poor relations.

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So to use the biases of the Arab-Zionist conflict (even before Israel was founded) to offer myopic readings of an otherwise complex sitution does not render it any justice.