Author
|
Topic: The ever-popular "self-hating Jew"
|
|
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
|
posted 21 March 2008 08:15 PM
But this accusation of "self-hating" is very specific when hurled in the Jewish context. I've faced it for 40 years, since shortly after the 1967 war, when I naively asked, "Why aren't they pulling back now that the war is over?" The accusation at that time was very gentle, but over the years I have faced this attack in various forms - verbally, through the media, from the pulpit (yeah!), and physically. It has never been easy.My response varied over the years, but the kernel was always the same. I replied that I came to my anti-Zionist and anti-Israel stand precisely from my upbringing in Jewish culture and tradition, and from the experience of my own family as a direct victim of racial discrimination, dispossession of property, ghettoization, and finally physical extermination and genocide. This tradition, and this experience, taught me that the essence, the soul of the Jewish people has been the Diaspora, the necessity of being one with the nations of the world, of sharing weal and woe with them, of sympathizing with all their struggles for emancipation as if they were are own (because they are our own) - or else cloistering ourselves and facing extinction. The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism had overwhelmed me, and what could I do but be a good Jew, carrying on the finest legacy of my forebears?
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
martin dufresne
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11463
|
posted 21 March 2008 08:43 PM
It's a strong, moral argument but who gets to define what is a good Jew? Any definition has to be based on consensus and if Israeli Jews elect time and again governments committed to destroying Palestine, it's hard - and morally/intellectually dishonest - to deny that decision that indicts them. I face the same pressure and dilemma in my pro-feminist work, where the accusation (or psychologizing suspicion) that I "must hate men" comes up time and again. Another profeminist, Michael Kimmel, addresses this charge approximately as you do, when he claims: quote: One can care about and love men and still be critical of the ideology of masculinity. In fact, for many of us, loving men is exactly why we might be critical of masculinity. My goal is to love men enough to be critical of masculinity, to be critical of what we do because I think we are capable of so much better.
For me, however, this is unsufficient. I understand your reference to a tradition of mensches - which I hope is real - but reality beckons with Apache helicopters an missiles raining on Gaza. I think it is an idealist position to claim a priori that men or Jews are absolutely better than the decisions they make here and now to pursue and escalate oppression and self-identification as oppressors. And if Jews collectively and repeatedly choose to embody Zionism - or men, hegemonic masculinity -, then it is not as Jews or men but as justice-loving human beings that it behooves us to NOT love Jews or men unconditionnally, an essentialist stance. Which is not self-hating, of course, but dissidence, secession from the group.That's my take so far, but I am eager to have this discussion. [ 21 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
|
posted 22 March 2008 06:20 AM
I know about Bertell Ollman primarily because he is one of the few academics in the English speaking world that specializes in the study of dialectics. Since dialectics is typically presented either as some sort of mechanical triad that makes thinking unnecessary, or as the disfigured version of Soviet times, Ollman's efforts are very helpful to contrast with these caricatures. Ollman, however, is know for more than his study of politics and dialectics. Letter of Resignation from the Jewish People (no date but clearly a few years old) This is an autobiographical piece by Bertell Ollman. quote: things have reached a point that I want out. The problem is how to do it. One can quit a club, a religion (one can convert), a country (one can take out another citizenship and go live elsewhere), and even a gender (given current medical science), but how do you resign from a people into which you were born?
Notice Ollman is not equating his "resignation" with a religious conversion. This is an important aspect of Jewishness, that some Jewish babblers have also noted, that non-Jews ought to make note of: being Jewish isn't simply a religious identity. It's more than that. Anyway, back to Ollman: quote: From what I've said so far, it would be easy for some to dismiss me as a self-hating Jew, but that would be a mistake. If anything, I am a self-loving Jew, but the Jew I love in me is the Diaspora Jew, the Jew that was blessed for 2,000 years by having no country to call his/her own. That this was accompanied by many cruel disadvantages is well known, but it had one crowning advantage that towered over all the rest.
That advantage, says Ollman, is not suffering as much from love of country when, as a second class citizen in all of them, you don't have a country to love. (pre-Israel) You could think of yourself as a "citizen of the world" even before this concept had a wide currency. quote: I'm not saying that this is how most Diaspora Jews actually thought, but some did - Spinoza, Marx, Freud, and Einstein being among the best known - and the opportunity as well as the inclination for others to do so came from the very rejection they all experienced in the countries in which they lived.
Anyway, it's impossible for me to summarize the whole piece. It is part autobiography, part theological history, part history of Diaspora Judaism, and so on. It is also a little dated, so if anyone is aware of developments since Ollman wrote this piece, then it would be helpful to bring that out as well. Love of Israel? - Jan/Feb 2005 This article is part of a longer debate, during the course of which Ollman, I think, takes exception to this "love" of a government and the consequences of that love. You can read it for yourself but I just wanted to pay attention to one small thing in this piece. Ollman has a brilliant metaphor for right wing views masquerading as left wing views: quote: Ollman: Schorsch never moves in one direction without making a head fake in the other.
Ha ha. That's outstanding and I've got to remember that one. Ollman has done some analysis of sports, basketball in particular, and it shows. Here is the full quote: quote: Schorsch never moves in one direction without making a head fake in the other. The fake is always in the direction of reasonableness. The real movement is always in support of Israel's policies, stopping every now and then to pat this opponent reassuringly on the back. Everything else is frosting on the cake.
Everything else is just "running up the score", but I'm quibbling with a brilliant metaphor. Is Anti-Zionism a New Form of Anti-Semitism? April 2003 Ollman critiques the view that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism MUST go together and points out that such views can actually contribute to an increase of anti-Semitism. Ollman also point out that Bush's "Moral" Majority, for example, is full of anti-Semites that are pro-Zionist, which would seem to be evidence in favour of his claim that there is no link between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
adam stratton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14803
|
posted 22 March 2008 09:25 AM
quote: The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism had overwhelmed me, and what could I do but be a good Jew, carrying on the finest legacy of my forebears? -unionist
I have deep respect for Judaism, Christianity, Islam (By chronological, not preference order) and whatever people's beliefs or lack thereof might be. I may disagree with some right wing elements but not to paint their religious -or atheist or agnostic- beliefs with a -should I say- less than clean brush. I learn here that Judaism has an enlightened stream, something the author denies to oher faiths, and that there are good Jews and "bad" Jews, witout providing any (objective) yardsticks. Too bad he withdrew from the discussion and left only thirst for some elaboration. [ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]
From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
just one of the concerned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14896
|
posted 22 March 2008 09:56 AM
quote: Originally posted by martin dufresne: It's a strong, moral argument but who gets to define what is a good Jew? Any definition has to be based on consensus and if Israeli Jews elect time and again governments committed to destroying Palestine, it's hard - and morally/intellectually dishonest - to deny that decision that indicts them.
I'm shocked to read this on a progressive board. quote: Originally posted by martin dufresne: For me, however, this is unsufficient. I understand your reference to a tradition of mensches - which I hope is real - but reality beckons with Apache helicopters an missiles raining on Gaza. [ 21 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
What kind of reality, martin?
From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117
|
posted 22 March 2008 12:12 PM
quote: It is my understanding that, in realpolitik, the behaviour of Israel does reflect on Jewishness. Some Diaspora Jews criticize Israel, some - many more, in my experience - support it; but there is a relationship of engagement, of responsibility, however qualified. There is no absolute disconnect.
So, if you are a Jewish Shopkeeper in a large ethiopian city, you are connected to Israel and have a responsibility to decry the actions of Israel on a daily basis? This makes no sense. Every Jew must make the decision to support or condemn Israel by themselves, and must not feel obligated to take a position on the issue. [ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
adam stratton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14803
|
posted 22 March 2008 12:22 PM
quote: Don't Muslims face the exact same crap from the Right (and occasionally the Left)? Like having their faith redefined in violent terms by outsiders, and being judged on the basis of the most violent in their midst. This is the same BS, IMHO. And fuck, unionist sticks his neck out with a post about the delicate experience of resisting within one's own community,[etc] One of the Concerned
Indeed. It was none other than unionist who, among other jewels, wrote: quote: Islam is a divisive, destructive, dehumanizing ideology. So sue me
and quote: How strange. In my very first post in this thread, I shit all over Islam and affirmed your right to sue me
Both quotations from here But about Judaism (apparently his own community), he is eager to remind of an "enlightened stream" that supposedly does not exist in Islam: quote: The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism had overwhelmed me, and what could I do but be a good Jew, carrying on the finest legacy of my forebears?
By the way, I didn't know that a 'good Jew' is one who "shit(s) all over Islam". But I keep learning from unionist! [ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]
From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
just one of the concerned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14896
|
posted 22 March 2008 03:02 PM
quote: Originally posted by martin dufresne: Finally, to address a point made earlier: it's not just right-wingers who acknowledge that Muslims are challenged by Islamist violence, which is quite different than to claim - as does the Right - that they are indistinguishable from it.
What does it mean when you say that Muslims are "challenged" by Islamic violence? Remember that most of the Right says they only want "moderate Islam" to assert itself over the terrorists. They almost never say that Islam is indistinguishable from violence. You are just trying to distinguish yourself from the Right. The point is that conflicts in Islam are for Muslims to fix. Our job is to fix islamophobia so life for Muslims can be easier. What do you say? [ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: just one of the concerned ]
From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
adam stratton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14803
|
posted 22 March 2008 03:27 PM
quote: I see what you are saying adam but you are talking about two different worlds. One can certainly be atheist AND Jewish at the same time because Judaism has non-practicing cultures and ethnicities as well and it is not as simply a religion, I think that is what unionist means but I don't want to speak for him. -One of the Concerned
Judaism is the religion of Jewish people. It does have a practicing culture. By "The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism" unionist did not mean the ethnicity but the religion. I hope he could come to clarify his statement, especially in light of his belief that Islam deserves his shitting all over it but Judaism does have an enlightened stream.
From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|