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Author Topic: The ever-popular "self-hating Jew"
lagatta
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posted 21 March 2008 03:52 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oy Gewalt. Can I be a self-hating shiksa?

Selbsthass encore.

Actually, Jüdischeselbsthass has absolutely nothing to do with Israel or Zionism, and is a phenom found among many oppressed or minority groups. Skin-bleaching, anyone?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 21 March 2008 08:15 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But this accusation of "self-hating" is very specific when hurled in the Jewish context. I've faced it for 40 years, since shortly after the 1967 war, when I naively asked, "Why aren't they pulling back now that the war is over?" The accusation at that time was very gentle, but over the years I have faced this attack in various forms - verbally, through the media, from the pulpit (yeah!), and physically. It has never been easy.

My response varied over the years, but the kernel was always the same. I replied that I came to my anti-Zionist and anti-Israel stand precisely from my upbringing in Jewish culture and tradition, and from the experience of my own family as a direct victim of racial discrimination, dispossession of property, ghettoization, and finally physical extermination and genocide.

This tradition, and this experience, taught me that the essence, the soul of the Jewish people has been the Diaspora, the necessity of being one with the nations of the world, of sharing weal and woe with them, of sympathizing with all their struggles for emancipation as if they were are own (because they are our own) - or else cloistering ourselves and facing extinction. The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism had overwhelmed me, and what could I do but be a good Jew, carrying on the finest legacy of my forebears?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 21 March 2008 08:43 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's a strong, moral argument but who gets to define what is a good Jew? Any definition has to be based on consensus and if Israeli Jews elect time and again governments committed to destroying Palestine, it's hard - and morally/intellectually dishonest - to deny that decision that indicts them.
I face the same pressure and dilemma in my pro-feminist work, where the accusation (or psychologizing suspicion) that I "must hate men" comes up time and again.
Another profeminist, Michael Kimmel, addresses this charge approximately as you do, when he claims:
quote:
One can care about and love men and still be critical of the ideology of masculinity. In fact, for many of us, loving men is exactly why we might be critical of masculinity. My goal is to love men enough to be critical of masculinity, to be critical of what we do because I think we are capable of so much better.

For me, however, this is unsufficient. I understand your reference to a tradition of mensches - which I hope is real - but reality beckons with Apache helicopters an missiles raining on Gaza. I think it is an idealist position to claim a priori that men or Jews are absolutely better than the decisions they make here and now to pursue and escalate oppression and self-identification as oppressors. And if Jews collectively and repeatedly choose to embody Zionism - or men, hegemonic masculinity -, then it is not as Jews or men but as justice-loving human beings that it behooves us to NOT love Jews or men unconditionnally, an essentialist stance.
Which is not self-hating, of course, but dissidence, secession from the group.

That's my take so far, but I am eager to have this discussion.

[ 21 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 21 March 2008 09:14 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm out of this discussion.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 March 2008 03:42 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Too bad, unionist, as I thought your response was excellent. It reminded me of the slogans of the Warsaw Ghetto Fighters.

Trying to remember: "Never Again", of course - but the other slogan was what, "For our freedom and yours"? (Yours referred not only to non-Jewish Poles but to everyone fighting Nazism)...

Captured women ghetto fighters


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 22 March 2008 06:20 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know about Bertell Ollman primarily because he is one of the few academics in the English speaking world that specializes in the study of dialectics. Since dialectics is typically presented either as some sort of mechanical triad that makes thinking unnecessary, or as the disfigured version of Soviet times, Ollman's efforts are very helpful to contrast with these caricatures. Ollman, however, is know for more than his study of politics and dialectics.

Letter of Resignation from the Jewish People (no date but clearly a few years old)

This is an autobiographical piece by Bertell Ollman.

quote:
things have reached a point that I want out. The problem is how to do it. One can quit a club, a religion (one can convert), a country (one can take out another citizenship and go live elsewhere), and even a gender (given current medical science), but how do you resign from a people into which you were born?

Notice Ollman is not equating his "resignation" with a religious conversion. This is an important aspect of Jewishness, that some Jewish babblers have also noted, that non-Jews ought to make note of: being Jewish isn't simply a religious identity. It's more than that.

Anyway, back to Ollman:

quote:
From what I've said so far, it would be easy for some to dismiss me as a self-hating Jew, but that would be a mistake. If anything, I am a self-loving Jew, but the Jew I love in me is the Diaspora Jew, the Jew that was blessed for 2,000 years by having no country to call his/her own. That this was accompanied by many cruel disadvantages is well known, but it had one crowning advantage that towered over all the rest.

That advantage, says Ollman, is not suffering as much from love of country when, as a second class citizen in all of them, you don't have a country to love. (pre-Israel) You could think of yourself as a "citizen of the world" even before this concept had a wide currency.

quote:
I'm not saying that this is how most Diaspora Jews actually thought, but some did - Spinoza, Marx, Freud, and Einstein being among the best known - and the opportunity as well as the inclination for others to do so came from the very rejection they all experienced in the countries in which they lived.

Anyway, it's impossible for me to summarize the whole piece. It is part autobiography, part theological history, part history of Diaspora Judaism, and so on. It is also a little dated, so if anyone is aware of developments since Ollman wrote this piece, then it would be helpful to bring that out as well.

Love of Israel? - Jan/Feb 2005

This article is part of a longer debate, during the course of which Ollman, I think, takes exception to this "love" of a government and the consequences of that love. You can read it for yourself but I just wanted to pay attention to one small thing in this piece. Ollman has a brilliant metaphor for right wing views masquerading as left wing views:

quote:
Ollman: Schorsch never moves in one direction without making a head fake in the other.

Ha ha. That's outstanding and I've got to remember that one. Ollman has done some analysis of sports, basketball in particular, and it shows. Here is the full quote:

quote:
Schorsch never moves in one direction without making a head fake in the other. The fake is always in the direction of reasonableness. The real movement is always in support of Israel's policies, stopping every now and then to pat this opponent reassuringly on the back. Everything else is frosting on the cake.

Everything else is just "running up the score", but I'm quibbling with a brilliant metaphor.

Is Anti-Zionism a New Form of Anti-Semitism? April 2003

Ollman critiques the view that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism MUST go together and points out that such views can actually contribute to an increase of anti-Semitism. Ollman also point out that Bush's "Moral" Majority, for example, is full of anti-Semites that are pro-Zionist, which would seem to be evidence in favour of his claim that there is no link between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
adam stratton
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posted 22 March 2008 09:25 AM      Profile for adam stratton        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism had overwhelmed me, and what could I do but be a good Jew, carrying on the finest legacy of my forebears? -unionist

I have deep respect for Judaism, Christianity, Islam (By chronological, not preference order) and whatever people's beliefs or lack thereof might be. I may disagree with some right wing elements but not to paint their religious -or atheist or agnostic- beliefs with a -should I say- less than clean brush.

I learn here that Judaism has an enlightened stream, something the author denies to oher faiths, and that there are good Jews and "bad" Jews, witout providing any (objective) yardsticks.

Too bad he withdrew from the discussion and left only thirst for some elaboration.

[ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]


From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 22 March 2008 09:46 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lagatta, check your Private Messages please.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 March 2008 09:54 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Done and responded.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 09:56 AM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It's a strong, moral argument but who gets to define what is a good Jew? Any definition has to be based on consensus and if Israeli Jews elect time and again governments committed to destroying Palestine, it's hard - and morally/intellectually dishonest - to deny that decision that indicts them.

I'm shocked to read this on a progressive board.

quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
For me, however, this is unsufficient. I understand your reference to a tradition of mensches - which I hope is real - but reality beckons with Apache helicopters an missiles raining on Gaza.
[ 21 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

What kind of reality, martin?


From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 10:07 AM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Inappropriate

[ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: just one of the concerned ]


From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 March 2008 10:45 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it is important to make clear that no person of Jewish origin, or of the Jewish faith, is at all responsible for the actions of the Israeli government unless he or she is actually lending material or ideological support to that government.

Friend of mine in Paris (who wore the yellow star as a little girl) gets livid at the insinuation that she has anything whatsoever to do with Israel.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 11:03 AM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No kidding. I wonder how she'd feel about being "indicted" or of having the definition of a good Jew reformatted.
Don't Muslims face the exact same crap from the Right (and occasionally the Left)? Like having their faith redefined in violent terms by outsiders, and being judged on the basis of the most violent in their midst. This is the same BS, IMHO.

And fuck, unionist sticks his neck out with a post about the delicate experience of resisting within one's own community, and he gets sideswiped by blanket condemnations on his identity and everything he's tried to work for with other Jews, which I'm sure must have been hard. Thanks for your support lagatta, from what I have read of yours it feels like true solidarity.

[ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: just one of the concerned ]


From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 22 March 2008 11:49 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is my understanding that, in realpolitik, the behaviour of Israel does reflect on Jewishness. Some Diaspora Jews criticize Israel, some - many more, in my experience - support it; but there is a relationship of engagement, of responsibility, however qualified. There is no absolute disconnect. Indeed, this seems to me to be the moral foundation of Unionist's courageous position. I apologize if he feels slighted by my attempt to echo it, from my own experience of a male dissident still feeling co-responsible for men's worst actions and taking action on that basis. Any analogy is fallible, but mine is merely an attempt at building bridges of meaning between progressive struggles. There is commonality between Hannah Arendt and Simone de Beauvoir (and much opportunities lost in rhetorical flaming).

[ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 22 March 2008 12:08 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It is my understanding that, in realpolitik, the behaviour of Israel does reflect on Jewishness.

This is one of the more repugnant things I've ever read on babble.


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 March 2008 12:12 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It is my understanding that, in realpolitik, the behaviour of Israel does reflect on Jewishness. Some Diaspora Jews criticize Israel, some - many more, in my experience - support it; but there is a relationship of engagement, of responsibility, however qualified. There is no absolute disconnect.

So, if you are a Jewish Shopkeeper in a large ethiopian city, you are connected to Israel and have a responsibility to decry the actions of Israel on a daily basis? This makes no sense. Every Jew must make the decision to support or condemn Israel by themselves, and must not feel obligated to take a position on the issue.

[ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 22 March 2008 12:21 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
...Every Jew must make the decision to support or condemn Israel by themselves...
Yes that is how I see it too. I am not adding any "personal sense of obligation". The connection exists, beyond discourse.
Wouldn't it be a double standard if it were honourable - as it is - for a Jew to stand up and affirm a sense of responsibility for Israel's actions - as I hear many here doing - but "repugnant" for anyone to acknowledge that this responsibility exists, however individual Jews choose to position themselves or not?

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
adam stratton
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posted 22 March 2008 12:22 PM      Profile for adam stratton        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Don't Muslims face the exact same crap from the Right (and occasionally the Left)? Like having their faith redefined in violent terms by outsiders, and being judged on the basis of the most violent in their midst. This is the same BS, IMHO.
And fuck, unionist sticks his neck out with a post about the delicate experience of resisting within one's own community,[etc] One of the Concerned

Indeed. It was none other than unionist who, among other jewels, wrote:

quote:
Islam is a divisive, destructive, dehumanizing ideology. So sue me

and

quote:
How strange. In my very first post in this thread, I shit all over Islam and affirmed your right to sue me

Both quotations from here

But about Judaism (apparently his own community), he is eager to remind of an "enlightened stream" that supposedly does not exist in Islam:

quote:
The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism had overwhelmed me, and what could I do but be a good Jew, carrying on the finest legacy of my forebears?

By the way, I didn't know that a 'good Jew' is one who "shit(s) all over Islam". But I keep learning from unionist!

[ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]


From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 12:37 PM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I see what you are saying adam but you are talking about two different worlds. One can certainly be atheist AND Jewish at the same time because Judaism has non-practicing cultures and ethnicities as well and it is not as simply a religion, I think that is what unionist means but I don't want to speak for him.

The question of whether all religion is divisive is not really the issue lagatta brought up for discussion. This is about being rejected by others in your community (not necessarily religious community).


From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 March 2008 01:10 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The connection exists, beyond discourse.

It dosen't exist for every Jewish person! If you are a Jew who has never attended a Synagauge with a zionist bent, if you never talk about Israel at home, send money to zionist organiations or travel to Israel, what connection do you have with with the land formerly known as Palistine?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 22 March 2008 01:40 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess it is for Jews to answer that. In my analogy, for men who refuse to let masculinity and masculinists speak for them, the connexion is that of refusing to let one's complicity or silence be used, one of disvestment. To suggest another analogy, it's like that of an abstentionist citizen to the vote. You may not want to vote, but some people insist on not letting someone else vote in their name. Which seems to be what Zionists and a Zionist State do to Jews.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 01:47 PM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In your expert opinion, what does violence from Islamic states or groups teach us about Islam and Muslims?
From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 01:55 PM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And also, what advice can you give them to cleanse themselves of their "complicity", while dealing with Islamophobia at the same time. How could they best do it so it is interpreted perfectly by all non-Muslims and doesn't provide fuel for more of their own oppression?

Don't hold back now.


From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 March 2008 02:01 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I guess it is for Jews to answer that. In my analogy, for men who refuse to let masculinity and masculinists speak for them, the connexion is that of refusing to let one's complicity or silence be used, one of disvestment.

Are you interested in the topic at hand Martin, or do you just want to show off your credentials as A Feminist Man?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 02:09 PM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He says he is of the belief that the global experience of being Jewish is something comparable to the experience of being male, or of absentee voters. I wouldn't know, personally, having never belonged to the last two categories, but since he has successfully rid himself of his maleness and is no longer "complicit" in patriarchy, maybe he can show us how to be more perfect Jews.
From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 22 March 2008 02:39 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am sorry to see you take that tack and will neither adress your straw men nor reciprocate in sarcasm.
I would be very surprised if you didn't see men take stands against male fundamentalism and sexist violence in your environments (regardless of whether they do so as profeminists). My point is that it is incumbent on men to do so. Feel free to ignore the relationship with Israel issues.
Finally, to address a point made earlier: it's not just right-wingers who acknowledge that Muslims are challenged by Islamist violence, which is quite different than to claim - as does the Right - that they are indistinguishable from it.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 March 2008 02:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
My point is that it is incumbent on men to do so.

Standing up against Israel isn't every Jewish person's responsability. You seem to be making the assumption that Zionism is some how branded onto the brain of every Jew, and that they MUST take a position on it.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 03:02 PM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Finally, to address a point made earlier: it's not just right-wingers who acknowledge that Muslims are challenged by Islamist violence, which is quite different than to claim - as does the Right - that they are indistinguishable from it.

What does it mean when you say that Muslims are "challenged" by Islamic violence?

Remember that most of the Right says they only want "moderate Islam" to assert itself over the terrorists. They almost never say that Islam is indistinguishable from violence. You are just trying to distinguish yourself from the Right.

The point is that conflicts in Islam are for Muslims to fix. Our job is to fix islamophobia so life for Muslims can be easier. What do you say?

[ 22 March 2008: Message edited by: just one of the concerned ]


From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
just one of the concerned
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posted 22 March 2008 03:13 PM      Profile for just one of the concerned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Standing up against Israel isn't every Jewish person's responsability. You seem to be making the assumption that Zionism is some how branded onto the brain of every Jew, and that they MUST take a position on it.


Even worse than this insistence is when he said that Jews living in Israel are indicted by the government's disastrous policies, and that we need to face a "reality" about Judaism which he won't exactly elaborate on, and his statement that "the behaviour of Israel does reflect on Jewishness".


From: in the cold outside of the cjc | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
adam stratton
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posted 22 March 2008 03:27 PM      Profile for adam stratton        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I see what you are saying adam but you are talking about two different worlds. One can certainly be atheist AND Jewish at the same time because Judaism has non-practicing cultures and ethnicities as well and it is not as simply a religion, I think that is what unionist means but I don't want to speak for him. -One of the Concerned

Judaism is the religion of Jewish people. It does have a practicing culture.

By "The progressive and enlightened stream of Judaism" unionist did not mean the ethnicity but the religion.

I hope he could come to clarify his statement, especially in light of his belief that Islam deserves his shitting all over it but Judaism does have an enlightened stream.


From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged

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