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Author Topic: Desmond Tutu barred from speaking at a Minnesota University
bigcitygal
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posted 03 October 2007 01:07 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just heard about this. Extremely ridiculous.

quote:

A peace and justice group at St. Thomas University in St. Paul, Minnesota has been forced by the university president to cancel an appearance by Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

The cancellation was accompanied by the removal of the chair of the Justice and Peace Studies program, Prof. Cris Toffolo from her position as chair. She has tenure, but no longer heads the
department.

The university president, Father Dennis Dease, decided against Tutu's appearance after consulting one representative from the local Jewish Community Relations Council and several rabbis affiliated with the university. This, apparently, amounted to a Jewish "consensus" in Father Dease's mind.

The rumor of Tutu's alleged "anti-Semitism" is based entirely on a propaganda campaign waged by the extremist group, the Zionist Organization of America. Though he is outspoken in his criticism of Israel's occupation regime, sometimes even bellicose, Tutu has never displayed anything other than deep concern for all peoples and his sympathy for Palestinians suffering under the yoke of occupation.


Story and link to sign a petition to Father Dease here: jewishvoiceforpeace.org


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 03 October 2007 01:10 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok...ohara and Petsy will be showing up shortly to tell us why this is no big deal. Let's pop some popcorn and wait for the show to begin....
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 03 October 2007 01:31 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm left absolutely speechless as to how a Nobel Peace Laureate and civil rights hero like Tutu could be barred from speaking.

It's ironic that the Zionist movement in the US has lobbied to bar him from speaking for drawing parallels between apartheid South Africa and Israel. Considering that the only other folks who have barred Tutu from speaking were the apartheid rulers of South Africa, US Zionists have drawn a far stronger parallel through their actions between apartheid and Zionism than Tutu ever did with his words.

I don't know what I'm more shocked by, the outrage of barring Tutu or the political ineptitude of US Zionists in trying to squelch Tutu's speaking engagement. American Zionists have done far more damage to their cause than Tutu ever could have.

quote:
Dear friend:Send a letter to the president of the University of St. Thomas urging him to reverse his decision to bar Archbishop Desmond Tutu from speaking at his university.The Justice and Peace Studies program at St. Thomas had arranged for Tutu to speak on their campus this coming spring, but the university president, Father Dennis Dease, countermanded that decision and soon after removed the chair of the Justice and Peace program from her position (she has tenure, so she can't be fired). Archbishop Tutu has been the target of a slanderous campaign against him waged by the extremist group, the Zionist Organization of America because of his outspoken criticism of Israel's harsh measures in its occupation of the Palestinian people. Many Jews agree with his criticism and many who do not still believe he has not only a right to be heard, but that his experience in fighting apartheid makes his an important voice on any social justice issue.Far from being a favor to Jews, actions like this one increase anti-Semitism because they make it appear as if Jews oppose free speech. More importantly, free speech must be defended and promoted on this issue if Palestinians are ever to be free of occupation and if Israelis are ever to lead normal lives. Please join me in urging Father Dease to change course by clicking on the link below.

Click here to send an email protest to the university's president

[ 03 October 2007: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 03 October 2007 02:30 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is a common tactic of supremacist movements. Claiming free speech for your own, say, Daniel Pipes or Netayahoo, while denying it to your critics.

But the Zionists must be given some credit. It is now fashionable to ostracize and silence anti-racist voices such as Tutu in defense of racism and claim the higher moral ground. That is really quite an achievement.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 03 October 2007 02:46 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who is Desmond Tutu to make South African comparisons anyway?
From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 October 2007 03:13 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is where we've come to. God help us.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 03 October 2007 03:49 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is really not a big deal...I mean who really cares that a humanitarian who spoke at Beth Tzedek synagogue and is a notable citizen of the world is thought to be antisemitic. Ok so he is a bit critical of Israeli policy maybe that's why some are so upset. I guess that makes sense. I mean anyone who is critical of Israeli policy has to be an antisemite.
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Coyote
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posted 03 October 2007 03:53 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
uh, what?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 03 October 2007 03:55 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So ohara AGREES that this is wrong?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 03 October 2007 04:03 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
So ohara AGREES that this is wrong?

Apparently, not so much but is perhaps aware of the blow back this will cause!

Can't wait to see Jon when he deals with this tonight or tomorrow.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 October 2007 04:05 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Think he will? Will anyone? Has the MSM even picked this up?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 03 October 2007 04:14 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good for you Ohara...they were trying to bait you and you bit back. It really wouldn't have mattered how you responded the blinders on some posters here only trying to mess with you.

Imagine if it were you or I doing the baiting. Michelle would have been all over us like a dirty sheet.

Really people isn't it time to drop the juvenile baiting tactics? Of course this was a collosolly stupid move. I disagree with Tutu's referencing Israeli policy as apartheid but to ban him on the basis he is an anti-Semite is wrong and stupid.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 October 2007 04:17 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uh, one person did a little baiting. No one else responded to him until ohara did. Down, tiger.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 03 October 2007 04:48 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can understand how ohara and petsy would feeel that "all" the people who post on this board deserve collective punishment after all we have people in our house who actively work against Israeli power. Fortunately the Israeli airforce doesn't have the address so we can only be scolded not exploded.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 03 October 2007 04:54 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kropotkin we have your address
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 03 October 2007 05:14 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If Petsy and ohara sincerely agree that this is wrong I congratulate them for it.

My initial comment was based on their kneejerk tendency to attack anyone who is even mildly critical of any aspect of Israeli policy.

Their defense of the treatment of Norman Finklestein, who has done nothing to deserve the loss of tenure, is a telling example.

However, if they are willing to be a little more openminded and a bit less reflexively dismissive and combative towards honorable people who simply disagree with their views, this is to be welcomed.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 October 2007 05:19 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry, didn't see this thread until now (no one e-mailed me about it either). I've been busy campaigning for MMP.

Anyhow - Ken, that really WAS out of line, and you know people would have screamed if ohara or Petsy had done it.

I knew right away when I read ohara's first post that he was putting us on, and started laughing.

If you don't want Petsy and ohara to do it, then the rest of you can't do it either.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 03 October 2007 05:39 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it was right to ban Tutu - isn't he an Anglican?

ETA:

WHOOOOOPS!

I forgot my emoticon:

[ 03 October 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 03 October 2007 05:46 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I encourage everyone to write to the university president and urge him to reverse his decision. Ohara, if you could share your information about Tutu addressing Beth Tzedec and identify yourself as a CJC member that would be very helpful. If you could encourage the CJC to speak out on this that would be even more helpful. (I'm not trying to bait you, I'm being quite serious, if "mainstream" Jewish activists and groups speak out it would be a very good thing)

Write the College president here


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 03 October 2007 05:48 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Join the "Let Tutu Speak!" facebook group
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 03 October 2007 06:00 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, Michelle, sorry.

The remark was meant partly as comic relief, but still, I could've held back I guess.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 03 October 2007 06:24 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
I encourage everyone to write to the university president and urge him to reverse his decision. Ohara, if you could share your information about Tutu addressing Beth Tzedec and identify yourself as a CJC member that would be very helpful. If you could encourage the CJC to speak out on this that would be even more helpful. (I'm not trying to bait you, I'm being quite serious, if "mainstream" Jewish activists and groups speak out it would be a very good thing)

Write the College president here



All Jewish organizations are closed for Shemini Hatzerth and Simchat Torah...no one around to even speak with till Tuesday.

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Sven
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posted 03 October 2007 07:33 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the Star Tribune Newspaper of the Twin Cities.

I read the text of Tutu's 2002 speech, which was linked to in the article.

I thought it was a pretty good speech.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 03 October 2007 09:12 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahmadinejad must have bumped him. I hear he's on tour.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 October 2007 06:10 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Doug Hennes, vice president for university and government relations at St. Thomas, said the Rev. Dennis Dease, St. Thomas' president, made the final decision not to invite Tutu after consulting with his staff.

"He [Tutu] has been critical of Israel and Israeli policy regarding the Palestinians, so we talked with people in the Jewish community and they said they believed it would be hurtful to the Jewish community, because of things he's said," Hennes said.

A leader of the international group that was to sponsor Tutu's visit blasted the university's decision.

"This is a tragedy for the entire community of Minneapolis-St. Paul and indeed for the entire state of Minnesota," said Ivan Suvanjieff, president and co-founder of PeaceJam, based in Colorado. "Archbishop Desmond Tutu is a towering moral arbiter of our day. He has worked tirelessly on a global basis in the name of human rights and all that is decent."


quote:
Marv Davidov, a longtime peace activist who teaches at St. Thomas, expressed dismay that Tutu had not been invited and that Toffolo had lost her position.

"I am Jewish, and stifling debate and dissent [and] criticism of Israel is a disservice to all Jews, the state of Israel and the American people," he said.


St. Thomas won't host Tutu


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 October 2007 06:14 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Banning Desmond Tutu

quote:
in a move that still has faculty members shaking their heads in disbelief, St. Thomas administrators—concerned that Tutu's appearance might offend local Jews—told organizers that a visit from the archbishop was out of the question.

"We had heard some things he said that some people judged to be anti-Semitic and against Israeli policy," says Doug Hennes, St. Thomas's vice president for university and government relations. "We're not saying he's anti-Semitic. But he's compared the state of Israel to Hitler and our feeling was that making moral equivalencies like that are hurtful to some members of the Jewish community."

St. Thomas officials made this inference after Hennes talked to Julie Swiler, a spokeswoman for the Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota and the Dakotas.

"I told him that I'd run across some statements that were of concern to me," says Swiler. "In a 2002 speech in Boston, he made some comments that were especially hurtful."

During that speech, titled "Occupation Is Oppression," Tutu lambasted the Israeli government for its treatment of Palestinians in occupied territories. While a transcription clearly suggests his criticism was aimed at the Israeli government ("We don't criticize the Jewish people," he said during the speech. "We criticize, we will criticize when they need to be criticized, the government of Israel"), pro-Israeli organizations such as the Zionist Organization of America went on the offensive and protested campus appearances by Tutu, accusing him of anti-Semitism.

Hennes says the input officials received from "the Jewish community" in this case was confined to Swiler and a few rabbis teaching within St. Thomas's Center for Jewish-Christian Learning. "I think there's a consensus in the Jewish community that his words were offensive," Swiler reiterates.

That was news to Marv Davidov, an adjunct professor within the Justice and Peace Studies program.

"As a Jew who experienced real anti-Semitism as a child, I'm deeply disturbed that a man like Tutu could be labeled anti-Semitic and silenced like this," he says. "I deeply resent the Israeli lobby trying to silence any criticism of its policy. It does a great disservice to Israel and to all Jews."


quote:
"This is pure bullshit," says Davidov. "As far as fighting for civil rights, I consider Tutu to be my brother. And I consider Cris Toffolo to be my sister. They're messing with my family here. If Columbia permits a Holocaust denier [Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad] to speak at their university, why are St. Thomas officials refusing to let Tutu, an apostle of nonviolence, speak at ours?"

Davidov and other professors maintain that the situation at St. Thomas is emblematic of a larger issue.

"What happened at the University of St. Thomas is not an isolated event," says Toffolo. "Until we have an honest debate about U.S. policy related to Israel, and about Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories, the spiral of violence will continue."



From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2007 06:20 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, golly, his visit might be "hurtful" to some people.

I guess they might as well just close the university down now. After all, teaching evolution could be "hurtful" to certain communities.

I mean, what is academic freedom when compared to some "hurt feelings"?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 October 2007 06:21 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe Archbishop Tutu could be invited to the International Peace Garden up at the border between the U.S. and Canada between North Dakota and Manitoba. We'd love to have him up here ... and it seems an entirely appropriate venue for a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 October 2007 08:35 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is the logical extension of the entire "New antisemitism" fallacy. If criticizing the state of Israel and Zionism as racist and comparing it to apartheid is an example of the "new antisemitism" and the "new antisemitism" is equivalent to the old antisemitism then obviously Tutu should be banned from speaking and the Zionist Organization of America's vilification campaign against him is completely justified.

The problem is being anti-Zionist is not a form of antisemitism and treating the two as if they are the same only debases the meaning of actual antisemitism. As Brian Klug says:

quote:
[W]hen anti-Semitism is everywhere, it is nowhere. And when every anti-Zionist is an anti-Semite, we no longer know how to recognize the real thing--the concept of anti-Semitism loses its significance.

From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 04 October 2007 12:36 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I signed the petition in favour of Bishop Tutu.

I think he is anti-Zionist, not anti-semitic.

To me, it is obvious that SOME people who claim to be anti-zionists are, in fact, antisemites who are hiding behind a more honourable label.

But many anti-zionists don't have an anti-semitic bone in their bodies.

The trick is to figure out who is who. To me, Tutu is well on the correct side of the line.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 October 2007 01:00 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Those remarks would be more helpful Jeff, and seen as even-handed, if you could share your views on which Zionists are "on the correct side of the line" as well. But I very much doubt that such remarks will be forthcoming. Tell me I'm wrong.
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Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 01:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes it would be nice to know which Zionists are not also anti-Arab racists.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 October 2007 01:20 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
SHHHHH! An apologist was speaking. I haven't heard the apology yet.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 October 2007 01:21 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball, check your PMs.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 October 2007 01:47 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Last year, I agreed to speak to a Jewish youth group about my organization, Jewish Voice for Peace, and our opposition to Israel’s occupation. My talk was to follow one from a member of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which calls itself “America’s pro-Israel Lobby.”

A week before, a shaken program leader said the AIPAC staffer had threatened to get the entire youth program’s funding canceled if I was allowed in the door. The threat worked, and in disgust, they canceled the whole talk.



Dissenting at your own risk

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 01:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is her web site: muzzlewatch.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 04 October 2007 02:02 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes it would be nice to know which Zionists are not also anti-Arab racists.
People like Clay Ruby who is a Zionist is not an anti+Arab racist

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 02:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, I know Clay Ruby and I think he is not a racist, just unwise. More names for the list please.

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 04 October 2007 02:10 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes it would be nice to know which Zionists are not also anti-Arab racists.

Cueball, let me say this very gently. I know lots of Israelis who are Zionists (I have no idea what your definition of Zionist is) and who are no more anti-Arab racist than the average Canadian is anti-Muslim racist - in fact, I know some that are far less "racist" than some people who post on this board.

You see, there are many Zionists who deeply oppose the Occupation, the treatment of Palestinians as dirt, the constant aggression, even the Law of Return and other aspects of ethnocentrism in the state of Israel - but they still see Israel as their homeland etc., though not to the exclusion of Palestinian Arabs and other residents.

If in fact all "Zionists" (in the proper meaning of the word) were anti-Arab racists, then peace in the Middle East will never happen without massacres or ethnic cleansing or mass deportations. So let's all hope that your apparent pessimism is wrong.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 02:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's interesting. So you are saying that in fact continually "inputing" that there are numerous unnamed racists, within a group that shares a political belief amounts to slander?

I mean, I can definitely find numerous Zionist who are extremely racist.

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 04 October 2007 02:18 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
This is the logical extension of the entire "New antisemitism" fallacy. If criticizing the state of Israel and Zionism as racist and comparing it to apartheid is an example of the "new antisemitism" and the "new antisemitism" is equivalent to the old antisemitism then obviously Tutu should be banned from speaking and the Zionist Organization of America's vilification campaign against him is completely justified.

The problem is being anti-Zionist is not a form of antisemitism and treating the two as if they are the same only debases the meaning of actual antisemitism.


That is very well stated.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 04 October 2007 02:21 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Zionists who are not anti-Arab racists; Dr Phil Berger, Todd Gitlin, Michelle Landsberg, Rabbi Arthur Bielfeld, Alan Borovoy, Bernie Farber, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Professor Ernie Lightman, Professor Irving Abella, Janet Solberg,.........and many many more

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Petsy ]


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 04 October 2007 02:21 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
To me, it is obvious that SOME people who claim to be anti-zionists are, in fact, antisemites who are hiding behind a more honourable label.

Sure - some U.S. neo-Nazi cultists. Other than that, your charge is just a slightly veiled vicious slander culled from the hymnbook of the defenders of Israeli aggression, racism, and assassination.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 04 October 2007 02:23 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Sure - some U.S. neo-Nazi cultists. Other than that, your charge is just a slightly veiled vicious slander culled from the hymnbook of the defenders of Israeli aggression, racism, and assassination.


Oh i dont know ...Ahdiminijad would certainly in my view fit Jeff's description pretty well

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Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 02:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Netanyahoo, Sharon, Ze'vi.
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ohara
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posted 04 October 2007 02:25 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball you of course cannot resist baiting...
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Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 02:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Baiting? No I am responding to this:

quote:
To me, it is obvious that SOME people who claim to be anti-zionists are, in fact, antisemites who are hiding behind a more honourable label.

To me, it is obvious that SOME people who claim to be Zionist are, in fact, racists who are hiding behind a more honourable label.

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 October 2007 02:33 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apparently, being even-handed is a lot more difficult than those who routinely call for it, in relation to the conflict in Israel/Palestine, say it is. An interesting discussion.
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unionist
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posted 04 October 2007 02:34 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Oh i dont know ...Ahdiminijad would certainly in my view fit Jeff's description pretty well

You think he's more anti-Semitic than George W. Bush? Give me an honest answer.


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unionist
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posted 04 October 2007 02:37 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
That's interesting. So you are saying that in fact continually "inputing" that there are numerous unnamed racists, within a group that shares a political belief amounts to slander?

Whom are you addressing this to? I never said anything about slander. Lots of self-styled Zionists are viciously racist and anti-Arab - let's start with the main political parties in Israel and many so-called "Jewish" organizations in North America for starters.

But "Zionist" is really the wrong label for these people.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 04 October 2007 02:40 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
To me, it is obvious that SOME people who claim to be anti-zionists are, in fact, antisemites who are hiding behind a more honourable label.

But many anti-zionists don't have an anti-semitic bone in their bodies.

The trick is to figure out who is who. To me, Tutu is well on the correct side of the line.


quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Those remarks would be more helpful Jeff, and seen as even-handed, if you could share your views on which Zionists are "on the correct side of the line" as well. But I very much doubt that such remarks will be forthcoming. Tell me I'm wrong.

One cannot necessarily divine that line of separation regarding any particular individual.

But, at a macro level, most people would likely concede that the probability is extremely remote that an anti-Semitic is not also anti-Zionist. Therefore, there are anti-Zionists who are anti-Semitic. Given that anti-Semitic views are seen by most Canadians as being negative, it seems entirely plausible that there are people who are both anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic but who will only admit to anti-Zionism (i.e., to use Jeff’s words, “antisemites who are hiding behind a more honourable label”).

That all being said, that conclusion is not a very useful tool with which to determine which anti-Zionists are also anti-Semitic. One would have to look for other evidence of anti-Semitism other than merely being anti-Zionist.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 02:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Whom are you addressing this to? I never said anything about slander. Lots of self-styled Zionists are viciously racist and anti-Arab - let's start with the main political parties in Israel and many so-called "Jewish" organizations in North America for starters.

But "Zionist" is really the wrong label for these people.


They call themselves Zionists. You don't think its a kind of slander, to constantly refer in an oblique fashion to an unamed, unaccounted for group of racists within the group?

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 04 October 2007 03:17 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But, at a macro level, most people would likely concede that the probability is extremely remote that an anti-Semitic is not also anti-Zionist

Although, weirdly enough, a lot of U.S. Republican Evangelicals and even a fair amount of the "Canadian" Tories manage to be Zionist and, at the same time, basically antisemitic.

They back Israel in the hopes of jump-starting
"The Last Days", the glorious moment when they get to tell the conservative Jewish people who've mistakenly allied themselves with the North American"Christian" Right that they must now CONVERT or DIE.

In the short run, some of them probably hope that Israel's existence will prompt the Jews to move OUT of North America.

And their political ancestors, in many cases, led the fight to exclude Jewish and other antifascist refugees from Hitler from sanctuary in North America.

No Jewish person should EVER trust a "Christian Zionist".

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 04 October 2007 03:42 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

You think he's more anti-Semitic than George W. Bush? Give me an honest answer.


Yes without a doubt

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unionist
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posted 04 October 2007 03:49 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Yes without a doubt

Very interesting. At least you didn't deny that Bush - yimach shmo v'zichro - is an anti-Semite. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there may be hope yet.

As for Ahmedinejad, I don't know what he thinks about Jews. I only know what evil people attribute to him with warmongering aims. My personal initial conclusion is that he is an idiot and an extremely opportunistic politician - a dangerous man, because he's playing with really dangerous opponents and isn't in their league.

But a danger to Israel? To Jews? to the region? That's Bush-Netanyahu talk. It's so foolish that only billions of dollars and compliant media could make even a little bit of it stick.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 04 October 2007 04:13 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Adiwhatever is a clever Holocaust denier, anyone who denies the brutal murder of 6 million Jews is an anti-Semite
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Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 04:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Quote the "denial" please.
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Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 October 2007 04:18 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, and if someone wants to use his alleged comments to whip up hate and support for the mass murder of Iranians, what does that make him and those who support that war mongering?

And if others call for a nuclear holocaust against Iranians what are they? Would they be racists?

How many Americans, Israelis, and Zionists support war against Iran under the pretext that a man with little actual power is an anti-semite? What are those people?

[ 04 October 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 October 2007 04:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh come on! Everybody knows the Bush family has had special affection for Jews and Europeans alike since at least Prescott Bush and probably back as far as Samuel Bush. They wanted to make money with Jewish people in places like Silesia and Kracow during WWII. Or was it a plan to use Jewish labour? I forget which now, but it could have been they were exercising their right to use scab labour leading up to and during WWII. Forensic historians are still studying the issues.

And it seems Ahmadinejad, in this American news broadcast, carefully but deliberately skirted around the issue of the Holocaust in order to ask what it has to do with systematic oppresion of five million Palestinians today? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 October 2007 05:05 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We're getting off topic here.
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 October 2007 05:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are right.

So Jeff, exactly how many anti-semites did you say their were operating out of the State Department, and when can we see the list?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 October 2007 05:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They don't want Tutu because he's a socialist. Every once in a while the hawks get paranoid about red menace and put the kibosh to socialist speeches in the U.S. It's not complicated.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 04 October 2007 10:45 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Adiwhatever is a clever Holocaust denier, anyone who denies the brutal murder of 6 million Jews is an anti-Semite

In his Columbia speech, the Iranian president acknowledged that the Holocaust occurred and that it was a monstrous act. Therefore, it is no longer valid to call him a "Holocaust Denier".

It's enough to call him a batshit crazy right-wing extremist and possible closet case.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 10 October 2007 08:24 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ADL demands that Tutu be permitted to speak
JTA

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aka Mycroft
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posted 10 October 2007 10:28 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
ADL demands that Tutu be permitted to speak
JTA

This is outrageous:

quote:
"Desmond Tutu is an anti-Semite who hates Jews and is obsessed with demeaning and smearing the Jewish state," said Morton Klein, president of the Zionist Organization of America.

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Petsy
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posted 10 October 2007 10:38 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And guess what aka? The ADL agrees with you.
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quelar
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posted 10 October 2007 10:50 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can't we just ignore moron's like Klein and move on?

Clearly he doesn't speak for a majority of anyone but his own fool mind.


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Petsy
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posted 10 October 2007 11:07 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agree wholeheartedly
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 10 October 2007 01:33 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
And guess what aka? The ADL agrees with you.

They haven't actually said anything regarding the ZOA being beyond the Pale. I'm glad the ADL agrees Tutu should be able to speak but have they actually condemned Klein and the ZOA for defaming him? It's time for the mainstream Jewish community to openly dissociate itself from the zealots of the ZOA. The ZOA isn't some fringe group, it's the American affiliate of the World Zionist Organization. Maybe the WZO should expel them?

[ 10 October 2007: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Will Hiscock
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posted 10 October 2007 01:47 PM      Profile for Will Hiscock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just sent a letter re:JVP, and 10 mins after getting confirmation, got a 2nd email saying the letters worked - Tutu has been reinvited.

Good work everyone! I guess letters can actually work, just not often


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aka Mycroft
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posted 10 October 2007 02:40 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From Jewish Voices for Peace:
quote:
We have just learned that the president of the University of St. Thomas acknowledged he made the wrong decision and invited Archbishop Tutu to campus!

Your letters worked! Thanks to you, we generated over 2,700 letters of protest. Please support our work.

With your help, we kept the issue on the news and the editorial pages of a number of local, national, and international newspapers (see a partial list below), including an op-ed published today by JVP's Cecilie Surasky and Mitchell Plitnick. This op-ed in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune finally demolishes the myth that Tutu compared Israel to Hitler, putting the libel to rest in an American paper for the first time.

The Anti-Defamation League came out with a statement yesterday in support of Archbishop Tutu. After an exchange of letters between JVP and the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), which mistakenly attributed the false quote to Tutu, the JTA reported today that the Zionist Organization of America incorrectly quoted Archbishop Desmond Tutu as comparing Israel to Hitler and apartheid, despite the ZOA's protests to the contrary.

At the same time, eighteen member's of the university's law faculty released a letter urging the university to reissue the invitation.
Help us to continue doing our work.
With your help, Jewish Voice for Peace spearheaded a true voice of reason—a voice of Jews and allies that oppose censorship and will not stand idle when people of conscience are falsely called anti-Semitic simply for opposing the policies of the Israeli occupation. Help us to continue doing our work.

Thanks!



From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 10 October 2007 02:41 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
UST president says he made wrong decision, invites Tutu to campus

quote:
Father Dennis Dease, president of the University of St. Thomas, has asked that the letter below be sent to St. Thomas students, faculty and staff:

Dear members of the St. Thomas community,

One of the strengths of a university is the opportunity that it provides to speak freely and to be open to other points of view on a wide variety of issues. And, I might add, to change our minds.

Therefore, I feel both humbled and proud to extend an invitation to Archbishop Desmond Tutu to speak at the University of St. Thomas.

I have wrestled with what is the right thing to do in this situation, and I have concluded that I made the wrong decision earlier this year not to invite the archbishop. Although well-intentioned, I did not have all of the facts and points of view, but now I do.

PeaceJam International may well choose to keep the alternative arrangements that it has made for its April 2008 conference, but I want the organization and Archbishop Tutu to know that we would be honored to hold the conference at St. Thomas.

In any event, St. Thomas will extend an invitation to Archbishop Tutu to participate in a forum to foster constructive dialogue on the issues that have been raised. I hope he accepts my invitation. The Jewish Community Relations Council of Minnesota and the Dakotas has agreed to serve as a co-sponsor of the forum, and I expect other organizations also to join as co-sponsors.

Details about issues to be addressed will be determined later, but I would look forward to a candid discussion about how a civil and democratic society can pursue reasoned debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and other emotionally charged issues.

I also want to encourage a thoughtful examination of St. Thomas’ policies regarding controversial speech and controversial speakers. In the past, we have been criticized externally and internally when we have invited controversial speakers to campus – as well as when we have not. Rather than just move from controversy to controversy, might there be a positive role that this university could play in fostering thoughtful conversation around difficult and highly charged issues? We also might explore how to more clearly express in our policies and practices our commitment to civility when discussing such issues.

I have asked Dr. Nancy Zingale, professor of political science and my former executive adviser, to oversee the planning for the forum. If you have suggestions regarding either the topic or other participants, please contact her at [email protected]

I sincerely hope Archbishop Tutu will accept our invitation. I continue to have nothing but the utmost respect for his witness of faith, for his humanitarian accomplishments and especially for his leadership in helping to end apartheid in South Africa.

Sincerely,

Father Dennis Dease

President



From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 October 2007 02:42 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Will Hiscock:
I just sent a letter re:JVP, and 10 mins after getting confirmation, got a 2nd email saying the letters worked - Tutu has been reinvited.

Good work everyone! I guess letters can actually work, just not often


Will, you must be some letter writer! Do you take requests?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 October 2007 03:15 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ZOA defends Tutu news release that contained incorrect quotes

For several years now the "quotes" in the ZOA's press release have been used as part of a right wing campaign to smear Desmond Tutu. Turns out the quotes are fakes. The ZOA is truly contemptible.

quote:
The president of the Zionist Organization of America is defending his organization's use of a press release that incorrectly quotes Archbishop Desmond Tutu as comparing Israel to Hitler and apartheid.

The ZOA's release, dated April 29, 2002, gained unexpected attention last week after it emerged that Tutu had his appearance at a Minnesota university canceled over remarks he delivered just weeks before the ZOA's release.

According to the ZOA, Ha'aretz reported that at a pro-Palestinian conference in Boston, Tutu said that "Israel is like Hitler and apartheid." The release also quotes Tutu as saying that "critics of Israel are being smeared."

In fact, neither quote appears in the report from Ha'aretz, nor do they appear in a transcript of Tutu's speech posted on the Internet.


quote:
Klein told JTA that he didn't see a problem using quotations that aren't strictly accurate if they reflect the essence of a speaker's intentions.

"I frankly don't see the harm done when our encapsulation promotes what his statements essentially said," Klein said. "I see no harm in it."



From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 October 2007 03:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Klein told JTA that he didn't see a problem using quotations that aren't strictly accurate if they reflect the essence of a speaker's intentions.

"I frankly don't see the harm done when our encapsulation promotes what his statements essentially said," Klein said. "I see no harm in it."


Ergo, I can fairly quote Klein here as saying, "I am a fascist and a liar"?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 10 October 2007 07:18 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ergo, I can fairly quote Klein here as saying, "I am a fascist and a liar"?

So he acknowledges he is a fascist and a liar! Well, I hope he is never allowed to speak in our country.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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