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Author Topic: Should we defeat spy satellites?
nister
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7709

posted 28 September 2006 08:45 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
China has been "blinding" American spy satellites as they pass overhead, using a powerful laser. No harm befalls the satellite, as best I can determine; if that is indeed the case, should Canada follow suit? Satellite tracking is easy-peasy, as they have pre-determined course and speed.

Many satellites traverse a circumpolar route, which presents Canada with an additional advantage..we can bolster our arctic claims with a military presence while optimizing our laser's efficiency.

I don't want to focus on American satellites especially; I do feel we have the right to deny any country information gathered without our consent.

So: do babblers object to defensive, non-destructive systems?


From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
glasstech
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posted 28 September 2006 10:18 AM      Profile for glasstech     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting. From wence do you get your information?
Hitting a satellite moving at several thousnd miles per hour and keeping a laser trained on it would be a real feat of engineering.
The optics in those things are also very sensitive. I would think that a high powered laser shining on the pixels would certainly damage something?

From: Whitehorse, Yukon | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
sgm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5468

posted 28 September 2006 10:31 AM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a source.

It's not exactly clear what capabilities the Chinese have, according to the story, although it doesn't surprise me that some have already started using China's actions to stir up fears of its military and space programs.

Canada should not, in my opinion, contribute to the further militarization or eventual weaponization of space. We should, in fact, be putting restrictions on how satellites like RADARSAT are used, to make sure that information or maps derived from them are not misused by those to whom they're sold.

[ 28 September 2006: Message edited by: sgm ]


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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Babbler # 7709

posted 28 September 2006 10:52 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Canada should not, in my opinion, contribute to the further militarization and weaponization of space." Is that what we would be doing, sgm, by thwarting the objective without harming the satellite?
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 28 September 2006 01:54 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I think it would.

The practice you're describing--temporarily blinding a satellite with a laser--is an 'offensive counterspace operation' (OCS) according to the United States Air Force Counterspace Doctrine document, released in 2004.

quote:
Offensive counterspace operations preclude an adversary from exploiting space to their advantage. OCS operations may target an adversary’s space capability (space system, forces, information links, or third party space capability), using a variety of permanent and/or reversible means. The “Five D’s”—deception, disruption, denial, degradation, and destruction—are the possible desired effects when targeting an adversary’s space capability.

So what we're talking about here is the use of a directed energy weapon (DEW, the laser) to achieve the effect of 'denial': as you say, it's temporary and possibly harmless to the satellite, but it would still be a bad idea for Canada to accelerate trends in this direction, in my view.

For one thing, notice the sequence leading from denial to degradation to destruction in the Air Force definition. If someone builds a DEW capable of 'denying' use of a space-based surveillance system, someone else will likely counter by creating a system that can survive the denial attempt, if the stakes are high enough.

That could lead, in turn, to the 'denier' become a 'degrader' and the 'degrader' eventually a 'destroyer.'

Not a happy prospect.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see some rather alarmist American reaction to this story about the Chinese DEW, particularly from the usual suspects in the US military space program who insist the US must retain and extend its 'dominance' or 'supremacy' in space (these are their actual words).

The space 'supremacists' are quite likely to take this Chinese story as evidence that a new space-weapons race is on, and act accordingly. Great news for Boeing and Raytheon (and maybe their Canadian associates), bad news for the rest of us.

Another reason I wouldn't want to see Canada accelerating the pace of such a race with a DEW-denial weapon is because the innocent-sounding 'denial' technology could likely be modified for other purposes as well, some less innocent.

The document I link to above has this to say about DEWs:

quote:
DEWs, such as lasers, may be land, sea, air, or space based. Depending on the power level used, DEWs are capable of a wide range of effects against on-orbit spacecraft, including: heating, blinding optics, degradation, and destruction. Under certain circumstances, lasers may also be effective against space launch vehicles while in-flight.

DEWs--even ground-based ones that only temporarily blind--could thus be modified to achieve other, less harmless ends.

Furthermore, in a moment of crisis, how is the 'enemy' to know its satellite is only being jammed or blinded, and not destroyed. Unless they have an excellent 'space situational awareness' capability, they may not know, and may react in a way the 'blinder' doesn't expect or intend.

Recall, too, that any ground station basing such a 'blinding' laser would itself become a military target to the nation owning (or maybe just relying on) the 'blinded' satellite.

The Iraqis at one point made a crude attempt at jamming GPS signals in the hopes of undercutting the American advantage with satellite-guided 'precision' weapons: the jamming station was bombed.

The crudity of the Iraqi attempt and the primitive state of their 'anti-satellite' capability did not, of course, prevent the space-hawks in the US from citing the effort as justification for taking the measures necessary to retain and extend 'space supremacy.'

Rather than play such games, I think Canada's efforts would be better spent in reducing, rather than escalating the militarization of space.

And certainly, we should continue to oppose any steps that could lead to a space arms race, as we have traditionally done at the UN Conference on Disarmament in support of the PAROS process (Prevention of an Arms Race in Outer Space).

Unfortunately, this process has been stalled for some time, principally by a country which sees no need for the proposed treaty.

Guess who?


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 28 September 2006 02:11 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What if Predators overflew our sensitive sites with no other intent than info gathering..would you allow that?
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 28 September 2006 02:29 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't understand the question: I thought we were talking about satellites, and suddenly I've got a Predator drone watching my 'sensitive sites.'

First, what would a Predator be doing flying over 'sensitive' Canadian sites, unless it were part of some agreed-upon drill or exercise? Are you expecting an attack from the Americans?

Second, how would the laser technology you're talking about affect the Predator aircraft? Are you talking about trying to interfere with the aircraft's satellite link in some way?

Returning to orbit, I assume from your first post that your principal concern is about others gathering information about Canada without our consent.

That principle brings me to a third question: if we're allowed to interfere with others' satellites as they cross our territory, are other countries allowed to interfere with ours, like RADARSAT, as it gathers information to produce maps for military use?

[ETA: This is a timely thread, since Keep Space for Peace Week starts on October 1!]

[ 28 September 2006: Message edited by: sgm ]


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 28 September 2006 02:51 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Still going to have to do research as this is an interesting topic. Feasibility wise (hitting a sattelite with a laser and blind it) doesn't seem too bad... Assuming it's a clear line from the laser to the sattelite (Heh, think it'll blind birds unlucky enough to fly over too?)


quote:
The practice you're describing--temporarily blinding a satellite with a laser--is an 'offensive counterspace operation' (OCS) according to the United States Air Force Counterspace Doctrine document, released in 2004.

Heh, lasers used to blind our satellites spying on you is an offensive action! Leave it up to the USAF to come up with fair rules no? Any military doctrine devloped during the Bush era should be considered irrevlavent and stupid at best ^^


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
nister
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Babbler # 7709

posted 28 September 2006 07:17 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, forget the Predator..what of the premise that the best way to deal with intrusive behavior is to roll with it. I'm pretty sure we can discriminate which are dedicated spy satellites, and if it's feasible to put a stop to their mission, the nation is obliged to do so.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged

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