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Author Topic: Presidential Debate 3
Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 12:38 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just about five hours away from the final debate - will McCain refer to his rival tonight again as "That one"? Polls everywhere show McCain trailing Obama, some by as much 7 points, and I think I heard on CNN last night that Obama has sewn up the electoral college votes he needs.
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West Coast Greeny
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posted 15 October 2008 01:14 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
7 points? That's the average Obama lead these days. A CBS poll showed Obama ahead... 53-39.
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500_Apples
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posted 15 October 2008 01:37 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He's going to talk about Bill Ayers, planetariums and communism.
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aka Mycroft
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posted 15 October 2008 01:38 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
He's going to talk about Bill Ayers, planetariums and communism.

You know, I always suspected that planetaria with incubators of communism.


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djelimon
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posted 15 October 2008 01:42 PM      Profile for djelimon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's going to be fun I think. Obama forced McCain to promise his lunatic fringe to bring up Ayers in the debate, by saying McCain was afraid to say it to his face. Brilliant idea, in my opinion. After all, everything they're nattering on about has been thoroughly debunked months ago, on the MSM, even. Of course, now the old footage will get a ratings boost, and the media will play ball. Obama's learned a lot from the primaries, imo...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/05/presidential-debate-moder_n_117048.html


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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 02:07 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by djelimon:
It's going to be fun I think. Obama forced McCain to promise his lunatic fringe to bring up Ayers in the debate, by saying McCain was afraid to say it to his face. Brilliant idea, in my opinion. After all, everything they're nattering on about has been thoroughly debunked months ago, on the MSM, even. Of course, now the old footage will get a ratings boost, and the media will play ball. Obama's learned a lot from the primaries, imo...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/05/presidential-debate-moder_n_117048.html[/Q UOTE]

Heh yeah it should be interesting to see if McCain does actually bring it up. He's in a total damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I'm sure Obama has a plan for dealing with it, he no doubt had one last debate as well. I'm wondering what Obama's response is going to be. He has numerous different ways of dealing with it including a whole laundry list of associations that he could play around with.

If McCain doesn't bring it up then he's screwed himself with his base supporters. They were furious enough last time that he wimped out. They don't want just Ayers brought up, they want every single nutjob rumor and story brought up, convinced that "If the people would just hear all these things then everyone will flock to McCain in an instant."

The fact is that the MSM has been talking about Ayers for a couple of weeks now. They've been talking about whether they should be talking about Ayers and they've been talking about other people talking about Ayers and they've been talking around and around about whether McCain and Palin should be talking about Ayers and what it all means stategically to be talking about Ayers. These past few days have see the MSM now talking about how talking about Ayers doesn't seem to be making any inroads with people so maybe talking about Ayers isn't such a good thing."

Now though they appear to have moved on and are talking about ACORN. See the basic pattern above to get an idea of how that is going.


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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 05:51 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
less than ten minutes away - got the popcorn ready....
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:00 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney are in the audience according to CNN - are debating if Bill is really on the Obama bandwagon...
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:01 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
News veteran Bob Schieffer is the moderator...
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 06:05 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney are in the audience according to CNN - are debating if Bill is really on the Obama bandwagon...

Clinton is apparently going to be one of Obama's after the debate spin alley surrogates tonight.


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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:05 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
McCain - "Americans are angry, angry, angry, angry..." referring to economic times
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:07 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Obama - need rescue pakage for the middle class, not just Wall Street
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:10 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good sparring back and forth on tax plans...
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:14 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Joe the Plumber...."

Turning into a snooze fest....


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bagkitty
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posted 15 October 2008 06:16 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why do John McCain's eyes look like he is channeling Jack Nicholson in the Shining?
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:21 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Idiot McCain mentioned the 3 million for an overhead projector in Obama's district - McCain is making shit up...
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 06:22 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well look Boom Boom you have to dig down into the amazing and intelligent subliminal messaging that McCain is putting out here. "Joe Six Pack" is now "Joe the Plumber" He got a job! Ergo, the economy really isn't that bad. Get it? He's being really tricky...but I'm on to him. *sagenod*
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:25 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
- arguing who has the better record as a reformer...
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:31 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Holy cow! McCain is looking at Obama this time, and directing comments to him to his face - finally!
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:38 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Asshole McCain smirking after bringing up Ayers and ACORN..... Obama on the defensive, doing a good job...
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:41 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The moderator is letting McCain get away with really outrageous shit...
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 06:57 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He brought up Ayers? Crap I missed it I had to go outside and deal with the dogs. Geez, figures...
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windsorworker
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posted 15 October 2008 06:59 PM      Profile for windsorworker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
McCain in a fraud....he unbeleivably bad in this debate.
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 06:59 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
McCain is truly scary - overlooks intimidation and assassinations of labour leaders in Columbia to get a free trade agreement there...
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windsorworker
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posted 15 October 2008 07:00 PM      Profile for windsorworker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joe the farmer now???
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 07:02 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by windsorworker:
Joe the farmer now???

Joe is a multi-talented guy I guess.


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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 07:03 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
God help us all if McCain becomes Prez...
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 07:04 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Hey Joe - you're rich - congratulations!"
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 07:06 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is it just my bias or is McCain coming across as totally, angry, bitter and somewhat nuts?
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 07:07 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Roe vs Wade" now...
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 07:10 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...as well as just 'random'. The way he thinks is just globbing things together is just creeping me out.
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 07:10 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...talking about Supreme Court justices... Obama supports Roe vs Wade, McCain strongly opposed it - no surprises there
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 07:21 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...a long debate on abortion, McCain tried - unsuccesfully - to grossly distort Obama's positions on the issue - Obama had a great
comeback

- Obama is by far the better debater

- McCain probably had the "Joe The Plumber" vote sewn up - maybe.


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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 07:33 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's is actually a real Joe the Plumber. I feel for the guy. He's liable to get swamped by the media who want to ask him that very question.
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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 07:35 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CNN post debate analysis: "We haven't heard so much about plumbers since Nixon..."
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 07:39 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joe the Plumber and Obama Discuss Taxes

Joe is now famous I think.


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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 07:40 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
CNN post debate analysis: "We haven't heard so much about plumbers since Nixon..."

They actually said that?????


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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 07:47 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, it was from Bill Bennett, the Republican commentator.
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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 07:51 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Yeah, it was from Bill Bennett, the Republican commentator.

LOL


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West Coast Greeny
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posted 15 October 2008 08:05 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
He's going to talk about Bill Ayers, planetariums and communism.

I think you're 2 1/2 for 3.


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West Coast Greeny
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posted 15 October 2008 08:10 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
McCain was running the "wealth distribution" argument for a good long while, which I thought would play well with "centrist" Americans. But the polls just came in, and according to that, Obama slammed McCain once again. I think 61-38. Favourability numbers are in the high-60s for Obama, mid-40s for McCain.

Unless Obama really is a terrorist, and McCain can prove it, this election is OVER.


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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 08:13 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm surprised Obama didn't attack back when McCain raised Obama's so-called spending on "$3million for an overhead projector in his district" - I guess Obama knows everyone realizes McCain is full of shit on this issue and just ignored it.

Did anyone besides me notice McCain bulging out his eyes a lot tonight? Especially after Obama caught him a lie.


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West Coast Greeny
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posted 15 October 2008 08:17 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I'm surprised Obama didn't attack back when McCain raised Obama's so-called spending on "$3million for an overhead projector in his district" - I guess Obama knows everyone realizes McCain is full of shit on this issue and just ignored it.

Did anyone besides me notice McCain bulging out his eyes a lot tonight? Especially after Obama caught him a lie.


I was listening to the debate while doing homework. I think that's why I thought the debate was closer than most people did. But I did look up long enough to hear...

"Here's Joe's fine: ZERO"
McCain: "Zero?"

He nearly fell out of his chair. I think that the whole cool calm collected vs. angry old man contrast contributed alot to McCain's defeat.


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500_Apples
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posted 15 October 2008 08:21 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This was an irratating debate:

- We get the point about Joe the plumber. Should he pay taxes when he fixes toilets for $250, 000/year or not? We know their stands.

- One guy is against the "proabortion" movement and trivialized the exception of mother's health, the other guy says an abortion is between a woman, her doctor, her family and her religious guides or something like that.

- McCain is still bitter about the Adler planetarium.

****

Overall though, Obama is a really good debater. He responds to all of McCain's points, he seems to be aware of all of them and he deconstructs them in a very calm and rational manner. McCain looked like a rejected smartass.


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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 08:23 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I'm surprised Obama didn't attack back when McCain raised Obama's so-called spending on "$3million for an overhead projector in his district" - I guess Obama knows everyone realizes McCain is full of shit on this issue and just ignored it.

Did anyone besides me notice McCain bulging out his eyes a lot tonight? Especially after Obama caught him a lie.


Yeah and he blinks a whole heck of a lot too. It got rather distracting.

Obama seems to ignore a lot of things that he technically could call McCain on. He seems to be quite good at picking and choosing the important ones or the ones that will have the most impact.


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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 08:25 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by West Coast Greeny:
"Here's Joe's fine: ZERO"
McCain: "Zero?"

He nearly fell out of his chair.


I saw that too - it was hilarious.


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West Coast Greeny
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posted 15 October 2008 08:25 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, I just read the dialogue between Joe the plumber and Obama, and I thought Obama gave an excellent response.
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500_Apples
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posted 15 October 2008 08:26 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by West Coast Greeny:

I think you're 2 1/2 for 3.


WOOHOO !!!!!


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West Coast Greeny
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posted 15 October 2008 08:27 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh my god. More poll numbers, and Obama seems to be crushing McCain in every catagory. His worst subject (I thought) was taxes, and he won... by 15 points.

Fork. Election. Done.

Well, I need to get back to homework.

[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Greeny ]


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ElizaQ
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posted 15 October 2008 08:35 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by West Coast Greeny:
I think that the whole cool calm collected vs. angry old man contrast contributed alot to McCain's defeat.[/QB]

I think that you are correct. Obama seems to know what people are looking for right now. McCain was right at the beginning is that people are angry, they are upset and are worried. What he doesn't get is that people don't seem to want a person in charge that is angry and aggressive.

During the first debate I followed along on a strongly pro-obama supporter board and during the whole thing they were upset that Obama wasn't more aggressive, that he didn't attack McCain back, that he missed so many opportunities to land a sucker punch. They overall thought he lost until the polls from the independents and undecideds started coming in that showed otherwise.
Obama seems to know exactly who he is speaking to in these debates, not the political geeks or his diehard base but the average person.

McCain on the other hand doesn't seem to get it. There has been more then enough analysis that his aggressive attack style just doesn't play well with the voters that he needs. He didn't learn, or was incapable of learning. It's still the playbook fro previous elections. His base seems to love what he did tonight, in their eyes he stuck it to Obama.
The polls that are coming in though indicate that for the average person. Not so much.


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Boom Boom
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posted 15 October 2008 08:57 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
McCain's on Letterman tomorrow night.
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Ken Burch
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posted 15 October 2008 09:09 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:
Well look Boom Boom you have to dig down into the amazing and intelligent subliminal messaging that McCain is putting out here. "Joe Six Pack" is now "Joe the Plumber" He got a job!

And apparently Joe's quit drinking as well.
(Or switched to whiskey.)


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Polly Brandybuck
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posted 15 October 2008 10:21 PM      Profile for Polly Brandybuck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At about 51 minutes, McCain has a big Palin-moment when he gets almost incoherent on the topic of Columbia. I had to back it up twice to figure out what he was talking about.
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Doug
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posted 16 October 2008 01:09 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:

McCain on the other hand doesn't seem to get it. There has been more then enough analysis that his aggressive attack style just doesn't play well with the voters that he needs.

That's been his problem all campaign. Playing to the Republican base rather than to the swing voters that could make him President.


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ElizaQ
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posted 16 October 2008 06:10 AM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joe the Plumber. Who is this mysterious man? Many pundits last night said he won the debate. Some people are saying he may have been a GOP plant as part of a strategy, his brother is a major contributer to an RNC PAC for instance.

Some say he's just an average guy, an undecided voter who just had a question and is now caught in a whirlwind of crazy electioneering, a potential three week icon for the McCain campaign. He was interviewed many times last night and declined to say who he was going to vote for but indications look like he's leaning away from Obama. He seems to have the Repub talking points down quite pat on issues and on CBS for instance he compared Obama to Sammy Davis JR.

Not sure that it matters so much though because if true here is the really funny part... Joe the Plumber may not even be registered to vote and if he truly is just a guy from Toledo Ohio, it's to late to register.

Say it ain't so Joe? What's going on?

The mystery continues...

lol

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]


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Willowdale Wizard
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posted 16 October 2008 06:15 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Guess which union was the first to endorse Obama?
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ElizaQ
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posted 16 October 2008 06:33 AM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well I just watched a clip of an interview where Joe called Obama a socialist. I think it's pretty clear what X he's going to mark. If he's can actually mark an X. He says he can, that he is registered. People are still trying to find out where exactly.

It's pretty funny to watch all the 'Joe the Plumber' questions and digging that's going on all over the net right now.

Willowdale wizard: Yeah I read about that last evening. It's very ironic.


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 16 October 2008 07:05 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The bottom line from the three debates is that I don't think the American public is going to give the nuclear codes to someone who comes across as cranky/angry like McCain.
From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 16 October 2008 07:09 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CNN just did an interview with Joe Wurzerburger (Joe the Plumber) who said it's surreal to see his name on national TV. Then, interviewed some young folks who said they weren't going to vote for either McCain or Obama, but instead write in "Joe the Plumber" on their ballots.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 16 October 2008 07:15 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Joe the Plumber" could get mre votes than Nader if the trend starts to pick up.
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Boom Boom
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posted 16 October 2008 07:17 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CNN: Independent voters give Obama 57% to McCain's 31% as winner of the debate.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 16 October 2008 07:20 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:

He was interviewed many times last night and declined to say who he was going to vote for but indications look like he's leaning away from Obama. He seems to have the Repub talking points down quite pat on issues and on CBS for instance he compared Obama to Sammy Davis JR.


[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]



I'm sure he won't vote for Obama because he's afraid of being "punished" by having to pay a few percent more of his income above $250,000 in taxes. Some average guy.


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Boom Boom
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posted 16 October 2008 07:26 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
McCain said he's not President Bush, but he voted with Bush 95% of the time.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 16 October 2008 07:32 AM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by josh:


I'm sure he won't vote for Obama because he's afraid of being "punished" by having to pay a few percent more of his income above $250,000 in taxes. Some average guy.


I think that's where his "Obama's Plan is "socialist" comes from. To those on the ' far right' in the US it's perceived that being deathly afraid of anything that remotely speaks of 'socialism' is what the 'average' person thinks and 'if only people would hear understand that's what these policies are then McCain would win by a landslide'.

"Spreading the wealth" is another evil phrase. Hence why McCain brought it up.


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 16 October 2008 07:33 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Obama's campaign has already dealt with McCain's "you should have run in 2004" claim.

James Fallows, in the Atlantic, had some good conclusions:

quote:
In general-election debates, it's a losing strategy to "rally the base." That's what your own campaign events, and your fund-raisers, and your targeted ads, and your running mate are for. Especially by the time of the second and third debates, the job is to "rally the center." That's where most of remaining persuadable and undecided voters are.

Everything about Barack Obama's approach to this debate, and all debates, was consistent with this reality. Almost nothing about John McCain's approach was:

- Obama took every opportunity to steer questions back from campaign tactics to governing issues. ("It's been a tough campaign, and we have hurt feelings, but what really matters is avoiding four more years of...." All quotes here are from memory and therefore approximate, but true to the general spirit.)

- He took every opportunity to talk about "working together" to deal with those issues, ("The reality is, it's going to take Republicans and Democrats working together.")

- He took nearly every opportunity to suggest encompassing rather than polarizing approaches to the substance of those issues. ("Do we want to reduce the cost of health care or expand the coverage? We've got to do both...")

- He took every opportunity to identify areas where he and John McCain actually agreed on approaches. ("I agree with John..." might have seemed an over-used trope in the first debate. This time, very selectively, it helped in the control-the-center strategy.)

- He took most opportunities to remain calm, to stay above the fray, to seem amused rather than frazzled, not to take personal offense. As mentioned earlier, he was not quite as perfectly self-contained as in earlier performances. But compared with McCain, he was the one -- in a good sense -- who had taken Prozac, while McCain seemed to be in a 'roid rage. And because of this general self-possession -- realizing, for instance, that there was only upside in being gracious about Sarah Palin -- when he decided to bear down, as in the breathtaking "At your running mate's rallies, when someone mentions my name they say 'Terrorist' and 'Kill him,'" it was the more powerful.

If you go down the same list, you can see that McCain did just about the opposite on every one of the counts.

His most effective rhetorical line was that if Obama wanted to run against President Bush, he could have done so four years ago. (For that matter, so could McCain.)

But that was undercut, according to the logic above, by emphasizing tactics over issues, by emphasizing partisan division over conciliation, by body-language contempt for his opponent, and by a demeanor that reinforced the short-tempered and dyspeptic impression from the previous debates.



From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 16 October 2008 08:18 AM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
McCain said he's not President Bush, but he voted with Bush 95% of the time.

Yep he did and right on cue the Dem campaign released an ad pointing that out. McCain couldn't have given them a better bit of film to use.

The transcript

quote:
Obama: "I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message."

*shows the debate clip* McCain: "Senator Obama, I'm not President Bush."

Narrator: "No, but you did vote with Bush 90% of the time. Tax breaks for big corporations and the wealth but almost nothing for the middle class - same as Bush. Keep spending $10 billion a month in Iraq while our economy struggles - same as Bush. You may not be George Bush but..."

McCain: "I voted with the President over 90% of the time, even higher than a lot of my republican colleagues."



From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 16 October 2008 08:27 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.


There you have it.


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500_Apples
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posted 16 October 2008 08:47 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Btw McCain talked a lot about Canada. He said we threatened to sell our oil to China if the USA would renegotiate NAFTA. Is this true? I don't recall that happening.

I think McCain also talked about our health care system.


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Boom Boom
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posted 16 October 2008 08:51 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
Btw McCain talked a lot about Canada. He said we threatened to sell our oil to China if the USA would renegotiate NAFTA. Is this true? I don't recall that happening.

He raised it as a possibility, because China was interested in investing in the oil sands, and a pipeline to the west coast. I don't know what happened, maybe Harper put the kibosh on these ideas?


quote:
I think McCain also talked about our health care system.


Yes, but not in a favourable light. He said if we follow Obama's plans for health care reform, we'd (the USA) end up like Canada and England.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 16 October 2008 09:20 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Truthdig unearths video source of McCain's best debate ideas.
Video

From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 16 October 2008 09:55 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
priceless photo
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 16 October 2008 10:06 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why am I reminded of Mr Burns?
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Doug
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posted 16 October 2008 12:43 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Why am I reminded of Mr Burns?

Exxcelllent!


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 16 October 2008 01:09 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's harsh. McCain pulled a common "walking the wrong way to get offstage" mistake, made a grimace about his own mistake, and it gets captured and distributed to every corner of the internet.

McCain has a bad plan, a bad record, and bad intentions; will finish the job of destroying the US economy; wants a love-in with Colombian dictators; wants to extend the endless war into Iran, North Korea, and maybe Venezuela; has Bible Spice as his running mate. Yet this picture is going to lose him more votes than any of his foolish positions and decisions.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic2
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posted 16 October 2008 01:18 PM      Profile for Polunatic2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Looks like Joe the Plumber may be related to Charles Keating's son in law, Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jr., who did time along with Charlie for the S&L swindle that McCain encouraged & benefited from.

NYT 1993 article

Joe's not a registered plumber in Ohio

One thing that Obama didn't dare challenge last night was McCain's "soldier to school" plan where returning soldiers could become teachers without having to go through all the rigamarole of getting a teachers certificate. So on the one hand, McCain wants to fire bad teachers, on the other, he wants to militarize the classrooms using unqualified teachers. But who can argue with that. They're got to support their troops.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Polunatic2 ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 16 October 2008 02:19 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Factoid of the Day. Joe the Plumber has now done more press conferences then Sarah Palin
From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 16 October 2008 05:21 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Also a tax deadbeat
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 17 October 2008 04:43 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
John McCain said it. Right out loud in the third debate.

“Obviously, we had to take Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait or it would've threatened the Middle Eastern oil supply.”

The first gulf war was about defending access to oil after all. McCain reiterated the theme later on, as he has in past debates, when he said that we need to “eliminate our dependence on the places in the world that harm our national security.”

What he didn’t say out loud is that the current war, the one in Iraq, is also about defending access to oil and other energy resources. This war has cost us $656 billion and counting. Our country has a long history of using military intervention to secure energy resources.

Indeed, according the latest report by the National Priorities Project (NPP), the US will spend around $100 billion of our defense budget this year alone defending access to fossil fuels worldwide. That figure does not include what is spent on the Iraq War, which, when included, will add an additional $100 billion.

That’s $200 billion dollars that could be spent, in one year alone, on alternative energy resources and infrastructure, on renewable energy subsidies that will help create green collar jobs for working America. - Source



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 24 October 2008 08:25 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joe the Plumber? How about Joe the Brother?

excerpt:

Early this week, Sen. John McCain's brother Joe, while in Alexandria, VA, called 911 because he was irritated with traffic. When the operator asked him if he was really calling the emergency line to complain about highway conditions, Joe McCain responded, "F--k you" and hung up.

ETA:

President Jimmy Carter has a brother Billy who caused him a bit of embarrassment. I hope Joe McCain is another "Billy".

[ 24 October 2008: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged

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